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Clarissa
Member
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 2623
Location: Gympie, SE Qld, Australia
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 Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:39 am Post subject: FOOTING PROVIDING ALTERNATIVE SUPPORT? |
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If this heading isn’t right please let me know guys, cheers.
Ok so things are not as clear cut as they may be at times so before things get hot under the collar I decided to start a new thread so all the forum members who don't read my thread can get the benefit of what we are all talking about.
To begin with here’s what Blue Flame said about me finding some sort of footing that Sonny could stand on to help his feet get stronger after his abscess & to help clear toxicity out of the hoof:-
| Blue Flame wrote: | Clarissa,
You said about some sole shedding that was going on. Is it likely that the recent blow-out is connected to the sole shedding in terms of a sub-solar abcess?
Below is not advice - just some ideas that might help somehow.
My inclination would be to provide Sonny with the option of frog and sole support - deep yielding footing footing would be my preference.
The problem with foam and/or pads is that while providing support - they dont always provide the necessary release of pressure. I've stood my horse in boots and frog pads and after a little while, if he is not moving, he'll begin to alternately shift weight from one foot to the other to get the necessary release of pressure. Also, one day I realised that part of the reason he liked standing on the bridge obstacle (apart from rest and treats) in the sand arena was that it allowed him some release of pressure on the frog. The pumice riversand in our arenas is not to his liking as it provides too much frog pressure for him. Other arenas with more dirt in the sand so that it plugs up into the collateral grooves and shares some of the pressure with the sole are more to his liking.
If he is in a confined space, I would maybe consider giving him a choice of deep and firm footing within that space and let him choose if and when to alternate between the two. Support for healing must have pressure and release in order to provide circulation. The support of deep footing allows circulation into the tiny vessels of the foot while firm footing allows for bypass shunts to open for high flow - flushes toxins out faster. You might remember that from "Under the Horse".
I used to use this principle when hand-walking down the road for hoof conditioning (and to create a bit of wear to save on trimming) - alternating between the tarmac and the grass verges.
If he has a choice of footing, he can alternate pressure on various parts of the foot if an area becomes overworked or sore. Quite often they will stand toe-down in deep footing - which actually wads the surface up under the rear part of the foot to take the weight while loosening all the tendons a little. Observing his preferences might give you some clues as to where the problem is in the foot or at least where he is most comfortable taking weight on it.
I remember Leah, when she was still here, mentioning about KC's concept that healthier structures can be used to compensate/support the unhealthier structures - a choice of footing might give Sonny the means to find that for himself. |
Here’s what MandysMarty said about these things:-
| Mandy'sMarty wrote: | | Blue Flame wrote: |
The problem with foam and/or pads is that while providing support - they dont always provide the necessary release of pressure. I've stood my horse in boots and frog pads and after a little while, if he is not moving, he'll begin to alternately shift weight from one foot to the other to get the necessary release of pressure... The pumice riversand in our arenas is not to his liking as it provides too much frog pressure for him. Other arenas with more dirt in the sand so that it plugs up into the collateral grooves and shares some of the pressure with the sole are more to his liking.
Sandy, I believe I had great great luck rehabilitating Mandy's front feet last year once I figured out what thickness and density of Comfort Pad to put inside her Epics & Gloves. I'm wondering if your experience was different due to your use of frog pads rather than a pad that covered the whole solar surface. Perhaps the Comfort Pad, which I used to cover the full boot floor, mimicked the dirt/sand combo that your horse liked.
Support for healing must have pressure and release in order to provide circulation. The support of deep footing allows circulation into the tiny vessels of the foot while firm footing allows for bypass shunts to open for high flow - flushes toxins out faster. You might remember that from "Under the Horse".
Do you recall which DVD in the set covers this? Had to be in one of the 'classroom' sessions.
If he has a choice of footing, he can alternate pressure on various parts of the foot if an area becomes overworked or sore. Quite often they will stand toe-down in deep footing - which actually wads the surface up under the rear part of the foot to take the weight while loosening all the tendons a little.
Sandy, Could you explain how this occurs? I'm having a hard time visualizing how the toe-down stance "wads the surface up under the rear part of the foot". I'm not disagreeing here...I'm just not yet able to get the picture.
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Here's what Blue Flame said in response:-
| Blue Flame wrote: | Marty,
I agree with you regarding the pads. The point is that they can be problematic - there are so many variables: thickness, density, frog relief or frog blocks. If you have a full set of pads to play around with and time to experiment and you find what the horse likes, then it will probably change as the hoof changes if it is working properly.
The frog pads we used were raised blocks on a thin full sole pads. They did their job in getting the horse confidently landing heel first. Then, when his frogs thickened up, the lessened space which compressed the pads more became too much. He has improved greatly and can land on his frogs ok - but still not good enough to take all of the weight all of the time.
With regard to the pressure/release and peripheral/solar loading of the hoof, Pete talks about Dr. Bowker's doppler ultrasound experiments determining blood perfusion of the hoof on various surfaces in DVD 4 at 22:40. Additional info of the same comes from Yvonne Welz here: http://www.easycareinc.com/Education/articles/pad_effect.aspx
Pete doesn't talk about the shunting or bypassing though, sorry if that was misleading . . .
The other half of it, where the blood is shunted directly from artery to vein is how horses maintain limb temperature in temperature extremes. Dr. Pollitt uses this very mechanism to suggest cryogenic therapy for horses at the onset of laminitis to prevent blood borne laminitic trigger factors (LTFs) from reaching the laminae. More here: http://www.nzerf.co.nz/Attachments/The%20Horse's%20Foot%20-%20The%20Inside%20Story.pdf (might have to cut and paste to get link to work)
Now, here's my thinking. If a horse has something wrong in the foot, it is likely that toxins have been created. These toxins can escape either by bursting out through an abcess or by being carried away in the bloodstream. If we use increased blood perfusion (via providing sole support) we can increase nutrients etc to effect healing.
However, there is also the risk that the toxins that are carried away in the blood can overload or stress the horse metabolically. I think some horses have actually died, colicked or felt quite sick once the circulation was restored and the toxins entered the blood, polluting it.
This is where I think alternating the increased blood perfusion of the hoof via sole support with the AVA (arteriovenous anastomoses) shunting or bypassing of the hoof by peripheral loading can help. It enables more blood to dilute the toxins so they don't arrive all of a sudden in high concentration in the rest of the horse.
We have environmental experts where I work and one of their maxims is "The solution to pollution is dilution". When I first looked into all this stuff, I remember reading/hearing that a toxic shock to the horse was always a possibility when old pathologies are disturbed on the path to healing.
With regard to the horse standing toes down in deep footing - they weight the back of the foot so that you could actually dig the ground out from under their toes and not get your fingers squished. |
Here's what RickB said in response:-
| RickB. wrote: | | Blue Flame wrote: |
The problem with foam and/or pads is that while providing support - they dont always provide the necessary release of pressure. |
Would that not be a function of the pad material(s) and how they are applied? Also, how does a pad provide support but not release of [assumed] pressure?
| Quote: | | I've stood my horse in boots and frog pads and after a little while, if he is not moving, he'll begin to alternately shift weight from one foot to the other to get the necessary release of pressure. |
How can any appliance, pad or otherwise, regardless of materials used, provide release of pressure when said devise is statically loaded?
| Quote: | | Also, one day I realised that part of the reason he liked standing on the bridge obstacle (apart from rest and treats) in the sand arena was that it allowed him some release of pressure on the frog. |
How? ie: what are the physics involved? By releasing pressure on one part of the hoof, what are the consequences to other parts of the hoof? What happens when the horse seeks relief/release of pressure on those parts of the hoof?
| Quote: | | The support of deep footing allows circulation into the tiny vessels of the foot while firm footing allows for bypass shunts to open for high flow - |
Please explain how/why the AV shunts open as a result of firm footing and where the research on this phenomenon can be found.
| Quote: | | ......flushes toxins out faster. |
How is that possible considering "The presence of arterio-venous anastomoses (AVAs) gives an alternate route for blood passing from the arteriole to the venule. When the AVA is open, blood can bypass the capillary bed and is unavailable to the tissues. ". Since that is the case how can toxins in the tissues of the hoof be flushed out faster?
| Quote: | | I used to use this principle when hand-walking down the road for hoof conditioning (and to create a bit of wear to save on trimming) - alternating between the tarmac and the grass verges. |
What ever the bio-mechanics involved, they did not include the use of A-V shunts(anastomoses).
| Quote: | | If he has a choice of footing, he can alternate pressure on various parts of the foot if an area becomes overworked or sore. Quite often they will stand toe-down in deep footing - which actually wads the surface up under the rear part of the foot to take the weight while loosening all the tendons a little. |
Toe down stance is indicative of caudal hoof pain but your understanding of the mechanics is somewhat flawed. It is true that the horse is attempting to lessen weight bearing in the caudal part of the hoof, and that initially, some minor tendon laxity is achieved, however, the surface under the heels is not taking up any more of the weight than it would were the horse standing flat. In fact, mechanically, it is supporting less because the horse is intentionally shifting the weight forward and off the heels. Just as in most instances of laminitis or founder, the horse shifts its hoof weight bearing rearward to relieve weight bearing by the front of the hoof/sole, particularly in the area in front of the true apex of the frog.
| Quote: | | Observing his preferences might give you some clues as to where the problem is in the foot or at least where he is most comfortable taking weight on it. |
Agreed. 
| Quote: | | I remember Leah, when she was still here, mentioning about KC's concept that healthier structures can be used to compensate/support the unhealthier structures - |
No disrespect to Leah, but that's not KC's concept. It is a concept/practice that has been part of farrier education and hoof care for centuries, if not longer. |
Followed by this post in response to mine after Marty's (you can find my post by going here page 14:-
http://itsaboutthehorse.myfastforum.org/ftopic3582-195.php
| RickB. wrote: | | Clarissa wrote: |
I recently made the decision that concavity was due to strong hoof walls. |
Please define "strong hoof walls" and how one makes that determination.
| Quote: | | Sonny does not have strong hoof walls! |
I disagree. I think they just need a different management/trimming/shoeing(if necessary) protocol.
| Quote: | | You are right about dirt trapped in the grooves helping to support the horse. |
Something that has been espoused by Gene Ovnicek, et al for more than 20 years. 
| Quote: | | I am coming to the conclusion that the reason my horse’s feet went flat when I moved to this place is because very little dirt gets trapped in their soles. |
If that were the case, then any horse living in an arid environment would have flat feet. A phenomena which demonstrably does not occur.
| Quote: | | So finding some sort of footing might be an idea. It could be dumped in the playground area. I could try to see about a load of pine bark fines which will last a good while but can be soft under foot. |
Bear in mind The Law of Unintended Consequences. In this instance it may include soft tissue(ligament/tendon)damage/injury because of the soft footing.
| Quote: | | However here are 2 shots of the hoof Sonny has had to stand on all during the last week. It is clear to see how the hoof wall has succumbed to the extra weight. So I expect that foot will now have problems of at least torn laminae inside the walls on the outside of the hoof. |
There are no laminae in that location.
| Quote: | | It will still be a while before his RH is well enough to carry his weight so I can trim that LH to reduce that long toe & address the misshapen flare that’s developed this last week. |
The time is now! The longer you leave that foot as it is, the more damage that is done.
| Quote: | | The other feet got trimmed last week but the RH was already a bit sore so I never forced him to stand on it to trim the LH. |
That's an excuse, not a reason. There are ways to get the job done and keep the horse relatively, if not fully, comfortable
| Quote: | | Marty referred to using the full sole pads. I was a bit disappointed with the pads I got from Easycare (although I still use the same ones) because they went flat so quickly.They stopped being spongy & became more like filler pads. |
If those pads flattened and conformed to the contours of the hoof, especially the back half+/-, then cut/alter them appropriately and use them to help support the back of the hoof. |
There are more replies on pages 14&15.
OK guys over to you 
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http://clissats-own-page.blogspot.com/
Most of L4 PNH achieved WooHoo!!
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Clarissa
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Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 2623
Location: Gympie, SE Qld, Australia
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| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:26 am Post subject: |
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I’m sure I’ve heard of horses that had been slung for long periods of time to heal broken bones, eventually getting chronic laminitis or lost the hoof capsule due to reduced blood capacity & flow through the hoof structures. Also that once released from their slings they can still loose their hoof capsules & there may even be permanent damage to their hooves if they are not reslung for regular periods daily until their hooves are accustomed to the weight again.
I know for sure the hoof gets a lot smaller quite quickly when not weight bearing because the blood isn’t being pumped through(well that's how it was put to me). That in itself is telling of the clearing process accorded by the blood flow. Also Rick says there is more than one main form of outlet for the blood from the hoof. I should hunt for a good diagram.
Soft tissue damage causes pain & that will induce certain toxicity as the cells are dying & breaking down & being flushed out via the blood flows. Gout is a classic example of toxicity build-up in human limbs due to blood flow not circulating enough to flush those toxins out OR of the molecular size & structures of some toxins being too big to pass through the capillaries on their way back to the cleansing organs. In this day of processed horse feeds I’m sure horses may actually get gout!
Regarding horses relieving weight on parts of their hoof:-
This morning I actually tested BF’s theory about the horse being able to unload it’s toes whilst still standing toe down. Sonny was standing facing downhill on the steepest part of the back paddock (slope +/- 1:5). I laid infront of his back feet with my head on the ground & watched the very short grass as it yielded under hoof to his weight shifts. At one point he weighted his heels & unloaded his toes a little. He rocked back somewhat on his heels. He was standing temporarily on all 4 feet. He seems to have a pattern when he’s got a sore foot of using one back foot mostly but sharing the weight around the other 3 in sequence whilst having the sore foot on the ground taking a little of the weight. Then he goes back to resting the sore foot.
When he weighted his heels I was able to drive the tip of my finger a little way under the toe of both his hinds. As I ran my finger around the hoof it was easy to feel that much more weight was placed on his heels. It only lasted maybe 30secs before he went back to resting his sore foot by cocking it. But he also shared his weight around across the L&R of his hoof too. He would rock to the outside of the hoof & again I could just get the tip of my finger under the inner edge of that hoof that he was standing on. He would weight different feet in various order. So not only was he sharing his weight directly between 3 or 4 of his feet, he was also sharing between the front & back & R & L sides of each hoof. All the time standing facing downhill on a reasonably steep slope.
I guess it stands to reason that if we can stand on the edge of our feet there’s no reason why horses can’t do the same thing. Afterall they also have a series of joints in their ‘ankles & toes’ like us. Sonny puts a lot of weight on the good foot, turns that toe in under his belly so his hock sticks out & moves all his weight across so it is centered over that foot. That’s how come he has been able to deform his good hoof during this last week.
For anyone who has had employment where you were on your feet all day on a hard surface without respite or been a soldier & had to stand for hours on parade unable to flinch for fear of being yelled at, you know what sore feet are all about. You soon learn how to shift your weight to rest parts of each foot or the muscles in your legs & wiggle your toes inside those bloody hot boots to stop your legs & feet from going to sleep. I can't see why horses should be any different.
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Most of L4 PNH achieved WooHoo!!
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RickB.
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Joined: 22 Jul 2010
Posts: 106
Location: East Central Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| Clarissa wrote: | | I’m sure I’ve heard of horses that had been slung for long periods of time to heal broken bones, eventually getting chronic laminitis or lost the hoof capsule due to reduced blood capacity & flow through the hoof structures. |
Don't be so sure. Regardless, even if true, their numbers are statistically insignificant. Further, the cause(s) of any laminitis/lost hoof capsule associated with the treatment protocol remains, speculation.
| Quote: | | Also that once released from their slings they can still loose their hoof capsules & there may even be permanent damage to their hooves if they are not reslung for regular periods daily until their hooves are accustomed to the weight again. |
Cites, or, hearsay?
| Quote: | | I know for sure the hoof gets a lot smaller quite quickly when not weight bearing because the blood isn’t being pumped through(well that's how it was put to me). |
How do you know that 'for sure'?
| Quote: | | That in itself is telling of the clearing process accorded by the blood flow. |
That is a logical fallacy.
| Quote: | | Also Rick says there is more than one main form of outlet for the blood from the hoof. |
I did not say that......
| Quote: | | Soft tissue damage causes pain & that will induce certain toxicity as the cells are dying & breaking down & being flushed out via the blood flows. |
How does pain induce 'certain toxicity'? Are you sure that its not the other way around?
| Quote: | | Gout is a classic example of toxicity build-up in human limbs due to blood flow not circulating enough to flush those toxins out OR of the molecular size & structures of some toxins being too big to pass through the capillaries on their way back to the cleansing organs. |
No disrespect, but your understanding of gout is rather incorrect. Lets start by you reading this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001459/
| Quote: | | In this day of processed horse feeds I’m sure horses may actually get gout! |
I'm sure that the moon may actually be made of green cheese, but you know what, both of us are wrong.
| Quote: | | This morning I actually tested BF’s theory about the horse being able to unload it’s toes whilst still standing toe down. Sonny was standing facing downhill on the steepest part of the back paddock (slope +/- 1:5). I laid infront of his back feet with my head on the ground & watched the very short grass as it yielded under hoof to his weight shifts. At one point he weighted his heels & unloaded his toes a little. |
Of course, as he shifted weight, he did. But its not the same thing.
| Quote: | | He rocked back somewhat on his heels. |
At that point, was there musculo-tendenous laxity? Where?
| Quote: | | He was standing temporarily on all 4 feet. |
If this was temporary, how does he normally stand? Was the weight bearing even? How do you know?
| Quote: | | He seems to have a pattern when he’s got a sore foot of using one back foot mostly but sharing the weight around the other 3 in sequence whilst having the sore foot on the ground taking a little of the weight. |
Nothing unusual about that. Its why you usually see horses with caudal hoof pain syndrome in one or both of the front hooves, alternately load one hoof while 'pointing' the other, then reversing the process over and over. Its also why you see them standing toe down. And lets be clear, this phenomena most often occurs in the front limbs.
| Quote: | | Sonny puts a lot of weight on the good foot, turns that toe in under his belly so his hock sticks out & moves all his weight across so it is centered over that foot. That’s how come he has been able to deform his good hoof during this last week. |
If what you say does in fact occur, then if the weight is centered, why would the hoof deform? Is there any research that shows that a hoof, especially a hind hoof, can deform as much as is evident with Sonny, in the space of seven days?
| Quote: | | For anyone who has had employment where you were on your feet all day on a hard surface without respite or been a soldier & had to stand for hours on parade unable to flinch for fear of being yelled at, you know what sore feet are all about. You soon learn how to shift your weight to rest parts of each foot or the muscles in your legs & wiggle your toes inside those bloody hot boots to stop your legs & feet from going to sleep. I can't see why horses should be any different. |
Well, one reason might be because the horse is a quadra-ped and man is a bi-ped. Another reason might be because the horse has no muscles below the knee and hock. A third and most important reason is because of the 'stay apparatus' present in the fore and hind limbs of the horse but not present in man. And it is that 'stay apparatus' that allows the horse to stand (and even sleep standing up) for extended periods of time. It also accounts for why a horse can stand with one hind hoof firmly on the ground(the stay apparatus on that side is 'engaged' by the horse) while standing with only the tip of the toe of the opposite hind hoof barely touching the ground. |
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PasoBaby_CarolU
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Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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I think I can provide my own experiences and help...I hope. I have used Styrofoam and rubber foam "slippers" many times. The foam rather quickly forms to the inside of the horse's foot, being thicker into the sole and collateral grooves and thinner on the frog and hoof walls. It will provide support like this until the walls "break through" the foam and are again in contact with the ground. There is most definitely a release of pressure as soon as the horse unweights that foot. Try putting a pebble in your sock at the pad of your foot and stand on it. Then stop standing on it. The pebble is still there, but it no longer exerts pressure once it is unweighted.
Commercial boots and pads for horses protect the hoof walls, but do not provide sole support. They are essentially a flat surface that is held onto the hoof and they normally are not 'padded' but hard.
When I deal with laminitis I now use casts. Once applied correctly, they support the hoof wall, heels, sole, and frog, and do so for several weeks until it is time to replace them. Until I get a horse in casts, I keep them in deep sand or deep shavings. Sand is preferable to me because I can wet it and it helps hydrate the hoof, where shavings will draw moisture out of the hoof. If your problems stem from moist, soft hoof walls, then you may prefer the shavings.
I strongly recommend going to the Yahoo Cushings group and reading the files on founder trims. There are also farriers who specialize in treating foundered horses with great success. THAT is where I'd look for information.
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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos
"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."
Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar
"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt |
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RickB.
Member
Joined: 22 Jul 2010
Posts: 106
Location: East Central Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU wrote: | | I think I can provide my own experiences and help...I hope. I have used Styrofoam and rubber foam "slippers" many times. The foam rather quickly forms to the inside of the horse's foot, being thicker into the sole and collateral grooves and thinner on the frog and hoof walls. It will provide support like this until the walls "break through" the foam and are again in contact with the ground. |
At that point it is time to add another layer of styrofoam to the original one. Following The Styrofoam Protocol (http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/cms/styrofoam-support-pad-instructions.html) will take care of the situation you describe.
| Quote: | | There is most definitely a release of pressure as soon as the horse unweights that foot. Try putting a pebble in your sock at the pad of your foot and stand on it. Then stop standing on it. The pebble is still there, but it no longer exerts pressure once it is unweighted. |
I don't know if this is directed to/at me or not, but my question was with regard to static loading, not dynamic movement.
| Quote: | | Commercial boots and pads for horses protect the hoof walls, but do not provide sole support. |
Unless appropriate inserts are used, correct?
| Quote: | | They are essentially a flat surface that is held onto the hoof and they normally are not 'padded' but hard. |
From what I have read, many of the boot manufacturers offer a selection of pads/inserts now. I am most familiar with the Soft-Ride boots and have be pleased with them as one option for dealing with laminitis/founder.
| Quote: | | When I deal with laminitis I now use casts. Once applied correctly, they support the hoof wall, heels, sole, and frog, and do so for several weeks until it is time to replace them. |
I also use casts on occasion but they are far from the only option in my bag of tricks.
| Quote: | | Until I get a horse in casts, I keep them in deep sand or deep shavings. |
I find shavings to be less than adequate when dealing with anything but the mildest cases of laminitis or founder, and even in those instances, never during the acute phase of founder.
| Quote: | | Sand is preferable to me because I can wet it and it helps hydrate the hoof,...... |
Why would you want to wet an already compromised sole and sole-wall junction?
| Quote: | | ........where shavings will draw moisture out of the hoof. |
And the drawback to that is.......? |
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PasoBaby_CarolU
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Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps I should clarify Rick, I was referring to hoof boots that are sold for use in leiu of shoes, like Easyboots, Renegades, or Old Macs. Many people put these on the horse instead of pads, but they don't provide support for the sole. I was not referring to therapeutic pads.
In the environment I live, the ground is so hard and both it and the air are dry, the hooves become dry and brittle. Adding moisture is necessary to hydrate the hoof and make healthy hoof wall and sole. I have seen more then one horse's feet 'crumble' away, and people often put them on shavings, which only make the dryness worse. The desert is a very different environment.
I am sure you have many things in your arsenal. I have seen a very good founder farrier working with a vet do some amazing things. I am not a farrier and have but a few tools. Hoof casts, applied to a good trim, have been the best way for me to stabilize hooves while they heal and grow out healthy growth.
I hope that clarifies.
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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos
"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."
Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar
"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt |
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RickB.
Member
Joined: 22 Jul 2010
Posts: 106
Location: East Central Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU wrote: | | Perhaps I should clarify Rick,....... |
Whoa! You want to clarify me?  
| Quote: | | I was referring to hoof boots that are sold for use in leiu of shoes, like Easyboots, Renegades, or Old Macs. Many people put these on the horse instead of pads, but they don't provide support for the sole. I was not referring to therapeutic pads. |
Got it. Don't those manufacturers also sell inserts for those boots?
| Quote: | | In the environment I live, the ground is so hard and both it and the air are dry, the hooves become dry and brittle. Adding moisture is necessary to hydrate the hoof and make healthy hoof wall and sole. |
I understand the use/hydration for healthy feet. However, softening a hoof compromised by laminitis and, especially, founder, seems to me to be counter-productive and dangerous.
| Quote: | | I have seen more then one horse's feet 'crumble' away, and people often put them on shavings, which only make the dryness worse. The desert is a very different environment. |
I too have seen some feet that respond poorly to that environment. I have also seen feet that manage quite successfully, without man's intervention, in that environment. Finding the correct balance is what often turns one's hair gray.
| Quote: | | Hoof casts, applied to a good trim, have been the best way for me to stabilize hooves while they heal and grow out healthy growth. |
What works, works.
| Quote: | | I hope that clarifies. |
Indeed. |
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Blue Flame
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Joined: 02 Feb 2009
Posts: 975
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| RickB. wrote: | | Blue Flame wrote: |
The problem with foam and/or pads is that while providing support - they dont always provide the necessary release of pressure. |
Would that not be a function of the pad material(s) and how they are applied? Also, how does a pad provide support but not release of [assumed] pressure?
| Quote: | | I've stood my horse in boots and frog pads and after a little while, if he is not moving, he'll begin to alternately shift weight from one foot to the other to get the necessary release of pressure. |
How can any appliance, pad or otherwise, regardless of materials used, provide release of pressure when said devise is statically loaded?
| Quote: | | Also, one day I realised that part of the reason he liked standing on the bridge obstacle (apart from rest and treats) in the sand arena was that it allowed him some release of pressure on the frog. |
How? ie: what are the physics involved? By releasing pressure on one part of the hoof, what are the consequences to other parts of the hoof? What happens when the horse seeks relief/release of pressure on those parts of the hoof?
The answer to all of these is to put them in the context of a horse, Sonny, who is/was not moving around much. Lets put it in context shall we?
Immediately prior to writing the things you quoted I wrote:
| Blue Flame wrote: | | My inclination would be to provide Sonny with the option of frog and sole support - deep yielding footing would be my preference. |
(italics added)
At that time, Sonny was pretty much a static horse. By giving him the choice of footing, he could shift the support to the part of his hoof where he felt it most comfortable - for as long as he felt comfortable - by choosing which surface to stand on.
If we fitted a pad - we'd remove that choice from the static horse. If we fit a pad that supports whatever part of the hoof, the only release the horse gets from that part of the hoof is to take the weight off that hoof (weight shifts forward/aft/lateral/medial notwithstanding).
My example of my own horse illustrated this point when I said "If he is not moving". i.e. the frog pad took from my horse the choice of where his weight would be supported - regardless of the surface he was standing on - because wherever he stood he'd still be on the pad. The counterpoint to this is the example I gave where my horse (without boots or pads) would choose to stand on the bridge, thus loading peripherally and giving his frogs a rest.
If you or I had an injury, we would tend to compensate to a position of more comfort. Then, after a while, maybe the compensatory position would get tiresome or painful as well due to overloading or overuse. We could subsequently shift to another position until pain or fatigue again made that untenable. Then we could start alternating between positions to share the load around - a change can be as good as a holiday. But put a pad on a horse to support a particular part of the foot and that's what he's stuck with until we decide to change it - no change, no holiday. Static horse remember?
| Quote: | | The support of deep footing allows circulation into the tiny vessels of the foot while firm footing allows for bypass shunts to open for high flow - |
Please explain how/why the AV shunts open as a result of firm footing and where the research on this phenomenon can be found.
Since you have already dismissed Dr. Bowker's research regarding hoof perfusion in relation to terrain - I don't think I could provide an answer to this that you would find satisfactory. Such an answer would involve extrapolated, but logical, conclusions as a result of fluid dynamics principles. However, being extrapolations, they hinge upon the acceptance of Dr. Bowker's original premise, which you clearly do not subscribe to as made abundantly clear in your post quoted below.
| RickB. wrote: | As regards Bowker's work regarding circulation in the hoof, I offer for your consideration two thoughts:
1. Bowker is a great one for going from lab studies to press releases without the inconvenience of peer review.
2. Dr. James Rooney, DVM, has offered the following commentary on blood flow in the equine hoof:
"Measuring such flow accurately and over a period of time and interpreting the results properly is a difficult task and not for casual diddling around. I am not an expert in peripheral vascular physiology and neither are any of those who are making claims about foot and hoof vascular flow. Just shoot in a dye and taking pictures or slapping on a Doppler ultrasound does not mean the results are being correctly interpreted.
There is so much myth and nonsense spouted to support crackpot theorizing about the foot of the horse, it is only a miracle that man has not succeeded in destroying the animal utterly."
Perhaps some, if not all, of today's 'demi-gods' do in fact have feet of clay........  |
Just curious - how long ago did Dr. Rooney make that statement?
| Quote: | | ......flushes toxins out faster. |
How is that possible considering "The presence of arterio-venous anastomoses (AVAs) gives an alternate route for blood passing from the arteriole to the venule. When the AVA is open, blood can bypass the capillary bed and is unavailable to the tissues. ". Since that is the case how can toxins in the tissues of the hoof be flushed out faster?
They can't. But that was not the point of the AVA open phase. The point of the AVA open phase is to dilute the toxins that were released during the perfusion phase - so that the toxins do not enter the bloodstream in high concentrations. i.e some toxin gets released during perfusion, then diluted during AVA bypass. The dilution gives the horse's body more time to deal with toxins in a more gradual manner. This is what I meant by "the solution to pollution is dilution."
| Quote: | | I used to use this principle when hand-walking down the road for hoof conditioning (and to create a bit of wear to save on trimming) - alternating between the tarmac and the grass verges. |
What ever the bio-mechanics involved, they did not include the use of A-V shunts(anastomoses).
Maybe you're right. Personally, I'm hesitant to make such an absolute statement.
| Quote: | | If he has a choice of footing, he can alternate pressure on various parts of the foot if an area becomes overworked or sore. Quite often they will stand toe-down in deep footing - which actually wads the surface up under the rear part of the foot to take the weight while loosening all the tendons a little. |
Toe down stance is indicative of caudal hoof pain but your understanding of the mechanics is somewhat flawed. It is true that the horse is attempting to lessen weight bearing in the caudal part of the hoof, and that initially, some minor tendon laxity is achieved, however, the surface under the heels is not taking up any more of the weight than it would were the horse standing flat. In fact, mechanically, it is supporting less because the horse is intentionally shifting the weight forward and off the heels. Just as in most instances of laminitis or founder, the horse shifts its hoof weight bearing rearward to relieve weight bearing by the front of the hoof/sole, particularly in the area in front of the true apex of the frog.
I'll definitely get back to this one later as you have another post on the same topic that is best addressed simultaneously.
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RickB.
Member
Joined: 22 Jul 2010
Posts: 106
Location: East Central Illinois
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Blue Flame:93100"][quote="RickB.:92978"] | Blue Flame wrote: |
The answer to all of these is to put them in the context of a horse, Sonny, who is/was not moving around much. Lets put it in context shall we?
Immediately prior to writing the things you quoted I wrote:
| Blue Flame wrote: | | My inclination would be to provide Sonny with the option of frog and sole support - deep yielding footing would be my preference. |
(italics added) |
And my response was to point out the effects of The Law of Unintended Consequences..
| Quote: | | If we fitted a pad - we'd remove that choice from the static horse. If we fit a pad that supports whatever part of the hoof, the only release the horse gets from that part of the hoof is to take the weight off that hoof (weight shifts forward/aft/lateral/medial notwithstanding). |
This is different from moving between footing firmness, how? And why are weight shifts 'notwithstanding'?
| Quote: | | My example of my own horse illustrated this point when I said "If he is not moving". i.e. the frog pad took from my horse the choice of where his weight would be supported - regardless of the surface he was standing on - because wherever he stood he'd still be on the pad. |
Doesn't matter. Its not where he stands but how he stands as you so eloquently demonstrate in your counterpoint.
| Quote: | | The counterpoint to this is the example I gave where my horse (without boots or pads) would choose to stand on the bridge, thus loading peripherally and giving his frogs a rest. |
How does standing on a bridge load the hoof peripherally and , absent frog pathology, not also load at least the back 1/4-1/3 of the frog? Further, if environmental debris/surface has packed into the commissures, then that area remains loaded as well.
| Quote: | | If you or I had an injury, we would tend to compensate to a position of more comfort. Then, after a while, maybe the compensatory position would get tiresome or painful as well due to overloading or overuse. We could subsequently shift to another position until pain or fatigue again made that untenable. |
The Law of Unintended Consequences in action........
| Quote: | | Then we could start alternating between positions to share the load around - a change can be as good as a holiday. |
Or worse than your plane crashing on your way to said holiday......
| Quote: | | But put a pad on a horse to support a particular part of the foot and that's what he's stuck with until we decide to change it - no change, no holiday. Static horse remember?[/color] |
What happened to your observation of the static horse adjusting its stance incrementally through subtle or not so subtle changes in limb position, loading, etc?
| Quote: | | Quote: | | The support of deep footing allows circulation into the tiny vessels of the foot while firm footing allows for bypass shunts to open for high flow - |
Please explain how/why the AV shunts open as a result of firm footing and where the research on this phenomenon can be found.
Since you have already dismissed Dr. Bowker's research regarding hoof perfusion in relation to terrain - I don't think I could provide an answer to this that you would find satisfactory. |
Nice try but a cop out none the less. Bowker has done some studies, and then rather than publish them for peer review, he went straight to his adoring, mind numbed public who drank the sand because he told them it was water. In point of fact, he proposed a theory which is far different than fact.
| Quote: | Such an answer would involve extrapolated, but logical, conclusions as a result of fluid dynamics principles. However, being extrapolations, they hinge upon the acceptance of Dr. Bowker's original premise, which you clearly do not subscribe to as made abundantly clear in your post quoted below.
That's because, as Rory Calhoon observed in the movie "Pure Country", "that little speck of white on the top of chicken s-hit, well, it's chicken s-hit too."
That said, lets here your explanation of fluid dynamics as they relate to the subject at hand. Remember, its not the job of the skeptic to disprove, rather it is the job of the claimaint to prove.
Being a gentleman, I won't point out the problems, if not absurdity, with/of linking the terms 'extrapolated, logical and conclusions, together.
| Quote: | | RickB. wrote: | As regards Bowker's work regarding circulation in the hoof, I offer for your consideration two thoughts:
1. Bowker is a great one for going from lab studies to press releases without the inconvenience of peer review. |
The truth is an absolute defense.......
| Quote: | 2. Dr. James Rooney, DVM, has offered the following commentary on blood flow in the equine hoof:
"Measuring such flow accurately and over a period of time and interpreting the results properly is a difficult task and not for casual diddling around. I am not an expert in peripheral vascular physiology and neither are any of those who are making claims about foot and hoof vascular flow. Just shoot in a dye and taking pictures or slapping on a Doppler ultrasound does not mean the results are being correctly interpreted.
There is so much myth and nonsense spouted to support crackpot theorizing about the foot of the horse, it is only a miracle that man has not succeeded in destroying the animal utterly."
|
Just curious - how long ago did Dr. Rooney make that statement? |
IIRC, 6-7 years ago. However, absent proof to the contrary, its veracity remains as solid today as it was when he wrote it.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | ......flushes toxins out faster. |
How is that possible considering "The presence of arterio-venous anastomoses (AVAs) gives an alternate route for blood passing from the arteriole to the venule. When the AVA is open, blood can bypass the capillary bed and is unavailable to the tissues. ". Since that is the case how can toxins in the tissues of the hoof be flushed out faster?
They can't. But that was not the point of the AVA open phase. The point of the AVA open phase is to dilute the toxins that were released during the perfusion phase - so that the toxins do not enter the bloodstream in high concentrations. i.e some toxin gets released during perfusion, then diluted during AVA bypass. The dilution gives the horse's body more time to deal with toxins in a more gradual manner. This is what I meant by "the solution to pollution is dilution." |
First, explain how firm/hard ground causes the AVAs to open. Next, your rational/reasoning is flawed. You are assuming that toxin release occurs during perfusion, when no evidence of that exists. To the contrary, 'toxin' release from cell death/whatever, occurs whether there is perfusion or not and, the less perfusion/circulation in the area(s), the greater the concentration of 'toxins' there will be. So, and since you like extrapolations, logic and conclusions, by extrapolation, the opening of the AVAs creates a situation for greater toxicity within the hoof and the closing of the AVAs creates an increase in circulation/perfusion leading to a greater amount of toxin to be carried into the entire system. Additionally, since there is general concensus that when there is hoof pathology, especially in instances of founder, more circulation, not less is not only a good thing but rather essential to the healing/tissue regeneration process, your premise regarding the AVAs is, logically, extrapolatorily(a new word I just coined ), conclusively, incorrect.
And you still have not explained how hard footing causes the AVAs to open or, conversely, how soft footing causes them to close. But I digress....
| Quote: | | Quote: | | I used to use this principle when hand-walking down the road for hoof conditioning (and to create a bit of wear to save on trimming) - alternating between the tarmac and the grass verges. |
What ever the bio-mechanics involved, they did not include the use of A-V shunts(anastomoses).
Maybe you're right. Personally, I'm hesitant to make such an absolute statement. |
ROFL! You made an absolute statement but can't provide anything to substantiate it but expect everyone to accept it as fact. But when pressed, cannot or will not offer even a scintilla of supporting evidence/documentation for that which you propose. And people wonder why I'm a cynic and a skeptic.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | If he has a choice of footing, he can alternate pressure on various parts of the foot if an area becomes overworked or sore. Quite often they will stand toe-down in deep footing - which actually wads the surface up under the rear part of the foot to take the weight while loosening all the tendons a little. |
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Which tendons, precisely, are loosened? If laxity is induced in the DDFT, what happens to the SDFT, the Extensor tendons, the Suspensory ligament, the collateral ligaments, the annular ligaments, the suspensory ligament(s) of the navicular bone, the sesmoidian ligaments, etc? And lets not leave out the laminae in the area of the toe, the sole corium, and for good measure, the coronary corium, especially that which is located in the 11:00 - 1:00 position above the hoof capsule.
| Quote: | Toe down stance is indicative of caudal hoof pain but your understanding of the mechanics is somewhat flawed. It is true that the horse is attempting to lessen weight bearing in the caudal part of the hoof, and that initially, some minor tendon laxity is achieved, however, the surface under the heels is not taking up any more of the weight than it would were the horse standing flat. In fact, mechanically, it is supporting less because the horse is intentionally shifting the weight forward and off the heels. Just as in most instances of laminitis or founder, the horse shifts its hoof weight bearing rearward to relieve weight bearing by the front of the hoof/sole, particularly in the area in front of the true apex of the frog.
I'll definitely get back to this one later as you have another post on the same topic that is best addressed simultaneously.
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I will, less than breathlessly, await your reply. |
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Blue Flame
Member
Joined: 02 Feb 2009
Posts: 975
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| RickB. wrote: | And my response was to point out the effects of The Law of Unintended Consequences..
This is different from moving between footing firmness, how? And why are weight shifts 'notwithstanding'? |
The difference is that if the pad becomes uncomfortable, the horse has to compensate by altering something within his body - whereas if the surface becomes uncomfortable, the horse can merely change surfaces. It is my opinion that a choice of surfaces carries the lesser risk of unintended consequences than a surface that is stuck to his foot that he cannot remove on his own.
Please don't take this as a slight against orthotic support - it is not my intention to imply that at all. Rather, for those not fully equipped and educated in the use of such devices, I believe there is less risk of unintended consequences by providing a choice of footing to the horse instead.
| RickB. wrote: | | Doesn't matter. Its not where he stands but how he stands as you so eloquently demonstrate in your counterpoint. |
See above. The difference is whether the horse stands how he wants or how he must in order to be relieved of discomfort.
| RickB. wrote: | | How does standing on a bridge load the hoof peripherally and , absent frog pathology, not also load at least the back 1/4-1/3 of the frog? |
At the risk of opening the door on a tangent about what constitutes a pathological frog . . .
Because my horse has concave feet, his frogs are no taller than his heels, frogs are more compliant than the rest of the external hoof (at least they are on every hoof I've seen), the bridge is made of flat wood - he is obviously bearing the weight on the periphery of his foot. Therefore, his feet would be peripherally loaded.
| RickB. wrote: | | Further, if environmental debris/surface has packed into the commissures, then that area remains loaded as well. |
Specifically, in the example I gave, maybe I didn't make it clear enough that plugging wasn't occuring when I wrote: | Blue Flame wrote: | | The pumice riversand in our arenas is not to his liking as it provides too much frog pressure for him. Other arenas with more dirt in the sand so that it plugs up into the collateral grooves and shares some of the pressure with the sole are more to his liking. |
More generally, for footing that does plug ok - have you never witnessed a horse kick or stomp the solar plug out of his hoof? Would the horse have that option with a boot and pad?
It would also depend on the relative compliance/fluidity/viscosity of the plugged material versus the surface being stood on. Wet mud in the solar plug might help share the load if the horse happened to be standing on wet mud - but not if he was standing on hard pack.
| RickB. wrote: | | What happened to your observation of the static horse adjusting its stance incrementally through subtle or not so subtle changes in limb position, loading, etc? |
Patterns of compensation - unintended consequences. I would rather that the horse stand comfortably based on the footing of his choice than enter into compensatory patterns trying to alleviate discomfort from a device strapped to his foot. As above, on the one hand he just changes where he stands as necessary while on the other hand he has to change how he stands (compensate).
Its late here and I'm recovering from the flu . . . . to be continued another day. |
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PasoBaby_CarolU
Site Admin
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 9014
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| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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OK...I have a question then. With a laminitic horse that is in pain, what do you do? Since the horse needs exercise for blood flow, and blood flow for healing, then the horse needs exercise to heal. But the horse is in pain, so where is the 'happy medium?" This is why I like casts, I feel the foot is stabilized so that the horse can walk, pump blood, and heal. I'm not sure that you can do this just with a surface (which surface?), or is it safe to exercise the horse at all? Stall rest and ice only get you so far.
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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos
"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."
Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar
"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt |
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Blue Flame
Member
Joined: 02 Feb 2009
Posts: 975
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:01 am Post subject: |
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Carol,
I see the points you raise in three contexts:
1. What stage of laminitis the horse is in.
Yes, in the recovery phase of laminitis - repairing the damage - increased circulation and metabolism are beneficial.
In the initial stages of onset, when laminitis trigger factors are present in the circulatory system - increased circulation and metabolism might actually make things worse. Adding the mechanical stresses of movement and exercise during onset could then constitute a double assault on the laminae.
This is kind of the reverse (but not contradictory) situation to the discussion I am having with Rick B - the difference being the origin of the contaminant.
If you will, go to the following link of Dr. Pollitt's "PUTTING OUT THE FIRE - LAMINITIS PREVENTION" and scroll down to Table 1. Look for the word "Vasoconstriction" in that table in the right hand column which lists the possible benefits of cryotherapy. Think about it in terms of the metabolic assault on the laminae during the onset phase. http://www.nzerf.co.nz/Attachment...%20-%20Laminitis%20Prevention.pdf
2. What a hoof cast does to stablise the foot that is different to what sole support does.
IMHO,
A hoof cast reduces pain and stress on the laminae by limiting the bending of the walls away from the rest of the hoof and by limiting hoof mechanism.
Sole support, whether by pad or footing, reduces pain and stress on the laminae by limiting the downward displacement of the structural hoof internals relative to the hoof walls - dependant upon the amount of compliance available in the sole itself.
3. Whether the horse is stationary or moving (linked to 1. above)
Once the horse is moving we have increased downward forces due to impact and increased breakover forces.
You mention the words pain and balance in your post - and rightly so. Pain, while not pleasant, can be what prevents a horse from doing more damage to itself. Consider a horse that is laminitic but pain free. In a bout of pain free movement, that horse could place more torque on P3 via the DDFT than its laminae are capable of resisting. Pain can prevent that from happening - but will also have the consequence of causing the horse to adopt patterns of compensation.
I know from past discussions that you are fully aware of the implications of pain relief and anti-inflammatories, and the subsequent responsibility to prevent the horse from further damaging itself once pain relief is given.
Neither sole support nor a hoof cast can relieve the tension between the DDFT pulling on P3 from one side and the laminae resisting that force on the other. All that can be done is to either limit the movement or reduce the breakover forces.
Soft footing can reduce breakover forces to some extent. However, as Rick B. so vehemently points out, this too can have unintended consequences - I would add, even moreso in the moving horse. Alternatively, appliances can be fitted to reduce breakover forces - depends what materials and expertise you have at your disposal.
Inversely proportional to the extent that breakover forces can be reduced and/or pain relief given, the horse will enter into compensatory movement. Where a hoof cast and/or sole support can reduce pain by limiting mechanical stresses, it does not block the beneficial side of pain from preventing further damage via breakover/DDFT tension. Where anti-inflammatories and pain drugs are concerned . . . this following quote is from the document I linked above:
| Quote: | | When the laminitis process is triggered, there is virtually nothing, by way of drug therapy, that will stop its relentless progress. The administration of a nonsteroidal antiinflammatory drug (NSAID) like phenylbutazone, during the developmental/acute stages, will abolish foot pain and create a more comfortable-looking horse, but the disease continues unabated. This creates an ethical dilemma; balancing the need to alleviate pain and suffering against the realisation that most of what is administered is only palliative. When NSAIDs are in use, the patient should be confined to a stall with deep bedding. Exercise, while under the influence of painkillers, such as phenylbutazone, is contraindicated. |
Anyway, coming back full circle to pads versus footing. It is probably more convenient to go with the orthotics for a moving horse, assuming you can't take a choice of surfaces along with you or your exercise trail does not have a choice of surfaces (i.e. soft grass verges beside tarmac). For a stationary horse, well it would depend on the resources of the caregiver - including access to the necessary orthotics versus varied footing material, time to observe, skill to detect and interpret compensatory posture and change the orthotic as necessary versus giving the horse a choice of footing from which to seek comfort.
As an aside: Do I need to continuously place IMHO all over my posts? should I put it it my signature? or can it be assumed a given? as it seems to be the source of a lot of contoversy for some. In my country, tort law is almost non-existent - perhaps that explains the differences in weight given to statements. |
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