It's About The Horse

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9014

I was doing some research this morning on flexing to see if I could find good explanations of flexing and what should be done. Kind of interesting because I found a lot of articles on reasons NOT to flex, especially vertically.

http://horsemanpro.com/articles2/rollkur2.htm

And I found this supporting flexion: http://www.lesvogt.com/training_articles/flex-ability.html

But I also found this (and I should add that Dr. McGreevy is a noted equine biomechanics "expert." And just to note, IMO the word "expert" would be applied to those with peer-review articles, such as this one):

http://www.journalvetbehavior.com...1558-7878%2810%2900060-2/abstract

And lateral flexion:

http://www.horsemanpro.com/corres...e/horses-neck-lateral-flexing.htm

Kind of puts it all in a different light. I'm not sure what I think about it yet. I have flexed for years now...and I rode for decades before that without flexing, doing cattle work, showing, timed events, trail riding...and still had athletic and flexible horses. So, now I really need to THINK about all this.
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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

AlythLong · Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:23 pm Post subject:

I'm just starting to sort out in my mind the need/possibilities of the differences between yielding and holding a contact. Is it possible to obtain both and if so how?? Much food for thought and comments would be welcome! Alyth

Clarissa · Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:32 am Post subject:

I think this horsemanpro guy might be a misogynist

I couldn't read Dr. McGreevy's article because it required me to log in.
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Clarissa · Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:10 pm Post subject:

Lateral Flexion by Ludvik K Stanek a.k.a Lee Stanek

I read much of this guy's website & made the observation about him that I just posted above.

however regarding his take on flexion & steering the horse, it reminded me of a piece of homework Ken Faulkner gave us to think about one day:-

You are always riding on a bend, either to L or R, never straight ahead. If you are riding perfectly straight you have incorrect rein/ bit contact, ie a square feel which is wrong according to pretty much every trainer. You maybe riding directly forward straight but you are not riding your horse ‘straight ahead’. You always have a dominant lead & rein, either L or R meaning your horse is always on this or that bend even if it is so slight it is virtually imperceptible. As you change focus you change dominant lead also, involving seat, legs, hands, eyes, body, rein position, etc. You stay on this or that bend until the other is required.

This applies even when riding along a straight fence, rail or track. You can change leads whilst still moving directly forward with horse tracking almost true in it’s own tracks. I’m not talking about the likes of flying lead changes, rather referring to changing the dominant lead & focus in a moment in preperation for the next change of direction.
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cynthia peterson · Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:40 pm Post subject:

Carol, I do like your inquiring mind that always comes up with fantastic webpages full of information!

Clarrisa, I think you are so right. Flexing (not just forcing the head noodle fashion like Clint Anderson does) is the key to the horse "turning loose" like Ray Hunt says or like Nuno said, "the horse cannot give you his back without being curved laterally around the rider's leg." That's why dressage riders do those perfect circles, that's why Buck Brannaman has those short serpentines. We could even go further in this, of human body work. You have to get ANY body supple to achieve even (correct) development. Look at all the crooked horses and riders! Heck, watch people at any mall walking, leaning over, crooked necks, shoes run over. It's the same in horses. And the aim in human and horse is you cannot force this. It has to be done gently and in a slight stretch until you can get it any where good. Of course, horses tend to stiffen up when they know you are forcing them, and you will get no where that way. Even people do! Rider and horse must work on this every ride. You cannot hold a horse to go straight, you have to loosen them up, develop the muscles gently. The other clue is you have the right when you have them on the outside rein.

At home, try putting your hand on head and gently see which way you can touch your ear to your shoulder. Which way is easier? Where does your bend start (hip, ribs, shoulder, etc.) Do you have trouble weighing one seat bone more then the other? Work with yourself first, then you will be so much better getting it with the horse and in the saddle.

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9014

Cynthia, you nailed the problem I have with Stenak's statements.

I myself will sit at my computer for HOURS doing data and not come 'to' until I have monster pains in my neck and back from being stiff, and years ago I cracked teeth my jaw was so tight. I do PT every day and have muscle groups that work together well, and others, not so well. I bought a step aerobics app and for the life of me have not coordinated half the moves in it, and definitely not at the speed those young women get. So I have my own empirical data on why stretching IS important. And I might go so far as to apply it even farther to why I stretch several regions of the neck, and the whole neck. I have to do that with my own neck, not just the area around previous injuries.

I do think a young, athletic horse will keep itself in pretty good shape IF it has the opportunity. I just don't see a lot of horses who have that option, and as horses age, they slow down and stand around a lot, easily getting stiff on one side or the other and getting out of shape. Horses kept in stalls have a much harder time giving themselves exercise, and are frequently punished when they try...stall "vices."

I personally think stretching and warming up muscles and joints is as good and important for a horse as it is for a human. Dr. McGreevy's abstract that observed the same flexibility in wild horses that is observed in horses that receive a good warm up to me is testament that it IS important, not really testament that it does no good. He probably should have observed a third group, of horses that are stalled with no routine stretch exercises and compared them to the wild horses. Although I do agree with his title statement that "equestrians" get so wrapped up in the belief that it is critical, they do it to the exclusion of other exercises...much like Clinton does with his repeated neck flexing. I also see this done in excess in my breed - to the point that horses that are over-flexed will flex and 'lock-up' there to avoid stressful situations. It's very hard to get a horse past this once he's developed it.

I just thought it would be interesting to get other people's views on it. So many people DO something JUST BECAUSE they are told it is good for their horse, or so-and-so said it was good for them. As I think about it, neck flexing, both vertical and lateral, is like 10-meter circles and hind quarter yields, and stepping under and, and, and.... Anything can be overdone.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9014

This reminded me of a story that I was told...

A young man watched his young wife prepare a ham for dinner. She cut the ends off the ham and placed it in the baking dish, and then into the oven. He asked her why she did this and her reply was that her mother always did it this way. A few months later at a family dinner, her mother was preparing the ham, and so the man asked his mother-in-law why she cut the ends off the ham. Her reply was that she did it this way because HER mother always did it this way. So, finally a year or so later they were at a family reunion and Grandmother was preparing the ham. The man went into the kitchen and asked the same question of her. Her reply was "So it will fit in the pan."

There are so many things like this that get passed down, often without thought. Getting on the near side of the horse, from the cavalry days so the sword wouldn't get in the way, is one of those things we just DO "because.." I was riding in a Wilderness area and getting on Zar from the off side where a nice rock was. A man with our group gave me all kinds of greif that I was harming my horse because "horses are innately left-sided and you hurt them doing things on the right side." I asked him what he'd do if there was a drop off on the left side and uphill on the right and he had to get off. His answer was that he'd tip the horse over if he got off the right. It was pretty scary..the man was the local 4-H leader and teaching kids this junk.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

cynthia peterson · Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:53 pm Post subject:

Carol, it's been so darn HOT, we are all stuck inside. My horses actually run from their loafing shed just to get a drink and back!

Linda had a thing on a Feldenkrais Method instructor who came to give her lessons (and she shared in a SC magazine.) I can't think of her name right now, but that was a good idea. The trouble with getting our body fit and all the kinks straightened out, is we somehow default back to it without hard work! The same thing with our horses. I had one line of very talented horses that were born one sided. Or,- maybe it was because the mother let them nurse on HER good side. At any rate it was lots of extra work to get them even.

Clinton Anderson is a very focused person that tends toward excess. That constant bending, I seen him bend for half the day at a clinic on the horse he was sitting on!

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9014

So, what do you think of this statement?

cynthia peterson · Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:48 pm Post subject:

Well, Carol, I would say few people even know THEY are unbalanced, let alone a horse. The very first thing of importance is to have the horse loose, that's "getting the back." If you can't keep the horse calm and soft, you got nothing. Being collected is a mute point without that. If a rider can't be aware of everything the horse is doing before things go bad, there is no sense picking on him. If they can't get with the horse to time the aids for collection, there will be no collection, just a fake headset. Yes, just slop along is better if that's all the rider can do. I've seen plenty of little kids and ponies racing around happy that way. But, if you want the best you be, the best your horse can be, collection is going to be on your list. Collection being tuning your horse to use their body to the best. Would the horse like it as well as the rider? I think so. Just like I feel good when I get that creak in my neck worked out because I worked on getting my body balanced. I feel great, look great!

PS, I would say the " no extreme work" in your quote is worth a lot too. And I would say few people ride a horse long enough to train, let alone damage the horse (except it's mind.)

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9014

Oh, I wasn't talking about you...or most of us students who really WORK at riding right and mostly making sure our horse is right. I would hope that we'd all pay close enough attention to our horses to know when we are hurting them.

What I was thinking about - and where I think he was coming from - was the number of riders - and amount of pain they put their horses through - "trying" to do something they have no idea of, and doing it just because they were told it was what you are supposed to do. Flexing, vertical or lateral, is an excellent example. There are many others...I was in tears watching a Western "Pleasure" class at a show here a few weeks ago. You could just see the soul in those horse's was somewhere deep, far away. They were comatose.

I see people "collecting" their horses for long periods of time trail riding, because they were told to (gymnasizing??). Since the riders have no idea what they are doing, or even what they are trying to achieve, don't you think those horses might be better off if the rider was instead so much dead weight, and the horse could carry 'it' like a pack, and at least have the freedom of choice...how to carry "IT." ??

Hmmm, now I have to think about this too.

_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Blue Flame · Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:45 pm Post subject:

Carol, thank you so much for posting the horsemanpro we link. I used to read that stuff years ago until the site seemed to go down - I thought, permanently.

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9014

I did want to get back on this....I had Dr. Henneman work on Rosie today, and I have to apologize, there was so much going on between Rosie and Ruby that this question slipped my mind.

But, if Rosie's Rx is any indication of how she feels about stretching and flexing, then I would have to say that she believes in both....Rosie has the next 3 days off after the adjustment, then a regime of stretching and flexing on the ground, before going back under saddle. I honestly wouldn't think a Vet/Chiro would ever be against flexing and stretching....she even gave me some she does to help her with her hands, as I'm having trouble with mine.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Julie · Member Joined: 07 Feb 2009 Posts: 1297

Go back to the skeleton - look at Gillian Higgins work.Where does the spine flex, which bits don't even flex - its eye opening!
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AlythLong · Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:52 am Post subject: