80/20

Niek · 80/20

I think this has his place here to. ITs something that generaly causes some discussion and nice thoughts.

I personally listen to my horse, and like the concept by karen : ride your freestyle in the finesse. As long as im not micromanaging, it think im on the right track. Correct movements and collection is something challenging for the horse to. Guidling the horse (without making him or saying things for him) can only help..

your thoughts ?

supertrooper

I would strongly agree. Back when I started Parelli I had been into showing my horse as a pleasure horse and doing Horsmanship/Equitation classes. I was always trying to be precise. Once I started playing around with doing alot of my pattern work freestyle things got really good. I really did feel like my horse got smarter (or maybe it was the other way around). His movement got alot better and it was like all of a sudden things became really easy for him. Almost as if once he was not being micromanaged he was able to think about moving in a way that felt good on his own.

Horse Gypsy

I think the 80/20 thing has to do with making sure your horse is moving freely forward and straight with out micromanaging. I think if you have reached a point where your horse knows what his responsibilty is- maintain gate, maintain direction, look where you are going - you probably don't have to follow 80/20 anymore. Even in Dressage they want a horse to go straight and forward first, before you really ask for any connection from back to front- so you don't build in any crookedness.

supertrooper

I dont know that it no longer becomes nessesary at a certain point. If you watch Karen she still follows that rule with Monty and he is way beyond just going straight and forward. I think good freestyle just keeps making your finesse better and better.

Horse Gypsy

That is true, I kind of thing Karen is at a slightly different level than most. she could be doing a piaffe bridless so is that freestyle or finesse?
Than there is the issue of a horse that is completely out of balance freestyle- normal parelli freestyle I think is counter productive for that situation, whereas KR style freestyle and the let loose posture could possibly be considered micromanaging- I do not think it is- I think it is the ultimate in freestyle to teach your horse that it is ok to be free in his body on a loose rein or with no reins- but that is not what Parelli or Pat teaches.

happycat

Niek

Leah

I would like to define Fresstyle and Finesse.

Does Freestyle mean just loose moving but still forward and straight?

Does it mean ok to be crooked, inverted, on the forehand or not?

IF it is ok I find it could be damaging to do 80/20

BUT if it means something like a 'hack out' then ok.

Make sense?

Gallop On

Niek

well in this case its more : of to whom does it mather its ok ?

Gallop On

I'm just talking about in Parelli Inc land.

In Bad Apple land, we believe in correct self-carriage, yes?

calatar

For me, fessstyle is riding on a loose rein and although I am not asking for collection I will correct a horse that is strung out, hollow backed, on the forehand, crooked, etc.

PasoBaby_CarolU

I spent most of last winter doing freestyle and carrot stick riding. When I went to collect for gait in the early summer it wasn't there. So, I made a new 'rule' that Freestyle had to be collected enough to be in gait on a loose rein. It took some time to get there and I now consistently require her to be in frame and gait during Freestyle.

I still loose gait and go to trot with carrot sticks but will correct that too this riding season.

How that translates to a trotting horse is up to you, but I do think too much riding strung out and on the front end is NOT good physically for any horse.

Horse Gypsy

This is interesting. I actually really believe in getting horses out of the arena or out of a concentrated riding situation 50% of the time. Trail riding/ hacking, long walks on a loose rein, going up and down hills whatever. The other 50% of the time I think should be a little more focused-- follow the rail/ trial- go to this point of that, figure 8's, etc- some of that should be on a loose rein and some of it on a soft contact- but how much depends on the horse- rules don't really fit most horses.

Julie

I spend about 10% of my time in the school but about 80% of my time in finesse! I do most of my work hacking and also teaching self carriage. If ou ride in self carriage yourself and your horse has the correct uscle to carry both of you, you will remain in finesse as thats what he is happiest doing.

supertrooper

I think it definatley has to do with your definition of F/S and FNS. Like Leah said, if your horse is allowed to travel crooked and hollow it does kick out the benefits. I dont think there should be alot of difference in the body shape that your horse is giving you between F/S and FNS. Self-Carriage is Self-Carriage. If I allowed my horse to go crooked in F/S then how could I expect him to go straight in FNS? Watching Karens youtube video she goes back and forth in F/S and FNS and the body shape stays pretty much the same. Sure she IS on a different playing field but that does not mean its not a goal in my mind.

Leah

kristenhorseluv

It's tricky to define Freestyle as on loose reins though because then I would never do Freestyle with Oscar but I feel like that's all I do with him. I have to ride him on more of a BS rein unless he's earned a really loose rein. To me Freestyle means, travel correctly but I'm not asking you for anything fantastic, we're not "working" on anything we're just getting warmed up, loosening up our body and our mind. Finesse is already let's get down to business. I would say I do closer to 80% finesse with 20% freestyle with Jill, but I generally only ride her 30 minutes because it's really all she needs. I warm her up with a nice long walk where she gets to pick her pace and where her head goes and all that then we do a nice big trot until she relaxes into it, sometimes I'll do some circles or lifting of her shoulders if she feeling funky then I move into what I consider more of a finesse. I start this by working on yields both haunches and shoulders and I begin to ask her to collect up some, then we begin working on her western pleasure gaits, jog and lope with her pitched away. She carries her head naturally low so I don't worry about head set much, just consistency, collection and speed. If I run into anything here, I isolate and go back to what I'm doing. Then I work on horsemanship patterns, once I get one or two good ones, we take a nice long walk break freestyle and then back to a little bit of western pleasure gaits, generally a lap of jog and lope in each direction.

I set it up this way because when I show the western pleasure class can come before or after the equitation class, plus every now and then the equitation class will have an on the rail portion. If it's the weekend, I'll throw in working on some trail stuff. I always end with a nice long freestyle walk around everyone where she can explore and look at stuff, and I end every ride with learning something new or working on something tricky, so sidepassing, turns on the haunches or forehand, backing, etc.

Wow, I do the same thing every time I ride. I have this memorized. She's RBI so likes consistency, now the above can stop at any moment if she gives me something really incredible, because she has a marey LBI streak and if she offers me something I totally love, I'll just dismount and handgraze her to end the day. When I'm teaching her something new, I do this a lot. So when I first taught her to lope, she'd do like 5 strides and I'd stop her and pop off and hand walk her to cool out. She's a mare and LBI and very smart so she really appreciates this.

Oscar is a nut ball. I've not added any finess anything in except I do a lot of yields with him the entire time I'm riding. He likes to stiffen up and when he does that he uses it against me to take off. If I don't keep him supple, I end up on a run away board.

Horse Gypsy

Leah, would you like to share what type of saddle you are waiting on?? Please?? angel8

Leah

Don't ask.

I am in saddle hell.

I have FIVE saddles to demo. Both of my horses have very broad backs. One has withers and one does not SO I can't use one saddle on both.

Neither will fit in a normal saddle.

SO...I have a Black Country Hoop tree coming in 2 sizes, and a Detente Merlin coming in 2 sizes.

Hugo traces to a XXXXW tree

Milo is a wide with withers and a broad back.

If none of these work I am going back to Carol Brett and getting 2 Balance saddles.

THEN my Barefoot Cheyenne no longer fits either one so I have a Freeform coming to demo (for trails)...and may have to try a Sensation as well.

I am choking on this.

supertrooper

Why are you selling the Ansur?? I thought you loved those??

Leah

Ugh...don't ask.

My is actually too wide for it.

creekwood

off topic here (love the subject btw) - Leah have you checked out specialized saddles? specializedsaddles.com

supertrooper

carefreegirl

Hey Leah,

I noticed you are doing P90X, so are me and my hubby; though we aren't following the program exactly--just doing it about 3 times a week instead of everyday, but we love it, and are starting to see some improvement in ourselves, we are almost through the first week of exercises, and on to the second. We bought it as a gift to each other. I'm looking forward to the way it will improve me, getting ready for the summer and more riding, Yay.

Leah

P90X ROCKS!!! But you already know I think that! LOLOL

Good for you taking it on! Fantastic stuff!

carefreegirl

Yep it is fun, and it does ROCK!

Julie

What is that??

What tye of horse is xxxxw Leah??

I thought our breeds were bad but never seen one that wide, unless you are talking the 8x or 6x balance sizings!

LoveMyTB

Anyone care to explain 80/20? No idea what it is.

Guessing from the posts on this thread that it's a "standard" division of collected vs. non-collected work?

Horse Gypsy

What is P90X?

carefreegirl

Happyappy98

Happyappy98

PasoBaby_CarolU

AlythLong

I have been trying to find where 80/20 was talked about in the old levels packs. I know it is there somewhere!
As I have always understood it we should spend 80% of our riding time in freestyle. This includes warming up and down, using our horse as transport, hacking out. Using a relaxed frame and long reins. "Long and low"?
20% of our riding time should be finess, using contact and a more concentrated frame.
This has always made complete sense to me. You don't jump onto your horse, get concentrated, school for an hour then jump off and put him away!!! Or I hope you don't !!!!
Alyth