..

PasoBaby_CarolU

I think that it is as Pat describes, you are neutral in your body language and energy, and it is your horse's responsibility to maintain gait, speed and direction until you expend some energy to tell it to do otherwise.

This translates into the saddle in Freestyle, where again, you assume neutral with your body and it is the horse's job to maintain gait, speed and direction. There are many exercises along this line undersaddle...Point to Point and Tit for Tat are two that come to mind.

I had this discussion once with Larry Whitesell, about what GOOD is it to your horse unless you are actively directing him. He didn't feel it translated to the saddle, which all ground work should.

But, I feel it does. The "responsibility" part only comes into play if only if you do freestyle with your horse. I will say as a trail rider who doesn't want to have to micro-manage my horses on the trail, that it plays a part there too.

It feeds into Pat's saying about every time you use the rein, you disengage the horse's brain. The horse has a job in a partnership too.

whisperingwindfarms

I'll add this question: Is it possible to have one's body (while riding) in neutral but have one's energy still engaged? I know we're discussing the Trinity here but riding-wise, Chris Cox advocates a neutral body position but I've never heard him address a neutral "energy" state. I think that's where my question comes from.

What exactly is neutral? Neutral body position or neutral energy. Can you have neutral energy with an active body? Is that possible?

As for Pat's circling game, it's my understanding (from my teachers who have studied with Ray & Buck) that standing there doing nothing is not preferred. They both have me follow the horse as Buck does in his videos and did at the clinic I went to.

Thunder Hollow

coveredbridgefarm

Just to add more confusion, I have always thought of neutral as the least amount I have to do in order to maintain direction and gait. I think of neutral as my preferred level of satisfaction, satisfied with my horse's direction, satisfied with my horse's gait, satisfied with my horse's energy level, satisfied to the extent that I would prefer no change, which is kind of a neutral. It doesn't mean zero energy. It means no change in energy.

I see it as kind of like maintaining the speed of your car at 60 mph. You're not in neutral but, on level ground, you're not adjusting the accelerator either.

Neutral is when your horse perceives your body language to be satisfied with what he is doing. Neutral, in the way Pat uses it, is in the horse's perception, imo. When the horse is circling in a roundpen at a trot, for example, he is looking at you for an indication of neutral to let him know that you are satisfied with what he is doing. Imo, the word "neutral" applies to the horse's perspective, not the human's.

It's that language thing again. Perhaps neutral wasn't the best choice of words but our language is so limited, especially when we try to apply it to horses. I'm trying to think of a better word.

Zenlike, a word that you used in your own post, might be better. To be zenlike at whatever gait, direction, energy level you seek might work better.

I'm not satisfied with that word either. Ann, I think you know what you need in order to make it work with your horses. Without a doubt, your horses know what they're looking for. Now you just have to find a word that makes it clear, in your mind, within the limits of our language. I think you were correct when you said you were getting hung up on the dictionary's definition of neutral.

What we are searching for is a word that adequately explains what the horse is looking for in order to let him/her know that you are satisfied with what they are doing.

I think we need to accept the reality that our language is a very crude instrument with which to explain natural horsemanship. There are forces at work here in horse/human interactions for which our language has no perfectly applicable words, imo. That fact has become more and more clear to me as I read books by TD, RH, BD, and PP, or watch dvds produced by PP, BB, and CR, or attend clinics by any number of people. These people, all of them, struggle to explain clearly to most other people what it is that they think the horse sees.

And even if you think a particular clinician has made something perfectly clear to you, the chances are that later on, at some point in time, you will discover that you did not understand it as clearly as you originally thought you did.

Actually, this should not surprise us if we realize that horses do not think like humans are accustomed to thinking.

Larry

Mandy'sMarty

I'm not the student of Tom, Bill, and Ray that you all are. But after re-reading what Ann and Larry wrote, I have to jump in here and make a wave or two.

On some visceral level, what has always attracted me to being around horses is their expression of energy. I believe that we, and everything around us, are also expressions of energy. On a molecular level, we're composed more of non-matter than matter. Our physical bodies are animated with a life force, or prana, ki, or chi...whatever you want to call it. We experience it as energy.

My interpretation of "neutral" as discussed here is a form of expressing my energy in relation to my horse's expression of energy. That "zenlike" feeling, I believe, happens when my energy is flowing congruently with my mare's energy. As a whitewater paddler, I like to use the metaphor of paddling along in a swift current. I feel in harmony with my mare when we are both swimming together in a stream of matching energy. This is what I strive for when we are participating in an endurance ride. Or we can be simply floating along together, swept along by the matching energy. This is what I feel when she is maintaining gait while I am actively riding her. Or when we are simply spending undemanding time together out in her pasture.

And I can amp up my energy level without a similar increase in physical body language expression. I work at increasing my focus and intent as Phase 1 with Mandy, rather than "shouting" at her with bigger body language. So, sometimes I leave my "neutral" energy level without it appearing obvious to the casual onlooker.

Kathleen

Thunder Hollow

Thunder Hollow

PasoBaby_CarolU

Interesting thread. I think you are right Kathleen about the "why" Parelli teaches it. I do see it as a big correction for people who NAG at their horses with constant cues...and if I remember correctly, that was explained to me many moons ago.

I thought about Kristie's question and the difference with "active neutral." I think as you progress through the Levels and ask for more engagement, change of speeds within gait, transitions, etc. on the circling game, you do become more active in your neutral. Kathleen, I have learned many things to correct horses on-line who are ignoring you or getting heavy. Do you have some suggestions for Liberty? I have a pretty energetic breed and so my energy cues have to be very slight, but I'd be interested to know what you suggest there.

In the saddle I think it's a lot easier to think of totally neutral (sack of potatoes or just being a passenger) and active neutral, where your body is relaxed, but your mind is still very much on and with your horse and what you are doing together. That connection. I do think that horses are so in tune to your body language, even through a saddle and pad, that they know the difference.

I really like Karen R's term "active neutral" because it does speak of conscious neutrality, rather then being asleep at the reins. I readily admit I do both, and to be honest I want my horses to know the difference. Not so much at Liberty, but definitely under saddle, when I'm frequently distracted with other things and want the horse to continue doing what they're doing.

coveredbridgefarm

Kathleen wrote:

TrickMule

The way I figure it at the moment is that when my mule is right I offer her the most comfort I can possibly can which fits the situation. She seeks the comfort and it is interesting to me to note how this develops and gets finer and finer gradations....

It is more difficult in the saddle because there are so many ways I could accidentally cause her to feel some level of discomfort when I am actually trying to show her with my body that THIS is the sweet spot; the sweet speed, the sweet posture, the sweet position, the sweet bend, the sweet response, the sweet level of positive "tension", the sweet attitude, the sweet level of effort and so on...(it is easier, I think, on the ground, to do this because you are not quite as physically connected to the animal with your "fallible" body). Buck's square analogy makes a lot of sense to me, although maybe it is more of a cube as the way the horse can centre also works in the y axis....I am sure, however, that his square analogy encompasses this dimension from what he wrote.

At first I was sort of crude about providing comfort. I would stop and dwell every time something occurred in the right direction. But later, I think you need to adjust as you go, otherwise you will always be stopping. So then, I did it by a sort of exaggerated total release of the aids, but there are some limitations to this also in terms of the finer adjustments. So now I am working on those, I suppose - to use Buck's analogy - the square is smaller, or perhaps more precise; but hopeully without being too demanding or oppressively applied, as he warns of....

The part of the square that is most difficult for us is to meet in the centre on is agreeing on speed, at greater speeds. My mule does not inherently love to "go" in the same way a lot of horses do and naturally has far less driftier feet. I jokingly call it her "donkey anchor". It has been a long job to get towards matching our squares up (her finding the centre) in this area, as her desire to find the centre in this axis is counteracted by her own instincts and quite strong opinions on the matter. She is inherently uncomfortable at speed*, so even if she has maximum comfort offered, she is not comfortable in herself. I think that the level of inherent discomfort she feels at speed has been reduced over the years, but there is still work for me to do. So it continues. There has been very good improvement, but she does not yet match my horse's willingness to stay in the centre with me at higher speeds. It is perhaps not always obvious to the casual observer, but I can feel it clearly when I ride. For example, developing a good, groundcovering walk has been a long project and although she will outwalk some similar-sized horses now and cause them to trot to keep up, I do have to make adjustments here and there. So while she now "hunts" it to an extent, it is still not "finished". I sometimes wonder if it ever can be and whether I should allow her to maintain some of her muleyness (because some of her other muley tendencies are very valuable in the riding and so I encourage those) and not try to "make" her be more of a horse, when she isn't actually a horse.....

[EDITED to add]

*This only applies in thinking, or left brain, situations. When she gets properly spooked, she suddenly remembers her racing QH heritage, weighs up the "donkey anchor" and takes off like a bullet shot from a cannon. At these times she is faster than my horse by miles, and her standing start can be an impressive sight - or so I am told by those watching me being carried off into distance. I guess the discomfort of speed becomes insignificant during the battle for survival! Safety first, then comfort.....(PNH hierarchy of needs).

Mules - the ultimate Buy One Get One Free offer - sometimes you're riding the donk, sometimes you're riding the horse....and sometimes you are riding an ever-shifting hybrid mixture of the two (so perhaps a Three For One offer might be a more appropriate description).....

[End of EDIT]

Anyway, it is time to go as I could philosophise on this kind of thing forever and perhaps not find any more clarity in my direction....

coveredbridgefarm

Liz wrote:

kristie

new2thejourney

Kathleen

Thunder Hollow

coveredbridgefarm

Kathleen wrote:

Mandy'sMarty

I happened to find an intriguing thread that ran almost a year ago.

Perhaps the various descriptions of personal experiences with energy expression found in that thread can be helpful here.

Here's the link:
itsaboutthehorse.myfastforum.org/viewtopic.php?p=5510

new2thejourney

I also really enjoyed reading what you wrote Kathleen. It was well thought out and makes heaps of sense.

Perhaps "absense of intent", or "feel" is more than that especially in the liberty example. It is more of a connection, an understanding between both the horse and the human. So perhaps there is no english word available to describe what we are talking about. Larry is right, there is still an intent there - we want the horse to continue doing what he/she is doing. True neutral is nothing. I suppose undemanding time is the most accurate neutral we do.

This thread really has me thinking and I really like it!

Karen.

imagele

imagele

Rik

Seems to me when people talk of Neutral what they mean is move with the horse, match it’s energy.

If you’re not moving with you horse your getting in the way of the movement and making the horse’s job harder for it.

If you’re not matching the horses energy but just having none yourself you can’t drop your energy to help the horse drop his.

In the context discussed here, it seems to me we are discussing being in harmony with the horse (Physically, energy wise etc), in the context Parelli use it, to me it’s about not nagging the horse.

It does coma back to what’s it all about?

It’s 2 things for me.

1)Be able to clearly communicate to the horse what you want it to do.

2)The horse wanting to do what you ask of it.

There are many ways do both those things, including enerygy, physical aids, pain, discomfort, a mental connection etc

Everybody has there own combination to get the end result so it’s almost impossible to say what something is/what will work, only what it is to you/works for you.

PasoBaby_CarolU

You know this discussion goes back to what I think of the definition of Natural Horsemanship, which is to me is not horse training, but communications. Here we're having trouble communicating within our species to say what we mean, and then translate that to communicating with a horse.

The trouble we're having with the word Neutral is a prime example. Maybe the term we are looking for is "connected neutral", which to me is that you are doing nothing energy-wise, but still totally aware of what your hose is doing. This could be considered the 'release' that tells the horse they are doing what you want, and to continue what they are doing. To me it is still mentally active, in that you have to maintain a conscious awareness of your horse and be ready to correct or change whatever needs to be done, to maintain the status quo.

This is different then someone sitting in the middle of the arena yacking with their friend on their cell phone, or on the iPod, totally oblivious to what the horse is doing.

I am either blessed, or cursed, with an extremely sensitive breed who gives me instant feedback on any change in energy on my part. I once got tired of 'neutral' and decided to put a chair in the round coral to sit on, since I was just exercising the horses I wasn't riding that day. I don't have a walker, but the horses still need exercise. When I put the chair there, for 10 minutes Zar circled with her energy up and snorting at me. That little change stressed her, not at all sure what I was going to do with the chair.

Richard, I don't think I would call it matching energy. With these horses I'd have them flying around. Even under saddle, any energy on my part translates to them to increase speed. It takes me the most time to get them relaxed about each increase in momentum without increasing adrenalin.

Even the "plus a bit more" would mean increase speed. I actually do, "quite a bit less." It took me Parelli to realize I was yelling at my horses just with my normal energy. I had to slow it way, way down.

Thunder Hollow

PasoBaby_CarolU

Sure Ann....get us going in a new direction! LOL

Intent is interesting. Some examples of this...

I've seen timid people approach a horse and it scares the horse, wondering WHAT is wrong or scary. Where if you approach the horse confidently, the horse seems to know you know what you are doing and accepts it. I've seen the same thing trailer loading, where an owner is having all kinds of trouble trying to 'invite' the horse in the trailer. You go to help and lead the horse right in. When I was blanketing Bien I had to be gone so was checking out my husband's blanketing technique. Bien ran away from him and he couldn't get it on her. He threw it at me, and I walked up and put it on her. He was trying to 'sneak' it on her, and his caution was read by her as THIS is something scary, even though it is the same blanket.

Many years ago my 4-H leader had a mare who hated men. She'd been abused and wouldn't let men or boys around her at all. She was a beautiful bay horse who looked a lot like my sisters horse. My dad mistook the two and walked up to Aleta, scratching her and rubbing her all over. She was fine with him. But, he had approached her fearlessly and without threat. She sensed the difference easily.

Intent is interesting because it isn't always about intensity, it's about a lot more.

Thunder Hollow

Kathleen

Mandy'sMarty

Good question, Ann. I like to think about this "energy stuff" in terms of what I call feel, focus, and intent.

To use your example, I have felt something not right about Mandy as I walked half a mile to find her in her pasture. When I finally found her, I noticed that her chest had been sliced open in a laceration from bottom edge of ribs, left to right. My focus was targeted on that wound and what I had to do next. Meanwhile, several of her herdmates, who had been huddling around her when I found her, were still concerned. They were approaching me, getting in my face, and showing their concern...but they were in the way and bothering me in that moment. I was struggling to manage the emotional pain and shock welling up inside me so I wasn't very gentle in my handling of her concerned herdmates. I drove them away from us with a lot of energy, but my intention was to help Mandy as fast as possible and do no harm to them. They all read my intention and everyone was calm as they moved back and away to give us some space.

Regarding intention: I have had several experiences involving energy work/body work on Mandy where I applied the technique technically incorrectly...but achieved the intended result because of my intention. Horses are very perceptive at reading your intention.

TrickMule

Kathleen

PasoBaby_CarolU

TrickMule

coveredbridgefarm

Kathleen wrote:

PasoBaby_CarolU

Thank you TickMule. I have circled with the stick in Zone 3, but probably not done it enough, or right. I need to close in my circle where it is smaller so I can walk casually at his side while he strides away farther out. Either that or get a longer stick! LOL You really have no idea how many hours I have spent with him, just leading him from Zone 2 and working my way back. Also, extreme Friendly....hours of it. He's my aerobics workout.

As history, this horse was imprinted and then chased into traps as a foal (his dam was hard to catch, so 'trapping' was SOP) and then man-handled. Not abused, but scared deeply that way, he has real fear issues with anyone behind him at all from being chased into the traps. He keeps people in Zone 1 as a trust issue, so when he feels threatened at all, he turns and puts you in Zone 1. He is an LBE and totally fearless about 'things'...I can drag logs or tarps behind him. But, an RBE with people. I am the only person that he trusts enough to catch, pick up his feet, brush, touch or go around Zone 5, etc. When Alayna was here, he finally let her as far as Zone 4. The two of us together near him was too much pressure and he left. I don't trap him at all and watch that he doesn't get cornered and feel trapped again.

He's been a challenge for me since he needed to be trained when I had my arm operated on. He'd always leave, so my arm would get a workout and then I couldn't work with him for a week or so. He's ready to ride but I'm uncomfortable doing so without getting past this. He'll let me lean over him and rub and stroke. I haven't been on him yet, as he won't stay if anyone else is near enough to act as a ground helper. So, I really want to 'ride' him from Zone 3 prior to getting all the way on.

TrickMule

Hey Carol,

He runs behind you OK, right? Your running commotion is OK while it is retreating, right? So you will have something to build on as you work your way down the zones. You mention doing this in your post - how is this kind of thing going with him? Is there an OK distance away from him where he can tolerate you running? An OK zone with you running close up?

My mule could not walk closer to me than at the end of the 12 foot line when I first got her. She would hang on the rope and stretch her neck out to keep herself as far away from me as possible. We really did look like that archetypal image of a person dragging a "stubborn" mule behind them :-)

You mention using a longer stick - you could always just rest the string on his back, or do friendly game in motion with the stick and string going over his back as he goes around? Then he'd have to get used to your support arm doing something, but meaning nothing. With my mule I worked this kind of thing up so she could circle, do jumps, etc while I cracked the bullwhip over her zone 3. She can differentiate this from my intent to speed her up out there because that will always involve some kind of lead, whether actual or implied. Or you could get a bamboo pole to use...

You mention fear behind him and not allowing people easily into zone 5. My mule was a bit like this in that she was very goosey and can often hold tension in zone 4 and 5. I decided I needed to do something so that she would want me to be in zone 5. Aside from offering it as a comfort area during play, and rubbing itchy spots, etc, I also taught her to take a treat from under her hindleg near the udder (yoga) and the signal for her to do that is me touching the goosiest part of her hind end and saying yoga. She has finally gotten so that she doesn't flinch/quail when I touch that part (the vulnerable achilles tendon) and instead views this type of contact positively because it might be time for yoga. I then got other people to do it; females she knew, then males. She does it now if I just stand there and say yoga and the treat is no longer necessary. I think it has made a bit of a difference to her opinion about things in zone 5. I have written about yoga and included a picture in the following thread:

http://itsaboutthehorse.myfastfor...tra24162.php&highlight=#24162

I also taught her to finish the circling game by bringing zone 5 to me and coming in zone 5 first (rather than zone 1) to make that zone confident. That was a fun thing to do and opened up so many possibilities, like using sideways-forwards transitions to make the circle bigger or smaller, plus travers on the circle. You can also work this into the rock slide/rolling rock backwards (I like to call it the rocking roll, tee-hee).

There is so much to play with and there are so many possibilities - almost anything constructive you choose to do with this horse will help him overall, I reckon.

To bring this back in line with the original subject, what I mean is that hopefully - through appropriate activities - he will become gradually accustomed to tuning into your intention, rather than whatever else he might select to focus on. A friend of mine had a horse who watched the tools (and extremities) of the person but had difficulty picking up on intent. He could not differentiate rhythmic motion from rhythmic pressure. He had to learn this in very simple and clear situations first and eventually was able to manage in more complex and subtle situations. But it took time, self-control and self-belief on the part of the handler. Sometimes I think self-belief - or projecting a sort of positive This Will Work kind of an attitude - can work wonders for accomplishing whatever it is that you want to do, as long as it is maintained without aggression or oppression. It is almost like a horse can pick up on when we do and when we don't have the courage of our convictions, and responds accordingly. So, when I play with things on the edge of our capabilities (i.e to progress something), I always act like it is going to happen. Somehow this always seems to help me, maybe because it allows me to be properly focused and alive to the situation....? This in turn then helps my mule figure things out.

Keep us posted.

Kathleen

coveredbridgefarm

Kathleen wrote:

Kathleen

PasoBaby_CarolU

Thank you Kathleen....I think I need to clarify a little. He isn't afraid of anything except people....rope, string, flag, bag, tarp, bag of cans, ATV, tractor...leading, having him follow whatever, standing or walking, carrying, pulling. And this is his nature, not over-desensitizing him. When I first started to tie a bag to the end of the carrot stick he stuck his head over my shoulder to see what was in the bag. Total LBE about "toys," and virtually everything is a toy. When you do undemanding time with him, he licks you to death.

What he is afraid of is moving people, and what he does immediately is disengage and face you. If you keep walking he will then back up, as you warn. Thanks for the warning; I will be more careful not to let that happen. He is a fast forward-a-holic and not a sticky feet horse.

I can often (not always) walk in Zone 3 in the middle of the round coral with a forward focus, but if along the edge at all, he again fears being trapped, and squeezes through, turns and faces you. If pressed too hard, like walking and driving while circling, he will bolt forward, right out of your hands....and then turn and face you. When I first got him, if you approached then, he would bolt again. He does bolt if anyone else approaches him. He'll let them touch his nose, maybe scratch his forehead, but that's it. Any movement behind his eye and he'll leave them.

Does that help?

TrickMule

Carol, Kathleen's post reminded me of something. I filmed Buck getting a scared horse used to the commotion of a perosn approaching and being roped from and have it on CD. I could try to see if I can get a copy and send it to you if you PM me the details. There are things to look for in the escape.

whisperingwindfarms