It's About The Horse

merle · Member Joined: 13 Feb 2009 Posts: 444

I'd love feedback and opinions about a clip of Karen Rohlf riding Monty. She goes between freestyle and finesse with and without a bridle. I'm asking because the wife of a well respected Clinician was very critical of this video.

The points she made were;
1. The rider was unable to do finesse without the bridle.
2. The rider would stop riding when the horse fell apart.
3. The rider did nothing to fix the horse when it fell apart.
4. The rider referred to the piaffe as 'riders weird version of the piaffe'.
5. The wife said that the video showed incorrect finesse, horse falling apart and that either the rider was unaware of her incorrectness or her students were not smart enough to know the difference between good and bad finesse.

Her comments were general, no specific points or references except to the piaffe.

I've seen the video before and reviewed it after the wife's comments. But, what I see is a relaxed flowing horse that flows between freestyle and finesse. I see a horse that is balanced, engaged, relaxed, connected (with or without reins), energetic, impulsion. I do not see one that is falling apart. But, I am interested in hearing what others see in terms of correctness. I am a big fan of Karen Rohlf, I've rode with her and think she is phenomenal. So is my opinion of her preventing me from seeing incorrectness in the video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD7Wpfqd2Vg

ElaineC · Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:08 pm Post subject:

I watched the video, and I think the critic missed a very key word - play. I don't see Karen trying to be perfect, I see her out there having fun, doing what she said she was going to do in the title, which is play with collection.

She wasn't trying to finesse without a bridle, she was playing with collection, not the same thing. What I saw was Karen quit riding when she got what she wanted ie. reward the horse while it was correct, for doing what she wanted correctly.

I agree, the piaffe was a bit bizarre, but it was also not at a good angle, and again I don't think Karen was going for a piaffe, I think she was asking the horse to collect up underneath her and isolating a key piece of the piaffe, not aiming for the entire thing.

I see a rider and a horse having alot of fun, moving in and out of various elements. The rider is rewarding the horse alot, by relaxing (and rewarding) when she got the correct behaviour, instead of pushing through and quitting when the behaviour fell apart, leaving the horse with the wrong picture in its head.

I know what she is saying when she says "falls apart", but again, you have to look at the video for what it is - someone playing with a concept with their horse. Its not an unintentional thing, its deliberate to allow the horse a break at a moment it found correctness. The horse will go back to seek that correctness, in order to get a break.
_________________
Quick Ben - 17.2hh Belgian draft

Bad Apple

peachpie · Member Joined: 14 Feb 2009 Posts: 552

Yep, with Elaine's permission, I would print out her thoughtful answer and your own, too, and give it to the lady in question. Some of the ideas which are important to you may never have occurred to the lady as being part of any equation having to do with horses.

ElaineC · Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 2:40 am Post subject:

I have no issue with that, if its posted on the 'net its pretty much public domain regardless :D I do think she's missing the point of the video though.
_________________
Quick Ben - 17.2hh Belgian draft

Bad Apple

AlythLong · Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:33 am Post subject:

I haven't watched this video - dial up takes too long - but my instant thought was "how do you define finesse". I think Pat once described it as "riding with contact". But I think it is more than that - though you can have contact with the mouth via a bit, or the nose via a rope halter or the neck via a savvy string. So how would you have "contact" bridless? However we have seen that concentrated precise movements are perfectly possible bridleless as long as the partnership is good and the rider knows what he/she is doing.

So what are your thoughts?

Alyth

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9013

I have watched that video several times. If the critic was looking for a precise competition dressage ride, then she may have valid points. I think by "falling apart" she means out of rigid collection. I would think she'd make the same comments with Hempfling's (or anybody's) bridleless riding.

Personally I prefer seeing a horse perform like this, rather then tightly held in and every foot moving to a specific cue.

My guess is the woman is from the German school of dressage and is a bit of a drill Sergeant, more concerned with the performance then the horse.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

merle · Member Joined: 13 Feb 2009 Posts: 444

Thank you for all of the thoughtful posts. All of this has made me reflective on my PNH journey.

The first time I saw Karen Rohlf ride was in Ocala Florida about 4 years ago. KR was giving a demo at one of the tour stops. This was just a few months after my 110% PNH, assessing original Level 3, horse came at me with teeth then kicked the snout out of me.

After that incident I had contacted PNH (instructors, ISC, faculty, letters, emails) seeking assistance and guidance. Needless to say, I did not get help.

It was a very eye opening experience, the PNH rose colored glasses quickly came off. Initially I was bitter toward PNH and anything PNH. Unfortunately this bitterness influenced my opinion of KR.

When I first saw KR, it was through bitter eyes. When I watched KR I was critical of her riding, of her horse's quality of movements, of her correctness. Once I was able to let go of the bitterness I was able to see KR with fresh eyes.

Now I cannot believe that I was critical of the demo. she gave. She is truly phenomenal.

The wife seems to be in a similar state of mind as I was 4 years ago. It's fascinating how our perceptions are significantly influenced by our mind set, by our emotions. It really underscores the concept of 'your perception is your reality'. What a great, eye opening experience.

Chablis · Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:01 am Post subject:

This is actually a very nice thread.

I didn't see Karen trying for perfection nor saying what she was showing was the end product, simply that she and Monty were 'playing with collection', with and without a bridle.

I interpreted 'playing' in the context of experimentation?

I have never understood why some people will only accept something may be worthwhile if it is the end product? This always confuses me.
_________________
Please support Equine Victims of Abuse/Neglect by supporting Quest Equine Welfare in rehabilitating these amazing horses.

http://questequinewelfare.org/

peachpie · Member Joined: 14 Feb 2009 Posts: 552

Chablis, I agree. Heck, it wasn't too long ago that the "best" was successfully dragging a log across the farm, letting children slide off your rump or ride them double & cross the creek - I think horses are treated like motorcycles now. Performance horses. Is there no end to human ego?

happycat · Member Joined: 03 Feb 2009 Posts: 370

TTFN

havingfun · Member Joined: 08 Mar 2009 Posts: 48

What I like about Karen is her ability to help me understand how dressage benefits both my horse and myself. I don't understand biomechanical concepts well and am extremely clumsy. Videos that demonstrate the in-between moves through play help me see the how and why. I am not physically capable of dressage but am really benefiting from playing around with the concepts. Lately I have been experimenting with placing different parts of my body in different positions while riding to find my own balance. My poor horse has been so patient with my clumsiness for so many years it's the least I can do for her. Karen has found a wonderful niche market.

thelmanelle · Member Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Posts: 3246

I love watching Karen and Monty. It's beautiful. Having come from endurance, taking three day event lessons prior to PNH...then, coming away with the mix of the two in me, I went back into dressage lessons.

Good old-fashioned ones. I would love to be able to ride like her, but I have so many horses and do so many variety of things that time does not allow me to do that alone.

I admire her, but I agree with what Happycat says about collection and contact. There may be a initial time where the pressure is more than I would like, but when I get the drop through suppling quicker then, there is the reward of the release. She has to get the hind legs under the build and strengthen her back. The neck is coming along so much better as time goes on...but, it is hot so we get to business fairly quickly with the slow suppling and then, get some nice trot in collection and canter in collection both ways and then, drop to the buckle for stretching and cooling down.

So the reward is pretty quick in this weather.

Karen has always been a lovely rider whether she showed dressage or went natural dressage. She certainly is classy.

We never stop learning.