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Tigerlily
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Joined: 17 Sep 2010
Posts: 342
Location: Valley Springs CA
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 Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:54 pm Post subject: What IS contact?? |
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There are different stages and styles of contact and different reasons for using each of them.
making contact is just that a very light contact on the rein where you can just feel the mouth. you are not influencing anything as far as being on the bit or being biomechanically correct, a headset or anything. just making light contact.
the problem that i see most often with ANY kind of contact is that too many people do not understand or have the awareness or skill to KEEP the contact. if you see one or both reins getting a slight loop in it. often seen as a rider rises and falls in the post or bounces in the saddle while sitting. you will see this rhythmic dropping of the contact. for me..IMO...this can be very unsettling for the horse. just try holding someones hand that it constantly letting go, instead of a steady soft grip.
the game of contact is about not letting the horse nor the rider, drop the contact, no matter what way the horse moves his head, you will keep the contact. if he looks left, the left rein will be dropped if the rider does not bring thier left hand back to KEEP the contact. in some sense you would be applying just a hair more pressure than the horse and as the horse (his own idea) finally picks up the contact the rider would then release (at first) to show the horse the way. to show him he must 'hold your hand' as well. have you ever held someones hand where you were the only one holding? thier hand was limp? same concept when a horse finds release behind the contact. he is not holding your hand. some will define this as a head set. that would likely be what linda was doing prior to game of contact, to some degree, to cause him to earn his reins. either he was given the reins when he released OR given the reins when he 'behaved' and maintained his responsibilites.
game of contact is about more than the basic responsibilities, it is adding the responsibility to hold your hand as well
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True Genius does not fullfill expectations, True Genius shatters them.
Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a jackass from any direction.
http://www.naturalmannershorsemanship.blogspot.com/ |
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Tigerlily
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Joined: 17 Sep 2010
Posts: 342
Location: Valley Springs CA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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oops more....
once the horse gets the release by him reaching for the bit, you then start adding moments of holding each others hands in a mutual agreement that neither will drop it or let it go. you start with a few strides then release, then build from there to holding it for longer and longer periods.
_________________
True Genius does not fullfill expectations, True Genius shatters them.
Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a jackass from any direction.
http://www.naturalmannershorsemanship.blogspot.com/ |
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PasoBaby_CarolU
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Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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So that is Linda's "Game of Contact"?
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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos
"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."
Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar
"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt |
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merle
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Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 445
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:05 am Post subject: Re: What IS contact?? |
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| Tigerlily wrote: | | the problem that i see most often with ANY kind of contact is that too many people do not understand or have the awareness or skill to KEEP the contact. if you see one or both reins getting a slight loop in it. often seen as a rider rises and falls in the post or bounces in the saddle while sitting. you will see this rhythmic dropping of the contact. for me..IMO...this can be very unsettling for the horse. just try holding someones hand that it constantly letting go, instead of a steady soft grip. |
In a recent issue of the Eclectic Horseman Dr. Deb has a wonderful article about being on the bit (contact). It is a great article, she explains how a drape in the reins is the traditional and ideal for dressage. She uses photos of horses with the drape and those with a solid rein to illustrate how correct bio mechanics comes from the drape and not from the solid contact. The challenge to this is that the horse must be correct - mentally, physically, emotionally - to offer the self carriage with a drape. The rider cannot take the slack out and create the correct bio mechanics rather the horse must be ready to offer the correct bio mechanics when presented with the offer from the rider. It is about a true feel. Current dressage does not follow the drape concept, but IMO the drape is truly correct it is what 'on the aids' is.
The lack of consistency you are referring to is not the same as what I am referring to. The lack of consistency is not correct. IMO, addressing the lack of consistency does not result in a steady soft grip (contact) rather it results in feel via a drape in the reins.
I've been playing with this lately with my mare. If the pieces are correct you will engage, come round with a drape in the reins. If the pieces are not correct she will be hollow or dragging her butt or leaning on a shoulder etc... Once I address the reason for the incorrectness she will come round, engage, correct movement with the drape. To me that is the ultimate lightness, a thought of mine will become an action of hers. I'm moving away from the concept of contact and toward the concept of being on the aids. It will not win me any ribbons in a dressage show, but not placing in the current dressage world would be a compliment! |
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Hertha
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Posts: 2342
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:34 am Post subject: |
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Seems to me that if you can teach a horse with reward reinforcement to flex and push through on a cordeo and at liberty, then it is also possible when riding.
The aid would ask for the flexion, never to 'hold' it here, no matter how lightly. Gradually withholding the reward a little bit longer will build the duration.
Linda's 'contact game' sounds like pretty much from most standard books on dressage.
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AlythLong
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Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:25 am Post subject: |
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| Is there anywhere we can read about Lindas "contact game" if we don't belong to the SC? |
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PasoBaby_CarolU
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Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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I have to agree that what Michelle is describing is soft contact, as I've learned it in dressage. As Niek describes it, it should be like holding hands. The horse is carrying the bit and the rider is holding the reins softly so there is no hard or sharp contact with the bit.
What Merle is describing is along the lines of what I try to to do - eventually, having the horse carry the bit but the rider has no contact and relies on the other aides, the seat, legs, weight, and focus to guide the horse and ask for gait, speed, transitions, etc.
But, it depends on what I'm riding at the time. I think a draped rein is ideal for trail riding and freestyle type riding. I think you can do a lot - like the cowboy dressage - riding this way. But, you can't do precise high quality dressage without also having rein contact with the horse's mouth. You also need rein contact when doing many gymnacising things, like flexing, shoulders in, arcs, counter arcs, etc. And while some can eventually be accomplished with your body aides, you need rein contact for lateral education. I think soft, constant contact is much better then bumping on and off a bit for lateral work without a brace.
I don't think either has a lot to do with biomechanics though. A horse can be collected or strung out, braced or relaxed, hollow or bent, regardless of how the rider is holding the reins. While the head plays a part and balances the body, bio-mechanics comes from the entire body and collection comes from the rear-end.
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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos
"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."
Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar
"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt |
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merle
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Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 445
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU wrote: | | But, it depends on what I'm riding at the time. I think a draped rein is ideal for trail riding and freestyle type riding. I think you can do a lot - like the cowboy dressage - riding this way. But, you can't do precise high quality dressage without also having rein contact with the horse's mouth. You also need rein contact when doing many gymnacising things, like flexing, shoulders in, arcs, counter arcs, etc. And while some can eventually be accomplished with your body aides, you need rein contact for lateral education. I think soft, constant contact is much better then bumping on and off a bit for lateral work without a brace. |
Karen Rohlf said that the reins are only for indicating how much collection you want from you horse - how coiled you want the loins to be. That's all the reins do, thus one can do precision riding with a drape. As the seat, being on the 'aids' is what allows the rider to have precision. Dr. Deb's article showed horses doing high level dressage movements with a drape. The drape I'm referring to is not much at all, just a little bit of drop in the middle of the rein (if looking at the rein between the bit and the riders hands, the middle of that area will have a slight drop, or be a little bit lower).
I agree, at times you must reinforce what the 'aids' are asking for by having the bit contact the horse's mouth. Less educated riders would bump on/off the bit for lateral work - which absolutely causes brace. Higher educated riders can feel on/off the bit to reinforce lateral work while training the horse - that would not create brace.
Many different large groups of people having different definitions for contact - look at reining, hunter/jumpers, dressage, AQHA hunters etc...Very different pictures.
Edited to add. I've had this discussion - the precision requires contact discussion with many people. I realize that the majority of people say that contact with the bit is required for precision. This past summer a clinician's wife was slamming Karen Rohlf, saying that her bridleless riding with Monty was a horrible promotional clip. She said that a person cannot ride precision with out a bit and contact with that bit. I disagree, I see a lot of precision in Karen and Monty's ride. When riding freestyle with PNH I always maintained a high level of precision on a loose rein - how can you do a quality cloverleaf or bullseye or any other pattern without precision. For me, developing precision in the freestyle is what teaches the horse to be 'on the aids'. Then all you have to do is shorten the reins to remove slack to offer the feel to your horse - the horse will offer the feel back if they are mentally, physically and emotionally ready. It really can be that simple - the quality in freestyle, imo, takes much more time, focus to develop then quality in finesse. |
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PasoBaby_CarolU
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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Wasn't Monty originally trained with contact on a bit though? I'm not sure that he's the best example to use.
What I personally like is along the lines of what you are speaking about Merle, since Hempfling is my ideal. But I also am inclined to 'settle' for what is natural for the horse and what the horse offers as being 'enough.' I don't compete at anything that requires exact precision. This is why I always come back to 'different' vs. "right' or 'wrong'. What is good enough in my little arena is undoubtedly not in the medals in any kind of competition.
Even the discussion of soft contact vs. a drape with use of body aides totally relies on the few riders who do either correctly all the time.
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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos
"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."
Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar
"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt |
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merle
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Posts: 445
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU wrote: | | Wasn't Monty originally trained with contact on a bit though? I'm not sure that he's the best example to use. |
Monty had a life before Karen, but I don't think you could call him trained. Karen bought Monty for one dollar as he was going through trainers, bucking them off etc... I do not know how Karen proceeded with Monty - as in did she start with halter, then bit or did she do finesse with halter before the bit - not sure about that. But, the point the woman was making was that right then and there in that exact video while Karen was riding Monty without a bridle, that was when they were incapable of doing precision. It was not that Monty does not ever do precision, just that Karen/Monty are not capable of precision without a bit in the mouth. I hope I'm explaining that clearly, the discussion was not about how he was trained, but rather about how he was moving/responding without the bit. The point the woman was making was that one had to have a bit in the mouth any time you were to do precision work. For my point, the Monty/Karen video still works being that my point is you do not have to have a bit in the mouth or be 'on the bit' for precision, rather you can be on the 'aids' for precision. And, I do believe that most people will need to use a bit to reinforce the 'aids' until the horse learns what is wanted.
| PasoBaby_CarolU wrote: | This is why I always come back to 'different' vs. "right' or 'wrong'. What is good enough in my little arena is undoubtedly not in the medals in any kind of competition.
Even the discussion of soft contact vs. a drape with use of body aides totally relies on the few riders who do either correctly all the time. |
Totally agree, usually it is about different approaches, which are fine. A person needs to have the options to do what works for them and their horse. Not winning medals can be a big compliment, it seems that many disciplines are distorted. For example, western pleasure classes in the AQHA (paints and appaloosas also) they no longer retain the characteristics that would allow a horse to travel soundly over uneven ground etc... A friend used to be big in AQHA western pleasure but now is retired. He decided to take his champion wp horse for a ride to get the mail. It was a major fiasco, he said he would never ride the horse outside the arena again. I'm not picking on wp, as you can pick any discipline to illustrate the modern oddities that prevent the horse in the ring from actually excelling in the field. A friend used to train cutting horses in Oklahoma and he also worked on the cattle ranches in OK. The ring trained cutting horses could never spend the day cutting cows if they exerted that amount of energy on just one calf.
Too few riders are capable of being correct. Many people cannot do it due to physical - not riding enough to be the athlete that their horses need. Or mental, not having the knowledge, they just don't know better. And of course, emotional - some people just lose their patience or get frustrated. |
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PasoBaby_CarolU
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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Good points. I see many ex-show horses sold as "trail horses," when the only trail they've ever been on is the one between the barn and arena. 
Our discussion reminds me of one of Larry Whitesell's statements, and that is to have a better horse, you need to be a better rider. I totally agree, and it is so easy to focus on the horse and ignore our own horrible, inconsistent and off center habits. So easy to be lazy.
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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos
"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."
Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar
"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt |
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merle
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Posts: 445
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU wrote: | | So easy to be lazy. |
Or to blame the horse for our shortcomings. At least we have a place where we can discuss our thoughts, approaches, philosophies in order to better ourselves for our horses. I bet our horses 'enjoy' this forum as much as we do. |
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Tigerlily
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Joined: 17 Sep 2010
Posts: 342
Location: Valley Springs CA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU wrote: | | So that is Linda's "Game of Contact"? |
in a nutshell yes. but i think what is also in there is lifting and using the back, the 'reaching' for the bit. I have seen quite a few mastery dvd's on the subject, and a mini 1/20 in person with linda at the gold summit in fresno. but she was still working on the 'teaching' of it. she has since given the 'clinic' which i am SURE it will either be available for purchase in some manner, or to savvy club members in some manner.
while i think it should be FREE to savvy members as it is what SHOULD have been in L4 finesse, i put my money on it costing money.
she goes into a longer description, and i think she has blogged about it, and i know there is one article about it in one of this years savvy times magazines, cant remember which one....will see if i can find it.
as for contact vs NO contact, that is a whole different subject as to WHAT contact IS. I will be the first to admit, and NOT ashamedly, that when it comes to my riding, I horribly narrow minded. I ride with contact, in what i know is the right way, and my horse is moving biomechanically correctly. for me that is an indisputable fact. while i cannot comment on dr debs article or beliefs of contact, because i have not read it, i do plan to, i cannot say she is right or wrong. I know i am right, and I do not seek discussion on being proven wrong (again narrow minded).....but I am the kind of person that says, there is probably more than one right way. your way (if different from mine) may very well be right as well. and i am ok with that. I am not here to say....'i am right, you are wrong'. if the final product is the same, a biomechanically correct horse, a horse that is not forced, not held for long periods of time, is happy comfortable and sound......then I am all for there being more than one right way.
I know there are wrong ways. for me that is a fact. those that I know are wrong, no one on this planet can change my mind. things like rolkur and riding deep will never gain my approval. god himself would have to come down here and tell me it is right, and even then he is going to have to give me one hell of a surmon to change my mind.
in my world, where i am right, I approve of lindas game of contact. for me, that is HUGE as PNH had yet to gain my approval of riding techniques, niether with the bit, nor rider 'equitation', and i dont give my approval lightly.
am i arrogant? no. I rode the wrong way for many years, many styles of wrong, even from an FEI judge, and only bad things followed when i rode wrong, trained wrong. It took me a long time to find it and alot of hard work to master it. I believe what i belive because only good things came from it. there were times when i couldnt feel my horses feet hit the ground, it was like riding on spongy clouds. moments of harmony where i couldnt tell where i ended and she began. it truely felt like we were one being like her body was my body and i was the one doing the fancy moves. I would give up everything i have learned in NH to go back to those days and have my Snookster back, our youthful bodies back.....and would give anything to be able to ride right now and be able to have that with Rose.
And one other truth I know....your horse will never be good, with or without contact, if you aren't riding good...
_________________
True Genius does not fullfill expectations, True Genius shatters them.
Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a jackass from any direction.
http://www.naturalmannershorsemanship.blogspot.com/ |
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Rik(The Sequel)
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Joined: 03 Oct 2010
Posts: 102
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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Why would anyone look for information about contact from Parelli or Dr Deb?
The best source Parelli ever had was the O’connors and they used them for PR and pee’d them off. |
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Tigerlily
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Joined: 17 Sep 2010
Posts: 342
Location: Valley Springs CA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Oh....just to add, I was able to get the correct "contact' bitless too. Rik's picture reminded me of that. it was part of my experiment with NH, but we both already knew how to do it. So I dont know how much that had to do with anything, other than it WAS achievable. It was important for me to know, as that is a big criticism that I once had, and come across often when talking to other people. As soon as Snookie was sound enough again I would play with it in our short casual riding sessions. she had been retired for about 6ys at that point.
anyways, Linda's article is in the may '07 savvy times,
"education with Linda" section
page 55 titled
Linda's Journey: The Game of Conact.
in the article there is a diagram from walters book, 'dressage in harmony' that is a perfect portrayal of the recycling of energy from the riders LEG to the haunches, over the topline to the bit and back to the riders hands. i think most people (lay people) will not understand that diagram until it is felt, but that is just my opinion.
BTW, after re-reading my previous post.....just want to make sure no one thought my previous post was a stop all discussion.....by no means did i mean that. just meant "I" dont discuss it much as I have found my truth. it is a long argument, centuries old, between different dressage schools of thought, that IMO will never be resolved. both are right. mine is right for me.
_________________
True Genius does not fullfill expectations, True Genius shatters them.
Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a jackass from any direction.
http://www.naturalmannershorsemanship.blogspot.com/ |
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