| Archive for It's About The Horse The Free Forum for those Doing Parelli - and a whole lot More! "Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful." Xenophon (430-355 B.C.), |
| appellativo |
Anything compare to APF?I'm going to a clinic end of month and wondered about ordering APF. It's a little pricey and I was wondering if there is another supportive supplement that's cheaper. Yes I'm spending almost a thousand dollars going to this clinic and I'm trying to save a buck! lolWhile I'm asking, what's a good electrolyte (it has to taste good or my horse won't eat it, she's picky!) |
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| bit |
dunno about an alternative. I have Eclipse, (who is so fat her saddle no longer will fit) and Gunner, who is dealing with an abscess, on apf. One bottle is pricey, but it lasts a long time. I was able to keep two horses dosed on one bottle a month. The difference in the horse's condition was spectacular. I'm not kidding, from dull to muscled and so glossy they shined. Over all body condition sold me on the stuff. I intend to keep Gunner and Eclipse, my riding horses, on it as long as I can afford it. It has been the best stuff I have ever used. Can ya tell I like it? I'm on my lap top right now, but when I get my desk top hooked up again, I can show you before and after pictures. Pretty dramatic. | ||
| creekwood |
PELLETED electrolytes! Seriously, they are a lifesaver. A $20 tub has 45 servings. I have a free shipping code for Smartpak til the end of april. I'll dig it up and post it.
http://www.smartpakequine.com/productclass.aspx?productClassid=3665 they carry APF too, I think it's $59 for a bottle. |
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| Mandy'sMarty |
A friend recently asked me about a supplement that I had used to successfully treat a laminitis episode that Mandy experienced a couple of years ago. My vet was so impressed with her rate of recovery, she told me to start riding Mandy six days after radiographs were shot. The supplement is a liquid zeolite called Natural Cellular Defense (NCD). My friend asked me what I thought of APF and if they were similar.
I don't think she would mind me sharing the following excerpt from my email response: I have not used APF. It is my understanding that APF supports the immune system function, protects against stress and aids in recovery from illness and injury. I believe it is recommended as an ongoing supplement with higher dosage during stress/work. NCD removes heavy metal toxins, disrupts the viral replication process, and re-balances pH so that the body is no longer a welcome host for bacterial, viral, fungal infection. NCD can be taken daily, or it can be taken in higher doses over a sufficient duration to periodically detox the body. It is active in the body for 4-7 hours. The bad stuff is trapped in its molecular structure and is eliminated elegantly from the body as waste material. It literally removes or resolves much of what the immune system is combating. I think of APF as delivering more armor and bigger artillery and more supplies to feed the army...and NCD as simply removing and or disarming the enemy currently on the battlefield. In addition, I would think that using NCD would enhance the benefits delivered by APF, assuming the body was under a sufficient ongoing stress load from the continuous burden of new stressors/work load. Before I trailer Mandy for a weekend away at a clinic, endurance ride, or camping trip, I begin supplementing her diet with the probiotic Dyna-Pro. 24 hours before competition, at each checkpoint, and at the finish of the race, I feed Dyna-Spark Electrolyte. |
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| appellativo |
I don't understand how NCD can differentiate between a toxin and a beneficial element. Therefore I guess I'll stick with APF for now.
I will see if I can find the Dynastuff, and thanks for the electrolyte recommendation! |
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| Mandy'sMarty |
The following are some common questions regarding Natural Cellular Defense:
Q. What is Natural Cellular Defense? A. Waiora's Natural Cellular Defense has been clinically formulated to help support a healthy immune system, remove heavy metal toxins and balance your body's pH levels.* Waiora's Natural Cellular Defense is comprised of an activated, liquid form of a naturally-occurring zeolite. Q. What are zeolites? A. Natural zeolites form in nature as a result of a chemical reaction between volcanic lava and saline water. Zeolites have large open spaces or cages in their structures that form channels. These channels allow the easy movement of ions and molecules into and out of the structure. This ability puts zeolites in the class of materials known as "molecular sieves." Another unique and important fact about zeolites is that they are one of the few negatively charged minerals found in nature. The natural properties of zeolites act as molecular sieves, or filtering agents, that attract and trap into them positively charged atoms, ions, and compounds, and can remove them from a system. Q. Which zeolite do you use for the Natural Cellular Defense? A. We use naturally-occurring clinoptilolite in the Natural Cellular Defense. This particular zeolite has been used for over 800 years in traditional medicine to improve general health. It has been widely used in its raw form in places like India, China and Russia. In the United States, zeolites have been used in water filtration, air purification, animal feed and even in fertilizers to keep the crops healthy. Now we're using it in an enhanced form using a proprietary activation technology as a dietary supplement. Q. So, what is actually in this mineral? Is it something that we can find on the periodic table? A. It's a mineral with a cage-like structure. It's created by aluminum and silica that are trapped in small tetrahedra (pyramid-like structures) created by oxygen atoms. These form 8-sided and 10-sided rings that stack on top of each other to form channels. The aluminum is positively charged and the oxygen around it is negatively charged, giving the entire molecule a net negative charge. This is a very stable compound. For all practical purposes, this is an invincible molecule. Q. How does Natural Cellular Defense work? A. The zeolite in the Natural Cellular Defense attracts and traps small, highly-charged particles that fit into the pores and channels of the zeolite cage. This includes heavy metal toxins. The Natural Cellular Defense has been shown to remove mercury, lead, cadmium, arsenic and other heavy metals. Research has shown that it does help balance pH, which makes a more alkaline system. A slightly alkaline environment in the body helps to stabilize the immune system. Source: http://www.mywaiora.com/921616 |
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| appellativo |
dumb question: with a pelleted electrolyte, do they eat it, if so is it palatable, or do you mix the pellets in the water? I've never used any kind of electrolyte before. | ||
| Mandy'sMarty |
Not a dumb question. I do not use a pelleted electrolyte. I would check with the manufacturer, read the label of the specific pelleted electrolyte you are considering. |
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| appellativo |
It's too bad all these toxins are free and the healthy stuff is $155 for a four ounce bottle. And we thought gas was expensive. (I'm havin' a real bad day.) | ||
| creekwood |
Platinum Osteon (http://www.platinumperformance.com/Osteon0153/productinfo/EOSTP10/) is made of high quality Zeolite and it's a fraction of the price. I fed it to Quinn after his frature. Plus, it has the research to back it up. I've never heard of NCD, so not sure how it compares.
Right now, we have a three year old on VivoZeolite (http://vivoanimals.com/VivoZeoClearEQ.php) as a last resort for diarrhea before he goes to Pilchuck (tried APF, Biosponge, Succeed, Metronidazole,....) and it's working. It's $70 for an 8 lb bag. You don't need to mix water with the e-lyte pellets. Just mix it with her regular grain/supplements. |
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| appellativo |
Thanks guys for all your input and help! I ordered the electrolytes and APF. I will keep the zeolite stuff in mind for future reference. | ||
| Mandy'sMarty |
You're not comparing apples to apples. Fortunately you're not comparing apples to oranges. But you are comparing apples to apple brandy. All zeolites are not equal. And powdered zeolite is not as powerful in its abilities as the activated liquid zeolite in NCD. Zeolites have a cage-like-structure that attracts toxins, and any heavy metals that the zeolite comes in contact with in the ground are attracted and trapped within the zeolite cage. So basically, the powdered zeolite's molecular structure is partially full already, and consequently it can't detoxify nearly as well as the completely empty cage like the molecular structure of NCD can. NCD uses a proprietary process to clean the raw zeolite, empty the cage. Powdered zeolite has a molecular structure that is too large to pass into the bloodstream and into the cells in order to attract heavy metals and toxins. It basically works within the gut. It removes heavy metals and toxins via the body's solid waste. NCD has a molecular structure that enables it to penetrate the bloodstream and the cell membrane. It removes heavy metals and toxins via the body's urine and solid waste. I went to the Platinum Performance website and saw no reference to research supporting its claims, so I can't comment. Activated liquid zeolite has been studied and its claims supported by clinical research: http://www.dovepress.com/clinical...olite-su-peer-reviewed-article-ND I compared the retail cost of Equine Osteon to NCD. Based on the website, a 10lb. size costs $1.64 per day...a 135 lb. size costs $1.02 per day per 1000 lb. horse. I would compare this to a low "maintenance dose" of 3 drops of NCD a day per horse, using the retail price of one bottle @$55, producing a cost of 55 cents a day. And I have read that the benefits of activated liquid zeolite in NCD is as much as 20 times the benefit of powdered zeolite. You do the math. Post Script:I don't give Mandy NCD on a regular basis. I have given it to her as a detox and to reset her pH. I may have given her the equivalent of 3 bottles over the last 2 years. If she presents symptoms of a problem, then I may use NCD to remove toxins or address infection. Right now she's doing great because her body is now able to do what it was designed to do...heal itself. |
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| whisperingwindfarms |
+1 to NCD zeolites for all beings . . . | ||
| appellativo |
so I take it you can use it on people too? when you use it, typically how many days do you use it, and what is the daily dose? I'm trying to figure out how long it would last. If I got a bottle and used it on my horse for a time, then there were leftovers, I could use it on my family...I wonder if you feel/see a difference? For that price, I hope so. | ||
| Mandy'sMarty |
I'll repeat what I wrote a few hours ago. The way I do the math, NCD is cheaper than what Kelsey is paying for a powdered zeolite product that is not nearly as powerful. It's all good. Kelsey is happy. I am very happy. I suppose we all have different ways of calculating the cost of a product. The tricky part is determining how much NCD is needed. I estimate each little bottle of NCD contains about 330 drops. Others use a more conservative number of 300 drops. It is not species specific. I administered about 9-10 drops per day for 9 days and I knocked out my Lab's case of Lyme Disease before she got very sick. I sold a bottle to a friend whose horse was on the brink of laminitis in front feet and it helped prevent a laminitic episode. I sold a bottle to a first-time horse owner who was unknowingly poisoning his horse with chemical fly sprays ( he had applied more than 3 large containers of spray within a week ). His horse recovered within about a month. I have used part of a bottle to quickly resolve an abscess in Mandy's foot. I personally took about 6 drops per day for a couple of weeks, noticed results within a week and quit feeling tired and achy when I woke up every morning. For someone who is probably very toxic, it may take the equivalent of about 3 bottles to adequately detox your body so that it is not dealing with the overloaded burden of toxins...and able to function in a normal healthy manner. Horses have larger bodies than we do and usually they require more NCD than we do if their toxic burden is equivalent. I have not yet encountered a horse that is burdened with that much toxicity. Feel free to send me a PM or email and we can discuss specifics. Check out the information on this website: http://www.mywaiora.com/921616 |
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| Mandy'sMarty |
To add further confusion to this discussion about liquid zeolites, there is a pop up ad appearing below my post advertising a "liquid zeolite". Be aware that all liquid zeolites are not created equal. The ad refers to a product that includes humic acid. It is NOT NCD! Some samples of liquid zeolite that contain humic acid have tested positive for bacteria in the humic acid. That is definitely something you do not want to ingest into your body, your child's body, your horse's body...any body. Buyer beware. | ||
| PasoBaby_CarolU |
The pop up ads change with each use of the page and are really hard to capture. They do target specific words in the thread, so coming back to it might bring up the ad again and you can post the link.
I did want to say something about APF. As many of you know, I tried everything ever recommended last year on my IR mare. APF was one and it did nothing for her - at great expense. Although blood tests are very expensive, they are a non-subjective tool for determining effectiveness of a specific treatment. My suggestion with anything like this is try to find SOME data point to use. If you are trying to improve coat or heart rate after a work out, or whatever, take a picture, measure it, whatever and then try your supplement for a period of time and before you re-order, check the qualifier again under the same circumstances. It's pretty easy to see change just because we want to. It's why placebos work as well as treatments in many blind tests based on subjective results. I just had a bad experience with selenium. I put three older horses here on Nutrena Empower to increase the fat in their diet. Within 2-1/2 weeks one horse started loosing hair. At first I thought it was heavy shedding - she had a heavy winter coat - but it was ALL the hair along her neck and shoulders falling out. The only change I had made was adding the Empower. It doesn't have a lot of selenium in it, 0.6 ppm, but apparently was too much for this horse. Adding supplements is always risky. |
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| appellativo |
I'm sorry (mandysmarty), I was asking about the APF. but thanks for being so willing to provide info.
I'm not really trying to 'fix' anything, I just heard from lots of people that it was good for when you're traveling with your horse so I was trying to cover my bases. Carol I know what you're saying. Lots of things I've tried at one point or another, I haven't really done what you said and had a solid recorded baseline so I've not known whether it's working. I can say that my recent supplementing vitamin E has made a noticeable difference in my horse's coat (this was after the FEEDXL program said that was the only nutrient she was deficient in. I realize that the program probably is not without error, but in this case, it was helpful information.) |