It's About The Horse

mariab · Member Joined: 17 Feb 2009 Posts: 26 Location: Ireland

Hi guys have not been on in ages, but need some advice on treating Cushings a friend of mines 17 y.o horse has just been diagnosed and she is not to keen about using medication if can be avoided, the only thing she has come up with goggling is Chaste berries as an alternative as it aff hormones and if it was brought on by a growth on pituitaty gland it might work but she does not know, so I know some of you have horses with cushings what do you do and others any suggestions please?

Maria
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PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9014

She can try Chasteberry Juice for a few months, test the ACTH and see if she's helping her horse. I tried it last year on my IR and Cushings horses (I have one of each) and didn't see any results.

I just watched a documentary on Cushings and the Pituitary Gland. According to current research the only way to improve the dopamine uptake is with Pergolide. They recommend catching the disease early and treating aggressively. You can monitor the ACTH levels, but know that horses are subject to seasonal changes in it anyway. To actually test it they recommend late spring/early summer and doing it annually.

Horses without Cushings will test high in ACTH in the fall and winter.
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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

mariab · Member Joined: 17 Feb 2009 Posts: 26 Location: Ireland

Thanks Carol willl relay information
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PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9014

I thought I'd bump this thread up again. I am dealing with Cushings in Zar again. She got laminitis this fall and the vet I have for her says this is not unusual for metabolic issues to 'bloom' in the fall. Apparently hormones really change a lot in the fall.

She went severely laminitic almost instantly. I shod her and started working her for fall riding and within three days she was dead lame. It was touch/go trying to get her stable...one vet had me put her on Thyro-L, another on Metformin...finally got her on a high dose of Pergolide and she has turned the corner. Is moving 95% normally right now. Luckily her x-rays look good, minimal rotation, correctable with trimming. Hopefully she'll be rideable by spring, but I'll be handwalking her now. Just wish her and Bien didn't think they needed to kill each other - both need to be hand walked.
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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

gaitinalong · Member Joined: 29 Jun 2011 Posts: 81 Location: Tennessee

My friend's 23 yr old Paso Fino has been Cushings & IR for four years.

She had treated him with Chastetree the first few years and it seemed to work ok, along with strict diet, a grazing muzzle, and being in a dry lot part time.

In the Fall of 2010 he had his first major founder issue - all four hooves.

He's had one abscess after another since. He is still recouperating from an abscess that literally put him down on the ground for somewhere between 48 - 72 hours. He was in so much pain he was relieving himself while lying down.

Naturally this all happened after close of business on Friday -- meaning try and get the vet that treats this horse. She was giving her horse until Monday morning; already preparing for the worst for her BFF of many many years.

Wonder of wonders he stood up sometime that Sunday, albeit really lame on that abscessed hind leg. He's still hanging in there but it's iffy if he'll make it thru the winter.

I said all that to say she HAD to put this horse on Pergolide when he went lame in all fours in the Fall of 2010. It was the lowest dosage; that dose was doubled this September.

I am acquainted with another lady in Oregon whose horse was recently diagnosed with Cushings. She does not want to put it on Pergolide and is currently treating it with Chastetree and Chia seeds.

So far so good but I see a pattern and that pattern appears to be:

If the cushings horse is diagnosed soon enough, the herbs do help but there will reach a point where the owner evidently has to put the horse on Pergolide to save its life.

What I am not sure of is if the horse is helped by staying on the chastetree once it goes on Pergolide.

I have two horses with metabolic issues. One is insulin resistant and the other has Equine Metabolic Syndrome.

The EMS more closely resembles cushings in that there's muscle waste involved. I am successfully treating both horses with herbs, strict diet and grazing muzzles, but I hold my breath every spring that I might see signs of cushings in the EMS horse. That will mean I have no choice but to put him on Pergolide as it seems the herbs can only do so much helping cushings horses before they have to go on drugs.

I hope this helps

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9014

Thanks.

I tried Chastetree berry a few years ago, on her and my IR mare. I was checking blood then, and her ACTH went up. She was not laminitic and her only symptoms were thick hair and lethargy in the heat. This fall she went laminitic so fast she blew me away. No warning, it was instantly dead lame. She never got where she was laying down, but was too sore to move - at all. I had to feed her and water her in place. She did respond to bute and could move.

I put her on Pergolide 2 years ago and saw no difference. Her new vet says the dosage was probably too low, and I was using powder then, which oxidizes so fast, it is only effective the first month. They've learned a LOT in the past two years!

I put her on a high dose of Thyro-L in 2010 and she shed out instantly and felt great! The sparkle returned to her eye and we had nearly a year of trail riding together. I rode her in the spring, but had to give her the summer off, as she wasn't handling heat well again, even after being body clipped.

Her laminitis was a big surprise. I watch these horses like a hawk, weigh all the hay, and it's all analyzed. I 'thought' I had everything under control. Famous last words.

I will say that I have learned there is no definitive blood test for any of this, so not to kill myself or my pocket book doing a lot. Just the stress of the trip to the vets and getting their blood pulled will send their IR off. (who knew?)

It's been pretty scary. Zar is my favorite horse...not my best trained, but definitely my best teacher. She made me get good - if that makes sense.

Thanks for the input. My other IR mare is Bien. She seems to be straight IR. The bad part is that I keep her so thin she has to be blanketed most of the winter. I wish I had a heated barn for her.

Oh well. We do what we can...
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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Gillies_mom · Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:37 am Post subject:

There's a good cushings support group here:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9014

That is a good group. I joined it about five years ago. They helped me a lot, mostly getting me educated on the disorders, tests, trims, diets, and treatments - which is kind of everything. LOL I have to give Dr. Kellon and others there credit, they've helped a lot of people like me with their horses - at no cost. They've also raised the bar of education about Metabolic problems high enough that it is finally getting attention, studies and research. I've followed these studies for years now. What amazes me most is how LITTLE is actually known about what happens, why, how to test it and how to treat it. It changes with each new study.

My local vet is a ranch vet. He doesn't keep current on these disorders so I've had to manage the horses pretty much myself. He was good about performing whatever test or treatment I wanted. Now I have another vet from Bluffdale, UT who runs a mobile clinic. He DOES stay current and I've finally gotten some local help with them. It certainly makes a difference! He is the one who gave me the PT regime for Rosie and we got her back to full function.

I guess my point is to educate yourself, and then stay open for new research. Also, what works on horse A probably won't work on horse B. And, these things take time to treat and heal. Patience is a hard thing to find when your horse is in pain.
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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

gaitinalong · Member Joined: 29 Jun 2011 Posts: 81 Location: Tennessee

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9014

I thought I'd give an update on Zar who is now fully recovered from her laminitis and ready to ride again...we were cleared by the vet yesterday!!!

When I first had Lyle come see her, it was mid October and I was at my wits end. She had come up lame in mid August right after being shod and starting to work her for fall riding. Everything I tried seemed to be wrong. Nothing worked, not stall rest, not bute, not pads, not Metformin, not Chasteberry again, not high doses of Thyro-L. She was so sore she couldn't move, yet both sets of x-rays (one immediately when she showed laminitis) and the 2nd set in October showed maybe 1-3 degrees rotation, all correctable with trims. I was going crazy trying to get vet help with her, who wouldn't do anything without blood work and not having any luck with blood work. Lyle took one look at her said she was severely Cushoionoid and not to waste my money on blood tests since insulin will elevate just by the stress to the horse getting taken to the vets for the draw. So, he put her on 2 mg/daily Pergolide instantly. Within a few days she was walking and after two weeks was walking with breakover when in deep footing. I started cutting back her bute and Thyro-L as she moved better and better, even on regular ground. By Christmas I had her off other medications and starting to hand walk her. She tolerated this well and the exercise has helped immensely. We've cut her down to 1.5 mg Pergolide and she's been on this two weeks and still doing great, now trotting a mile at liberty each day. She has all of her spirit back, is again the LEAD MARE and **Snorting** at all others to let them know it too.

I was cleared to ride her again and will on the soft ground of spring. We'll see how she tolerates this and cut her Pergolide down gradually to a maintenance dose. We may have to up it again next fall to avoid a repeat.

Anyway, I'm delighted to have my Lead Mare back. Just in time to get Carina going.

She is the horse in my profile picture and I honestly never thought she'd look like that again...but who knows? She is shedding and THAT is a pure miracle.
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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

misstux · Member Joined: 27 Feb 2009 Posts: 944

So glad to hear that you found out the problem and the fix!

Clarissa · Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:44 pm Post subject:

Wow Carol that’s great.

Just a little aside……..Dr John Kohnke (who I’ve asked for help with Sonny twice over last 3yrs) & his vet partner (whose name I don’t know but is from USA I think) developed pergolide around 15yrs ago!
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gaitinalong · Member Joined: 29 Jun 2011 Posts: 81 Location: Tennessee

Terrific news!! hello1

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9014

I thought I'd share this from my vet who is treating Zar:

misstux · Member Joined: 27 Feb 2009 Posts: 944

I am so glad to read this Carol!