It's About The Horse

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9014

OK...I started doing Gaited Dressage with Rosie this year. We've gone to 3 clinic/lessons now and did a practice shoe/test yesterday. Having worked with Larry Whitesell we were pretty prepared for most of it and are doing very well (at the VERY beginning level). What I am having problems with is the free walk with loose reins and the head down. The walk and loose reins are fine, the stride length is fine, my seat asking for the lengthening is fine. What is NOT fine is her head height, it needs to be lower, near her knees. Now Rosie can see NO POINT it walking with her head down there when there is so much to SEE with her head UP! I mean that IS her breeding!

I can get her head down with a "down" command at a stand still. I can PUSH her head down at a walk, but that changes my seat position --- and is illegal in a real test. So HOW do you get them to lower their heads? I know it is supposed to be relaxing, but she is relaxed with her head just a few inches too high.
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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

thelmanelle · Member Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Posts: 3246

Hey Carol,

I need to go back and read more, but my instructor shows a variety of breeds at dressage. I know I have said he shows at L-1 International. He shows an Arabian at the regular Dressage shows. High head and tail carrying goes with the breed.

Somethings are not changeable. Judges tend not to like the angle of the rear of the Arabian. So in dressage to get his points up with this horse, he competes against other Arabians.

It's hard to please all judges with all breeds. Yes, they like to see that the horse will drop to a relaxed position and yet, go back into contact with out force.

I hope I answered something for you. Yet, I still have not shown. I f=go and watch and take lessons.

AlythLong · Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:43 am Post subject:

Like you I am just starting dressage after many a long year!! I am reading very simple books that explain the basics much better than the "gurus" . I am reading Dressage Essentials by a lady called Jane Kidd. And she talks about an exercise she calls "champ the reins out of the hands". Of course she is talking about bitted horses but the principles should be the same. She says to ease the rein contact so the horse can stretch forward and down to maintain contact. I don't know how this will work with my Arabians either!! When I start riding again August/September we will find out!! Another good author I have found is Peggoty Henriques. She talks about the same exercises to find your best position as the Connected Riding teachers.

Good luck!! Alyth

Clarissa · Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:07 pm Post subject:

When Ken Faulkner was teaching us the ‘long & low’ rein, he taught us a few ways to cause the horse to lower it's head. One way was the same exercise as the 7step backup, except we took up a very short rein & when we got all fingers closed we dropped 1 rein totally & held the other quite still & waited for the horse to push a tiny bit against the bit/halter. At that point we let the rein slide well controlled through our fingers while keeping a firmish rein. Which meant the horse was lengthening it’s neck into the bridle/halter. Once the poll was lowering a little we let the rein slide more easily & the horse dropped it’s head a little more. Over a short time the horse will learn to take the bit to the ground when that exercise is commenced.

The real reason for doing it is to teach the horse to raise the base of it’s neck (per Dr Deb) & lengthen it’s neck into the bridle to get ‘up & over the bit’. It has the side benefit of teaching the horse to take the bit to the ground when you allow the reins to slide.

I have video on youtube where I do it with Sonny when I was doing some AND & KR exercises to improve his top line etc. In that exercise I do the same moves as if I was using 2 reins but I just take up 1 rein at a time (helps keep the horse balanced & unreliant on 2 reins) until short & hold it until Sonny pushes against it a tad. As he pushes I let the rein start to slide a little & very soon Sonny leaned to take the bit to the ground right away. If he didn’t take it all the way down first go I would attempt to take the rein back again at which point he would zip it to the ground.

I haven’t followed through with the second part of that exercise because it is too hard on my shoulders to hold firmly against that push while Sonny learns to lift the base of his neck to relieve the pressure. The hold is applied at a progressively shorter rein during the head lowering stage of the exercise after the horse has become competent & comfortable at taking the bit to the ground. The AND exercise takes the bit all the way to the ground & has the horse walking/trotting with nose to ground (chase the tiger style) for developing balance & longer topline. Ken F has W/T/C c/- nose to ground in his L3 assessments tasks.

Carol, your Rosie probably doesn’t need to learn to raise the base of her neck but the bit to ground part might help you a lot. You could just teach her to take it part way down by gently lifting the reins together to apply the slight extra pressure on the bit.

The ‘bit to ground’ part can also be taught using a halter although there is a possibility of the horse learning incorrect biomechanics if the second part involving the hold to teach ‘raise the base of the neck’ is taught in the halter.
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PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9014

I didn't have Rosie on the bit and was watching Margaret teach the longitudinal stretch to a Finesse class. I didn't participate because I didn't want Rosie to lean into the bosal. I remember them combing the rein to get the horse to reach for the bit. When I comb the rein Rosie stops and backs up!

The 9-step back. I tried wiggling one rein a couple times, which is similar to the cue I use on the ground with the word "down." This works at a stand still, but does not work walking.

Giving her more rein doesn't work, since she already has loose reins on her long walk, lowers her head and extends her stride. She just doesn't lower her head as far as they say she needs to.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

thelmanelle · Member Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Posts: 3246

One thing I do remember in dressage is that they want a forward moving gate...not a backwards moving gate. it is okay to stop/halt or turn on the forhand, etc. sometimes, to back 5 steps, but not and all out backing horse. A dressage horse should be forward moving on contact or on the buckle.

I hope that helps. So much of my lessons are talking and repetition. Discussions of lightness. Feelings of lightbness on the bit. Many times, I find I have to losen my body in the saddle, so I am not being too tense with the horse.

Yet, it is a fine line to show, because it needs to come together to show or for educational purposes...schooling show. Consructive critcism.

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9014

Thanks Sonya....I do know I'm not supposed to back. Rosie doesn't know it though, and she does it well from all her Parelli training. So, giving her a cue to do something new, that is the same as a cue she already knows, is confusing her. So, I was hoping for a different cue. I was trying to use the word "Down!" but they don't let you talk in dressage either. Lots of RULES!!!

_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

thelmanelle · Member Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Posts: 3246

I know.

Lots, but I find it challenging to take the lesson and be in the moment with the horse, Summer. It's fun to me to be learning. You have to find an answer to change the back up.

With Summer, when it goes south, we do something else and then, try it again later. No fight, just move on.

Niek · Member Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 1065

there is a segment in True horsemanship through feel round page 88 that might be of help

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9014

Thanks Niek, I'll look it up.

I took Rosie and Bien to the Chiropractor today and there well could be a physical reason. Something I've noticed with Rosie from the beginning was that she flipped the top section of her mane on the near side. You could straighten her hair and she'd flip it again within a minute. It turns out she has an out alien disc at C3, probably from a halter incident as a foal. At any rate, it would affect her lowering her head AND vertical flexion into the bit. So. we'll see what adjustment her treatment makes.

Now...to go read that book...again! LOL
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Niek · Member Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 1065

i specifically mean the segment about how softnes can carry over

There are other probably easier options, but from an explanation on a forum, the easieness is mainly in the bit. PK Has some excercises that make a foreward stretch a peace of cake, but that requires a contact.

So the part in bills book might not be interly specific , but i think it will give you some extra tactics..

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9014

Thanks Niek, I'll check into it. I think there is some stuff in Mark Russell's book I can look at also.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

cynthia peterson · Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:41 pm Post subject:

Well, doggone it, I have typed out a detailed post twice and lost it! So I will make this short so maybe I can maybe getitdone!

Flipping the nuchal ligament is a desired thing if you ASKED for it. That is what makes the mane flip. It is something that can be done after you get this long and low movement trained well.

In a nutshell: When stretched forward and downward, the upper neck line- via the nuchal ligament- raises the back into the desired position, which allows the longissimus back muscle to work in relaxation and remain free and actively engaged.

The long and low can be done wrong, it is misunderstood, but right is a beautiful thing. Long low and out...

Now how to do it... any questions?