It's About The Horse

ErinR76 · Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Posts: 502 Location: Austin TX

I was re-reading one of his books, when I went on facebook and thought what the heck, I'll see if he's on facebook. He was, and I found out he's going to be about 30 minutes from me tomorrow! So I'm going to audit, I can't wait! I'll take notes and report back! Here's an interesting bit from the website about not using cues, but rather energy.

"Energy work and release
Someone asked the very interesting question as to what the release is if you are working
with energy in this way and not using cues as such. Mark said that his feeling was that
because everything is so small already what we would call a release is not necessary
because the nature of this work is that it is in itself a release. You are just running the
same tape over and over, it is a feel of these things happening. He said that there is a
picture in his mind and he can see right through the horse and see the feet moving.
“When I picture those feet, I picture them going some place different, a little longer
stride or a different direction. Before long that picture does not exist as you can just feel
it and it just happens. The release is not really a release per say for me but when I want
to change something I may change in my core.”
Mark asked me what I felt about this. I said that I was thinking about this issue a little
earlier as my horse had been responding to my attempts at lengthening the stride and I
really wanted to thank her for this effort. I had tried switching off the tape to give her a
break but this didn’t feel right, partly because it then took a while to get the tape up and
running again but also because it just didn’t feel right, like there was a space or we had
got lost or separated. This is really hard to describe, but it fits with what Mark was
saying when he talks about playing his tape all the time.
I also said that this was not like taking a feel on a rein in a physical way where you may
release when the horse gives to the pressure, this has a totally different quality to it and
does not come into the category of pressure and release. I described it as feeling that
there is no expectation from the request so there is no negative to be released by a
positive. It is just not like that.
Mark said that this sort of connection with a horse is what we are all looking for but it’s
hard to explain and most folk may find it hard to believe or understand. Even if this
level of work is not possible (and Mark said that he truly does believe it is possible) its
good to believe that it is, it is our dream, our goal. Kathleen’s story about Mouse echoed
the same principle. Mark said that it feels as if there is no difference between you and
your horse, its just energy, I don’t think there is a release. The release comes in
the joy of the movement." --Amanda's clinic report from Marks website
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A horse is NOT a large dog that thinks like a person.

retropony · Member Joined: 28 May 2010 Posts: 30 Location: Oregon

Have a great time! Say "hi" to my friends Mark and Shannon from Patti and Thom in Oregon! Shannon is Mark's assistant for these TX clinics. Her and I just spent the weekend together at Legacy of Legends in Las Vegas. My husband and I have ridden with Mark for several years and I just know what he offers the horse and rider will blow your mind! "Less is more" will take on new meaning for you and your horses will love you for it! Have a great time!

bit · Member Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4352 Location: Kansas

Have fun and take notes! Decided to use energy on Bit the other morning when she finished early and made her usual trek over to Shuans bowl to take his breakfast. I had been telling her "no', standing up and redirecting her to the hay bale. I decided to mentally throw up a wall right in front of Shaun, and boy, Bitty stopped short! She tried approaching sideways, and finally gave up and left. I think we talk way too much, move too much, think too much. Maybe it's a lot more simple that we let it be.
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"It was once said I should clear my head for one cannot ride a Thoroughbred. Hot they are. And too fast they be. Forever on the fly. But I stayed the course and have no remorse. I love my off the track racehorse!"

retropony · Member Joined: 28 May 2010 Posts: 30 Location: Oregon

ErinR76 · Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Posts: 502 Location: Austin TX

Yeah! I want to really be in communication, instead of operating in mechanical terms such as cueing. It may be years if ever if I get there, but I aim to start learning about it.

Patti and Thom from Oregon say 'HI' to Shannon...got it!

_________________
A horse is NOT a large dog that thinks like a person.

retropony · Member Joined: 28 May 2010 Posts: 30 Location: Oregon

and Mark too, we don't want his feelings hurt!

ElaineW · Member Joined: 03 Feb 2009 Posts: 1464

can't wait to hear what you think Erin!
have a great time!

gaitinalong · Member Joined: 29 Jun 2011 Posts: 81 Location: Tennessee

I have nearly all of Mark Rashid's books. He makes more sense to me than all of "them" put together.

He teaches one how to approach training/handling according to each horse. Not a cookie cutter method that makes each and every horse fit into a square, even if they're not; something that reminds me of how children get taught in school, whether they are special needs or not.

His approach with horses very much resembles the way my granddad taught me.

It doesn't hurt that he looks like the movie actor Sam Elliott either

Have a wonderful time. I hope you can get some pictures but don't bother posting if Mark Rashid isn't in at least one of them

I agree people way overthink working with horses. Instinct and reading the horse are the biggest factors. Some humans are much better at that than others, no matter how hard they try.

Malcolm · Member Joined: 05 Nov 2010 Posts: 130

I have read some of Mark Rashid's work and watched him on Rick Lamb's show. His application of Aikido to horsemanship is impressive. Also, his immersion in Eastern philosophy makes him manage to go on TV without it going to his head and confusing horsemanship with showmanship like so some other media mad ones who let minor stardom on RFDTV puff their egos and put those of us who are not impressed with celebrity right off. Many called Tom Dorrance a Zen master but he did not know what that is while he did talk about the path of least resistance. Mark's embrace of Eastern philosophy makes it easier to put words to this silent language.

Malcolm

Blue Flame · Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:45 am Post subject:

Looking forward to your impressions.

My experience auditing Mark was that he is unlike any other clinician I've read or seen. Very eclectic in his approach - no "system" as such - just lots of little anecdotal pieces of knowledge that seem to get right to the crux of the matter for each horse.

I loved his clinic format as well - individual time with each combo - i.e. eseentially a public private lesson for each rider.

ErinR76 · Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Posts: 502 Location: Austin TX

OK! We spent the morning sitting around in a circle and he talked with us and answered our questions. We were not allowed to ask any questions that started with, "I have this horse....." LOL! No specific horse troubleshooting, in other words. We could ask a general question though. I asked about feeling leads at the trot...he said that the horse will stride longer with one of his front legs at the trot at any given moment (and that it can change from moment to moment), and that whichever stride is longest when you ask for the canter, that'll be the lead they most likely pick up.

He said that horses are not normally dominant sided (left side, or right side) but that we tend to make them that way. He also said that lots of times if a horse is really reluctant to pick up a lead it's usually soreness, due to one or many different factors (tack, rider imbalance, etc).

He told us about aikido and how studying it has helped him in life and with his horsemanship. He said he doesn't identify himself with his aikido or with his horsemanship, but that its just what he does and they sort of blend together. He said he does what he does because he enjoys it and if he doesn't enjoy it, he would change it. More on this later (remind me if I forget to tell you about Evan's question)

We talked about how thoughts transfer, and how we learn by watching and that when we watch, the same parts of our brain fire as if we are actually doing it (whatever 'it' is), its the way we are made and any animal that learns by watching is this way. When we simply THINK about doing something, our body is already firing on a neurological level and preparing our muscles to do that action. So, the horse, being sensitive and intellegent, are capable of picking up on this. We are unaware of this so we think we need to use cues (whether small or big) in order for the horse to understand what we want, when this is really mostly unnecessary. We tend to train it out of ourselves (on a cultural/societal level) and we definitely make our horses 'dull' by screaming at them all the time instead of being perceptive and subtle.

He talked about how you need to first establish a(n energetic) connection (which can also be physical but you should not neglect the energetic connection), then create (or look for) an opening to ask for the movement. He demonstrated this with us auditors and participants. How if he pushed or used a lot of pressure or too fast of pressure we would brace against it and not want to go. I was the brave one that volunteered first. I stood in front of him but facing away from him.

He barely put his hands on my shoulders and told me to move in whichever direction I felt I should go. He'd pick a direction and I'd feel which way to go and go there. He wasn't using pressure or muscle to get it done, but it was very subtle. It really was just like, 'where is the opening for my movement?' and I'd go there.

He'd have us line up (youll see a pic later) and all of us would go. He said he'd ask the third person down the line to move, and we all would go. I don't pretend to understand it all.

One of the exercises he demonstrated, he was in the middle holding hands with a person on each side of him. He'd instruct us to pull against him/away from him off to the side. He'd try to pull us together with a resistant kind of energy/feeling. Then, he'd 'change' his feel/intent/energy, and we'd 'fall in' towards each other (towards the middle) suddenly.

Then we auditors had to pair up (triple up?) and do the same exercise with each other. It was interesting because you had to change your intent and energy, create an opening for the two resisting you to come toward you (the opposite direction than they were currently going), and it couldn't be a sudden energy, or a forcing energy, or a making energy, or the two people on the side would still resist and be 'offended' by the jerking together motion. In our group, the gal in the middle was using too much 'make or force.' We explained to her that it has to be a benign, harmonious intention, and that there had to be a certain degree of 'waiting' for the willingness of the two people on the side, and once she felt the opening, then to make a smooth movement to bring us together.

Am I making any sense?! LOL

So we practiced that until we could get a good result.

Another one, we'd have two people face each other, palms touching barely, and take turns moving each other. Then, One person put one finger on the other person's palm and do it, and thirdly, just touch fingers. So there is still a connection, but its a very small, soft connection, and we feel each other and move wherever the leader was directing. But there has to be a connection, softness, perceptiveness, and willingness. I described it as two willing partners feeling of each other, and it could be very subtle.

One person said, what if you have one side of the connection (one partner) that is NOT willing? And he said, that's what aikido is, its an attacker and a defender, and the defender practices a blending of energies, and directs the energies. He can harness the energy and direct it through the principles of aikido (blending, harmony, softness, flow) even when the other party is 'resistant.'

We talked about how horses are masters of this already, and we have the innate ability to do it already, we just need to allow ourselves to do it. I said, other than enrolling in an aikido class, are there any materials we can study, like books or something? He said anything by George Leonard is good. So I ordered The Way of Aikido.

We talked about bounciness while riding and he said that you have to move in a forward circle with the horse's barrel. Lots of people scoop their seat (driving seat) in the canter, which if you think about it, moves the pelvis in a backward circle. This causes the horse to dip its back, not bring it up rounded.
I'll have to see if I can figure this out, because it made sense logically but I have to feel it to be sure for myself. for me, when I canter, I try to follow the motion of the horse, and it FEELS like I am being moved in a backward circle from what I can remember but it might actually be a forward one. I don't know.
One person asked if a round barreled horse has a different motion than a high withered horse. He said they all move the same, with back legs making a forward circle of energy, barrel making a forward circle of energy, and front legs making a forward circle of energy. The body shapes feel a certain way to the person sitting on, but the movement is still forward circles of energy.

In the afternoon, the first rider was a woman in her late fifties with her haflinger mare she had for five years. She said the mare tried to determine when she quit working, which direction she wanted to go, would dive against the bit, and was generally pretty heavy in the bridle. Mark asked her what her goal was for today, and the gal said she wanted to see if she and the mare were a good match. Here are my notes on the session.
Horse very bracy on the backup. Mark said 'we'll start there because it can affect so many other aspects of riding.' She had a lot of resistance built up in her. She's that way because that's what she's always done and what her handlers have always done. A horse can only do what it knows and experiences. Mark took hold of the reins while rider was mounted and asked horse to back up and soften at the same time. He just walked backwards and held the feel at the point of resistance until the mare's feet came unstuck and she softened in her movement and she quit bracing. More on finding the point of resistance in a minute.

The rider asked himif he was using a lot of pressure once the mare was soft, and he'd show her "no, I'm using this amount of pressure" and I couldn't see, but he probably touched the rider to show her. Then he'd ask the rider to go ahead and walk the horse forward. After some time, the walk was freer and more forward. At first, he asked the rider, "Is that the walk you want?" The rider was not sure how to respond to the question. She'd describe how the walk felt, say 'I guess so' or something that did not answer the question. Mark would ask again, "Is that the walk you want?" She still could not answer the question. She said, "Is this a trick question?!" and laugh. He said, this is very important: YOU have to SUPPLY THE HORSE with three things, always: Speed, direction, and destination. If you are not doing that, the HORSE WILL SUPPLY THEM. So by her not being specific, her horse was offering what IT wanted, and she could only say, "Well, THIS is not what I want."

She had a crop in her hand. She asked if she should use it, Mark said, I don't care what you do, just decide how fast you want the walk to be and do something to get it; don't quit asking until you get it. They'd alternate between asking the mare to back up softly, and then once she did, asking her to move forward. Once they'd really got her soft, though, moving the diagonal pairs of feet together in the backup, and she picked up her feet instead of dragging them one at a time, she was naturally moving more forward with speed.

He had to talk to her about not pulling on the mare. In other words, asking her to backup, if the mare quit bracing for a second and offered softness, the rider's hands would just move backward, pulling the mare again.

Now I will try to describe point of resistance. Take up the reins until you feel a brace or resistance in the horse. Don't pull, just make a connection right at the point of resistance. Wait there, keeping contact but not pulling. Have softness in your core. You don't have softness in your hands; you have it in your core, in your heart, and it naturally comes through in your hands. For me, that means a readiness to give when you feel an opening (some say, a 'give' or a 'try' from the horse). You're ACTIVELY SEEKING harmony. You're offering it, and you're perceptive of the moment it has been received by the other, then they offer it, and you receive it, and the connection deepens or perhaps maybe I should say, improves, or strengthens in quality.

So you're waiting at the point of resistance for a give, then you give. At first the rider was missing the horse's give by keeping pulling on the reins to take up the slack the horse gave, instead of giving back to the horse. He also stressed the importance of not throwing away the reins. Don't throw away the connection you just got with the horse. Soften enough that you're not pulling (when they give or get soft), but not so much that you lose the connection. This applies not only in the backup, but in asking the horse to go forward with softness and connection (as in collection or something).
_________________
A horse is NOT a large dog that thinks like a person.

ErinR76 · Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Posts: 502 Location: Austin TX

For me, I think this is what people are looking for in collection...this connection. I think the horse can only give us this connection of we are doing a good job offering it in the first place. It has to be a certain quality or we just get pulling the horse and he braces. I obviously have some work to do on this, because getting and maintaining this connection between myself and my horse is something I haven't done yet. I've explored it a bit on and off, but knowing there were pieces I didn't have to offer my horse, I haven't explored it too much. I hope I have a little more knowledge now, with which to do so. I would be honored to be able to do this with my horse.

Anyways, Horse number two: Chestnut arab gelding; I didn't catch his age. Mark noticed right away that his hind end didn't have as full a range of motion as it should and commented he may have trouble going up and down hills easily; he might seem disjointed from front to back, or perhaps rush. She confirmed this. He recommended a good chiropractor. He asked her for her goals. She said she feels like she has to nag him; he mouths the bit a lot and roots. He noticed the horse had a thick tongue for a smaller horse. Maybe try a bit with tongue relief. The pair's trainer was there and the rider said to the trainer, "Maybe I should try that bit you bought for me?" and laughed. Mark was like, yeah maybe you should do that!

Mark said lets try working on this backup thing and see if it helps. He noticed right away that the horse wanted to be soft and wanted to find harmony with his rider. He offered several times to take the gelding home with him

It came up that the gelding has lost weight over the last two months. Mark asked if he'd has his teeth worked on. Yes, one month ago. He asked if it was powerfloated. Yes again. He said that using a powerfloat can make the tooth surface too smooth and actually impair grinding of the food.

After working on the backup as in the first horse, the gelding was walking forward much nicer now, quieter in the mouth now that the rider gave him a better feel and boundary (the boundary is wherever your hands are! Be a post! More on that later). His stride in his hind legs lengthened to normal as well.

Our body follows our intent. He had a person stand in front of him facing away from him. He said, look down and think down, then pushed the person's back. the person almost fell down. Then he said,
look up and think up. pushed the person, and they didn't tip at all! Then he said, look down and think up; pushed the person, and the person did not tip at all. Then he said, look up and think down, pushed the person, and the person tipped! So, our bodies always follow our intent.

I can't recall how this translated to this person's lesson exactly, sorry. Maybe it had to do with keeping her hands set where they were, instead of letting the horse drag her hands down whenever he wanted. Just setting her intention to keep her hands where they were.

Back to connection; you create a soft, easily accessible spot for the horse to be connected with you, a comfortable place for him to be, and you just get him to stay there because that's where he is comfortable. Your horse finds the boundary within your hands, not just a physical boundary but the feel you're offering to him, and stays there.

So the rider and arab gelding are feeling of each other pretty good now, and he asks if she's ever done leg yields. She says yes. She demonstrates. He asks is that better than normal, worse than normal, or about normal. She says about normal, pretty good. He says good, now do it again, but this time use what we learned and practiced this morning on each other, on your horse, and do a leg yield without using your leg at all. She laughs. He says, just picture his hind foot landing right under your opposite stirrup. She tries it and the horse does it! He says, now do it again but use just a tiny bit of leg. The horse does it and does it even better.

Next he has her work on transitions. They were sort of choppy; not smooth. After observing this, Mark gave some instruction; Don't think of trot or walk; think of four beat gait and moving up to two beat gait. He'd (mark) tell her (rider) when to make the change in her THOUGHT and then he'd point out the change in the horse when the gelding perceived her thought, and said then is when you ask the horse to do it. Creating an opening...offering a feeling/thought of two beat gait to your horse, and then you move together. Harmony. She put this into practice and was immediately getting soft, almost instant transitions, both up and down.

Later he asked if there were any questions, and I said, so when I want my horse to canter, I shouldn't have to think of moving the hip over and all that, I should just be able to picture a three beat gait on a certain lead, and then ask her to canter, and he was like ideally, yes. I said, do I still have to ask her when her outside hind is coming down, and he said that would be best. I said I can't think as fast as a horse's legs move, and he was like, no, you have to feel it.

So I guess I'll have to spend hours having someone call out to me when my horse's outside hind is coming to the ground so I can feel when to cue my horse for the canter, I guess LOL! Because I don't know how else to learn that feel. This is where i get to whine about I can only ride a couple hours total each week if I'm lucky. Oh well.

So bottom line: think what you want the horse to do first, offer it in your body, then if needed, follow it up with a cue. but always do those first two things in that order. this is how you train a horse to not need any cues; how to get 'cues' 'so light' that you 'can't see them' (because they are literally not there! LOL!)

Horse #3. 3 year old gelding, barrel racing bred. She's known him since he was a baby. He was bottle fed. Has boundary problems (we can see as she talks how the horse steps toward her, and she steps away). She says she just wants to see that he gets a good start and how she can offer him even better from herself to make him better. She wants to barrel race, rope, etc off him and wants him to be well rounded.

First thing is Mark has her dismount and he begins leading the horse. Mark's required boundary is an arms length. If the horse gets too close he brings his arm up and decisively but not emotionally, bumps the horse. The gelding doesn't need much correction here, just two or three times and then he is alert and inquisitively watching Mark and keeping the arms length boundary. then Mark leads him. Mark never starts off going in a straight line forward; its too easy for a horse, esp a young one, to 'think' he is 'pushing' the human forward. So Mark steps sort of doubleing back or off to the side of the horse when beginning to ask the horse to lead. To make it easy for the horse to know when to stop at first, he turns and faces the horse. The horse already knows the boundary so he just stops. Mark then asks us if any of us can see the other thing he's been working on with the horse, other than just how to lead and how to stop. Nobody can. He says, when I turn and face the horse, I want his front feet either even, or I want that foot that just came off the ground at the moment I turned around, to be even with the first foot or behind that foot. Never in front of that foot (that was on the ground at the moment I turned around). The gelding picked that detail up right away, even when we all missed it. This just shows how everything, no matter how small, even something imperceptible to us, means something to the horse.

He asks her to mount up and back the horse. She uses leg to get him to back. He can't stand still after moving forward and being asked to stop...he wants to leak forward again. She asks for the stop and then once his feet stop for a second, she releases the total feel on the reins, then he leaks forward again. Mark points this out, then has her stop him again, this time keep the connection until his whole body has completely stopped, then gently/slowly release the feel on the reins. Mark also asked her to quit using her legs to back him up. This helped too; Mark thought the horse was confusing the leg with go forward since it was being used for both. (I hope I understood/interpreted that correctly!) The backup is also sort of heavy, the gelding is heavy in her hands, and his body is backing up but there isn't much coordination there. Mark comments that the gelding is being MADE to backup, HE is not actually backing himself up. We want to instead teach the horse how to back himself up in a coordinated way, not just for the rider to drag the horse backwards. There is a difference. This is what people mean when they say, 'he doesn't back up very well.'

Mark does the same backing exercise where he takes hold of the reins with the rider still mounted up and teaches the horse, then the rider, softness. Lightness is a response on the outside of the horse; softness comes from the inside of the rider and the horse, because he understands the movement and knows how to do it.

Pretty soon the gelding gets to feeling what it's like to not lean on the bit and be drug backwards, but through the feel Mark is offering him, how to get soft and back himself up. His feet get to moving together (diagonal pairs instead of individual feet dragging backwards).

He learns this quickly. The rider gets good results. If a horse is bracey in the backup or stop, it will carry that brace to every other movement. If it's soft in a movement, it will carry that softness to every other movement. A horse can only do what it knows.

We should notice how we stop our bodies when we are walking by ourselves, on the ground. we simply stop. Our movement to stop our horse while mounted, should consist of no more complexity or motion than when we stop ourselves while walking by ourselves on the ground. Do we jam our feet down and lean backward or sit down/squat down? No? Then we shouldn't do that on the horse. Just stop nice and still and balanced. Once you have this you can build it into a slide stop.

That's it for the notes! Now for the pictures! I didn't get many.
_________________
A horse is NOT a large dog that thinks like a person.

ErinR76 · Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Posts: 502 Location: Austin TX

_________________
A horse is NOT a large dog that thinks like a person.

ErinR76 · Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Posts: 502 Location: Austin TX

doing an exercise

first rider talking to Mark

_________________
A horse is NOT a large dog that thinks like a person.

ErinR76 · Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Posts: 502 Location: Austin TX

Mark helping horse with backup. In the past I've tended to put my role as photographer above my role as observer and I didn't do that this time; I wanted to focus on observing and learning and that's why the pics are so bad! LOL Plus it was freezing and windy so I was huddled to keep warm most of the time!

Second horse/rider pair, red arab gelding.

_________________
A horse is NOT a large dog that thinks like a person.