Allure's 'catatonic' state

Chris · Allure's 'catatonic' state

This has been rattling around in my head for awhile now....

Remembering Linda recount Allure's instances of going 'catatonic,' at first during times of stress (when he felt over-pressured), then whenever he was given a cookie, made me think.....in conjunction with his diet, his cresty-neck......could this "catatonic" state be caused by a medical condition?

She said this state was very dramatic and severe, to the point where she could not even lead him.....if that was present before she bought him, you'd think the previous owners would have noticed and mentioned it? So did he only begin to exhibit this after she bought him?

In the DVD which had Pat playing with a newly-acquired Allure ("playing the Seven Games with a horse for the first time"), there is certainly no evidence of this "catatonic" behavior. I'd think that if he would react by going "catatonic," in response to interaction with a human, he for sure would have done it then, with Pat playing all Seven Games with him for the very first time, in front of cameras.

Although if he came out of it quickly, maybe I'm way out in left field with this train of thought....I just can't help but wonder if there is a medical condition behind his behavior, and if it is a mistake to pin everything on "horsenality," and pinning a human psychiatric term to a horse's reaction to external events.

Just my thoughts.....

Nashama

Often catatonia is a response to pain. The horse is in pain and shuts down mentally when forced to do something that causes more pain.

Something a lot of people never realise, including breeders and breakers, is those accidents so many young horses have and brush off at the time, later can cause a lot of issues, including catatonia when the horse is ridden. In my experience, RB's are particularly prone to it as for them its all about survival.

Chris

Good point......but I don't think this can explain Allure's response to being given a cookie.

I wonder if he does it at all anymore?

Nashama

Cookies/food would be associated with whatever memories and associations he has of cookies. Perhaps cessation of pain or pressure, if only momentarily? The human stops long enough to give him his cookie and let him eat it. I have seen this more often with natural horsemanship horses than with traditionally trained horses.

Horses can also go completely internal and appear catatonic, to the point where they fall over, during some bodywork treatments. I had to wake Aslaan up 4 time last night when treating his hind quarters. He's not actually catatonic, just so focussed on the sensations and the sense of security the clinician gives him during treatment that he's oblivious to anything else. I am not so sure about Allure and I have not handled him, but there is also this facet with some horses that they get really secure in an environment and just internalise to the point where they appear catatonic. Once again, I find RB horses more prone than LB horses to it. Aslaan is an RBI. Their survival reality appears to be they are in this completely safe place and they seem to make the most of it, never mind they have most of their 500kg leaning on the clinician.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Bien goes catatonic when you brush her. She lowers her head and just disappears in the feeling. I don't think going catatonic is always associated with bad events. She loves being brushed.

I've seen many show horses go "into themselves" in the show ring. I've also seen horses that disappear there to the point they are dangerous to ride. Some even go there the instant you pick up the reins.

It's very sad what human egos do to horses.

Nashama

Properly trained photonic therapists and massage therapists are actually trained to be aware horses do this. LB's don't seem to lose themselves anywhere near the amount RB's seem to. Sham is an LBE, and it takes enormous pressure to get him to go catatonic, yet the RB's, like Aslaan, click your fingers and they are there with photonic therapy. I don't know whether my trainers have made the connection between RB's and this 'otherworld' state, but it's really obvious to me which horses I might have to wake up when treating during the initial assessment period.

I think that maybe there are 2 forms - the horse GO's to a happy place or the horse is IN a happy place.

With therapy, and perhaps the cookies, the experienced recipient horse knows therapy is a happy place and is quite happy to go there with the therapist looking out for him.

With stressful stuff the horse go's to his happy place 'lalalalala I can't hear you and you can't hurt me in this happy place'.

Interestingly, both are very dangerous places for the human. BOTH the horse can snap out of it suddenly and you are on the ground in pain. That's why photonic therapists get that training.

Julie

Amazing how many horses I have seen zone out when actually doing parelli. i saw one zone out when clicker training today!

becdubie

Can you tell the difference between zoning out and "I'm bored, I'd rather be sleeping?"

Julie

Yep - they had definately left the building!

Nashama

Yep, a lot of horses do it during the 7 Games because they are either bored t death or have been pressured so much without ever being allowed to release. This was the downside of the dominance theories.

Chablis

Mandy'sMarty

I suspect that horses 'zone out', 'go to their happy place', go catatonic as a survival strategy. A survival strategy somewhat like cribbing and weaving. A prey animal's extreme way of coping with being restrained and not being able to escape physically in a domestic world. That's the dark side of my assessment.

On the bright side, I often experience my mare go 'internal', as Nashama describes, when I massage her, do body work, and even energy work with her. I also suspect that horses are able to dream with their eyes open while in this catatonic state.

Mandy came to me with a severe pull-back issue. I believe it was caused by an accident many years ago. She had several owners before me so I have not been able to confirm this. We've worked on it quite a bit and PP Dan Thompson even used her during a clinic as a demonstration horse in his attempt to 'cure' her of this. Mandy was an extreme LBI when I found her 4 years ago. She is innately much more LBE.

Mandy rarely presents this behavior now but several months ago she very suddenly exploded out of nap. She often falls asleep when I cradle her head in my arms and massage her face and TMJ. At the time, she was tied off as usual while I fed her. We were both zoned out when she suddenly erupted and pulled back...very hard. It took only a second to calm her and reassure her that I was there and she was OK. But during that split second, I could feel her panic. I am convinced that somehow I inadvertently applied too much pressure on her halter, causing her to associate that sensation with the panic she had experienced long ago. Perhaps she re-lived that panic momentarily as a dream. As soon as she was wide awake, she relaxed again in my arms and licked and chewed.

Nashama

Yes, Emma, I do remember that. I wish I knew half of what Di knows, but I am working on it! Endorphin release can be a few spots - front legs, nose, back, withers.

Riding schools - lets just say I would not take one of my horses into one for a school. Something common in all is my impression of a wave of depression when the instructors appear to saddle the horses for lessons. The only one I have ever been in is Kings Hill where I have not felt that.

Speaking of mental engagement or non engagement, you all would have had a big laugh last night. Mr LBE knew it was his night to be treated, waiting, waiting, waiting at the gate, how dare I greet the man before the stallion! By the time I got there he was in a mood, hurry up, slave! Then he gave me a hard time striking and pawing and showing me his left foreleg, grabbing the torch, trying to put me in position to do what he wanted me to do. Eventually patterns completed for essential and shoulder points, I did his miscellaneous points, like his left foreleg. About time! says he, and gives me his hoof. I did the heels and he was happy. I did the tendons and he started grooming me. Some days I think the RBI being grateful enough to just absorb what I do is preferable to an LBE that tells you exactly what you should be doing!

Chris

That is pretty funny, Nashama!

Hmmm.....so it seems most of you think horses can go "catatonic" in response to pressure, stress, or pain.......

.....but the blissful "zoning out" in response to being given treats, being brushed, or being given a message or any other type of body work sounds like something completely different. This would be a positive thing, I would think. The horse feels safe enough to zone out and enjoy these things in the presence of his or other humans.

The term "catatonic" has a very negative and horrible meaning, and I don't think it should be used lightly.

It seems Linda uses this term to describe horses that "go internal" when they can't deal with pressure or pain or stress. She has applied this description to Allure when he became stressed in reaction to pressure, and then also to when he was given a cookie.

Stress raises blood glucose levels. So do treats.......so getting back to my original thought, I just can't help but wonder if something physiological could have contributed to Allure's state, and not just a behavioral coping strategy.

Horse Gypsy

My horse Finnagan goes catatonic-- and I am leaning toward Pain being the cause of it-- he has had most of the past year off--for a variety of reasons-- but I recently started using a new vet/chiropractor- who I love-- and she said that his sacrum was out-- and I think it has been for years-- and he has some other misalignments. So I found Nashamas comment to be really true.
Sometimes it is emotional pain--or phyisical or both-- that is where I am at with my horse-- Heck-- I gave mine who does that a year off-- It is just now that I think he is starting to want to do something-- but this time I am going to have him looked at and ajusted as needed.