It's About The Horse

Gallop On

A bit of background info: My mare, May (RBE/LBI. When she's unconfident, she's extroverted, but when she's confident, she's introverted. And she loves cookies, very, very much

) has some major imbalance issues. I think some of them are related to physical things she's learned over the years, and some of them are linked to emotions. Anyway, I'm pretty sick and tired of how she moves, so I'd like some advice on how to get her to have a nice, quality way of going!

Here's the general overview of her movement:

~ Walk: Fine, a little choppy when she's nervous, but I can get her walking with her neck arched and her body pushing herself along. Here's a ref pic, although I can get her more uphill than this. Also, please ignore my failure of asking her to turn properly

~ Trot: Really icky. This is typically how she goes, and it's worse when she's nervous:

Though when she's calmed down, I can get her to lower her head a bit, like this. Although her nose isn't tucked in and she's not as collected as I'd like her to be.

~ Canter: Complete mess....I think I finally got a sane canter just a few weeks ago and she STILL went around with her head up in the air.

For the record, here are some examples of what I am going for!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCXWydjClvE&feature=fvw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh7Twe2MnVY&feature=related

Other issues she has is the Circling Game (she either has her head sticking up, or low when I ask her to walk or jog, but her nose is always poking out. Also her ribcage points away from me. Can't tell if this is a physical or emotional thing, we have a good relationship but in the Circling Game, she ALWAYS sticks her nose to the outside, even when she's paying attention to me and left brain.) and cantering, both in the saddle and on the ground (she used to be a carriage horse, so she was specifically trained not to canter. Even though she knows how to now, and picks it up without going into a million strides of a death trot, she still doesn't go RIGHT into it. Practice makes perfect but any tips on how to get her to pick it up easier would be great.)

Also, a big factor is her RBE-ness. I'm pretty sure she's linked extroverted movement (basically....anything faster than a jog) to going RBE. If I ask her to go into a working trot, she freaks out. It's very subtle, but she does tense up, braces her neck, etc. Asking for a canter makes her leap into it and her topline because very flat. She'll also toss her head. It's gotten a LOT better, lots of circles and repetitive patterns helps her calm down, as well as half halts. But any tips on how to teach your RBE that moving fast does not equal kicking in the 'must flee, or die!' mode would be great

Also, one last thing that I never thought I'd be considering, gadgets. I have a surcingle and some driving lines, in hopes that I could help her learn that she can move nicely on the ground, and it has helped some. So what about side reins? I wouldn't be using them with the mindset of forcing her head in and down to creature a false collection, just for her to fix her head/neck/nose issues (when she is left brain, like I said, not going to force her head in and down while I chase her around and then work on creating a 'frame')

Sorry for the long post, but I think this is kind of the minimal amount of details for this situation. Tips/advice/stories/videos are very welcome

Chablis · Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:23 am Post subject:

I'm no expert but my RBE is the same way - real stress head and if you hold her back, she goes UP.

She is slowly starting to change her posture as she becomes more relaxed but I realised (thanks to my instructor) that I wasn't asking enough of her/directing all that energy appropriately so she was kind of running on the inside, or going up and never losing all the tension hence she resembled a kangaroo running around instead of a horse.

Now, I know when doing figure of eights, for example, I have to keep going until she flows when doing them and not when she offers cutting moves while changing directions.

Obvious to experienced people but wasn't to me as that was what I was previously taught (by other instructors).

As soon as this happened, she starts to engage her HQ's, use her back, lower her head, and blow out/chew. I find it interesting that Karen Rohlf does something similar in one of her dvds.

Another thing is lots of circles rather than straight lines so that she can move her feet without you feeling the need to hold her because that results in her bracing (from what I can see from the pictures - please correct me if I'm wrong).

The circles also help me relax (because I'm not letting an ex-racehorse bolt) and as it helps me, it also relaxes my mare so she calms/slows down.

While circling her, on the ground, I ask her put in more effort (so that she stops tuning out, stargazing, looking to the outside, pushing her ribs inside, etc), and then I wait. Interestingly, when I do this, she once again engages her HQs, lifts her back, bends to the inside (instead of the outside), reaches forward, down and out, and blows out.

Then I leave her alone and let her experiment with the new feeling.

She is starting to hold the newer, more relaxed position for longer.

When riding, my instructor showed me another techinque to help us relax/stretch.

Starting at halt, I comb either my right or left hand up the rope and obtain a steadier feel while I close my hand at the same time as combing up (not back). To clarify, I hold the middle of rope in my left hand and use my right hand to comb from down nearish the horses mouth (as far down as your hand will reach while you sit in a normal centred riding position) to up near my other hand (which is held straight up in the air with a steady feel on it).

You give on the rope as soon as your horse responds ie even if you have only closed two fingers on the rope. You want the horse to be light and you want to progress the technique.

Once my horse understands to bend her head either right or left, at the halt, with only a soft feel on the rope, you then progress to doing this at walk and then trot. I was riding in the rope hackamore. Others started with the hackamore and then progressed to using a snaffle bridle.

This technique really clicked with my mare and I as she could, once again, move her feet and I could allow it. She started to lift her back, use her HQ's, and stretch forward, down and out, while blowing out. Felt wonderful.

It was very important to praise her whenever she experimented with the new feeling by allowing her to stop. She really started tuning into this.

Hope this is of some help. The others will no doubt have lots of helpful advice for you.

Edited to add: I can't remember if it was two or three Parelli savvy club dvds ago but Pat rode a RBE mare who get looking to the outside of the circle and bracing her ribs to the inside.

He showed/discussed about helping her become more physically comfortable in order to help the emotional and mental side ie she was physically uncomfortable so would keep running off/bracing.

Really good demo.

I have never seen him actually do this type of demonstration before.
_________________
Please support Equine Victims of Abuse/Neglect by supporting Quest Equine Welfare in rehabilitating these amazing horses.

http://questequinewelfare.org/

Clarissa · Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:48 am Post subject:

Gallop On you need to read the whole of Dr Deb Bennett’s website, along with many threads on her forum & follow her instructions.

Your stirrups are too short, your seat is too far back, being behind the sweat line that runs down from the loins instead of infront of it. Are you totally sure the saddle isn’t hurting her back? You may be working your horse in a ‘frame’ trying to force the ‘shape’ you want rather than develop the correct way of going & balance which causes the horse to achieve the ‘right shape’ for itself.

You can’t use leather straps (ie reins etc) & firmer heels to force a horse into a frame & expect to get away with it for very long.

Here is a good set of 9 videos about saddle fit:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2mKz0uP_K8

Here is Dr Deb’s website:-
http://www.equinestudies.org/
Following, is an excerpt from a forum response on her website. You should read the whole of this response at least & learn which muscles she is talking about. Here is the link:-
http://esiforum.mywowbb.com/view_...um_id=1&highlight=plasma+hand

Here is the excerp:- When a horse correctly collects, it will coil the loin, lift the thoracolumbar spine, raise the root of the neck, and reach into a neck telescoping gesture. This results in the top of the neck lengthening away, pushing the poll forwards over the nose, and opening the gap between the mandible and the wing of the atlas……please continue reading her forum post by going to the above link. Note the part about the throat latch being open & why it's so important.

Have a good look at my photo of Sonny at the bottom of my posts to see what good shape might look like on the ground. It took a year to get this shape naturally at liberty unridden. This photo is 2yrs old now & still a long way to go to achieve the same result ridden. I must add that I am not able to ride very much. If I could I would expect it to take a year of riding to get this shape once it has been achieved on the ground at liberty.

Using a rope line to a halter will interfere with the horse’s balance which is why natural dressage people use a very light cordeo which just goes around the base of the neck & doesn’t influence the balance of the head. As the horse develops better balance & muscular strength to coil it's loins as DD describes, it will be able to carry it’s head & neck higher into the classical carriage you are craving. It should take about 5-7yrs to develop the finished classical shape & smooth proper gaits you described in your original post! That’s only attainable if everything falls into place & there are no set backs in horse’s physical & mental health.

Don’t get too bound up in the RB/LB thing. Proper collection & calmness will come no matter what horsenality if you do perfect practise in the proper position! It’s your responsibility to learn what the proper & perfect practise is. I’m hoping that’s why you are asking for help. The perfection will take years, not weeks/months.

Your mare is poking her inside shoulder & ribs at you because she is hiding her other side. The side that bends least (the side inside the rib bend) is the tight side & needs the most work to stretch it out physically & mentally. When it is as equally malleable as the side the ribs bend the most, your mare will allow her nose to be carried balanced on the line of the circle. That work is done from the ground having the horse going around you with it’s tight side on the outside of the circle. You have your horse on a very short rein or hold the ring of the bit & use gentle pressure rhythmically applied low on the ribs (where your heel sits) in an upward gesture in time with the beginning of the inside back foot step as the horse walks a small circle around you. That causes the tight side to bend around the outside of the circle. The inside back foot needs to step well under the centerline & belly button each stride preferably into the hoof print of the front foot. The toe of the inside front foot should point in the direction of the circle not out of it. Once that is easily achievable at the walk without more than phase 1, you can move to asking it at the jog & so on, stating on as big a circle as you can walk beside your jogging horse.

Pat talks about this in the old, old L2 videos I think (or it might be the L3) but I don’t think there is any reference since then as it is info you are supposed to pay for & learn from an instructor.

Also study sites like AND (art of natural dressage), Karen Rolf (dressage naturally) http://www.dressagenaturally.net/ see my list on the Helpful Links page for website addresses:- http://itsaboutthehorse.myfastfor...URAL_DRESSAGE_LINKS_about769.html

Read http://itsaboutthehorse.myfastfor...m_doing_with_Sonny_about2789.html to see how I have been working to get Sonny lighter on his front end so he can collect naturally. I know there are other threads on here about people getting their horses working better but I can’t think of them right now.

Another point to remember is that it is imperative that you have your horse working from both sides of it’s brain (ie that both sides are awake) before you get on & ask for collection. Prove she's fully awake by making sure she can give you both eyes when you are doing the 7games in random order. That’s what the 7games are for. By the time you are asking for collection you would be doing late L3 & L4 & by then you would be doing the 7games in a way that starts asking for natural collection right away. If you aren’t up to that stage yet in your own knowledge then you are asking too much too soon from both of you.

Good luck

_________________
http://clissats-own-page.blogspot.com/
Most of L4 PNH achieved WooHoo!! happy10

Niek · Member Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 1065

some good info from Clarissa, you must realise that with dressage there is lots of conflict as to how to achieve something. Their might be lots of conflicting info comming in this thread.. Its up yo you to decide what you feel most comfortable with

Il try to keep it short and to the point and in some form of order..

- Get her checked out her fysical state by a chiro,get her teeth checked out to. From a personal experience. The smallest little bit can cause major problems... Even in the scared and tense department. This can point to a whole range of issues.. To give a few examples :Magnesium shortage , kidney issues, misalignment in the crania can all lead to problems.

- Change the saddle and lengthen the stirrups atleast 3 holes.. But even then youll be to far back. Looks like a jumper/ all ultility. These nare not really suitable. And i think is the a big reason for all the tension..

-First get her soft.. Softness and flowing on the ground flows over to your riding. The better and smoother for example your falling leaf is , the smoother the rest will get..

- see how and if she can lead up real free... (Bill Dorrance exercise, made a big improvement in my pony)

- the neck round is an end result, not the first step... First get her to relax before you even worry about that.. get her to stretch. Find the best way that works for you. I think PK has the easiest to grasp way.. See if you can get his book or first dvd. But some form of softness is a prereq for this..

the rest should come more easy

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9031

Some good information above. I was having similar problems with Rosie and had Jamie (Hacienda del Sol on here) help me with better suppling and collection methods. I'll write him and ask him to chime in here. He certainly helped me and Rosie, and I wrote it all down to keep working on.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9031

Here is an excellent clinician on exercises for biomechanics, suppling and collection.

http://www.internationalacademyof...dacademicequestrianeducation.com/
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Niek · Member Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 1065

holy crap talk about a stupendously long url

... Not sure about his "enrollment" requirements but that might just be me.. The rest of his background seems really good though

Gallop On · Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:49 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the advice! I will definitely look into all the things that you guys have mentioned.

Chablis;

Niek · Member Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 1065

yes its in that book

cokey · Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 6:54 am Post subject:

Niek · Member Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 1065

jep cokey is correct... The build up of an all purpose will put you in the sofa seat position.. This is also the reason dressage riders cant sit properly in the corret position, and they decided to bring out a typical dressage saddle..

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9031

Sarah, this is how I'm starting my practice sessions now with all my horses (BTW you DO need to change your seat position to do them. Your legs are in a totally ineffectual position for leg aids. If you need a new saddle, you don't have to spend a lot, Wintec makes nice, affordable dressage saddles that you can always find used.)

On the ground...

1. Flexing the neck both sides. Change what areas you are flexing, so you flex both upper and lower spine. When doing near the poll, remember the horse can't turn and look back there, but side to side is good. Hold each flex until the horse relaxes in that position. I do 5 in each area, trade sides and repeat for 3 rotations. You can also do some carrot stretches back to the flank area and get a real LONG stretch.

2. Flex the topline by training the horse to lower it's head on cue. Again do 5-15 times.

3. Flex the body by moving the horse forward in a small circle around you. Forward motion is critical and get the horse to step under with their hind legs. To get a bigger step under, tap the horse just as the far side leg is reaching out. It has to make a bigger step first, before the inside leg does. Make sure the head is lower and curved inward to get a bend throughout the body. This exercise is described in Mark Russell's book, Lessons in lightness.

4. Once you have that good, on every other circle raise your head, change your focus and walk towards the shoulder, so you start doing half-passes in hand. The first ones won't be pretty, but soon you'll both be pros at it.

5. Set up the cones and back figure 8's. Not the simple one foot stepping at a time backs we do in PNH, but lower the head into a tuck position and add some impulsion. Make the horse go fast enough they are pulling themselves backwards with the hindquarters. It's work.

6. Once you are in the saddle, repeat all of the above. Things to remember are to squeeze-release your reins for your turns, keeping your focus on the track you want to go so your body and leg are in the right position.

7. Backwards is probably the best exercise you can do for the rearend. When going backwards, keep your focus 180 degrees and straight of the direction you are headed, this includes the turns. With legs, remember leg on, leg off. Make yourself good at this, so your right leg moves their back left leg, leg on, leg off. I like the reins to be really a check of forward motion, though until the horse learns this you might need to squeeze-release to get the backwards steps. It is CRITICAL that you do these with the horse's head DOWN in the correct position FIRST, so the horse curls their neck and body and uses the back muscles you need for collection. You might practice the Soft Feel exercises from the OLD Level 3. Always remember, squeeze-release.

I think if you do this exercise, stop, and go directly to a trot, you'll be surprised at the different frame your horse is in already.

You need to shorten your reins too.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Julie · Member Joined: 07 Feb 2009 Posts: 1297

I would go back to the saddle first.

The saddle does NOT fit - it is much too narrow in front, this is making the pommel higher, and pushing you into the position you are in, which is more than likely most of the problem. Have you a pic of her without you riding, with and without saddle. A good saddle in balance will be a huge help to you.

What saddle is it?

I would look at the saddle first as it will be causing problems with her back, and probably also causing problems with her back.

often people will blame the stirrup bars, but IMO the main causes are the saddle fit in the first place. PM if you need more info on fitting.
_________________
[IMG]

[IMG]

thelmanelle · Member Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Posts: 3248

I, too, agree about the saddle. I had to stop using my all purpose and get a Bates dressage saddle with a medium cair tree width for my horse. It has made a big difference in how I sit the walk, trot and canter. Horse can very slow and subtly get into frame as we begin a session.

She has really picked up in her body changes even starting at 15-16 years of age. So it can be done...we have been very slow about this for a year now. She is just now starting to look like some of the other dressage horses at the horses, instead of hollow neck and back and skinny.

It's slow and rewarding to see her improve. You can do it. The synthetic saddles are more reasonable, too.
_________________
A Good Apple Pie. II Corinthians 4:16-18

Niek · Member Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 1065