| Archive for It's About The Horse The Free Forum for those Doing Parelli - and a whole lot More! "Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful." Xenophon (430-355 B.C.), |
| Shannon |
Amount of Protein a Horse Should Have?Ok, I've been looking at a number of websites and there's such a variation of numbers when it comes to the amount of protein a horse requires in a day. So far I've seen from 1.4 - 2.2 lbs a day. Can anybody point me in the right direction, or tell me how you balance your horse's protein? |
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| Nashama |
You need to look at total dietary percentage, which id 4-6% for an adult and around 8% for a growing horse. Protein and iron needs are 2 of the great horse myths perpetrated by feed companies. | ||||
| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I agree. I've never heard it given as weight like that. A horse needs to eat 1-2% of their bodyweight of forage per day. So, a 1000 lb horse should get somewhere between 10-20 lbs per day. I would adjust that for the horse, most of mine get 1.5% a day.
A horse that isn't being used much doesn't need a lot of protein, about 6%. Horses being used 8-10% and horses in heavy training, pregnant or nursing 12-14% I wouldn't feed any higher then that and if the urine gets a strong ammonia odor, cut back on the protein. There is no way to guess how much protein is in your hay or pasture. You need to sample it to know for sure. |
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| Nashama |
I hadn't been with a horse getting too much protein until Nashama came home trashed. Poor Glen was gagging in the float cleaning it out. The horse stank of ammonia and a rotting meat sort of smell to his manure. Just awful when a healthy horse smells so sweet. He was also hyper - you could not touch him without him screaming in his skin, he was so sensitive. He was always skin sensitive so with too much protein he could not bear to be touched.
He was so sick, and I get annoyed with feed companies that mislead people on how much protein an adult horse actually needs and the great herbs myths. As a group, the JENTS practitioners are seeing a fair bit of over-proteined and over-herbed horses. All I can say on the feeding is KISS, and observe the level your horse needs the feed at and add a good mineral mix, don;t over-feed a product to get the right mineral dosage. Here, horses have less than a quarter of the recommended dose on the bags, plenty of hay, and a half dose of mineral mixes plus a few herbs (we are in drought, there is no pasture). They get nearly all they need from their oaten hay. |
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| Mandy'sMarty |
I was taught that an indicator of excessive protein in a horse is the prevalence of a lot of 'gunk' in the eyes, moisture in the nose first thing in the morning. From Regan Golob. | ||||
| karmikacres |
Probably from the ammonia irritating their eyes and mucus membranes. Might not be useful on horses out 24/7. Mike |
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| Leah |
It is not just protein that matters...it is quality of protein and the amino acid profile of the protein.
Grass hays are typically deficient in lysine-a limiting amino acid. That means without lysine, the horse can't use the other amino acids. Methionine is another bigger in the amino acid world. A horse can have a high protein diet and still be lysine deficient. |
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| Shannon |
Ok so how much lysine is required for a horse per day? Looking at my feed, it's a 32% crude protein but 2.2% lysine. I can't find anything online to tell me that this is adequate.
Why does feeding have to be so complicated? 
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| Mandy'sMarty |
When we asked Regan about this, he said it was actually the body pushing the extra protein out of its system. Since then, I've noticed this in horses pasture boarded 24/7. In warm weather. BTW, it also serves as an indicator of too much protein in our bodies. |
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| Nashama |
Discharge form the eyes is a liver stress indicator. | ||||
| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Shannon, if you go the Cushings group site (yahoo Cushings Group) in the file section you can download an Excel chart to use for balancing your horse's diet. It includes Lysine and Lysine is included in your hay or pasture analysis from DairyOne. It's also listed on most complete feeds labels. Feeding horses isn't any more complicated then feeding humans. Feeding them RIGHT is. I think 99% of the time you can get by feeding horses JUST decent pasture and/or hay with free choice salt and they'll do just fine. It's when you start to notice problems that you need to look farther in your feed and definitely BEFORE adding any supplements. I have rained on grass hay here and had it analyzed. I needed to add a lot to it for my regular horses, but Bien was also on Purina WellSolve and showed a balanced diet between the two. I've since bought alfalfa hay and mix 50:50 with my grass, for my other 7 horses. I'm discontinuing their supplements as I run out, except for my senior citizens who will continue to get additional vitamins and porbios daily. Just so that you all know, there are probios present in hay and pasture. Most horses receive all the colonization they need from their regular diet. If you feed complete feeds, then you need to check the labels and make sure they are included or add them. I think hays and grains loose a lot in the processing cycle. Just for the record, I TOTALLY agree with Jules. People will tell you ANYTHING to sell a product. Don't just blame Parelli's for this. Read the description of every supplement in your horse catalogs or on-line. They'll all cure the world and provide you a healthy and vibrant horse. And yes, they'll do all that IF your horse needs them. If your horse is already getting all he needs, then you are not only wasting money, you are overdosing your horse. The cost for hay/pasture analysis is CHEAP compared to what most 'loving' owners spend in supplements each month. And one analysis is usually all you need each year. |
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| Julie |
32% protein  thats loads!!
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
That really does depend on how MUCH of that she's feeding her horse. If it's all the horse is eating, that is GOBS, but if she's only feeding it as 10% of the horse's ration, that is 3.2% protein...on top of whatever the percentage is in the rest of the ration. If the horse is eating poor quality grass, it may only be 8% protein, which would combine then for a total of 11.2%. But if the horse is also on good hay or pasture, some have as high as 14% protein. That would put the horse's intake at 17.2% protein. I would only supplement with that high of a protein feed if I were feeding very LOW quality hay. |
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| Shannon |
Thanks for all of the replies guys. Looks like I need to explain a bit more.
We did have our hay analyzed and it came back at only 6% protein. Right now our horses get 8 lbs. of that per day separated into two feedings, but that will be changing once winter comes (we have round bales). So as of right now they get 0.48 lbs of protein from their hay. They are also on grass from about 8pm to 5:30 am, 3 out of 4 wear grazing muzzles. With my gelding BJ, we were advised to keep sugar levels low as he had evidence of lamina tearing which is why he is wearing the muzzle. He is currently being correctively shod by our farrier, who I do trust and I can see that BJ has improved. Our farrier and a nutritionist who are apart of the same team had been telling us for months that our horses needed more protein to grow their hooves faster in order to correct them faster. The nutritionist had advised us back in July to go to a 32% protein feed called Buckeye Gro'N Win. Before that BJ was on 2 lbs a day of Brooks All Phase 20 which was a 20% protein feed giving him 0.4 lbs of protein per day from the grain only. Currently he is on 3 lbs a day of the Buckeye 32% giving him 0.96 lbs of protein per day. So everything has seemed to be going well, all of the horses look pretty good, their feet are growing faster than they were. I went to my trainer's barn the other day to have a lesson on BJ and he commented on the smell of BJ's poop, and asked if he was on high protein. Since then, we have also been looking to supplement the horse's feed for the winter, to give them a little extra fat in their diets for the colder months. It was at this point when we started doing some math to calculate the right amounts of everything where we started to be confused. Our nutritionist has said that 2.2 lbs of protein a day is NRC standard, however when I looked online, 2007 NRC standard was 1.5 lbs of protein per day. We're trying to get in touch with her to find out exactly where she's getting that number from. I know that she feeds her horses 4lbs of protein a day however she's not recommending that for us. This nutritionist also told us that our horse's protein requirements were being met, based on the 2.2 number, however when we did the math 3 out of 4 horses were not even close to that number. The one horse who is on grass at night without the muzzle is at 2.2 or so. So I've gone online like I said to do the research and I know that lysine and methionine are the most important amino acids for the horse. However it's incredibly difficult to find how much should be in a horse's diet from a reputable source. I hope that I have cleared things up, and again thank you for your help. Hopefully I can get this sorted out! |
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| Julie |
Different country again Carol - even our racehorse mixes are low protein! | ||||
| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Shannon, 1.5 lbs per day for a 1000 lb horse equals 7.5% protein if you are feeding 20 lbs (2% body weight) per day. That is the maintenance level.
2.2 lbs equals 11% of 20 lbs of hay. That is not excessive. Why didn't they recommend a good biotin supplement instead? |
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| Nashama |
Hi Shannon, yes, I am curious about that, too? We have actually found the best hoof supplement is 1/3rd cup ground linseed, 2/3 cup ground French White Millet, and 2 tablespoons of rosehip shells added to the feed per day.
Carol, is the fact my horses have had no decent pasture for 11 years (due to drought) the reason they seem to need probios added? |
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| Shannon |
Wow that Equine Cushings group is a fabulous resource. The spreadsheet would be wonderful too except our hay analysis doesn't provide any trace minerals nor the lysine (I'm in Canada).
Carol, I think I am understanding your math there, though not entirely sure about which numbers mean what. In total our horses only get 0.48 lbs of protein from their hay, as it is poor quality this year. We know we do have to supplement with something else, and right now it's the grain at 32%. 3 lbs of feed at 32% protein is 0.96 lbs per day from grain. Grain + hay = 1.44 lbs per day of protein. In addition to that he's out on the grass at night so I'm sure he must get at least a little more protein in the grass out there. The nutritionist wants to add 17% protein alfalfa pellets for the colder months, say 1 lb at 17% = 0.17 bs. Add that again to the 1.44 and you get 1.61 lbs. Ok that math was mostly for me. Basically, you're saying 2.2 lbs is not high for protein and I shouldn't be too worried? Nashama - it's quite the process isn't it? From what I remember of what I've read, soybean was recommended over linseed for the "good" protein and I've never even heard of the other two things in your mix 
I'm really hoping to get in touch with the nutritionist soon, hopefully to have her explain it a bit more. Unfortunately, the woman can be very annoying to talk to. She tends to talk in circles
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Should note that linseed is also known as flax seed. I don't know that French White Millet exists in the U.S. (???). Jules, I would say "yes." Just like us, a major component of digestion is the correct fauna in the gut. These organisms are very common in the environment, but just like with yogurt and cheese, they need to be 'active culture' to be immediately available by the host animal. When you cut hay, you dry it prior to bailing or cubing. All that time the organisms are dying or going dormant. They also die and go dormant in the baking/drying process for most processed feeds. The longer this process takes from cutting to feeding, the less available organisms are available to the host. When you feed processed feeds exclusively, you have to have a healthy digestive system in the first place or add probios AND probiotics (probiotics are the specific nutrients needed for maintaining healthy organisms [probios] in the gut) in order for the host to utilize the feed. This is true for humans (all animals) too, and why, if your diet isn't rich in raw vegetables and fruit, you probably need to add probios in some form, for your digestive health. ** I might also add that I wouldn't trust my doctor or hospital dietitian to realize this and recolonize my gut after surgery, flu, throwing up, or periods of dehydration. Recolonize yourself...active culture yogurt. |
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| Mandy'sMarty |
Carol...I'm confused. Correct me if I'm wrong here or misinterpreting what you wrote. I thought Probios was a branded product that contained probiotic, the beneficial bacteria. And I thought a prebiotic ( e.g. Equipride, a branded product) supported the existing colonies of good bacteria--the probiotics-- in the gut in order for the host to utilize the feed. |
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| Nashama |
Yes, Linseed = flaxseed
French White millet is the white canary seed. Thanks on the probios, Carol. All I know is the horses thrive on a low dose and develop problems when they don't have them and it is drought related, which is why I feed the particular trace mineral supplement I do. It makes sense that supporting the gut the way we do is as necessary as it seems while we are constantly drought feeding. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Correct, and my mistake. I was trying to difrentiate the difference between probiotics and prebiotics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probiotics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prebiotic They are not the same and BOTH serve a purpose. There is a reason to feed one, or the other, or both. |
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| Mandy'sMarty |
Carol---Thanks for the post on Probiotics and Prebiotics. I suspect it's confusing for many of us working at getting up to speed on nutrition.
Interesting side note: while researching this in order to explain it to myself, I came across another thread on this in the American Paso Finos.com Forum...and found your post there. Above your post was another post that quoted an article referring to a French study of the effect of prebiotics in horses.
This apparently is one explanation for why my mare has not suffered a recent laminitic episode. Mandy had a brief episode almost 2 years ago. I caught it very early and she was released from stall rest after only a week. Soon after this episode, I consulted with Leah and then modified her diet to include Equipride--a prebiotic. Because of a string of accidents she suffered in her pasture, I was not been able to ride Mandy for over 2 months recently. Because of the unusual amount of rain we have had since spring, her pasture is incredibly rich---much too rich for her. We no longer have a suitable "Jenny Craig" pasture...and there is no reasonable dry lot available. My last experiment with a grazing muzzle on her lasted 3 hours. As a result of all this, she is probably at least 110 lbs. too heavy now---and heavier than she was when she had the laminitic episode. My only option is to burn calories. I'm able to ride her now and we're slowly getting her back into competitive condition. She's barefoot and a bit ouchy on pebbles and gravel...so I know she's pre-laminitic. Minimal flare and stretching of white line. After reading the above referenced article, I believe that feeding the prebiotic to Mandy has been one of the keys to keeping her from the tipping point that launches laminitis. My apologies for hijacking this thread---but I think it's an important comment. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Great discussion Marty....and I too, apologize to Shannon for hijacking her protein thread and turning it into a gut fauna thread. 
It is interesting that although her pasture is too rich in nutrients, and her activity level is too low, that she is able to handle it all with the influx of probiotics in her diet. From my own, personal, experience, I find we don't understand this relationship well in humans, let alone horses. And this is in horses with normal digestive systems and metabolic processes. The thing that brought me to this study is an IR mare. So imagine what it is like trying to balance what is 'normal' when no one really understands what normal is for horses. I know that colic is the number one killer of domestic horses. I'm not sure that it is the No. 1 cause in wild horses. It would be interesting to see a study, but I do think that wild horses...in a 'real' wild environment probably eat more marsh type grass and increase their probiotics when they need them. We just don't see this because we keep them in corals and decide for them, what nutrients we think they need. Remember that horse nutrition is a very new science with very little of it directed at 'normal' digestion in horses instead of increasing performance. When you have a horse with problems, it is that much harder, because no one really knows what 'normal' is. I see this as changing...but it has all been recent. We know 200% more today then we knew just 5 years ago. |
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| Nashama |
Never a truer word said. The journey since 2005 with Nashama and Rhydian for us has been phenomenal. Neither cope well with excess protein, both have metabolic issues that have driven me nuts. I am so often going with what WORKS as opposed to the supposed science of nutrition I often feel like I am spinning on the spot, feeding these two in a supposedly balanced manner does not give me the courtesy of just running in circles! The strange thing is I have gone back to the future. The things the old blokes taught me when I was a teenager are how I have ended up balancing these two horses. 
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Shannon, I can't say totally. I'm not sure what your horse weighs or what his activity level is. Guessing 1000 lbs, 11% is higher then maintenance, but not excessively high if you are using your horse a lot. In the winter you are better off feeding more high quality hay, then feeding a concentrate, since they eat the concentrate so fast and then it's gone. Hay takes longer to eat and the fiber is much better for them. |
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| Clarissa |
My ears pricked up when I read Leah & Carol's posts re lysine in the diet. I wondered if that might be why Sonny never seems to put on weight despite the feed he gets.
I looked at the ingredients of the MitaVite Breeda I feed them in the dry season. I give in when the season is really bad & use that one because it has the largest amount of the minerals most lacking here on the costal strip. It said lysine content was 8g per 1kg (2.25lbs) It says a horse like Sonny needs 2kg daily +hay etc. Well he only gets 1.3kg daily which is 1.5 measuring jugs. He does get .5kg soaked barely & some rhodes grass hay but no other greenery. Actually at this time of year with the lack of rain there is NO greenery! I wonder if 10g of lysine is enough. |
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| appellativo |
Ive enjoyed the turn of the conversation but I'm gonna ask a question regarding protein.
During the summer, we used the last of our good-looking but non-analyzed round bales. Going into winter, the batch of round bales we got were much darker, broader leafed and contained a lot of weeds. The horses look worse. I know you can't tell by looking much of the time what the nutrient and protein of the hay has, but sometimes, is it a no brainer? Is it possible for an ugly batch of hay to be adequate in the nutrient department? With the cold (we're in texas so for us, thirties is cold) wet season, even if the horses are left on the round bale all day is it likely that the lower quality of the bales this winter is contributing to the weight loss? They still get their pelleted ration (which has actually been increased) and some of the thinner horses are being stalled at night and given extra hay there. Cliff's notes answer is basically that I need to get the hay analyzed (our next load of hay is coming and it's supposedly/hopefully going to be better quality and have the analysis printout from the seller) and we're wondering if that will be enough, or if we need to feed more/different pellet ration with a higher protein content. Should we just see how they improve on the better hay, or also throw more pellet at them, or change to a higher protein percentage? I sure wish I could afford that Kellon course.... |
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| Shannon |
Haven't looked at this thread in a while but I thought I'd post an interesting observation. For the past number of years while I boarded my horse he always needed extra high fat and high fibre to keep weight on in the winter. Now that winter is here all of our horses are getting free choice hay, which he got in winters past, but this year he hasn't needed anything extra. The only thing I can attribute it to is higher percentage protein in the grain 
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| appellativo |
mine are getting about six lbs per day (recommended amount) of a 12% pellet. I wonder if I should feed more of that, or if I should move to a higher percentage feed...? | ||||
| Mandy'sMarty |
It's my understanding that the target range of 10%-12% crude protein of the total horse's diet is appropriate for the working horse. And 12% for the young, growing horse. I use 12% as the maximum target for my mare, and she is an endurance horse that works very hard during distance events. |