It's About The Horse

ErinR76 · Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Posts: 504 Location: Austin TX

okay I've heard this term mentioned here and there. I don't know if we have anyone here that has investigated this guy's approach. I'm checking it out and this message is brought to you by Erin Rodriguez, investigative reporter:

"“The unrelenting power of the human ego, bent on conquest, and prodded by the seemingly overwhelming avarice of financial/material gain, the accolades of peers, and what has been traditionally accepted as ‘proper’ is a trifective opiate and force to be reckoned with that sometimes blinds us to the unintended consequences of our actions, and the ruination of the Horse."

~ Author Unknown ~

Here's a page from his website. It sounds like its similar in some ways to Carolyn Resnick's method but EVEN MORE SO. Maybe also similar to Cynthia Royal's approach. In any case, what I've seen is refreshing in some similar ways. I'll report back with my findings.

http://www.friendshiptraining.org/index2.html
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A horse is NOT a large dog that thinks like a person.

ErinR76 · Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Posts: 504 Location: Austin TX

http://friendshiptraining.org/doc...LY_TEMPERAMENTAL_OR_BUCKING_R.pdf
_________________
A horse is NOT a large dog that thinks like a person.

ErinR76 · Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Posts: 504 Location: Austin TX

Okay. So what this method is based on is this. In wild horse herds, there are many types of relationships. mare/foal. stallion/mare. sibling. extended family. but there is another type of relationship that some horses form and that is that of a special pair bond, or 'friendship' with one other horse. There are certain sequential interactions taken to begin this relationship and more complex actions later to develop the relationship.

This is less a 'training method' than a way of life or way of interacting with the horse. Here is an interesting summary.

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oNWV...iendship%20Training%20Program.pdf

Agonizingly, the dude charges a one time fee (equivalent to the cost of boarding your horse at a training facilty, which around these parts, is close to $600-800 bucks) to teach you the method. So I doubt I'll be joining anytime soon. But the upswing is lifetime support. I bet with some sleuthing, I can find out the nitty gritty for much less!

More to come...
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A horse is NOT a large dog that thinks like a person.

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9031

Very nice Erin...I think his philosophy and mine mesh very well. I particularly like the link on the bucking. I'll have to post that on another forum where people seem positive that horses do these things to be mean, or they make up their mind to be a jerk that day, or they don't want you to ride.
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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9031

I wanted to add something. I don't remember who on here made a comment months back about making the 'work,' fun. Smiling, laughing, being totally positive with your horse. I am a very goal-oriented person and it took that post to make FUN my goal. I changed a lot of how I spend time with my horses. I still have one who thinks we have to be VERY SERIOUS, but she does respond to smiles. My others think that all the loves, and rubs, and smiles and FUN is just that, FUN. I must tell Rosie she is a genius 10 times a day. She eats it up.

I know Pat always talks about fun and using your imagination, but it all was still very goal-oriented for me (which I still am), but it was whoever's post about the FUN part I was really missing. I think when you smile, your whole body smiles too and the horses enjoy it also.

I wanted to add this because I think it goes very well with his philosophy of friendship training.

Good stuff.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Hertha · Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:43 pm Post subject:

With clicker training, where the primary reinforcer is food, it is easy to build in a secondary reinforcer of joyful comment, like yes, good, hooray, wow, which tells the horse he is on the right track and to keep going because a click/treat is coming soon.

The 'soon' will gradually become further and further down the track until the click and treat can be at the very end of a rather long sequence of events.

But even if not using food as a reinforcer, just using release, the joy/fun/admiration emotion I think is easily and happily picked up by the horse.
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PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9031

Erin, I'm just going to bet that between PNH, Buck, Carolyn Resnick and Clicker training, you have all the tools to do Friendship based training. I doubt that you'd learn enough for the $600 to make it worth while. Someone who's never done other methods, yes, it is probably worth it.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

ErinR76 · Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Posts: 504 Location: Austin TX

Ya I know I could probably get along without it...but it's still eating at me! I'm a knowledge junkie.
_________________
A horse is NOT a large dog that thinks like a person.

Clarissa · Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:03 am Post subject:

Erin I’d be inclined to say that $6-800 is cheap in anyone’s $’s! When I was trying to teach people to not be so task oriented & work with their horse at liberty so that the truth is always infront of them, it took about a year to change most habits & begin to have the person develop an understanding & for the pennies to start dropping. For that I charged $1000 (if paid upfront) for 1x3hr session fortnightly for 10mths or $90 per session.

So if you are thinking of learning a whole new equine psychology understanding process, I would say you need to allow at least a year & if the guy is worth his salt & honestly knows his stuff, the amount you mentioned is cheap.

I really liked the statement in your first post. Unintentional consequences. They are just such a powerful thing that can have ever lasting affects either good or bad.
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Most of L4 PNH achieved WooHoo!! happy10

ErinR76 · Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Posts: 504 Location: Austin TX

Clarissa, that sounds like A BLAST. But HOW DID YOU FIND PEOPLE willing to do what you set out to teach them? How'd you find those people?! (not even asking about the money.) If I could find those people around here, I'd LOVE to teach them!

Below is an excerpt from one of the documents on the FT yahoo group. In it it talks about how trying to 'be dominant' over the horse can work against you if your purpose is to have a real bond. Very interesting.

Researchers from many disciplines have studied dominance and aggression in animals, often in
the hope that it will aid the understanding of such behaviour patterns in human societies
(Manning and Dawkins 1992). However, the consequences of social dominance appear lower
for the horse than in some other species for example, the wolf, and arguably humans as well.
First, the horse's primary motivation must be survival, and second, social dominance carries
less of a reproductive advantage. In the wolf, only the dominant individuals reproduce and the
reproductive activities of subordinates are suppressed so that the activities of the whole pack
ensure the survival of the dominant animals' cubs (Zimen 1976, Derix et. al. 1993). In feral
horse populations most mares within harems produce offspring, and even bachelor stallions
appear to have access to some matings (Miller 1981). Therefore, as horses can establish an
enduring social order, reinforcing the dominance relationship between individuals is of
comparatively low importance and this must have implications for the human-horse
relationship. Equestrian traditions which are constantly concerned with exerting the

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dominance of the rider over the horse could appear, therefore, to be misguided. For if humans
repeatedly attempt to reinforce their dominance over the horses in their charge, it should be
recognised that the natural equine response will be avoidance. If the horse is increasingly
assuming the role of a companion animal this would seem far from an ideal strategy.
_________________
A horse is NOT a large dog that thinks like a person.

ErinR76 · Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Posts: 504 Location: Austin TX

Ok so in that same document I find this:

Bonded pairs associate closely, grazing and resting together, and indulge in bouts
of mutual grooming (Fig. 3) and affiliative neck overlapping.

An appreciation of the importance of play to the horse under natural conditions also provides
an alternative approach to understanding the human-horse relationship. Play within peer
groups has a vital role in the development of the horse with up to 75% of the kinetic activity
of foals devoted to play. Play continues to be an important activity even in maturity (Fraser
1992). Maynard Smith (1982) demonstrated in his work on game theory, that playing games
involves learning sets of rules, so it has been argued that during the process of domestication
the naturally high levels of movement and social play have been channelled into work and
recreational equestrian activities (Fraser 1992). The process of learning the rules of play can,

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therefore, explain the socialisation and training of horses, with horse and human acting as
partners in interspecific social play.

Interspecific communication.

Body postures, or outlines, play an important role in communication and co-ordinating group
activities. As horses are primarily visual communicators they are extremely sensitive to subtle
changes in the body language of their companions (Waring 1983). The alarm posture of the
horse serves to alert the herd to possible danger and is a posture of high tension. Sensitivity to
displays of bodily tension is also an example of their communication which they generalise
towards humans. Horses react to tension in humans with the same alarm as if it were
exhibited by equine companions.

So I guess in FT you want to do all of these things: not try to assert dominance per se, with the exception of keeping your self and your space safe; grooming, resting, playing.

I know Chuck has specific exercises that he will teach to the enrolled student and will give guidance as to how best to proceed with your individual horse. Also there is the building of simple commands (voice and body language) to the horse to stay, come, back, etc), and be able to walk around the horse in a circle while he stays put. There is more of course.

So who's going to sign up?!

_________________
A horse is NOT a large dog that thinks like a person.

Clarissa · Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:32 pm Post subject:

Clarissa · Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:48 pm Post subject:

Regarding the assertion of dominance as a training method. There are times when I find mine are carrying on like spoilt brats & need pulling into line with stern words or certain actions I make that alerts them to my mood.

However generally it's a 50/50 or thereabouts relationship where I don't usually have to do much to get my way. They're more than happy to oblige mostly because it's in their best interests or it's what they want to do anyway.

When it comes to 'work play' I ease them into it usually by increasing the energy & begin incorporating 'tasks' so that after a short time they are into full lesson mode without even realizing it. Remembering that it's a long while since I used a halter for training purposes. The exception to that is when I was doing the straightness training with Sonny but I always did the 'workplay' first which ended alongside where the surcingle & long reins hang under the house.

So general raising of horses to be upstanding citizens type interaction for me has always been more or less intuitive with the NH overlay. Well it works for me. thumbleft

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http://clissats-own-page.blogspot.com/
Most of L4 PNH achieved WooHoo!! happy10

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9031

Erin,

I am not sure that this person really understands herd dynamics. Horses are herd animals and they need Leaders. In your "herd of two" either you are the Leader or they are...every minute of every day. I don't like the word "dominance" as he is using it, it sounds a lot like "force" and I don't believe in force training. But, there is a difference between forcing a horse and being a Leader. Being a Leader is critical. There are horses you can get away with being "just a friend" with, but most horses will either start dominating you, or will not trust your leadership when they need a leader IF you are "just a friend."

Take the two buddy horses he is talking about. When something scary happens they both do what? They look at the herd leader horse for guidance. You want to be THAT horse.

I like the term "benevolent dictator."
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

ErinR76 · Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Posts: 504 Location: Austin TX

you're right in that he needs to use the language that he doesn't want to use. What are you doing when you ask a horse to back, stay or come? You're leading. So even if he doesn't want to call it that, that's what he's doing. You still can't deny, though, that he is acting like a benevolent leader and that he does respect the right of individuality and choice of the horse which is of course wonderful, and you do that too.

Okay taking the two buddy horses he is talking about. I had two of these at a place I boarded at. Breeze was the herd leader (herd of eight), but honestly, Valentine, in their relationship of two, could move her, just as easily as she could move Valentine. It truly was an equal relationship, as far as my human perceptions could perceive, and believe me I pondered and observed this relationship for a good three years and could never decide which of the two was 'dominant' or 'leader' over the other one. It was a true give and take and they would switch roles.

Clarissa, Yes! spoilt brats!! As much as I don't like to, I have to 'get onto' sasha about this once in a while, such as when she needs her feet trimmed and she wants to get back to the herd. So sorry, just a fact of life, Miss Priss

_________________
A horse is NOT a large dog that thinks like a person.