Archive for It's About The Horse The Free Forum for those Doing Parelli - and a whole lot More! "Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful." Xenophon (430-355 B.C.),
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Hosslass
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Am I seeing things? I hope I'm mistaken...OK, if this subject has been approached before please let me know. I am watching the Freestyle Patterns DVD (rented from Horseflix). I'm a little disturbed by some of the gait rhythms of Aspen and Vanna on small circles to the right and in some of the loping patterns. When Pat is riding them on small circles (like the Seven Games with an Obstacle or the Question box) they both look like they are travelling "off", almost a grade one lameness.
I'm thinking, Pat, aren't you feeling this?
Has anyone else noticed this, or am I crazy?
I'm just a little gun shy about spotting irregularities in gait rhythms because I just spent a year taking one of my boarders horses back and forth to a lameness expert vet every month as part of a clinical study on naviculiar. I watched countless small circles on several of the trial horses and was taught how to spot when a horse is off, because the small circles don't lie.
Thanks, and it's ok to tell me I'm seeing things..... 
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cheerios
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I can't comment on the DVD specifically, because I haven't seen it.
Have you seen this statistic before?
| Quote: | “Of the 122 million equines found around the world, no more than 10 percent are clinically sound.
Some 10 percent (12.2 million) are clinically, completely and unusably lame.The remaining 80 percent (97.6 million) are somewhat lame, and could not pass a soundness evaluation test.”
- American Farriers Journal, Nov. 2002, v.26 #6, p.5. |
Sometimes I think these numbers are high, other times I don't. (I still haven't been able to track down exactly how they came up with this number.)
From what I've seen of the Parelli's hoofcare, and from what I've seen concerning gaits and motions of their horses, I would venture to say that many of their horses are not 100% sound. So, I'd guess what you're seeing very well could be lameness.
Of course, the horse could be mostly sound for some riding, especially on straight lines. It's those darn tight circles, though that really tell the truth sometimes about soundness. And there are many people, I think, who seem to be okay with riding horses that are slightly off, as long as they're not really noticeably lame.
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Horse Gypsy
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My 2 cents on this are-- Are you 100% sound, is your horse? Because the answer is probably no. I sort of think there is a difference between having perfectly sound horse and a lame one. I don't think any horse is 100%- just like I am right handed- but I still get out and exercise. I haven't watched those videos in a while however- I just don't think any horse is really 100% = unless they are being artificially supported with injections and other stuff.
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Julie
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I agree horsegypsy! my vet says he could fail 90 % of horses when vetting on soundness as every horse has a good and bad side!
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PasoBaby_CarolU
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I would have to agree too. I can't honestly think of a single horse that is perfect - well, except for mine.  -
I mean how many people do you know that are 100% healthy? Maybe some youngsters, but we all start to fall apart after a few injuries and extra weight and genetics kicks in to give us sore joints, etc.
Why should horses be any different. I imagine that the closest to 100% sound horses are those under 5 years old with excellent conformation and good ground and feed, that haven't been ruined by humans yet.
They can't talk, so it's really hard to know if they are healthy are not. Some are so stoic they can have abscesses and walk fine, others wimp out with a stiff bristle brush.
I can tell you that if you put a Paso Fino next to a TWH you'd swear one or the other or both were lame, just by the way they move, totally naturally.
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karmikacres
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Re: Am I seeing things? I hope I'm mistaken... | Hosslass wrote: | | Has anyone else noticed this, or am I crazy? |
You are not the only one.
Mike
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PasoBaby_CarolU
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Since we're on this subject, I was thinking about the Jim Crew trims again, and thinking about what I would do with a horse with a movement fault.
I guess the first thing I'd do is check how it moves without me on it to see if I or my tack are the problem. For many horses, THIS is exactly the problem.
If it has the problem while on-line with no rider I'd look at the feet, but only to see if they are the cause of the problem (like tripping over long toes). I'd fix the feet IF (and only if) they are the problem. '
Then I'd look at strengthening, suppling, and conditioning to fix the problem...like PT.
If I still couldn't FIX the problem I'd accept that the horse has a physical problem that keeps it from performing as desired....and let that horse perform in other areas it does well at. I would not shim or pad, or make one foot uneven to "help a bad hock joint." If a horse has a bad hock joint - and I do - I'd limit that horse to things it could do. Baby is a 'kids horse' because of an old injury to the inside of her hock joint as a yearling. It has always affected her right hock and limited turning, gait, speed, etc.
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Hosslass
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Thanks everyone! And thanks Mike, glad to see someone else noticed. I know that most horses will have "off" days, or have some stiffness here and there. Most of the time I notice it's temporary for most horses. Often here with my herd, I'll notice one horse seems a little stiff moving, and then a day or two later, seems more relaxed. And, when pushed to clinical soundness by a vet, for academic sake, horses often have a lameness quirk (which is why pre purchase exams can be a double edge sword and make more questions than answers).
But with Pat's horses, I could understand one of the horses having an "off" day, but both of them probably ridden in the same week of filming on the same footing? And it looked like it was the front right in both horses. It's a little dissapointing, Lord knows I wouldn't be able to get away riding a lame horse like that in a audition video for an assessment.
I know that it's water under the bridge now, it just irks me though.... :smt064
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PasoBaby_CarolU
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I think as we learned with Linda's "Purity of Gait" video, that the horse's well being takes a 2nd chair to the filming schedule. No surprise there.
What IS surprising though is that THESE horses that SHOULD be shinning gold examples of how the Program produces excellent athletes. Would you buy a car that shimmied in its commercials? Would you send a team to the Olympics that was limping? Would you fly on plane with an engine leaking oil? Those are kind of extreme.
But in this case, would you hire a personal trainer who injured all his clients?
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karmikacres
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| PasoBaby_CarolU wrote: | | Would you fly on plane with an engine leaking oil? |
Depends on the engine. 
It's not leaking, it's just marking it's territory....
Mike
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PasoBaby_CarolU
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| karmikacres wrote: | | PasoBaby_CarolU wrote: | | Would you fly on plane with an engine leaking oil? |
Depends on the engine.
It's not leaking, it's just marking it's territory....
Mike |
What airline is it you fly for again???? :smt051
I'm flying next week. Want to make sure w're not marking territory.
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cheerios
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| PasoBaby_CarolU wrote: | I think as we learned with Linda's "Purity of Gait" video, that the horse's well being takes a 2nd chair to the filming schedule. No surprise there.
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This is what I don't like---the attitude that the show must go on, regardless of the horse's condition.
Are they assuming people won't notice it? I guess newbies or those inexperienced with horse might not, but they should realize that there are plenty of people watching their tapes who know a fair bit about gait, motion, soundness.
Also, if they are trying to establish a reputable program and a program that others/normals will respect (if not totally agree with) than riding lame horses ends up being looking pretty bad in my book. Makes me feel sad for the horses, that they've just become part of the money machine, like any other Big Name Trainer's horses.
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Blue Flame
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Yep, depends on the engine. They say that a Triumph motorcycle engine that isn't leaking oil has obviously not got any oil left in it.
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Autumn
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| Blue Flame wrote: | | Yep, depends on the engine. They say that a Triumph motorcycle engine that isn't leaking oil has obviously not got any oil left in it. |
I think this qualifies for certain years of Harleys as well!
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Clarissa
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Yes I noticed they were travelling just like Rermmer & Alure. Same stiff legs, same jabbing of the ground.
SAME, SAME, SAME !!! 
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Nashama
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Yup, I noticed. 
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