| Archive for It's About The Horse The Free Forum for those Doing Parelli - and a whole lot More! "Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful." Xenophon (430-355 B.C.), |
| jackspark |
1st Year Under SaddleMost of you already know that I am taking my life as well as my mare's life in my hands We have reached a mile stone of sorts in that we have made 40 successful (nobody got hurt, in short or long terms) rides. These rides have been short and mostly walk/trot/graze affairs. Time to move along.
What I would like is for "you" to distill your best advice for working with the beginning horse, during their first year of training. Give me your pearls I know there are more than just a few of you out there, get in the game you quiet experienced ones; I need all the advice I can get 
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| whudson |
Re: 1st Year Under Saddle
I read this and thought, wow sounds like you are both doing great  I don't have much experience with a totally green horse (Kitt was pretty green but I don't think ours was a normal situation) but my thought is do more of the same, transitions, see how 'light" you can make your cues. When I first got Kitt we did a lot of bombproofing...checking him out to make sure he could handle all sorts of things. Maybe you've already done all that...sorry maybe I'm not much help at all
No pearls to give 
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| jackspark |
Re: 1st Year Under Saddle
I often forget this and get too involved in just surviving the ride for both of us, if ya know what I mean. Thanks for reminding me to start the real work now............. Hooray my first pearl of wisdom
PS This was the area that did the most harm to my VERY sensitive gelding; I always hit him over the head with a hammer instead of a fairy wand. 
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| Aussie girl |
Nancy I am in the exact same boat as you are so though I cannot really add any "pearls of wisdom" I will anxiously be reading everyones responses:)
One thing that hit me just this week and sometimes I think my head is just really thick and it can take a while for something to really sink in, is how important my "focus" is. I was having trouble getting my green boy to sometimes just go forward...then I realized I was looking at his ears once I changed my focus to looking ahead to the next corner....amazingly we began to move forward
Anyway will be glued to the computer for the experienced ones pearls
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| Clarissa |
Make sure you are full bottle on equine (& human) biomechanics so you don't consolidate bad habits of the both of you.
Have you read & absorbed Dr Deb? PK has very good exercises for getting the horse & rider in balance & frame. Hunt the net for all bioM resources. Also make sure the saddle remains properly fitting as your horse builds muscles & shape. Search for saddle fitting videos to expand you knowledge there. In the biomechanics setion of this forum I posted a heap of links to places I have found to contain helpfull info.....well I just looked again to get the link & it's not there! I'll have to find it again Still, there is a lot of good info to research in that section anyway.
Time to move to a bit occasionally for developing communication refinement. Learn, learn, learn about what it takes to stay out of your horse's way during faster & more precise movements. Start teaching tricks to break up the play session. Do some AND. thought bubble .... "mmmm Now what can I suggest you learn tomorrow!! "  
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| jackspark |
You lost me at Biomechanics..........trust me though, I'll get on it.
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| AlythLong |
I am presently bringing on another youngster - he is the 5th in about 20 years and I have learned from each of them.
The first one we did lots of schooling - big mistake - she "overcooked" and needed 18 months of pleasure riding to come right. But one good thing I did with her within the first few days of riding was play silly bu...rs!! Waving my arms around, swinging my legs, leaning forward and backward, grabbing hold of her neck and ears "falling off" lying there and giving her a treat. That last one was invaluable the first time I fell off on a ride - she stood there and waiting for her treat!!! The second one turned out great too. He was more left brain and really built my confidence while riding him around the others. Riding out and about on a long rein seeing all the different different things there are to see is a MUST as soon as you have stop and turn established. Short rides to start with. The horse needs to build his muscles and ability to carry a weight as well as learning "light aids". The third one has turned out to be a fantastic riding horse. My granddaughter is learning on him. Also basically left brain, but also dominant he goes where he wants to with her.....!!!! But with me he is a fantastic partner - very light, quick off the mark with absolutely no "vices" at all. We do pretty well together. No. 4 is fantastic as well. More right brain so has given me a few "moments" - and still does some days!!! But again we can go out and about anywhere. She did take a bit to get used to waves lapping over her legs though!! With no 5 he has only had a few weeks under saddle then developed an abcess and was lame for AGES!! All is good to go now so as soon as I get a free weekend we will do some ground work and recap the ridden. We were starting to ride up and down small slopes. The plan is to make these slopes longer and steeper and we do them at a walk. I did this with no. 3 and it really paid off when we did an endurance ride and came across some REALLY LONG AND VERY STEEP HILLS THAT I HAD TO GO DOWN!!!! He was a star and we quietly walked down with just a little bit of a sit on the bum and slide over the steepest bit. Boy was I glad I had done that hill training!! If you are still reading....!!!....to sum up. Don't worry about "finesse". Ensure you and your horse become used to travelling over different terrain in different conditions looking at different "monsters". Probably THE most important lesson is standing still to be mounted - both from something and from the ground. These lessons are so important and it is also important to always take care when mounting so the horse doesn't have any reason to move off - make sure you land quietly in the saddle. That is the commonest reason for the horse to start to dislike being mounted. But bringing on a youngster is so pleasurable and so rewarding. Have the greatest of fun - both of you!! Alyth |
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| jackspark |
What a picture! I laughed out loud and at the same time realizing that it was a pearl I was laughin at
Thanks Alyth, I feel like I learned something from each of the 5 too! |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I only ride lightly for the first year. I spend it despooking and working through Trail obstacles, make sure that ALL experiences are good. I want to reduce any likelihood for an accident and teach relaxation and stopping before I ask for any speed.
With Pasos, which are energetic horses, I do it ALL at a walk and start doing the Patterns, particularly Point to Point and Tit for Tat. I want them to follow a Focus. In the second year I start working on gait, which means that I then start conditioning, suppling, and 'working' the horse. I like Mark Russells "Riding in Lightness" for this. |
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| jackspark |
Would this light riding be because of youth or would you follow the same pattern with an older green horse? I feel strongly that, as you said, great care should be taken to avoid any accidents or incidents that could cause a back up in her confidence. | ||||
| Aussie girl |
Great points and ideas. And happily it sounds like I am mostly on the right track. Alyth, I am not sure I could handle even a "pretend" fall off but it certainly sounds like a great idea. My young guy is very sensitive but I do flop around a bit in the saddle on purpose, and from the very beginning after saddling we flap stirrups, smack the saddle and make the mounting process rather noisy though a gentle final position into the saddle.
The "sideways to me" is a wonderful thing and now all I need is to just think about mounting and Joker moves into position...I LOVE that one
Any ideas on how to make the arena a place of joy? Joker seems to prefer to go out and about, which I enjoy too, but my real dream is to have him do dressage and at some point we just need to get on with arena work. |
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| bit |
Not posting with pearls, but I'll send Kelsey your way. She's just starting Hawk and Quinn so hopefully she'll share what she can. Nancy, you could always hit the Brent Graef clinic this August. Kelsey is doing the a.m., auditing the afternoon thang. It's more affordable and she's bringing either Hawk or Quinn. Something to think about, and would be a great beginning.
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| Jack |
It's important that they learn to move forward with energy. I use long hills to introduce the canter since it gives them a reason to travel at speed.
Jack |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
The light riding is because of age. I would do the same things in the same order, but accelerate it with an older horse. That's a good idea Jack. |
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| jackspark |
Just watched Mark Rashid's DVD Vol. 1 Developing Softness. I knew I liked him before, having read all his books, but I can say now I'm infatuated for sure. I'm watching this DVD at just the right time for Gem and me.
His discussion about Light vs Soft was eye opening and Muscle vs Center a reminder from my Tai Chi days. Boy, I'm getting just what I hoped for with this thread...... a lot of pearls Keep em comin gang; I know you'll think of other things that ya forgot to mention! Jack, I have a long hill up my road, (we're in a hole) and that will be a great place to do as you suggested. Should control the speed, I would think. |
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| alexwein |
This is really good. I'm just received my training snaffle yesterday and plan to move my own young girl to the bit. All of you talking about getting out of the way and staying soft and subtle, THANK YOU. This is one of the hardest things for me, is to do LESS, not more. Once she gets it, stop interfering and let her think things through. I'm at the point where I need to ask for more, so we are building on that. Interesting idea about the tricks. My agility trainer (for my dog) does something similar. We do obedience training in the midst of the agility work to keep it interesting for the dog. A suggestion along those lines. When doing things like teaching the horse to sidepass and hq and fq yields, do it in a context. Ex: opening a gate. Once the horse has the basic idea, apply it to something interesting and challenging. My horse is a real smart girl and takes about a second to learn something new. I taught her sidepass from the ground early on, a la Parelli and then with 'feel,' then took one recent session and taught it to her using pressure from the stirrup on the ground. Then got on her back and did it there. Took her about a minute to make the connection and now she's a side passing fool. So to just do sidepassing is boring for her. I'm gong to keep it interesting by applying it to opening gates, etc. There are many other ways to keep things interesting WHILE teaching her things. Your horse should definitely know all her yields and leg cues by now. I taught Dakota hq yield on her third ride and sidepassing on her 6th. She also knows fq yields. Now I am refining her knowledge of what I'm asking for and what the cues are. Also helping her put it all together. If you have 40 or so rides on yours, she definitely should know all of this by now as a foundation and you can really work on refining things. To me that's the really fun part. Also obstacle work. All the work I did with her on the ground has so paid off! She went over our first bridge/plank obstacle with me in the saddle like it was nothing. Same with the tarp, though she did stop and paw at it a bit. Keep refining these things too. Because of age, definitely agree to keep the riding light her first year. My girl is even younger than yours, I think, not sure about that. But mine is approaching 2.5 yrs and, although she's a big girl and strong and well formed, she's still growing and vulnerable. I liken it to an early teen doing sports. You definitely want to work them enough to strengthen their bones and muscles, etc., but you don't want to do too much to damage still growing joints. Just some thoughts. Definitely want to have your horse used to a bit, also used to whatever other equipment you'll be using. Once I have Dakota soft with a bit I'll teach her to work with a bosal. I want her used to everything I can. Don't forget about the groundwork. That is still important. I still do a fair amount of groundwork, especially to teach her something new. I try to do it from the ground first, using the aids I'll be using in the saddle. Much easier to get the idea across on the ground, then immediately I get into the saddle and repeat it there so she makes the connection. This works extremely well and keeps her calmer, because she is understanding things better. It also teaches her the learning process--she knows now that I'm teaching something on the ground and that we'll be doing it in the saddle at some point. The 'light bulb' moments happen much more quickly now than at first. Okay, that's what I can think of. I'll be checking on this thread for ideas too! Thanks for asking the question! |
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| jackspark |
Alex you mentioned fq yeild. Gem will hq yeild and sidepass but the fq is not as good. I probably need to mess with it on the ground a bit? She does get kind of confused in placement of my foot; maybe exaggerate more?
I do try to make the yeilds and sidepass mean something cause she is also one of those WHY horses. I usually stop on the road and sidepass her to the good grass, has made her really soft there. "The hits just keep comin"
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| alexwein |
What a great idea about sidepassing to the grass! Sidepassing seemed to come easily to Dakota as well. I agree re fq yields. I think making it really, really clear is the key, since the horse is having to learn a combination of things with each new move. I found Dakota was initially confused about cuing for hq yields after learning to sidepass. Any leg cue on the left side alone and she'd sidepass right. I realized I needed to be very clear and yes, exaggerate a bit, to help her understand what I was asking for, using the combo of leg and hand cues. I'm also using my body weight to help her understand. It starts with grosser movements but once she has the idea, I immediately see how soft and light I can be. I find that once she understands what I'm asking for, it doesn't take long for her to get it when I'm much softer and lighter with my cues. Fq yields were the hardest for Dakota to learn from the saddle too. Definitely suggest starting on the ground. I use the stirrups and reins as I would in the saddle to give her the idea without having to worry about me being on her back and having to adjust to that as well. |
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| alexwein |
Another suggestion for fq yields. I initially taught it to her with her facing a fence. Kind of like how Parelli shows you to teach sidepassing. Have the horse facing into the fence, then ask for the fq yield. It helps them not go forward and turn on the hind end. At first, reward for the slightest try. Then one good step over, keeping the hind end fairly quiet. Then you can build from there. Using the fence like that worked really well and I was able to graduate from that pretty quickly. | ||||
| jackspark |
Yes, I had forgotten about the fence. It certainly helped with the sidepass! Is your foot at the girth, and are you using direct and indirect reins, just like you would with the sidepass? If this heat will let up I'll try it soon. 90 degrees at 8:50 am when I came in
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| alexwein |
At first it was a little in front of the girth or right on it, and you 'open' the opposite leg by opening the knee. I liken it to opening and closing the door. You close the door on the side giving pressure and open the door to the other side. But you also have to contain forward movement and control the front end, so yes, I use the reins for that. I eventually want to be able to use only legs and body pressure, but for teaching, this is what I do. I open up the side I want her to move toward and 'close' the side I want her to move away from. So I'm using indirect rein to contain the shoulder and move it away from pressure and direct rein to open the other side and guide her motion. Don't know if this makes sense. Never tried to explain it this way before. Easier to show you than try to write it out. Why don't you just come over?? 
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| jackspark |
Ok, but I got a tractor here mowing my pastures, how 'bout for dinner? Never been on the west coast except for flyin into San Francisco I'll bring ya some MO cidadas 
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| alexwein |
Well, I can wait for dinner, no problem! Best get those pastures mowed! Me, I've driven through Missouri a couple of times.
Southern Oregon is NOTHING like San Fran., although we have had our share of Californians coming into the area and hiking up housing prices.
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| Blue Flame |
I don't know if this will help with the FQ yielding and it might be too much at once with a young horse but Dave Stuart showed us an exercise on a younger horse that covers so many aspects that it really is incredible how much learning is packed into this one little pattern. All you need is a corner - Dave used the corner of a paddock where two fences met.
He starts with the horse in a corner facing one side of the corner - say the long side of the arena (it is a ridden exercise). He backs the horse along the rail on the short side out of the corner and when the weight has shifted back, asks for a turn towards the rail, blending the backing and FQ yield requests together smoothly. Because the horse needs room to move his FQ over he will back up in a slight curve until his HQ have moved to the inside of the arena to give himself room to move the forehand over. His weight will automatically be back on his HQ as he makes the turn. As soon as the horse as made the turn, he rides him in a circular loop back to the corner down the long side rail so that he ends up back in the corner but this time facing the other rail. The longer the horse took to get back to the corner, the longer you let him rest there. Then the whole exercise starts again going back the other way. Clear as mud? I still marvel at all the things this pattern does for the horse both mentally and biomechanically as well as how the rails make it all very obvious to the horse. Backing, backing around a corner, turn on the HQ, impulsion etc. all rolled into one simple pattern. |
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| jackspark |
I'm digesting......... Boy it sure would help to see it. It sounds good, I'll re-read and "see" if I have any questions
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| Blue Flame |
1. Horse parked in corner facing one rail and parallel to other rail. 2. Horse backs up out of corner along rail he is parallel with. Rail keeps him straight 3. Horse make 180 degree turn towards the rail he is parallel with. 4. As horse completes the 180 degree turn he is urged forward, now moving forwards away from the corner along the rail. 5. Horse leaves the rail and arcs around towards the other rail - the one he was facing in step 1. 6. Horse moves forward into corner but this time he enters it parallel to the other rail (that is the rail he was originally facing in step 1.) 7. Horse halts in the corner - he is now 90 degress to where he originally started in step 1. 8. Repeat in the other direction. The main thing to remember is that the 180 degree turn is made from the backup and always turns towards the rail. So if you start in the corner with the rail on your right parallel to your horse, your 180 degree turn will be to the right and the larger arc back into the corner along the other rail will also be to the right. Draw a raindrop shape with the pointy end of the raindrop in the corner and you'll have the track it follows. |
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| alexwein |
I don't think this is too much at all for a young horse. I think it's perfect in fact. I need to map it out too, and will look at your other post to clarify. But it sounds like the kind of exercises a local trainer I occasionally consult does with her green horses. I personally really like patterns for training and for building athleticism, coordination, and for developing a horse mentally as well. This looks like a really good exercise, thanks!! |
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| Blue Flame |
Does this help? Rectangle is arena. It shows the cycle starting with the horse parallel to the short side and ending with him in the corner again but parallel with the long side. Just flip it to go back the other way.
Really good for getting them back on their haunches and getting an engaged departure. Doesn't need to be an arena - all you need is a corner somewhere to give the horse some support. Read in conjunction with other notes above - remember, the longer they take to get back to the corner, the longer the rest you give them. We used to add some interest to it after Blue Flame got the initial pattern by adding ground poles or cones and doing slalom, sideways etc. on the way around the large arc. With the rest stop - great for LBI horse. 
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| AlythLong |
That is an excellent pattern!!! I have printed it out and I can't wait to try it. Has anyone got any other patterns from other sources than PNH? Perhaps we could build a collection!!! Alyth | ||||
| Blue Flame |
You might find they fumble a bit on the 180 degree turn until they work out how to get out of their own way while backing and turning at the same time. Take it easy until they work out that it is actually possible to move HQ over while going backwards.
You'll probably need to experiment a bit as to when is the optimum moment to ask for each phase of the pattern. Also, stay fairly close to the rail for the backup and turn on the haunches. |
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| jackspark |
That's great! I'm such a visual learner
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| Clarissa |
BF are you sure the exercise you did the diagram about is this one above that includes a bending backup? Or is it the one where the horse pivots 180degrees on it’s HQ & moves off forward again now facing the other direction? Your diagram indicates it is the more simple pivoting exercise. There are 2 quite different exercises. The fact that Dave Stuart gave you or demonstrated that exercise means it is quite a high level complex maneuver. He is known for them! The pivoting exercise is a simple one where the horse backs along the fence then steps it’s front end around it’s pivoting HQ until facing the other direction then moves away down the fence in the new direction. The only thing the horse has to learn is how to step it’s front legs across with the rider using a wide direct rein. The rider should remain centered & upright during the procedure. The rider’s outside leg can add rhythm to help the shoulder move across. The rider’s inside leg should open slightly but stay quiet near the girth with the toe pointing into the bend. I will describe the complex maneuver. There are several components to it & any of them can cause the horse to move wrong or the rider to develop bad habits. It is a bit like backing a horse float around a half circle then driving forward in the other direction. 
EG:- 1 horse should learn to step it’s front legs across each other first before adding an extra dimension hence more possibility of confusion. Horse should bend into the way of travel whilst learning the basic cross legs move. Rider should use a wide direct rein aslightly as possible particularly if using the halter. Outside leg should be slightly forward of the girth giving rhythmic guidence to the outside shoulder while the inside leg stays open but quiet at the girth with the toe pointing towards the bend so as not to create an indirect rein possibility for the horse to become confused over. The rider can develop bad habits like not giving a wide enough direct rein or starting at too high a phase on the rein hence creating a twist of the head or brace at the poll. Not sitting very centered & upright on the horse is another thing to watch for. Many riders will poke their butt out away from the bend to counterbalance the top half of their body if their core strength is not good enough. That causes the horse to step out of the turn rather than step across it’s front legs. Usually cross legs are taught 1 step at a time then slowly moving backward a few steps until the outside front leg is the next to move at which point the direct rein is used in conjunction with the outside leg aid to have the horse’s leg step across the other front rather than back. The inside front leg has to learn to step slightly behind absolute sideways so there is room for the crossing front leg. 2 Once the horse has learned to cross it’s front legs effectively pivoting on it’s HQ it should then be taught to rock back onto it’s HQ by lifting the rein as in backup but not enough to cause a backward step. That will strengthen horse’s loins, HQ, stomach & back legs. 3 Then the horse needs to be free flowing straight backwards on phase1 rein pulling itself backward not pushing itself backwardor dragging it'sfeet back. The rider uses an indirect outside rein (usually the support rein) to teach the horse to step to the side a little with each backward step. This can take quite a while for the horse to learn to do well. Putting the rider’s outside leg well back will help the horse get the idea of yielding away to create a turn or bend but they must still sit centered as there is a tendency to sit heavily on the inside seat bone which counteracts the bend we are asking the horse to make. We have spent months/years teaching our horse to back up straight, then out of the blue we want the horse to bend around! The horse can get claustrophobic about being too close to the rail if it hasn’t learnt to set back on it’s haunches properly as you ask it to start the bend & it will lift it’s head up over the rail tightening the whole front end in the process & breaking the horse in half psychologically. The horse needs to be going well on light contact so it's keeps it's head in a good lowered position of soft feel or towards vertical. 4 Only after those components are working should you start running the exercises together by combining the 2 the horse does the easiest first. The end result is a maneuver where the horse has to do a cross leg move but on the opposite bend ie rather than bending into the direction of the way of travel, it has to counter bend. If the horse doesn’t counter bend it can’t move backwards on the prescribed bend for this exercise. There would be a major human tendency to pull on the inside rein to force the bend in the body & or tighten the bend rather than push the bend by putting the outside leg well back to move the HQ over. The inside rein also become the support rein although it will be higher than the outside indirect rein. Once the horse has completed the necessary depth of bend(in this case being 180 degrees), the rider’s leg aids have to be swapped over so what was the inside of the bend now becomes the outside of the bend. The rider moves their new outside leg forward to help drive the front end across so the horse can leave the backup with good energy or it will end up on it’s front end. Since most horses are slightly tighter on one side than the other, they will bend much more freely going one way & will tend to fight the bend on the other side. It is a good exercise for equalizing the suppleness of both sides. I know which exercise I would be teaching my young horse first! I would try to do a video demo of the 2 exercises but my camera person will be away until this time next week.
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| jackspark |
Yes please C. video of these two would be very helpful I can wait!
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| alexwein |
These both sound very good. I like the one Blue Flame suggested and I am confident I know the correct way to teach this. So I will do that one for sure. I also really like the suggestions you made, Clarissa! My horse will pick Blue Flames exercise up very quickly, so I want to do both.
Yes, a video would be awesome. Much easier to make sure we are doing it all correctly. I really, really appreciate these suggestions! The biggest challenge with Dakota is keeping her mind engaged. She learns so darn fast, and doing these patterns is a much better way to really start to refine things and get her more supple both physically and mentally. Quite honestly, it's also a lot more fun for ME! Love this stuff!!! Thanks so much! |
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| Blue Flame |
Hi Clarissa,
I know the high level manouvre you are thinking of - have seen BB or maybe RH do it on video - it's for cutting cattle and is a backing turn and depart. This allows the horse to change direction with a cow that turns towards him and still remain facing the cow - so he never turns his HQ to the cow. It is very similar to what this pattern will help develop but us mere mortals will have the help of the rail for support in the learning phase. Oh, here it is - Buck Brannaman http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu5Jjo8hNGQ&feature=related specifically around 1:10 but the whole thing is worth watching. Note that this is very high level but the pattern is the early beginning of it. If you want you can imagine a herd of cows in the corner and you are keeping a cow you are working out of the herd. If your aid system is similar to Buck's, then you'll be able to pick up some leg position and timing tips from his vid. I wanted to avoid specific cues as different people use different cues for the same thing - some weight the outside, some weight the inside, some neck rein and some have contact, some move the outside leg foward and the inside back and some do it vice versa. What I saw Dave do, bearing in my mind that what I saw him do was probably only a fraction of what he did, was to have a little momentum while backing and then move his hands as a pair towards the rail - essentially guiding the FH to yield toward the rail and around so that the horse swung his FH around 180 degrees and faced the rail on the way past. Yes, the horse will likely raise it's head initially - it did that even for Dave. Anyone worried that their horse might rear up when intiating the FH yield from backup - I'd suggest you do it from the ground first intiating a backup along the rail then driving the front end to turn toward the rail and away from you. This should translate ok into the saddle if you have done any CS riding to push your turns. So position the horse between you and the rail at the corner with you at the shoulder and go into a backup together, then allow the horse to get a bit further along the rail than you and begin to drive or porcupine the front end over away from you and along the rail until you are both facing the other way. You should now be going forward with you between the horse and the rail. Stay at the horse's shoulder throughout so you don't end up in the kick zone. There is no need to hurry through this - calm and gradual and relaxed is all that is needed. Be careful that you don't cause the horse to jump out of the hole as he swings through 90 degrees as you might end up getting squished into the rail. He WILL have a tendency to go forward as he swings past 90 degrees because the squeeze caused by the turn will be opening up again on the other side of him and presenting him with space to move forwards into - that is one of the psychological aspects of the exercise which helps get an engaged departure - the space opening up in front of the horse. If you can think of it as a kind of backwards turning squeeze game - the front of the horse getting squeezed between the back of the horse and the rail, it should give you a bit of insight into what is going on for the horse mentally with this manouvre. Having said all that, we did not prep on the ground first with Blue Flame - he did raise his head intially, but he doesn't have much, if any, of a tendency to rear. Because Dave started and backed the horse right next to the rail, the only way the horse can get his front end to pass between his hind end and the rail is if he moves his hind end out of the way. The horse did NOT stop and pivot his HQ around his FH. What happened is that his hind end moved to the inside of the arena and his forehand carried on along the rail until the horse was facing the other way. In doing this, the horse will by necessity back at least a 1/4 turn. You go straight from the backup into this forehand yield towards the rail - the horse does not stop moving. The reins frame the neck and move over towards the rail together while the horse is backing up. I would tend to use the reins together whether neck reining or with contact. If you have done some carrot stick riding, using one may help because I think it is important to think of pushing this turn rather than pulling it. If your horse neck reins then I think it will come fairly easily. I would not be using alot of direct rein but rather pushing the turn with the outside rein on the neck. I did not see what Dave did with his legs or weight. I know what I would do, but it may be different to what others would do to get the same result depending on the aid system they use. Dave didn't go into detail about it as he only rode this horse (the clinic hosts youngster) for about 5 minutes to give her an idea of what she could do with him to progress further. Initially, I would not be too fussed about asking for specific bend - the horse will have enough to sort out - but the beauty of the exercise is that he will largely sort all that out himself as he learns what he is expected to do. I think if you keep it simple by just asking for the forehand to yield towards the rail, by about the 3rd to 5th time you'll be pleasantly surprised. He will by neccessity move his HQ into the arena to make room for his front end - but since a horse would rather go forwards than backwards - as soon as he has made enough room for his front end to swing through the gap between his hind end and the rail his instinct to go forwards as the space in front of him opens up will cause him to engage. The natural reluctance of a horse to go backwards working with the rail has a tendency to gather/collect the horse because of the squeeze situation, it will be at a maximum halfway through the FH yield when he is 90 degrees to the rail so there will be stored energy there wanting to go forward as the other side opens up for him. That's when you get the engaged departure. Oh, and make sure you don't ask for forwards until the horse has turned at least 90 degrees or he'll get bound up and might shoot back into the corner. At that point when the horse's hind end stops moving out of the way and begins to engage, that is when you will be getting a fleeting moment of the stepping over FH yield. I don't recall having videoed Miki doing this with Blue Flame, but I'll check with her - ya never know. I would say just get out there and try it. We could get very technical about it but if you take the attitude that the rider is learning just as much as the horse - and the horse can do no wrong, I'm fairly confident you'll learn faster by doing it. The finer points can come later and the horse will show you what he is capable of for the moment. Then later on you can experiment with what you can do to help him do it better. You don't want to blow his mind or put him in a bind by throwing 50 aids at him all at once. I think there is some value in showing the horse where he is going before working on how he is going. |
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| Clarissa |
Oh gosh yes BF I remember seeing Dave do that one too!
There are so many versions. Actually there is across over here in topics a bit. You were reminding me of Chip Johnson on another thread about Chablis's horse's hoof. I met Chip at a Ken Faulkner clinic several years ago. He gave us a demo & talk about hoof trimming & helped in the clinic a while. We did a lot of cattle work & Chip showed us a series of exercises much like the one you have described here. That is the one I went into detail about & I probably learned it at that clinic. If Chip taught it, it may have been cutting or reining oriented.  ...the fog of time clears a little....  
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| Jack |
Some good ideas have been suggested. The maneuver that many are talking about is what I call a "roll back". It results in the horses weight shifting backward and pivoting on the "outside rear" leg. The drill which has been diagramed is an excellent one for practicing this move.
Reiners also "spin" their horses which is practiced quite differently and results in the horse pivoting on the inside hind leg. This maneuver is accomplished only when the horse is moving forward into the spin. Here are a couple of interesting vids. for those that enjoy visual examples. Larry Trocha teaching the beginning reining spin. You can find the continuing lessons on you tube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbR92SUdhcM&feature=related This is Joe Wolter doing a drill that has really helped me with my horses. Instead of a tarp I drag a tube sock filled with sand. You could also use a Garocha pole but it's harder to control. I really like this excercise for many reasons. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYWUbZTO9rI&feature=player_embedded These vids both offer a nice example of learning to move the shoulders over. Both are great excercises for the young horse and rider. Jack |
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| alexwein |
Jack, these are great, thanks! Looks like the Joe Wolter example has both fq and hq turns, correct? Hqs over, then fq over. I like that way of doing it. Keeps the horse fluid while it still isolates both ends. I would think this is a good suppling exercise. And you combine that with dragging something! Gets them used to that too, and would seem to be a good confidence builder. A lot for the rider to focus on, though. Ha. I can see that being a bit awkward at first, but it will be a good suppling exercise for me too!
I want to watch both more carefully to see exactly what is happening with the feet. That is interesting about the outside versus inside leg for turning. One is a turn, one a pivot, like that? I don't know much about reining, though my horse comes from reining stock. There are a lot of reining folks around here, but I'm not sure that's something I want to do. But the exercise in the video looks really good for any kind of riding I'd want to do. Really like them both, thanks so much. Please pass along anything else you really like for working young horses. |
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| Blue Flame |
Jack, those clips are really good.
I can see many similarities going on for the horse mentally with the pattern that I made the diagram for. In the spinning clip - he makes the point about the horse losing impulsion because he doesn't think he is going anywhere so disengages the HQ and to fix it by going somewhere immediately after the turn. In the pattern I posted, this is done for you in 2 ways - first because the space opens up in front of the horse as he completes the turn and second because he has a destintation to get to (the corner). It is great for maintaining impulsion through a manouvre. Chip Johnson, after having you do some manouvre or other almost always immediately said, "Now GO someplace!!". I guess that was what that was all about - developing and maintaining impulsion. Dave Stuart also had us doing things where you had to go somewhere immediately after you had done something. e.g. Ride to (more like at) the tree, back-up, turn and immediately ride to another destination before stopping. . . . . impulsion and engagement. In the second clip, the tarp provides some pressure to the horse which helps with which end he is going to move. The horse's inclination is to move away from the tarp - more specifically, to move the end of himself nearest the tarp away. First he disengages to turn and face - simulating crossing the flight response finish line, then he moves his front away from the tarp as he would do to turn and leave something he wants to move away from. I'd be careful with this tarp exercise because it seems to work largely by using the flight response to your advantage. I can see things getting quite Western with some horses. Great videos and great exercises. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Those are all great videos. Good examples of why I love reining and working on a reining horse. Or a cow horse, which really is reining put to work.
Funny how differently the dressage approach is to develop a horse, with no to little backwards work. It is such a staple for working horses. It's also the key to a good square stop. |
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| Blue Flame |
I guess it might have something to do with the horse's job. Dressage coming mainly as a development aspect of cavalry and war horses - essentially either messenger horses or mobile weapons platforms. The original 3 day eventing tests (designed for proving horses ready for service) don't have any requirement for backwards so far as I recall - so I guess no emphasis is really placed on it in training. Rein back seems to be something that is only used either for opening gates or for developing more engaged transitions. I also think the breeds used might have a bit to do with it as well - and their tendencies to do certain things. We have 2 Appies in the herd and 1 Paint after years of nothing but thorobreds. The differences in the way they think (or not), move react is quite a stark contrast. A thorobred will generally tend not to go backwards in play or when scared if they have the option to turn and go forwards. Only time I've really seen thorobreds backup when on their own is when they're grazing and they're standing on the yummy bits. |
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| Hertha |
Karen Rohlf's book and DVDs are also a good programme for bringing a horse along - more along dressage lines but still allround good basic stuff on a Parelli base. | ||||
| Jack |
Blue Flame your right about Joe Wolters use of the tarp and how he's using the horses natural "fear/energy" to help with the turns. I believe he's riding a very green colt in this vid. It sure can get western if the horse isn't first desensitized to the rope, especially if the rope gets under the tail. "Hang on",
The clover leaf pattern is a standard known to many trainers. It is a great excercise used for many fundamental reasons. This vid of Stacey Westfall shows her using it occassionally while giving a demo at Equine Affair. This is one variation of the pattern which can be ridden in many different manners. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-kop90Wrg8 This is my version of the cloverleaf. The horse is experiencing a 'bit' for the first time and it's the first time I've ridden him so it's not the prettiest picture but I think it will give you some idea of the pattern I use. Click on the picture to see video. 
Jack |
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| alexwein |
Jack,
How did you bit him out? The way I've traditionally done it is to put the bit in the horse's mouth and leave it for an hour (under observation). Then I do a bit of guiding from the ground with it to give the horse the idea. Then off it comes until the next day when I put in the bit. If the horse is still fighting it I give it a bit of time to calm down, then get up on it and start riding with the bit doing exercises very like your video. Any other thoughts on this? I'm about to bit out my filly since I finally got my new training snaffle!! Alex |
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| Jack |
Alex, this fella was a bit different than most I mess with. He is an 11 yo that wasn't gelded until 8. He had already been through two other trainers and was completly untrusting of humans and head shy to the extreme. My son did all the ground work with him. Spending a lot of time on head lowering and softening of the neck. Son had been riding him for a week in a halter but I decided to just "go on and bit him up" to see what happened. This horse was typical for my area, rarely had his feet done and I'm certain that his teeth had never been looked at. Most of the head tossing was just his way of expressing himself to somebody taking control. I just let him work it out and today he's got a new owner and a happy home. Doesn't always work out like that, lol.
With most horses I do the same as you've described though I do begin by just placing the lead rope in the mouth as an introduction. Here's a pic of a mare I started myself. It might show better what I mean by using the lead rope as an introduction to the bridle. 
Jack |
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| alexwein |
Hi Jack. Nice to see your pic. Yes, I've seen that done but never done it myself. I will try that. I have had a bit in her mouth twice, but in reality it was too big and a pretty crappy bit, so didn't leave it in and I decided to wait until I had a good one. I think it sounds good, though, to also give her an intro to having something in her mouth that is soft and chewy and not so harsh as a piece of metal. Transitions are good!
Thanks again! |
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| alexwein |
Just want to say that today was a milestone event for Dakota! I didn't bit her out the way I usually do. I had the snaffle in her mouth for about 20 minutes yesterday when I did my ground work with her, then again today. She was doing so well with it, I decided to attach the reins and do a bit of guidance from the ground. I left on her rope halter with the lead attached to help guide her, since that is what she is used to (had the lead wrapped around the horn).
Anyway, she got this new concept quite quickly when I combined direct rein with the snaffle with guidance via the halter and lead. Had her flex on both sides, stop and back up while walking with her on the ground. That was working well enough for me to get up on her and have a session with the bit! She did much better then expected. I'm going to keep our sessions short, but am excited about getting her soft with the bit. I'll graduate to a bosal after she's good with the snaffle. No telling how long that will be. I'm looking forward to getting her very soft with it, and the exercises here will help. Tried the one with the diagram yesterday with the rope halter and she did well with it. Of course, everything with her is just at the beginning stages! |
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| Blue Flame |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Jack,
I think a lot more of your training after this thread. I do wish you lived closer. There are times I could use some savvy MALE help with a horse, and around here they are all into the "Cowboy Up" mentality, no thought to pressure or softness. I can't begin to tell you all the problems I have with men here messing up horses who are just too sensitive for that approach. I bit very similarly to Jack, using a jacinta (rope through surgical tubing) and letting the horse wear it for a few days with no reins until it isn't an issue. Then the bit is put in and carried also for a few days without reins. If the horse is food oriented, a fruit rollup wrapped around the port helps. Then I double rein from the bosal and and the bit, gradually (over the course of a year) transitioning cues to the bit. I find horses started like this have no resistance to the bit and are soft mouthed. Of course it does depend on what bit you transition to. If you are going to snaffle, the transition is short because the snaffle is a lateral tool. You can't transition to a shanked bit until the horse is doing all his lateral work off your legs, weight, and focus. The three things I work with green horses are turning, transitions, and despooking or obstacles. |
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| alexwein |
Just to update. I went right from the rope halter to the snaffle. I introduced it to her more slowly, in about 20-30 minute increments for two days. She did well enough with it to attach the reins and start her in it. After three sessions, she accepted it wonderfully and we are doing everything with the snaffle now. I'm amazed at just how responsive she is. She is responding beautifully to my leg too. Amazing horse. I've worked mostly with T-bred types and I have to say, they never learned this quickly or this well. I think there is too much going on in their busy minds, too much worry. This young girl, a quarter horse with some t-bred influence, is calm, accepting, highly intelligent. The major thing in working with her is respect. Not her being disrespectful, because she rarely is. But me being respectful in how I communicate with her. 'Ask nicely' is the key phrase. When I forget myself and get too forceful or lose my temper a bit, she resists and lets me know she's not impressed! If I'm fair and respectful, yet firm, she responds with acceptance and willingness.
I'm definitely getting to know my girl even better! I worked with her on the ground for about 8 or 9 months before starting her under saddle, so we have a really solid relationship. It is serving me well! I have tried the different suggestions here and she's doing well enough with them. She still has a hard time backing straight and against the fence. Her forehand yields are lovely, hq yields okay and sidepassing is a bit bracey. That is due to a temporary misstep with a bit of Clinton Anderson and getting too forceful in asking for a sidepass. Horses never forget, eh? So I'm paying for my bit of temporary insanity in trying out that kind of technique. Definitely not for me or my girl! I'm just so impressed with how well she's doing in the snaffle and how well she is doing in general. I've ridden seasoned horses who don't turn as nicely as she does, and all that work 'following the feel' is really paying off for us. I cantered her today for the first time and it was another non-event. She's a bit squirrely with it, but of course, this was her first time! |
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| jackspark |
Alex, really living vicariously through you right now so keep the posts coming! Amazing how responsive they are when ya know what you are doing. Knuckles up on the canter, we haven't made if that far yet but have it on the back burner for this fall. Take it slow with the ankle and all; you don't need to bring the learning to a screeching halt
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| alexwein |
Thanks!! The ankle is still an issue. I can't quite keep my foot in the stirrup and put weight on it at that angle. So everything since the accident has been without stirrups. That's why the cantering is limited right now. The last thing she needs is me losing my balance with her first efforts at cantering with me sitting on her back! I just wanted to get her to canter a bit and she did going both ways, in and out of the round pen. I can't do much of it until the ankle is a bit farther along. On the other hand, I can walk normally and it feels soooooo much better. It was really bad for a bout 2.5 weeks, went to the doc and found out nothing was fractured. I was starting to wonder. Then, it started to heal really fast. The really injured part is on the outside, around the outside ankle bone. Those ligaments took a beating, but they aren't torn, thank goodness! Anyway, you nurse that head of yours! I'll keep posting updates so you can have a ride of sorts. We are having a session with a local trainer on Tuesday which should be interesting! I have a photo I could show you, but I forgot my helmet and am not wearing one and I'm afraid you'll yell at me. I am wearing a bandana, but I'm guessing that wouldn't protect my head, eh? I usually do wear one, I promise!!
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| alexwein |
Had another great session with Dakota. Remembered my helmet this time. I started cantering her, so definitely wanted to be sure I had it. My ankle was able to be in the stirrup the whole time, which was great. I need to get her into the round pen to canter the next time, though, since she gets a bit over excited about it. But her responsiveness to both leg and hand is kind of astonishing, given how green she is. I've ridden LOTS of green horses at her stage of development, and can't remember any one of them being as able to 'follow a feel' as my girl. So nice that groundwork is so transferable to the saddle!!
I'm getting a lesson with a local trainer on Tues. and want to get some 'next step' exercises and patterns to do with Dakota. Also planning to get her out onto the trail soon with an older horse to shadow. I have several friends who have offered to do this for me. This picture is from our last session, sans the helmet. I know, I know, and I agree! I need to use that thing ALL the time. But wanted to share this anyway. I wasn't using my stirrups that day either. So glad that is resolving itself: 
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| jackspark |
I forgive you Alex! Just make sure you keep yourself safe, I'm relying on your posts with Dakota to make up for my inability to ride Gem. We cantered once and I felt the same way....... she gets her adrenaline up even at a trot so we'll take that slow when I can get back to it this fall.
Nice pic, love the dressage whip! I never go anywhere without mine, esp now when I need to keep all farm animals away from me and my dumb ribcage! Thinking about taking it with me the first week of school to keep kids from huggin and high fiving me
Keep up the great work with D. She will continue to be a delight, I'm sure! |
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| alexwein |
Not sure how I missed this one, but I also loved MR's Developing Softness dvd. And the light vs. soft was also a huge light bulb moment for me. I have been doing yoga for many years, so that was also something I could relate to! A lot came from that dvd and I recommend it often to people. Love MR in general--his books too. I have his dvd on footfall and another on finding the try. All really good stuff! |
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| alexwein |
Glad you forgive me! I'll give you an update after our lesson with the trainer. I'm going to work a bit on getting her more relaxed in the lope using the round pen and tune up her yields a bit, but won't add anything till after Tuesday. I'm also going to give her tomorrow off. She deserves it!
I will be curious to see what the trainer thinks about where we are. She's not in a line with the 'feel' based approach I'm using and learning, but she's still a good trainer with lots of experience. She'll be able to see things and give suggestions, and I can go off and work on those things in my own way. This Sept., if I can get that pesky truck and trailer I need, I'll be going to at least one clinic with Brent Graef, the person I would really like to be working with on an ongoing basis. As for the dressage whip, yep, they are quite handy. Light enough to be very responsive in my hand, I can give the lightest of touches, while it still being enough to get her attention if needed! I definitely recommend using them on the kids if they get too rowdy.
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| alexwein |
Had a really good session with the local trainer. She told me I had Dakota 'well broke,' which is a compliment, I guess. We focused on putting things together. I'd taught Dakota leg cues and yields, but wanted some exercises to put it altogether. She gave me those and some really good tips on how to help Dakota not blow out at the shoulder, stay straight, etc. It was very helpful.
I then found some short YouTube Buck Brannaman clips with him demonstrating the serpentine, isolating the forehand and hind end while keeping the horse balanced and moving, and groundwork with soft feel. Just got his Making the Bridle Horse 1 & 2, and am seeing that I will have a LOT to work with for the next few rides! Dakota is doing wonderfully with the snaffle. Still chews on it a bit, but is getting pretty soft with it. Her turns are improving greatly and she feels much more balanced overall. She's still a very young, green horse, of course. It's so hard to NOT want to do more and ride her every day. I'm having such a blast with her! Still want to get her on the trail soon. Mostly I'm working with getting her more supple and soft and doing it the best I can. I love the BBrannaman material! It was just what I was looking for. Nice little patterns and exercises for suppling the horse while teaching them yields and cues. My only obstacle right now is the canter. Not because she won't do it, nor am I worried at all about cantering, but because my ankle won't take the stress right now. I got her into a canter without much ado, but I need stirrups to keep me balanced since she gets pretty squirrely at higher speeds. I can now get my foot into the stirrup but can't put any real pressure on it. So she told me to wait until my ankle heals a bit more and she also has me upping the energy level with D. at a really fast trot and then slowing her, up and down, to show her there is nothing to worry about. No big deal. And I'm in no rush. So we are working on soft stuff, which is the really interesting stuff anyway. But I'm also giving her plenty of time off. She's still a youngster, after all. One day a good ride, working on stuff, then two days off. I take her for hand walks and spend time on the ground with her. Don't want it to be all about training and working for her anyway. |