It's About The Horse

Niek · Member Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 1065

Also posted this around on other forums i thought where appropariate ,

So this is a copy paste but i love input and pondering about it

This is more a train of thought than a easily discuss-able subject but chime in if you want

I wouldnt consider myself religious, i am how ever intrigued and facinated by Buddhism and Taoism and some of the concepts on live they have. One of them in particular seems to tie in with our goals of becoming horsemen.

I came to "ponder" this after reading some comments about how the really good riders like for example Mr Brannaman or PK (or any other that qualifies as good in each of our personal books) Have no "dust" in their riding, and how this relates to the concept of Wu-Wei:

Wu-Wei is the art of not acting against the nature of things Wu-Wei is used in a mostly in paradox : do without doing. It can be compared with water, it flows around everything yet is strong enough to go true granite.

Random train of though of thought squirted out , please continue

jackspark · Member Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 4474 Location: Missouri

Had a Taoist thread for a while but let it go when Traci left. I'm a firm follower of all things Tao.

Love the inaction

http://itsaboutthehorse.myfastforum.org/about3915.html&highlight=
_________________
Nancy

Flying Monkey Trainer

A journey of a thousand miles must
begin with a single step. Lao Tzu

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9032

Interesting thought Niek. My thoughts here are a work in progress. I think Wu-wei applies to many "animal people." To Do without Doing. I think we all know many people who are totally natural with animals, and I think many of us are, as Nancy said something similar with a picture she posted a few days ago...many are "animal whisperers" without trying to be. I think it is an innate inner quality to 'be with an animal, without effort." And I think there are many people who are born with this, and who I would apply this to. There are people who are cat people, dog people, horse people, and animal people, who just naturally 'are with an animal.' I think I was born this way. I think many others here were too.

But when you talk about horse training, I think it is possible to study, even teach "horse training" and never have Wu-Wei. You see this a lot in performance. You see it a lot with working cowboys, mounted policemen, pleasure riders, the list is long of people who own and are successful with horses, who may care a great deal about their horse and excellence with training the horse, and yet never have Wu-Wei. It's just a missing element.

Pat has a saying,

Level 1: Unconscious incompetence - You don't know how little you know

Level 2: Conscious incompetence - You become painfully aware of how little you know

Level 3: Conscious competence - You know what to do, but only by active thinking

Level 4: Unconscious competence - Actions become automatic

So everyone who wants to can learn and study and become unconsciously competent with horses. I know many dozens of horse trainers who are like this. I believe there are many masters of horse training in many disciplines who are like this, and they achieve many beautiful performances. But..the horse may not necessarily enjoy it as much as the rider or the audience.

Then finally we get to the combination of Wu-Wei and a lot study and experience, and we get what most of us probably consider a "Horseman." - Someone who does what is right by the horse without thinking.

Now remember, this is work in progress, so I'm like you Niek, interested in other's definitions and ideas. I will say that how I define "horseman" is a lot different then how the encyclopedia or dictionary does.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

coveredbridgefarm · Member Joined: 06 Feb 2009 Posts: 1624 Location: Missouri

Niek wrote:

Niek · Member Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 1065

Larry in this context nature is not equal to natural

A different example of this in animal/human interaction is the tiger temple in Thailand :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Temple

While not the best of examples i think you wil get what i see in the concept a bit better.

jackspark · Member Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 4474 Location: Missouri

Yes, nothing to do with nature, just the nature of the activity you are involved in. "The butcher who practices wu-wei never has to sharpen his cleaver"
_________________
Nancy

Flying Monkey Trainer

A journey of a thousand miles must
begin with a single step. Lao Tzu

coveredbridgefarm · Member Joined: 06 Feb 2009 Posts: 1624 Location: Missouri

Niek wrote:

becdubie · Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:21 pm Post subject:

Yeah, but.....
Wu-Wei is just the coolest name for anything.
_________________
-Becky
There is more than one right way!

whisperingwindfarms · Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:23 pm Post subject:

coveredbridgefarm · Member Joined: 06 Feb 2009 Posts: 1624 Location: Missouri

whisperingwindfarms · Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:52 pm Post subject:

I've always heard woo-way.
_________________
Erin

Visit my Blog! http://havesavvy.wordpress.com/

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9032

I think I'd take the "are happy to do so" part out. But I DO believe it is natural for some animals to eat and others to be eaten, and in many cases a predator is often eaten by another predator....take for example fish where the larger fish naturally eats the smaller fish.

I have no problem with the nature of the butcher. Man is an omnivore, like a bear or a pig.

But, I have to agree that Larry has a good point. Nature did not design horses to be ridden or pull loads. They are meant to be eaten. So, it is actually more correct Wu-Wei to close riding stables and re-open the slaughter houses? (not that I'm suggesting that, but it is "THE TRULY NATURAL" relationship between horse and man.

Getting past the concept of eating, and going just being totally natural WITH horses, I think it is nearly impossible for any of us to not bring other learning, hopes, desires, plans, goals and objectives into the relationship with the horse. Niek mentioned PK and Buck, but didn't both men learn from other horsemen? Don't both men have a horsemanship agenda with the horse? Is that really natural? Think of Carolyn Resnick who learned directly from a herd of wild horses. She is probably the closest to totally naturally WITH the horse, but every human looks, thinks, and interacts with horses based on their previous learning and human thoughts and emotions.

So, that kind of leaves us with Temple Grandin.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

jackspark · Member Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 4474 Location: Missouri

You are over thinking....... the butcher cuts meat and if you cut meat with the practice of wu-wei then your knife blade will never become dull.
_________________
Nancy

Flying Monkey Trainer

A journey of a thousand miles must
begin with a single step. Lao Tzu

Niek · Member Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 1065

Larry,

As nancy said : you are over thinking the concept, trying to add ,values like positive or negative, happy or sad to it. Wu Wei has nothing to do with this and does not add value to it.

Nor does the word nature has anything to do with wild life or the natural world (not just in the idea of natural horsemanship) Maybe its easier to compare nature in this context more to harmony.

As to the concept in horsemanship i think Ray Hunt had a nice paradox thats similar to those found in Wu Wei : Picking up a soft firmness

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9032

Larry or I 'overthink' something?

Naw, couldn't happen.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt