Angle of Bevel- Too much of a good thing...

Newfman · Angle of Bevel- Too much of a good thing...

I think it is easier to just start a new topic, than to bury this in another thread.

I think the the place to start is by understanding what the bevel, regardless of method, is supposed to achieve. In a healthy foot, it maintains a proper break-over point. It also allows the hoof wall to effectively roll over without imparting a shearing stress that can cause a separation at the wall:sole junction.

In an unhealthy hoof, it is a tool used to shorten an overly long toe or reduce a flare, both of which are effectively the same processes. This would be your average or typical long toed horse, not a 'slipper' foot or other over exagerated abnormalities. It is important to understand that the keys to shortening the toe are 1) Where you start the bevel. 2) Time. 3) Interval. I do not believe and it doesn't make sense that the shape of the mustang roll/bevel and how high up the hoof wall you want to carry it plays any significant role in the shortening of the toe.

It is also believed that a bevel; if done in a more conservative manor as we will discuss, enhances hoof wall growth by causing the surrounding ground to effectively 'wedge' against the bevel, creating an inward force. This is just opposite of the leveraging forces of a non-beveled and or an everly long wall growth and flare.

Lets look at the basic Bevel, performed by rasping at roughly a 30 degree angle from underneath the foot. That is, from the solar aspect.

This would be a typical "Ramey" style bevel and it is performed all the way around the hoof, not including the heels. In a good footed horse the angle is reduced in the quarters region. Also to finish this bevel, a light rasping is performed at the upper ridge, to enhance the looks and it makes it a little more durable. Round edges in nature are inherently stronger than straight edges. You won't find many square trees in the forest.

When the hoof is standing flat or at its COP, (center of pressure) ground surfaces such as dirt, sand or what have you, will compress against the bevel and impart a force that is inward and upward, into the direction of growth. Without a bevel, as you would find in a typical "pasture" trim, the hoof wall would be flat against the surface, and the ground would have a
leveraging moment that would be upward and outward. This starts the separation at the wall:sole junction.

Also note, how little actual hoof wall needs to be removed when performing this type of bevel. Full hoof wall thickness, hence strength and integrity is preserved over the greatest amount of area.

Now lets look at the Mega Roll.

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The first thing I would like to point out is that the relief provided for the toe to roll off of, far exceeds the angle that the horse can use. By the time the hoof rolls forward to between 20 and 30 degrees, it is entering flight phase. The mustang roll is dependant upon being "rolled on" to build its character, shape and strength. Even a Ramey bevel, becomes rounded and rolled by the horse. This actually is stronger than rolling the whole thing in with a rasp. Compressed material is stronger than thinned material.

As I have said before, a rock hard horses hoof is basically cold forged. It is virtually pounded like a hammer against steel, compressing and folding the horn tubules into a rock hard mass. The Ramey style bevel allows for beveled surface to ground contact. It, wears, rolls and pounds the leading edge of the hoof wall. It is part of the forging process as seen on the 'wild hoof model'. Because our domestic horses do not get the exposure to the elements and excercise that the wild horse gets, we add the bevel to help him along, with the understanding that it will never be as strong as a wild hoof, but it can get close.

With the mega roll you can see that the rolled hoof wall is too extreme to effectively play its part in the hoof un-rollment phase.

Secondly, as you can see by the diagram, you start thinning the hoof wall from as high as the top of the sole wall junction! What purpose does it serve, and who can actually look at that and honestly say that it is stronger because of it? Less is not more. It just isn't. I would even be willing to bet that by thinning that section of hoof wall, you actually increase the flexibility of the horn in that region, and create a weaker sole:wall connection. If Distal Decscent and flat soles are your issue, I don't see that this could be helpful. I don't think it will be the undoing of the foot, I just don't see a practical application, other than it may appear impressive. I have no issues with foregoing a bevel for a roll, but too much of a good thing isn't a good thing. It should be kept to a minimum, so as to maintain many of the good aspects of a basic bevel.

Here is the biggest issue I have with the Mega Roll.

I have seen the 'Mega Roll' become this time and time again. This is a byproduct of trimming from the top and trying to create a 'cool' roll. It takes what I have previously written to a whole new level of why not to do this. The arrow should help you see where there is so little hoof wall left over such a large area. This truly undermines the structural integrity as well as exposes the hoof to injury by presenting a flat thin surface to every rock, ice chunk, or root that comes along.

I feel that this is the result of people trying to perform an exagerated roll without truly having a solid image in their minds eye with what is going on inside the hoof. A combination of that, and a lack of hand-eye coordination which ends up being a flat bumper instead of a rounded "roll". they basically take the Roll out of Mega Roll. It becomes a Mega no no. Trimming from the top in my opinion, was created for people that are looking for the "easy road".

I hope that some may find this helpful, or at the very least, interesting.

Pyrgirl

I found it both helpful and interesting. I was just beginning to try extending the roll higher on the hoof wall and now I know why I haven't been doing it much. Just didn't seem to work for us.

Newfman

Well Pat, I think there is a big difference between a 'barefoot trimmer' and a 'natural hoof trimmer'. I'm not saying one is better, just that there is a difference.

A natural hoof trimmer tries to stay as close to the wild hoof model as possible and a barefoot trimmer I think uses a bit more latitude and interpretation.

I consider 'natural balance trimmers' to actually be in the latter category. I also think that a huge percentage of farriers fit in the latter as well. If a horse owner walked down to the barn right after a farrier did a 'natural hoof trim' and said, he changed his mind and wants shoes. The farrier would have to say, fine, no problem, I'll see you in a few weeks. Most farrier barefoot trims that I have seen personally, could get a shoe that day.

So, when i see different trim styles, i start to analyze what I see and relate it to the natural, wild hoof model. From there I can usually animate the action in my head and decide what kind of outcome it has the potential for.

I think you did the same thing.

Mandy'sMarty

Very interesting narrative and visual presentation. This is the precise concept and straightforward explanation that I have been trying to decipher from other sources. The 'Mega Roll" as you have described sounds a bit like a big bumper of questionable structural integrity. As always, so much depends on what the terrain is all about.

I just recently started slight 'maintenance' rolling with my rasp between scheduled visits from my Ramey trained trimmer. I wondered about the consequences of doing my touch-up trims from the top down. Now I see why my gut was telling me to be very, very careful.

It will be interesting to read the forthcoming comments from others.

Pyrgirl

I do want to add that I trim from the top first and then do the bottom.
This works best for us for multiple reasons including the fact that it seems to relax my horses. They really like stretching forward more than back.

Trimming from the top first doesn't mean doing the mega roll necessarily. At least not the way I understand it. We do more of a bevel and then do the bottom. Only after that do I consider any additional rolling and mostly we haven't been needing it. The advantage of doing the bottom first would be that you can probably gauge your bevel in relation to the white line more accurately. I'll have to consider this.

Leah

I have been asked to remove my posts.

I have no idea which ones-so will delete them all

learningthedance

Leah

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Leah · Re: Angle of Bevel- Too much of a good thing...

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Clarissa

OK I may be guilty of removing too much wall too high up

I'll continue this train of thought in my thread on sonny's feet as I have a photo from last night to put up.

creekwood

This is my little mare Ziya, after a 30 miler in the high dessert in OR. We went over lots of volcanic purple rock, sand, and round rocks. She topped 10 & got 2nd highest vet score. I give her a "mega-roll" from the top. She has a huge stride & can trot 15 mph (past cantering horses).
I have more pictures, just need to find them.

Leah

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Leah

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Leah

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creekwood

I can take some solar shots tomorrow... she's a little long.

This is her right front after that ride. Not the best angles sorry. But you can see she was starting to self trim at the quarters & toe.

ETA- I do have to brag about another mare from our barn owned by the same lady who adopted Teddy. She placed one spot ahead of me (in Limited Distance, whoever pulses down fastest gets the place), and got high vet score. Her mare has one "clubby" foot, and one pancake foot. Her pancake hoof was literally slighty convex. I'd been using the mega-roll on her since Feb. She still needs to be booted in the fronts for rocky rides, and probably always will, but her upright foot has gone up a size (a .5, I think) & the pancake hoof has gone down to a 0. I wish I'd taken before pics of her feet! Really incredible what she's been able to do. She used to move like a pony, now she has a lot more suspension. She's still extremely one-sided, but her mom is working on that.

Blue Flame

Very interesting thread and one which puts words to something I have been thinking about for quite awhile.

Our horse lives and works on grass and very occasionally on a very abrasive sand. He gets the occasional walk down the blacktop. When we take him on trails it is more likely to be bush and farmland - not rocks - so the most severe forging he will ever experience at the toe will be if he kicks a tree root or clips a trot pole.

However, I've found that when I use a bevel rather than a roll, I don't get toe cracks.

Here's an aspect that might add to the discussion (sorry, don't have pics to help explain). It's not a hypothetical - it is the front feet I'm dealing with each day.

Let's say that a hoof has flared forward at the toe for whatever reason. Looking from the bottom, the sole still concaves nicely all the way out to the whiteline and there is no evidence of a lamellar wedge as the callous ridge appears to be right next to the whiteline where is should be. There is no whiteline seperation evident - yet the toe wall is still undeniably flared forward.

SO, the conclusion is that the callous ridge itself has grown taller and leaned forward with the flared wall, while filling the intrices of the epidermal lamina (as it should) to form the whiteline.

If I were to then thin the toe wall in an effort to back them up, what then is left to stop the sole callous ridge (remembering it is concave all the way to the whiteline) from flaring forwards - resulting not only in toe cracks in the wall, but also in the flared callous ridge?

Taking this a bit further - again, not hypothetical because I have seen this happen and expect it to happen again and again as each new cycle of less flared toe wall grows down - lets say that growing down behind the flared toe wall as above is some less flared toe wall. As it grows past the end of the epidermal lamina and into the region of the sole, it will find itself in a position on top of the taller, more forward stretched callous ridge that was attached to the older, more flared toe wall. As it continues to grow down, this less flared toe wall wil bend the flared callous ridge downward ahead of it. What will be seen from the bottom is a natural flow of concavity in the sole from sole/frog junction to callous ridge, and then it will suddenly turn more perpendicular to the ground.

In this second scenario, we have both wall and callous ridge too long. If we thinned the wall now, again the callous ridge would flare outwards without the structure to hold it in place. In this case, the only answer I can come up with is to first remove the excess callous ridge BEFORE bevelling or rolling the wall.

I guess what I'm describing is a situation where successive growth of better connected wall has the upside of bringing the toes back (A-P wise) - but if no lamellar wedge was created - it could lead to either toe cracks extending into the callus ridge (if the wall is overly thinned) or else a high (vertically) or long (dorsally) toe and a negative P3/ground plane angle.

Now here is where I think many people (including me) get into trouble . . . . and I think it might just throw the cat amongst the pidgeons . . .

I think many people are trying to get the toe back to try to get the 1/3rd to 2/3rds ratio of frog apex to toe against frog length. IOW, they think the toe is too long or too forward because it is more than 1/2 the length of the frog from the frog apex to the toe.

So what you say? That's how it should be?

Well, yes and no . . .

In a fully developed hoof - that is one where the soft tissues of the back of the foot are fully developed - yes, we could reasonably expect to have 1/2 the length of the frog in front of the frog.

BUT, and this is a big but, a very large portion of the feet out there are NOT fully developed at the back (digital cushions, lateral cartiledges). What people seem to overlook is that a hoof that is underdeveloped at the back is SMALLER at the back.

Refer to the Auburn University Colledge of Veterinary Medicine PPT presentation about the development of a method for 3D computer modelling the soft tissues of the foot using MRI. You can download the presentation here: http://www.hoofrehab.com/PalmarFootStudy8-21-09.pps

In the 3 feet used for this presentation they showed that, depending on the development of the back of the foot, the combined volume of the digital cushion and lateral cartiledge (in 3 feet compared) varied from 94.5% up to 159% of distal phalanx volume (see slide 27). It also showed a change in the length behind the coffin bone, of a single foot over a 4 month period from 38mm to 45mm (see slide 3).

So the upshot is - if a foot looks too long in front when looking at it from underneath, it might actually be too short at the back. How many people might there be chasing the elusive 1/3rd:2/3rd A-P balance, trying to get the toes back when ther is nothing wrong with where the toe is and they should be looking at developing the other end of the foot instead? . . . . I know of at least 1 who was . . . . .

Leah

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Newfman

Wow, I haven't even been gone for 24 hours, and it is going to take longer than that to address these responses.

****When I was about eleven years old, I lived on an Air Force Base on a little island in the Pacific. I had a variety of interests from, hanging out at the horse stables to, exploring the Jungles and collecting un-exploded ordnance (

yeah, don't ask

) and most of all; taking things apart, figuring out how they work, and putting them back together...usually.

It was my turn to mow the lawn, but I absolutely despised 'mindless' labor. I went to start the lawn mower and about the time I pulled the cord for the third time and it hadn't started, it hit me. . ."Just how the sam-hill does the cord go back in freely, yet lock up to the crank shaft when I pull it back out. (I had already discovered what a crank shaft was by this time. (Again

) So, I did what I usually did, and carefully removed the engine shroud. I knew that there was tension involved so I would have to only take it to the point that I could 'get a visual' and then put it back together.

I slid the upper engine housing off after removing the throttle cable and various bolts and looked at the underside. Three metal tabs with plastic bushings held the coil wheel in place that had the pull cord wrapped around it. "So," I thought, " the mechanism is just on the other side of this wheel. I carefully bent the tabs back and gently started to remove the coil wheel. Suddenly, PHWING!!!! The coil wheel slipped from my fingers and 15' of spring steel ribbon, 4 feet of cord and a coil wheel went flying by my head! "Crap!" I sat there shaking my head. dad will be home in two hours for lunch. What am I going to say? Uh, the lawn mower wouldn't start. . .again?!?!

Back to the present. . .

So, looking at the responses here, I am hearing this girls voice in my head singing. . ."Oops, I did it again...." The thread kind of exploded. I will try to catch up.

For some reason, after checking all the settings in my personal controls on this website, I am not receiving notification of responses to threads that I am watching. So, if I seem to not be responding, I am either working, or not being notified and will check back when I have time.

Not sure how to get to everyone, so if I miss you, please ask again. Remember, these are my reasonings, not the word of God. There are exceptions to everything, but this is where I am at in the process of finding answers and understanding.

That being said, I think I will start at the back and move towards the front, since there is an overlap in progression. I have no idea what that actually means

kristie

kristie

Newfman

Blue Flame

I hope you didn't write all of that in one breath!

You have some interesting stuff there. Some of the things you say though make me wonder if some of the issue isn't a little self perpetuating.

In general I think you will find that if a wall is flared, there is separation of the PEL and SEL (Primary and Secondary Lamina). The white line is laminae that has been keratinized as it travels between the Sole/wall junction. If you have a flare, you likely have separation of the laminae, and part will be your white line, which can 'appear' reasonably tight (provided the flare is not too extensive) and the other part of the laminae fills in the space between the flared hoof wall and the attached laminae. This is actually a granular looking poorly keratinized laminae and makes up the lamellar wedge, though it may be minimal in your case.

A hoof with good soles and good concavity should have a callous ridge that is just a small, sometimes hard to identify ridge line at the point where the lole meets the white line. A 'wave' of callous ridge capable of flowing forward over the whithe line is not symptomatic of a healthy hoof.

Leah

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Newfman

Creekwood,

I am totally not getting where you think that that is a mega roll. It looks like a basic, conservative mustang rol to me.

TTFT (trimming from the top) is not the boogy man, but lack of skill and understanding of how to do it and artistic flare is.

How are you comparing:

To This:

I am hoping after the hours that I spent writing, that you can tell the difference by now. If not, let me know and I will try to figure out another way to explain it.

Nice hoof by the way.

Leah

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Newfman

Newfman

Leah

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learningthedance

Is there any way we can lose the drama??

This is a very informative thread, with great visuals, and some very good questions being raised here. Also, some issues being addressed, that might have otherwise been ignored.

It's threads like this one that so many of us can actually bennefit from. I just hate to see it take a nose dive, when there really is no reason for it.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Leah

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fairhavenranch

You know, earlier in the day I was feeling kind of down because I would like to comment on this topic but I did not feed well educated enough to join the discussion.

Now I'm kind of thinking ignorance may be bliss.

learningthedance

whudson

I too have really enjoyed reading this thread and have learned a lot from it. Would love for the discussion to keep going

Blue Flame

Leah

To those that find my posts distasteful, early Merry Christmas.

You win.

Newfman-I say this with all sincerity.

Best of luck-it can be very challenging helping people online. Words get misunderstood, methods get misapplied.

I have enjoyed helping every single person that wanted my assistance.

It seems you have now won the hearts of those on this forum-my suggestions have been called into question.

I never said there was one way to Rome-lots of tools make a better carpenter.

Best to all.

oldmac_donald

Woah! I go to work and the proverbial hits the circulatory!!

Leah, come back!

Newfman

I don't know why you have made this about you. You didn't invent the Mega-Roll, you coined the phrase as far as i can tell, and it is remarkably well named. People have been "mega rolling" since the beginning of the barefoot movement. My points have been about cause and effect. Not 'cause of Leah. This was a continuation from my last post on Sonnys feet. Since I have been Pm'd by a few people here in the past and i had offered my opinions on their "rolls" I figured it would be easy to just create a thread with varying opinions, points and counterpoints on the subject, instead of writing the same thing over and over and over again.

Never intended to hurt your feelings. It wasn't the intent. It does make me realize that i should spend a heck of a lot less time on it though!

You and everyone here can Mega Roll untill they are blue in the face. You can have Mega-Roll competitions. I was just offering diagrams so that people can put in their head what is going on, especially if done incorrectly. I wasn't even intentionally picking on Clarissa. As I have said and told her in the past, she is doing great, but needs to start refineing. That toe thing, is more than just a blemish. It is something she (as well as several others here) need to address in their craftsmanship. I applaud her effort, be she has come way too far to not start increasing her rolling skill. An understanding of the "why" of it seemed like the best approach.

There is no mystery to trimming. It is really simple and really basic for the average horse. Rehab is a little more involved, BUT it isn't really anything different. It is more about what to do 'when'. That requires much more understanding of the pathology and the effects of the trim. For the most part, you don't even need to be litterate to trim a hoof. A little guidance to learn to recognize the landmarks and the different ways they present, and you can go to town. It is more craftsmanship, shaping and tool handling than anything else, and they, for the most part get done pretty much the same way. Which ever way it is that you choose to follow. So, this isn't about how to do it, as much as it is about the effects of what gets done. It ain't rocket science. And just because we throw ideas around and talk about more of the 'science' of hoof care, there isn't a single person here that has a strong enough back and can walk and chew gum at the same time that can't easily learn to trim their own horses feet.

Horse feet are amazingly simple and incredibly intricate. Trimming is easy, understanding will take the rest of your life.

I can assure you I have given a little of my time and support to members here. They are perfectly welcome to pass on my advice. I don't take it personally.

Yet one more thread, gone straight to the crapper. Carol, feel free to delete the whole friggin mess.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Just for the record, I asked Leah to please edit her posts and remove the sarcasm. Nothing about deleting them, and nothing about leaving the forum.

Those are her decisions and hers alone.

I'd really like to see this discussion continue and wish to thank ALL the participants in it.

IMO we are pretty open here about discussing the pros/cons of clinicians, teachers, methods, tack, farriers, medicine, supplements...you name. Look at the threads on Jim Crew and his methods. There is no reason another method of hoof trimming should be sacrosanct. Anything can be taken to extremes and nothing in that statement says that anyone here is doing that. Just that 'caution' should be an operational word.

So, please continue this discussion, those that can or care to. It looks to me like there is more to learn.

Blue Flame

I'll have to take this piece by piece to make sure I understand what you are saying.

Clarissa

Well this isn’t the outcome I was hoping for when I entertained Newfman’s suggestions to lay off the mega roll!

I’ve done it again……caused a ruckus without even trying. I just want Sonny to have better feet.

Eagerly, I went straight to this topic today to read the several replies that had come in while I was asleep & in town this morning, expecting to find all this wonderfull info. And indeed there was plenty of said good info. Never for a moment expecting to find MY photo being used to represent a BAD method of hoof trimming. I’ve got a pretty thick hide & it’s just as well, as I have to eat humble pie. I was really proud of that work in that photo. toothy9

Thanks to Leah’s help I had achieved nicely thick walls particularly on Sonny’s front feet where before there were thin weak walls. At least there is something to rasp into now!

But I’m a big girl. I can take criticism, with a grain of salt if needs be. Still it was a shock.

I was of the opinion I was doing the right thing by unloading his walls, that the soles were to take the weight of the horse. Well I’m even more confused than ever now.

Since Sonny has ruined one of his boots today, I can’t do the sole thickening test now so I think I’ll just try to get by as best I can for a while. No way to be able to afford a new boot so I can’t even ride or exercise him anymore just when he was starting to come good. It’s all turned out quite badly really. crybaby

Leah

So I can set the record straight...

whudson

Hmmm...Not sure why all this happened

Why is it that there has to be drama or personality conflicts, whatever. There are a lot of us here who are here to learn. I for one would like to continue to do that taking the info presented by several different ways/people/professionals and taking what I need from it. Kind of like not putting all your eggs in the one basket.

I do believe there has been "like" discussions with re to Parelli and opening up your mind so that one way is not the only way.

Personally, I don't feel in reading all the posts that any of the comments were meant as an attack on any other person. I feel badly that comments have been taken that way.

I also feel that Newfman was just expressing a concern with re to overdoing the "Mega Roll" or at least that is what I have taken from it. And he also explained why he feels that way, which I can see and understand clearly what he is talking about. Maybe too much of a good thing? Am I wrong in thinking this way? I don't feel in reading this thread that he meant to crap all over anybody else....it's called a discussion. That is how we learn.

I had a professional "hoof practioner" visit my horse a few months ago and the results to my horses hooves have been wonderful. For the first time in two years, I feel we are making progress. She taught to trim from the bottom first...the same way that Newfman has presented then finish the hoof from the top, completing the "roll", and as a result the hoof is really changing in a very positive way.

Newfman, I too would love to see some hoof pics.

Newfman

Blue Flame,

Yes, and thank you for correcting me on the Laminae issue. In trying to over simplify I think I made it more incorrect than helpful.

You certainly make some interesting points. I have seen reasonable concavity terminate to an unusually wide callous ridge, and I thought that you were describing a similar situation. Guess not. What I was seeing I believe had more to do with a lack of sole thickness and the tip of P3 resting a little too close to the ground.

Newfman

One last thing I would like to nip in the bud.

I have never said that I trim for a large number of clients. If you search back to the beginning of my postings, you will find that Leah challenged my experience way back then as well and I was very straight forward. I have my own horses that I trim (and experiment) on, and i have a small handfull of clients horses, plus a little tough guy pony, that I maintain. I have a relatively new OTSB neglected rescue that i am working with and an ex (supposed Champion) Reiner that was found starving in a barn that I am rehabing as well.

I have also provided internet consultations. I think I have been reasonably helpful and have been stunned by the skill of the people I have tried to help. One in particular has just blown me away. You know who you are.

I had, infact, still have a professional trimmer mentor, and we are in constant communication and spend way too much time talking about feet. She also works for a big corporation (a brown corporation, but I won't mention any names) with great health insurance and retirement, and is getting ready to give it up to trim full time. She is no slouch when it comes to natural hoof care, and sure as heck would not support me in my endeavors if I didn't have the skill and knowledge to proceed as a professional. Interestingly enough, every time she tells me about a new interesting case, i ask for pictures.....she didn't take any. In fact, I find the only trimmers and farriers that tend to take pictures, are those that have a need to post them on the net.

My significant other has been encouraging me to set up a website. So, when i get around to it, I will by my own digital camera and take pictures of everything. Right now I have been borrowing hers and have only bothered with our herd, and the two rescues. The rescues because I am considering using them for Case studies towards AHA certification. AHA certification so i don't have to do this everytime I post my thoughts that contradict someone elses. Other than that, being as I am somewhat lightly employed, I spend hours of every day of the week researching, studying, writing, and occasionally sharing. Along with that, my significant other is a graduate of the University of Florida, College of Veterinary Medicine, and has been practicing for 20 some years. She would not let me get away with any bull sh$&. Especially with our own horses!

Taking pictures...I do own cameras though. I spent 2 years at Santa Monica College in Commercial Photography. My cameras shoot film, and I scan the negatives (or positives) in a Nikon Film scanner for the small format stuff, Large format (4x5) gets drum scanned at a digital film lab when needed. No, I will not shoot a roll of film, pay for processing, and then spend hours scanning it in to my computer. I also hate taking "snap shots" Just not my thing. So if I don't NEED it I don't bother. I am also laid off for ABF Freight, and my Timber Framing work dried up in November of 2007. I am not going to run out and by a camera or pay for a professional web site right now.

If you can't challenge the information...challenge the writer! What ever. Please note my signature at the bottom of every one of my posts.

Sincerely,

The arm chair internet trimmer.

edited for childishness. . .some of it anyways.

Newfman

Since Im on a roll here...

Clarissa, I apologize again. I should have found a more obscure photo of what i was talking about. You did not deserve to be singled out. It happend,thoughtlessly, because this thread was brought forward from my last post on your thread.

As far as "over the top silly" diagrams, you are welcome to print out a hoof diagram an draw your own roll and decide your own cause and effect scenario. Keep in mind, some horses have thick walls, and some have thin. Trace the diagram and modify it with a thin wall and redraw a variety of rolls. Make up your own minds.

If you look back through some of the photos of various hooves here and on other websites, you may find that it isn't alwasy that much of an exageration.

So, anyone else I have pissed off recently?

Lets get it out now!

littlechestnuthorse

Due to work and life in general, I haven't been on IATH as much as I'd like, but the farrier/hoofcare forum is where I gravitate. I'm currently trimming my own horse and a friend's, after apprenticing with Cliff Mortimer, a student of Jaime Jackson and Pete Ramey, and one of the folks who started the AANHCP (he's since left that org.).

I love the discussions here, for both the technical aspects, but also for a better understanding as to the 'why'. My mantra in all things I'm trying to excel at (thanks to Brent Graef) is "do the best with what you know, then go learn some more".

Its a fine line to walk, following a path you believe strongly in and yet also being open minded to new/refining ideas. The real danger comes when you invest yourself personally too much in an idea, and lose the ability to critically think about it. We've all seen where that has taken many of the Parelli "cultists"! Having come late to this discussion and much of the "drama" has been deleted, I'm of no firm opinion on that. From what I can read, the points brought up were NOT PERSONAL and well discussed and thought out. I learned immensely from them and they help me understand some of what I had learned from my mentors in a different way, so that I can apply it better.

I don't think there is one way to do anything. I don't P4 an introverted horse, though I may need to do something extreme to get the respect of a dominant extrovert. I see hoof trimming in the same way. These discussions of the anatomy and physics in the hoof are like understanding horse psychology. If I better understand the situation, I can better apply my skills and techniques to it.

Leah, I have great respect for your knowledge and ability to share it. Most of the time I agree with what you have to say, all the way back to the SC forums, in the pre-IATH days. I would like for you to continue contributing to this community, but I am not going to ask you to stay. Primarily because "running off" is a habit you have developed, that I am not going to encourage. And I say that only because I care.

I want to thank *everyone* who posts here for their contributions. "Newbs" ask the questions rolling around in my head, and the "experts" help answer them.

Regards
Suzanne

toreolau

Princess Leah?
Wow, I wonder why she would think this was personal

littlechestnuthorse

Newfman

True, and childish. I will edit it.

Newfman

fairhavenranch

Want to watch me stick my foot in my mouth, big time?! Sorry, just can't help it but I am seeing an opening and taking it.

I have "X" number of degrees, "X" number of farrier certifications and "X" number of years of experience in the field.

The value of "X" is completely irrelevant if the following conditions exist:

1. My opinion is different than someone elses.

2. There is competition instead of mutual respect.

3. One or more persons feel the need to be the "preferred" person
to be giving advice, information, or instruction. (See #2.)

4. I am holding my tongue in the incorrect position.

Thank you in advance for allowing me to express my opinion with out criticism or fear of retribution (i.e.:snarkey comments, flaming me, belittling me, etc.)

Yet another reminder why I never feel comfortable enough to join in these discussions.

whudson

Newfman, I only suggested pics not to challenge or anything else, I just love looking at nice feet pics and I expect that you have some nice feet.

I'm really enjoying reading your posts and everybody else who is contributing and am grateful that you are so freely sharing it with those on this forum eager to pick your brain.

Blue Flame

Leah

Here is a photo from the DVD Called Trimming From the Top. The photo is owned by Sole Sister Productions and can be purchased here:

http://solesisterproductions.com/index.php

It is only$30 plus shipping and will ship internationally.

As you can see, using a top roll to bring back a long toe is NOT dangerous when done correctly-it does not come NEAR sensitive tissue.

I thought to carry on a conversation on this topic, a cadaver foot would be more useful than a cartoon drawing.

Particularly when the drawing was wrong and leading readers astray.

If you want more information on the trim, give the video a try.

And with that I will say, Goodnight John Boy.

Leah

I would also like to REMIND those trimming you NEVER use a top roll with a bevel on the bottom-that will sore a horse in a moment's notice.

Best of luck to everyone.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Kim Cassidy

Toe Callus:

A ridge should not be visible at all on the sole, if you see one you have thin soles and a big problem.

When talking of a desired callus, what are you looking for? Is it something the horse is born with? Is it actual cells that are different than sole material?

Please cite any and all sources when you answer this question.

The Mega Roll as Leah has coined (good word btw, I'm sick of the darn mustang roll nonsense) is a great way to trim a foot and if you KNOW what you are doing, understand anatomy then you won't have a problem.

There is so much misinformation in the hoofcare world and the barefoot only crowd is no better than the some hammer heads

Trimming is not easy when you, as an owner, DIYer has to wade thru all of the conflicting information. Not to mention the outright false claims, exaggerations and lies, to promote the barefoot agenda.

Mega rolling and deflaring a foot are NOT the same thing (if you know what you are doing). Some horses, chronic lamintics, need their lamellar wedge and removing it causes lameness and keeps the horse in pain. There is too much for me to ramble on. I'll answer specific questions. But some here are giving out information as if they are experts and it is disingenuous and harmful to horses.

Learn the science and trim 100's of horses before you act an expert. Of course this is the internet, so Caveat Emperor!

I've attached a pix of a horse with a toe ridge. DIYer was so proud to show me the toe callus that was developing on her horse. AACK! I shod the horse for a few months, developed sole depth and now he is barefoot, thick soled and happy.

Leah

PasoBaby_CarolU

PasoBaby_CarolU

Thank you Leah....good points. I only have to comment on one part of your post.

Leah

Carol I would like to thank you for your positive response to my post without a belittling or maternal tone.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Kim Cassidy

Carol:

I've been playing on forums for upwards of 7 years now, I understand how it gets out of control, quickly. I was capable of turning a thread into a trainwreck not too long ago.

I, as I'm sure we all are, very passionate about horses, and especially hoofcare.

I'm appalled at what people are advised to do to help their horses get better. I'm appalled at what people read and then interpret on the internet to help their horses get better.

I know what it is like to be alone, struggling to do the right thing for your horse, with no competent help to hand. Despite having CJF's, long time farriers frequenting the barn I boarded at.

So I do feel for everyone, but I'm trying to help as I can't stand to see the trims that people are doing based on reading Pete's book or his DVD. Pete is not the end all be all of hoofcare, nor is Jamie Jackson or Bowker. There I've got all the buzzwords out of the way

Putting a bevel on a laminitic is feel as you go type of trim. I would never allow anyone under my tutelage to remove all the hoofwall from a laminitic in an attempt to grow in a new tighter connection. Unless you are putting a Clog on the foot or doing something to keep the bony column aligned correctly.

I trim laminitics different every time, but I also have boots, casts, pads, shoes to help me when needed. It is so hard to explain when typing, especially because I need to get my butt out the door to work.

I will try to help if I can. Did you look at the picture that I posted, has anyone? Is that what you all are calling a healthy Callus? (callus, not callous :D)

learningthedance

Newfman

PasoBaby_CarolU

I do think IF we are to keep a Farrier Forum, it would be wise to keep comments positive, on what people SHOULD do, rather then tearing another trimmers/farriers advice apart and then leaving the person with no alternate direction. It turns into a battle of egos, rather then a learning environment. Once it is no longer a learning environment, it will cease to exist.

She may have been referring to my comment about the 45-degree bevel on my laminitic IR mare. I did use pads at first, with little improvement. I changed to casts, per KC LaPeirre, and have had good improvement in her pain level to the point she could be exercised.

Now.........can we ALL keep it constructive???

Newfman

ElaineC

Kim Cassidy

Autumn

Angle of Bevel- Too much of a good thing...

Re: Angle of Bevel- Too much of a good thing...