It's About The Horse

karmikacres · Member Joined: 14 Feb 2009 Posts: 1180

More soon, but just wanted to throw out a quick Buck is all of that and a bag of chips.

Parelli has the concepts, but nothing close the finished product. Buck is 100% correct that PNH riding is causing lame horses.

4 days with Buck was more valuable than the last 5 years with PNH....

Oh, we held our own, so all of the Parelli stuff is not useless, but it does have some really big shortcomings.

The facility in Bay Harbor Michigan is the nicest I have ever seen. Really nice folks also.

Mike

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I guess sometimes, on the hopeful path to glory, we get sidetracked and find something better instead.

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9013

Cool. Can't wait to hear more. I think Buck is a lot like learning dressage, only western! LOL

I had no idea you guys wanted to become ropers..beter watch it, the ones I know are addicted.

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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9013

cynthia walter · Member Joined: 04 Aug 2010 Posts: 19

How is PNH causung lame horse and can you please explain. Thanks

cynthia peterson · Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:59 pm Post subject:

Mike and Karen, love the pics! And do tell us more!

After going to a Buck clinic this month I so agree! Buck is like being in the College Class with the Professor that wrote the book on the Subject. It only made Parelli seem more "lesser" in every way possible. Not that Pat didn;t get some of the concepts Buck was taught by Tom & Ray. But Buck was the their "chosen" student, the one they spent the time on b/c they seen the talent and mind Buck had. What Pat may have learned from them, he sometimes didn't get right, and then Linda put her spin on it (many times all wrong)

Seeing Buck in a clinic was so much more then his DVDs. He has the best seat of anyone I have ever seen. There were quite a few Parelli students at my Buck Clinic too, and the flaws in Parelli could be seen a mile away. Buck certainly mentioned some things he didn't like about Parelli without mentioning the Parelli name. Like my Mom said, if you play the game, you get the name. And Parelli sure has "the name" on certain things. Buck isn't the only one pointing these things out.

Let me point out Mike and Karen are not just somebody who "played" at Parelli. They put a lot of money and time in Parelli, more then most people. It's not like they don't know a thing or two about the difference between Buck and Pat, because they have done the work to find out.

karmikacres · Member Joined: 14 Feb 2009 Posts: 1180

First and foremost, the amount of freestyle riding and groundwork PNH encourages is just devastating to the horse. Buck starts collection within the first few rides on a colt. His groundwork also focuses on finding a soft feel.

Parelli's concept of flexion is off the mark also, as it focuses entirely on vertical flexion and makes no reference to elevating the poll to unlock the shoulders. I believe this is where all the rotated shoulders in Parelli land have come from, but they will sell you a saddle and pad to fix it.

They have also really screwed us up by riding in rope halters and hackamores. It is just about impossible to get correct lateral flexion in these devices, it really takes a snaffle to do it right. The head must be elevated, and remain vertical on both planes of rotation. This is where pnh has really let us down, The nose must not just come around for flexion. Pulling from underneath, as in a halter, encourages twist, not proper rotation. They will sell you a cradle bridle to fix this.

Don't even get me started on the rein positions. Needles to say, they are close, but not entirely effective.

Buck starts out teaching very advanced things right off the bat. PNH has dumbed horsemanship down to the point of being totally ineffective.
Pat appears to have been around the masters enough to get the concepts, but not the finish.

Pat was definitely not a chosen student of Tom or Ray, and is not respected at all by the current master horsemen.

I got engagement from Yonex on the second day of the clinic that I have been trying to find for the last 7 years with Parelli. That is enough proof for me.

Dr. Deb says the main reason we ride is to gymnasticize the horse. Anything else is promoting lameness.

Mike
_________________
I guess sometimes, on the hopeful path to glory, we get sidetracked and find something better instead.

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9013

I don't think anyone is questioning that Buck is a next step beyond Parelli for people who want 'Advanced Western' or have a working ranch horse. No one is questioning Buck's expertise in this area, or Mike and Karen's obvious loyalty.

I do question that statement about lameness. How does PNH make horses lame? Why PNH and not other NH clinician methods? What exactly makes them lame?

There are over 22,000 horses trained in PNH. That is a lot of evidence one way or the other. I don't believe I've seen what Buck is talking about, and so I have to wonder.

I imagine whatever the answers to those questions are, then I'd probably have to disagree. I can't think of anything PNH teaches that CAUSES lameness. Now, if Buck had stated that PNH doesn't teach people to move their horses in a bio-mechanically correct frame early enough, or if he stated that time spent Circling could better be spent working the horse in frame, then I could see his point, even if I didn't change what I do or don't do with my horses.

But "lame"?? No.

My personal belief is "each to their own." If people want to WORK their horse all the time, direct every step, then that is fine for them and their horse. If people want to PLAY with their horse, maybe never even get on the horse if they don't want to (who rides Minis?), that is fine too.

There is no reason for one school of horsemanship to degenerate another. It really lowers my opinion of clinicians who do this.

You know what is sad, is that while these egos fight over which is better, millions of horses suffer because MOST riders don't do ANY improvement. They don't study, they don't work with their horses, they just get on and ride - with big honking bits, ill fitting saddles, spurs to go, and jerks to stop.

If they really cared about horses they'd quit fighting over students and go out and find ways to reach the non-students.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9013

Buck and Dr. Deb are welcome to their opinions, but I think I'll still ride all my endless hours trail riding FREESTYLE because it is more comfortable for my horse then making them hold their head in and up and be collected for hours on end. You know, when I force Rosie into "frame" for dressage, she spends 10 minutes shaking her head to readjust her neck and get it relaxed again. My chiropractor pointed this out to me, and I had no idea I was HURTING her by making her hold her head in!

You know I lived on a working ranch, my old horse was ridden western "Freestyle" for 25 years, thousands of miles. She is buried in my back yard. The only times in all those years she was lame were after stepping on a nail and then after getting bit by a pig.

I find statements like those pretty irresponsible in the face of so much evidence to the contrary. Makes me think a lot less of both of them.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9013

And just to clarify, I'm not saying working the horse in collection or doing proper flexing is wrong, or isn't good for the horse. Or that Dr. Deb and Buck methods don't work or that they aren't the best at what they do.

I'm just saying that riding in correct frame ONLY all the time is not good for the horse either...unless you only ride an hour a day exercising the horse. Can you imagine being forced into "perfect posture" all day long?

I also don't think freestyle is bad for horses or makes them lame UNLESS they have a pretty poor rider. I'm sorry, but I ride with HUNDREDS of horses in BCHU and I see ALL freestyle and no lameness, except for maybe some people who seem determined to ride barefoot over rocks regardless of if their horse has the feet for it or not.

Sorry, I just don't believe PNH makes horses lame.
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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

becdubie · Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:26 pm Post subject:

Very good observations, and thanks for your input Carol, I was wondering how PNH riding caused lameness.

ya know I audited a RichardWinters clinic last weekend and sort of come away thinking...geeze....PNH doesn't push their students into more advanced stuff like he did at his clinc, at first thinking that was a flaw in the PNH clinics I attended. But after I put some thought into it and read more of RW's book I realized that RW's goal is to produce reined cow horses and win competitions. The difference in his clinic and the Thompson PNH clinics I've attended is that RW did not really take into consideration each riders aspirations...he taught them all the same and did not consider really what they wanted out of their relationship with their horse...in fact he didn't really consider the horse much at all, just in what the rider should get from the horse.
So my point is that I think the draw to specific clinicians will depend on what the student is wanting to accomplish. I remain thankful to PNH for all I learned and how nice my relationship is with my horses to this day. I probably would not still have Rusty, let alone be riding him if I did not find a way to help him become more confident. Parelli taught us that.
I for one will probably never want to ride collected...freestyle is my style in pretty much everything I do. I don't want to micromanage or be micromanaged. I grew up freestyle trail riding and not one of our horses were lame.
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-Becky
There is more than one right way!

karmikacres · Member Joined: 14 Feb 2009 Posts: 1180

First, their concept of collection is wrong, it does not focus on elevation. Second, they need to be doing more collection earlier on.

How many of those horses you ride freestyle with have you seen trot in a small circle?

Mike
_________________
I guess sometimes, on the hopeful path to glory, we get sidetracked and find something better instead.

karmikacres · Member Joined: 14 Feb 2009 Posts: 1180

becdubie · Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:43 pm Post subject:

I've always wondered, and since I don't compete, have never done dressage etc.....Is there another reason to "collect" my horse other than having him look a specific way to be judged in a competition?

Please don't think I'm putting down anyone who wants to compete, that is certianly not my intent. In fact I love to watch jumping, eventing, dressage and I love how a western pleasure horse looks in competition. I'm just wondering...is there another reason to have my horse trot in small circles? (well other than if I need to get him out of a RB situation or something along that line).
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-Becky
There is more than one right way!

karmikacres · Member Joined: 14 Feb 2009 Posts: 1180

Buck doesn't single Parelli out by saying THEY are making all their horses lame. I don't don't think Mike is suggesting you ride your horse in collection 100% of the time. The point is when you do - do it correctly. Parelli didn't get us there.

Carol, you clearly have your ideas and loyalties too. I'm glad you don't have any lame horses. Maybe we didn't "get" what Pat was trying to teach but we are firm believers that if we had known what we know now we would have left Parelli a LONG time ago and not looked back.

Karen
_________________
I guess sometimes, on the hopeful path to glory, we get sidetracked and find something better instead.

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9013