| Archive for It's About The Horse The Free Forum for those Doing Parelli - and a whole lot More! "Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful." Xenophon (430-355 B.C.), |
| karmikacres |
Anyone have experience with Pemphigus Foliaceus?One of our geldings was just diagnosed with an autoimmune disease called Pemphigus Foliaceus. From what I am reading prognosis isn't good long term and only treatment I can find is steroids.Hoping there are better options out there. Thanks! Karen |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I had never heard of it before. I just read up on it in the Mereck Manual. So sorry for your horse. It doesn't sound good. | ||
| Thunder Hollow |
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| Clarissa |
I just googled the name & got pages of alternative & herbal remedies for people mostly. So I imagine there are a similar number for animals. Anyway from reading about cures for humans it gives you an idea of what sorts of herbs might work for animals.
I know quarter horse stallions have to be blood typed for it now as it is previlant in one particular bloodline. Sonny has a version of it a little (obviously from his unreg 1XQH dam) & I have to make sure there are no grains of grit in his coat under the saddle. I usually hose him before riding. If there is grit it will irritate the skin & a fluid lump will come up which takes months to go away & I have to make sure I don't put any pressure on that spot until it disolves. In bad cases the lumps join together & the dermis layers seperate & the fluid never resolves. Here is just one link I found :- http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1064019-overview |
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| learningthedance |
Not sure if this is of any help, but I found this too.
http://www.antibioticfailure.com/.../allspecies/autoimm/lady/test.htm I have never heard of it, but maybe looking into something non traditional could help?? So sorry your going through this. |
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| karmikacres |
Thanks for the articles - I have been doing a lot of research. I am interested in the drug induced Pemphigus Foliaceus because I think that is what set off this major reaction we've been dealing with. I was told to worm him 3 times with Ivermectin and after the 3rd worming he had this skin eruption.
I just gave him his first dose of Dex. We are starting with a lower dose to see what results we can get without putting his feet in terrible jeopardy. I have our traditional vet and 3 holeistic vets working on options. I am going to start him on Microlactin (as soon as it arrives). Dr. Kellon said I am the second person in one week to contact her about this problem - very interesting because it isn't supposed to be very common in horses. We'll let you know if things are looking up for him. Please keep Hollywood in your prayers. Karen |
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| Thunder Hollow |
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| marsha lee |
Karen and Mike,
You're Dynamite users aren't you? Pemphigus in horses is nearly always ivermectin caused. It's a liver/toxin issue, as is any skin disorder. Anyway, Dynamite has a protocol for treating this that you might want to check out. Best of luck, sending healthy horse images your way. |
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| karmikacres |
Not Dynamite users. We have all our minerals balanced to each load of hay we have. We're working with Dr. Kellon for additional nutritional support on this.
The Selenium deficiency is interesting. We have not had that checked. We've been supplementing a small amount in our mineral mix. 1mg of Selenium Yeast which is most bioavailable. Might be something to check into. Karen |
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| ElaineC |
*Jingles* to Hollywood, and you guys too Karen and Mike. Hope you can find a solution, or even better something to get rid of it completely. Sounds like you've got the best working on it. | ||
| marsha lee |
Ann,
How did you know Doc had a selenium deficiency? |
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| Clarissa |
That's a very interesting thought Karen. Ivermectin is still the best wormer here on the coastal Aussie strip & I just wormed mine yesterday. I will watch to see if Sonny is more prone to lumps under the saddle during the next few weeks. They come & go. I have on occasion done the 3 wormings in a row thing with IM. But couldn't pinpoint those times as being when he got a lump. It's a few yrs since I did that last. There is a new type of wormer available here now but it is horrendeously expensive & doesn't come in a dosing gun application yet. I guess the chemical company still wants it's pound of flesh as payment so the wormer is put out in small tubes only, not bulk liquid. 
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| Thunder Hollow |
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| whisperingwindfarms |
Pemphigus is actually caused by overdosing Ivermectin. Clean up the liver by doing a detox with good products and treat the skin with a good salve. Most (if not all) skin disorders are caused by the liver not being able to process the toxins in the body so the toxins are forced out through the skin. I have some Dynamite products that can help if you're interested. One of my customers had a mare with pemphigus and we cleared it up in about 3 weeks. Erin |
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| Thunder Hollow |
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| karmikacres |
Yes, I am obviously also very curious on your data and research on this. I cannot find any connection so far to Ivermectin causing this condition. Believe me, I would love to make that connection - I'd love for Farnam to pick up our vet bills. Would love to have access to the mare's health records to see if there are any other similarities, how and with what she was treated. I have set up an EquinePemphigusFoliaceus Yahoo group to set up case studies on horses with this disease. We would love to have this mare added to the case studies. Thanks! Karen |
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| Thunder Hollow |
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| whisperingwindfarms |
From the brains I am able to pick who unfortunately will not allow me to quote them outside the context of the Dynamite distributors forum, pemphigus is a detox reaction to all kinds of "mectin" wormers. I don't know whether there are actual research studies to back them up - I do know that most distributors who talk about their experiences with it relate it to use of ivermectin or another mectin.
The mare my customer had literally had it spring out on her rump about 24 hours after using one dose of ivermectin. It's my understanding that the mectin overload can be years in the making or days in the making. The mare was also always dewormed and vaccinated according to schedule. She has since been put down due to brain disease that some folks I know attribute to vaccinosis but again I don't have any hard documentation from the autopsy to prove that. Just a bunch of people who have been in horse health for years and years making their best WAG. At one point in time, I had pics of the mare's rump on my photobucket account but apparently I deleted them. If you can post some pictures, I can tell you if the look is the same. Sometimes you can trace the outbreak to an allergic reaction like a neck outbreak from scratching on a tree but if you OD the horse on ivermectin and then have a pemphigus outbreak then you pretty much know what you're dealing with. Wherever there is skin eruption there is liver overload. I can walk you through doing a kinesthetic muscle test that will show you whether or not the liver is stressed. I doubt seriously Farnam will ever pick up any vet bills on things like this - I know of 2 distributors who have tried to no avail. The treatment is detox for the liver and organic salve for the skin. You can also shampoo with a mild tea tree oil shampoo. |
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| jenlm |
Mike, How was the diagnosis of Pemphigus arrived at? | ||
| karmikacres |
Cytology and histology reports from skin scrape and skin punch biopsy.
Go to equine pemphigus foliaceus at the yahoo groups to see more. We are building case studies and compiling articles there. Karen |
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| Clarissa |
The skin blistering problem that AQHA requires blood typing for has been around a lot longer than ivermectin! In the article I read in Equus several years ago it said there was documentation of it affecting working horses many decades ago. | ||
| karmikacres |
Clarrisa, I couldn't read the documents you sent. They were too small. Is this skin problem been identified as Pemphigus Foliaceus? Vets around here don't seem to have a lot of experience with this condition. I have found two vets that have seen several cases. One of them is close to us. He seems to think he can treat it without the use of steroids. So far Hollywood is doing real well on his low dose of Dex. We will begin to taper that off in a couple days to see if we have a relapse. We just pulled another CBC and a whole blood Selenium on him last night. Will be interesting to see if he is deficient in Selenium (even though we do supplement it). We found several horses with this condition that have had selenium deficiencies - even if supplemented. Interesting. Karen |
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| Clarissa |
Karen you will need to zoom your screen to read the pictures. Something in the photobucket handling system insists on reducing them when they linked.
It's very likely there are several versions of this disease. Somewill be genetic for sure as that is what is blood typed but there may well be other versions that are enviromentally induced. What they all may be called is another issue entirely as there seems to be a lot of confusion about it! All I know is that if your horse gets lesions mostly in pressure areas such as under the saddle, it gets refered to by some name which is too long to remember & people start jumping to conclusions! If the horse is a AQHA or Paint reg mare or stallion you are in deep do-do! lol Geldings not so much deep do-do but you are still obliged to notify AQHA or Paint registry. 
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| karmikacres |
Clarrisa, Hollywood's lesions are not pressure related. All showed up on his neck, belly, sheath and between front and back legs.
As far as I know so far, there is no blood test for this autoimmune disease. Diagnosis is made through biopsies. Doesn't sound like we are talking about the same thing. Karen |
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| jenlm |
Clarissa, You are thinking about HERDA which is a genetic disease. Not sure what it might be called in the land down under. Pemphigus is an unrelated skin disease. Herda horses skin is not formed correctly and has no elasticity therefore pressure makes it basically come loose from underlying tissues.
Karen, did you have a dermatopathologist reread the slides for you just to confirm the diagnosis? Hopefully you can get this flare up quieted down and then find the trigger. |
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| jenlm |
Erin, could you provide scientific references for the link between pemphigus and ivermectin? Had not read anywhere about that linkage. Thanks in advance. | ||
| whisperingwindfarms |
Unfortunately, the information I have is from the Dynamite Distributors Forum and it is not "legal" under the terms of my contract for me to distribute it. I wish I could - there's gold in there. |
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| Mandy'sMarty |
Erin--I'm pretty sure I understand the link between Pemphigus and the use of more Ivermectin than the horse's body can handle. I am not yet a Dynamite distributor. Since you are not allowed to reveal on this Forum the requested information on the Dynamite Distributor's Forum, is it not possible to request this information directly from either Judy Sinner or Regan Golob in order to share it with potential clients? Obviously there is a legitimate need for this information, particularly if it can help one horse. I think both Judy and Regan would agree. | ||
| karmikacres |
Our vet consulted with a local equine dermatologist. My understanding is that they would want several more biopsies which Hollywood was NOT happy about. The lesions are now almost gone due to the Dex so I don't think the biopsies would be an option unless (until) he has another flair up. We will be do our best to prevent any future flair ups. Unfortunately, the triggers, other than possibly the wormer are unknown. It will be next to impossible to prove the wormer was the cause. Even if we could prove it was the wormer we don't know what ingredient in the wormer is the problem. All very frustrating. Karen |
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| whisperingwindfarms |
Already there - I called Regan and left a message. All the information I can find on google.com is related to Ivermectin causing pemphigus in dogs. I'll post more if I get permission. BTW, I had no idea that some researchers are reporting that pemphigus is 90% fatal. That sounds rather bizarre to me. |
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| jenlm |
Erin,
It's odd that information like that would be propriatary. Any idea who did the original research? I am not trying to be contrary, but I have a hard time believing stuff if the "evidence" can't be shared. |
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| karmikacres |
The 90% is not from the Pemphigus it is from the secondary founder from the use of high doses of steroids to keep the pemphigus under control. And the fact that owners don't want to deal with the disease. The disease itself isn't going to kill the horse. Karen |
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| whisperingwindfarms |
Mike, One of the rules of the forum is that posts may not be shared with the general public. For the most part, I believe this comes from the strict guidelines the FDA issues about claims for products such as the ones Dynamite sells. Dynamite advises distributors all the time to be VERY careful about running afoul of FDA guidelines since Dynamite is responsible for claims made by distributors even though we are independent contractors. Most posts on the forum fall into two categories - distributors posting questions about what to use under what circumstances and distributors posting on what has worked for them in certain instances. Either could be construed by the general public as something they are not intended to be. The research itself is not the issue. Distributing the posts themselves outside the Dynamite community is the issue since I could lose my distributor license over it. I will not put that at risk. Erin |
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| jenlm |
Erin,
I can appreciate that, so can you point me to the research? Anecdotal posts are fine, but are anecdotes - not science. So is there research? Again, not trying to be contrary, just hoping to learn something. |
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| kristie |
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