It's About The Horse

bit · Member Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4352 Location: Kansas

Waiting for dvd's to arrive, but did get one from giddy up flix to start out with. It's titled "relationship" and looks to be a lot like Carolyn Resnick's training. The dvd is a lot clearer about what to do and how. One difference is in taking territory. Carolyn says never to do it with a shy or a right brained horse, and Cynthia does. Got me wondering, ok so which is it? Do or don't? I do like that Cynthia gets real clear about focusing on the food, and not the horse, when you take territory. It should be taking that bit of ground, hay or grain, and not on moving the horse out of ego or spite, like a dominate horse would do. She also goes into a lot more detail about when and how to invite the horse back in. I did notice, it brought out the dominate in me. Very important to keep my intent and focus on taking food, not taking dignity.
Maybe between the two CR'S, I'll get this liberty work a bit better. I really like it, love doing it all with no tack, although I am forever bound by at least a bb pad. My butt is never going to be horse friendly. Maybe my full seat equisentials, because they have a bit more to them on the butt. lol, I can always go for one of those doughnuts the old people use to sit on. The "geriatric" bb seat.
I'm pretty far along with sharing territory with my guys. I don't have a separate area set up to work with just one horse, so I will probably have to get that done. Hoping that t posts and eletric fence tape will work. It's so hot right now, I need to find somewhere that will be in the shade during our play time. Another vote for an indoor arena.

Heat index is well into the 110's and I am not doing well in the heat. Should break by this weekend, only in the 90's! God I miss California!
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"It was once said I should clear my head for one cannot ride a Thoroughbred. Hot they are. And too fast they be. Forever on the fly. But I stayed the course and have no remorse. I love my off the track racehorse!"

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9014

I do it with Right brained horses, and Buddy, though LBE is RBE with people. RB horses need a Leader. When you move them around you are establishing yourself as a leader. My RBE is much happier to have a leader and it calms him down, and Buddy is only calm with me. I don't think I'd move Zar (RBI) off her food though. She doesn't even like UDT. She DOES like Unconditional Cookies. LOL
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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

bit · Member Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4352 Location: Kansas

The horse I wonder about is Bit, but she does "cleave" to Eclipse, and Eclipse is a very cranky mare with her at times. lol, I was going to use the b word. You know me, I really like to know why, how and when on everything. I will have to watch the dvd again when her husband takes territory from his black stallion.
I watched quite a bit more this morning and am really liking how clear it is on what to do. I love Carolyn Resnick, but I don't think she is as clear with her instructional videos. Considering it's freakin' hot, I'll have a ton of time to watch Cynthia's and burn it into my memory. Thankful I've done a lot of this already. Now I can get a bit more refined with it.
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"It was once said I should clear my head for one cannot ride a Thoroughbred. Hot they are. And too fast they be. Forever on the fly. But I stayed the course and have no remorse. I love my off the track racehorse!"

bit · Member Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4352 Location: Kansas

Went up to say goodnight, once the temps dropped to a cool 92. Gunner and Shaun were the only ones in the shelter. Set up my chair and Gunner rested his face against mine, and Shaun had his butt to the world in the corner. After a while, I picked up my chair and sat next to Shaun. He gave me a few tentitive touches, and fell asleep. It was a nice, peaceful evening, Gunner snoring and Shaun breathing deeply.
Shaunie was itchy on his fly mask, so I took it off and had some good head rub time. Gunner decided he wanted his off, and a scritch. I figured everyone was probably wanted it off, so I headed down the hill to pull masks. Hawk, Eclipse, Bit and I headed down to the well pasture, about 2 acres away. Gunner joined us, but no Shaun. I called and called for him. I felt like that lead mare missing one of her herd. Next thing I know, here he comes! Thundering in only the way a race horse can! It was like that void had been filled, the herd was here! Freakin' dark by then, so I said goodnight.
That little bit of time you spend with them, has a huge impact on the connection you are building. I'm looking forward to temps getting comfortable, so that time can be more. The farrier was out, so I did spend a lot of time with them yesterday, doing feet. They got ear rubs while their feet were getting done, and that made for some nice bonding time, too. Ear rubs went over real well.
Cynthia uses reeds, like Carolyn. Shaun doesn't mind those, and I let him munch a couple I still have tons of them left, can you believe it? You can't get near Shaun with anything that looks like a whip. Poor guy.
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"It was once said I should clear my head for one cannot ride a Thoroughbred. Hot they are. And too fast they be. Forever on the fly. But I stayed the course and have no remorse. I love my off the track racehorse!"

jackspark · Member Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 4473 Location: Missouri

The clearness is what I loved about Cynthia's DVDs. It made all of CRs work understandable, for me, and put me on a much more comfortable path. I am one of those "just spell it out" people; I don't need to be dazzled by the verbage

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Nancy

Flying Monkey Trainer

A journey of a thousand miles must
begin with a single step. Lao Tzu

bit · Member Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4352 Location: Kansas

Exactly! Clear, to the point, good why's and how's. I watched Hawk take territory this morning from Gunner. His sole focus was on that patch of grass in the shade. Getting Gunner gone was just a way to where he wanted to be. Intent and focus is real important with this stuff.
Spent the morning in the shelter with everyone. Hawk on one side, Gunner on the other. Hawk asked for t touch mouth work. Left brainers really like mouth work. Then he laid down right next to me, quickly followed by Gunner. Think I'm getting my little arabian back. Did some leg work on Shuan, and then decided to head back to the house. The whole herd followed me down the hill to go grazing. EVEN SHAUN! I can't imagine NOT having this. I mean, isn't this the point? Isn't this what your dream was when you were a kid?
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"It was once said I should clear my head for one cannot ride a Thoroughbred. Hot they are. And too fast they be. Forever on the fly. But I stayed the course and have no remorse. I love my off the track racehorse!"

Cynthia_Royal · Member Joined: 09 Feb 2011 Posts: 14

A bit of clarification on my approach:

Having found the domestic situation (i.e. gelding and artificial separation) changes the classic herd psychology and structure from that found in the wild horse, I classify horses into 2 basic categories: fearful or confident. They are all socially predisposed by nature of being a nomadic herd animal. Beyond that I've found it makes no difference to the way I handle their training with the exception one's behavior requires shaping to be drawn out more and one to be toned down a bit, with both being rewarded for any successful approximation of those behaviors. In all cases, unwanted behavior is simply ignored outside of the behavior I'm trying to shape.

The fearful horse (including those who could be described as shy, traumatized, or unconfident) needs nurturing to bring out his confidence and trust. I use only positive reward and 'at liberty' relationship building activities with such a horse to encourage his willing participation. Even for the wild mustang or withdrawn for whatever reason domestic horse who wants to stand at the far end of the pasture, I draw him out in my direction, rewarding as little as a look my way or a foot in my direction (even if only by hapenstance), rewarding the effort with a carrot thrown in their direction. By marking EXACTLY what I want (with a consistent sound such as mouth click or saying 'Good' the same each time or a certain hand gesture) I reach straight into the amigdula ensuring quick and permanent learning, rewarding it with something of high value to the horse (such as piece of apple, carrot, etc, noting release is not a high value reward). Through this procedure, a horse quickly develops with me an unshakable trust and rapport. In terms of my existing videos, let me clarify I do not take territory from the fearful horse, as they already respects the human (including me) as predator by nature of our eye set and smell.

~ Cynthia

bit · Member Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4352 Location: Kansas

Thanks Cynthia!
It was the usual trio waiting at the shelter tonight. I had to bring up the d.e., and some supplements on the three wheeler. I also included a bag of baby carrots, fresh from the fridge. It's an adventure, playing with three horses at once. I'm building a fenced play area as soon as Tony gets home on the 1st.
I picked up the wand, left the carrots out of it, and just hung out with everyone. Hawk was trying to get Gunner to play muzzle games. Gunner was trying to bite Hawk. Shuan just tried to stay invisable. Moved the chair over to Shaun, but not so close he felt pressure, and protected him from the boys. Tonight, he tolerated the reed, as long as it kept Hawk and Gunner from picking on him. I figure that's some progress.
Eclipse and Bit showed up, so I broke out the carrots and we all played "hello". Hawk practically giving me high fives, on down to Bit giving me just the slightest of whiskers. Really helps getting smaller with her, and Shaun. Going softer, asking quietly, soft eyes, and lots of scritches.
It was time to head down to graze, and I decided to try some "whoa's". I've been doing this work for a while, (like being stuck in level one Parelli) so I figure what the heck. Gunner and I had done a lot of this last winter, none since. I tried some leading from behind with Hawk, stopped, whhhoooooaa. He did it perfect. Arched his neck, did it pretty, stopped on a dime, and froze. Big celebration. It took Gunner a little longer to get that he isn't to turn and face. I just said, "no" and we tried again. Hawk did it perfect again (yes, I had Gunner on one side and Hawk on the other) and Gunner stopped perfect, too! We had a blast, walking right together, stopping, freezing, and go! Even got it at the trot!
Now the crazy thing, Hawk's never done it before.

I know! Holy crap! Even Gunner stumbled through it at first, but Hawk had it right from the first ask, and that was at leading from behind! God I love this horse! You should have seen his collected, archy, neck! His bright eyes! It was spectacular!
ps. They got the stop. You know, you put up your hands, palms towards the horse and say "wait"? They both got it first time! First time! So big!
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"It was once said I should clear my head for one cannot ride a Thoroughbred. Hot they are. And too fast they be. Forever on the fly. But I stayed the course and have no remorse. I love my off the track racehorse!"

jackspark · Member Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 4473 Location: Missouri

Did Hawk model it, unknown to you, from one of the others, at some other time? I'm a little consumed with this learning thing right now, Karen Pryor is fab!
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Nancy

Flying Monkey Trainer

A journey of a thousand miles must
begin with a single step. Lao Tzu

bit · Member Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4352 Location: Kansas

Nancy, I played with Gunner separate from the herd in my friends indoor arena. Hawk's never seen it. I'm thinking he knows whoa from the trainer I sent him to? He knows leading from behind because we've done it. Even Gunner, who KNOWS WHOA, would turn and face for freakin ever unless I used a wall. Hawk just did it, perfect. If there are treats, Hawk has a lot of try. He learns as fast as you can teach him...sometimes faster. He makes Gunner look like he should be on the short bus.
So who is Karen Pryor?
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"It was once said I should clear my head for one cannot ride a Thoroughbred. Hot they are. And too fast they be. Forever on the fly. But I stayed the course and have no remorse. I love my off the track racehorse!"

jackspark · Member Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 4473 Location: Missouri

Super behavioral trainer, read her book: Don't Shoot the Dog! YOU will get a lot out of it. I have her other but haven't gotten to it yet.....Reaching the Animal Mind. It is up next for me......get it too!

So the Hawkster is just gifted

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Nancy

Flying Monkey Trainer

A journey of a thousand miles must
begin with a single step. Lao Tzu

bit · Member Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4352 Location: Kansas

Gifted, in a "Eddy Haskel" kind of way. The trainer really liked him, and said he was better educated than most endurance horses he's seen. I'm thinking if that trainer had used positive reinforcement, instead of just release, Hawk would be driving a truck by now. He'd also have his c.d.l. and have his own labrador in the back. I was worried about how I was going to get this horse to trust me, again. This seems to be the door. Now, if it would just cool off...remind me I said that when I'm whining about the cold.
Isn't it amazing and RIVITING how deeply this rabbit hole goes? Even with my cats and dogs, it blows my mind how much they give if you just show up. Course I have a border collie, so she DOES have her cdl, CAN drive the truck and wants a gun rack.

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"It was once said I should clear my head for one cannot ride a Thoroughbred. Hot they are. And too fast they be. Forever on the fly. But I stayed the course and have no remorse. I love my off the track racehorse!"

jackspark · Member Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 4473 Location: Missouri

My Rookie is the original E.H.

"Why Mother, You are looking marvelous this evening" Your comment on the depth of this........ right on, peeling the layers here.

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Nancy

Flying Monkey Trainer

A journey of a thousand miles must
begin with a single step. Lao Tzu

Cynthia_Royal · Member Joined: 09 Feb 2011 Posts: 14

bit · Member Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4352 Location: Kansas

I had so much fun tonight! Started with Gunner and Hawk (have to watch it and make sure I don't use too much energy with Hawk) and then Bit asked to play. She's so shy, but she put herself right in the middle. There were carrots, after all. Got a nice, little touch hello, and by the end she was taking 4 steps with me and even doing a bit of sideways, at liberty. Eclipse even played! She knows all this stuff, so she was just happy to have a carrot stuffed in her mouth for doing stuff she'd do anyway. And then Shaunie...

gave me a nice touch hello, and started taking steps with me! Even turning around, crossing over on the front! I gotta get a play area. I'm not good enough to do 5 horses at a time. It was an exercise in "stop, wait" and making sure I was very clear who I was playing with and who I wasn't. I did it in the same order, kept my energy on the horse I was playing with, said their name right at the beginning, meanwhile making it real clear other horses needed to wait and not take my attention off the horse I was with.
I told everyone we were done, put my carrot belt away in the tack room and suddenly remembered Nancy said the hedge apples were happening. I burst out of the tack room, got eye contact with Hawk and said, "HAWKIE!!!!!! Wanna go hedge apple hunting?" I was so excited! the whole herd got all zippity and we scampered out to the back of the pasture behind the shelter. They knew exactly what we were doing, except for Shaun. He came anyway. He got all caught up in the excitement. Note, Shaun doesn't usually come at night. I have to call to him, and sometimes he comes. It was so fun! Everyone said goodnight, scractched their favorite spots and Bess, my border collie, the barn cats and I headed back to the house.
It sure is motivating to get out and play, when the horses you are playing with love what they are doing. I sure hope it's like this when we start riding bridless!
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"It was once said I should clear my head for one cannot ride a Thoroughbred. Hot they are. And too fast they be. Forever on the fly. But I stayed the course and have no remorse. I love my off the track racehorse!"