| Archive for It's About The Horse The Free Forum for those Doing Parelli - and a whole lot More! "Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful." Xenophon (430-355 B.C.), |
| Leah |
Are curved bars really curved at all? Point to ponderThere is a discussion on another forum that spurred a thought I have been having so I thought I would open the discussion here:Here is point I have been pondering-get ready to really have to wrap your mind around an idea 
I am beginning to wonder if curved bars are really curved at all! *I* am beginning to think bars are curved only because they are showing a lack of heel platfrom. :shock: Look at this article from The Horse's Hoof-particularly the first photo showing the mustang hoof from Pete Ramey: http://www.thehorseshoof.com/HC_Heels.html Note how much surface area there is to the heel platform...the heel covers an area that goes almost 1/3 the length of the frog. I learned from KC how CRUCIAL a BIG surface area is to the heel-it IS the landing zone-the initial impact point. NOW-look where the bar ties in to that 'forward' most part of the heel platform...the bar angles at about 45 degrees from the frog to the heel/bar triangle at the seat of corn. Picture this hoof IF the heel platform were further back-not as large a surface area (like we see in most domestic horses)...the bar would angle out then curve back to meet the weaker heel platform-creating a curved look. Trimmers often remove the curved portion trying to create a straight bar-often a horse will become tender-this is done to straighten the bars, often in the name of opening the back of the foot. I am wondering if this is backwards. KC also taught us NOT to remove bar material that could 'fill in' for lack of heel purchase (or heel platform). If you have a foot that has small heel platform or purchase, you may consider LEAVING the back of the bar full and level with the heel height. It would still curve, but provide stability to the back of the foot. As the heel becomes stronger and grows more platform, it will fill in and the bar will be correct-as it is in Ramey's photo. KC teaches the hoof wall/bar functions as a C-spring. I think when this is weak it allows the 'spring' to collapse (contract)-this is because the heel platform is not strong enough to hold the spring open (decontracted)...when the platfrom gets stronger (by manipulating it with the roll-relieving outer wall to create stimulus to the inner wall-correct stimulus creates correct growth), the foot will hold 'open'. This article talks about healthy bars coming first-but I am now wondering if it is actually creating healthy heels that should be the focus-this can be done very easily with the ideas I described above-and is a less technical tool for trimmers-they are building heel material rather than cutting bar material. Make sense? Thoughts? |
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| appellativo |
I seem to recall something about this from the ramey vids but I need to watch it again! Can't wrap my mind about it at the moment, I'm fried....(long day!) Something about how the bars will 'STRAIGHTEN OUT' as the hoof assumes a more natural shape. tagging along... | ||||
| Leah |
Pete says bars are curved because the back of the foot is short-when height gets correct they will be straight.
The two could relate actually. |
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| ElaineC |
I know I've started leaving bars until after I've done a heel purchase, I find that they turn out less curved looking so I'm inclined to agree. I may knock off the worst of long bars before I trim, but tend to find tune them after all the rest of the work on that side is done. I think that bars also look curved when they are beginning to lay over, with work I can usually find something decent in there though.
Improving bar work has become my latest "thing to learn more on" so the topic is very timely! |
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| jokersmama |
To *me* that hoof in the first picture looks as though the horse was loading the right side of the hoof more than the left. Personally I like how the right side looks, it has a nice and tight connection, the left side looks as though it's a bit overgrown and the heel and bar have moved forward from lack of stimulation, seeking contact with the ground, even the sole has some material that looks like it needs to get rid of. I would love to see some rads of this hoof and see what P-3 looks like if it is flared or tilted because of the way the horse was landing (according to the way the hoof looks like it was landing anyway).
I see the landing zone/heel platform/heel purchase is big on the other hooves and I like that aspect but I don't like leaving the bars looking like they are laying over/flared over sole material. Couldn't that lead to bruising and abscessing? Especially considering that is the "landing point" there would be the most amount of pressure there on the bars that are laying over the sole material? Just my thoughts... |
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| Leah |
There is a time when I would have agreed with you.
Now I am not so sure. 
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| havingfun |
What stuck out to me was rounding the heels similar to the rest of the hoof. Licking and chewing. | ||||
| Leah |
The rolling of the heels is a very powerful tool. I have been doing that for several months now and it is part of my trim.
It is a less pointy impact point-has done wonders eliminating growth rings. 
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| jokersmama |
What happened or have you learned that made you "not so sure"? | ||||
| Leah |
Nothing really technical.
I just was looking at Milo's hooves one day and realized his inner wall was getting really thick, then I was really happy that his heel area was increasing in surface area. The I realized that placed the heel/bar triangle further forward and then noticed his bars were straight. SO it got me thinking...if I keep putting his bars back in place when his heels are still thin and weak, am I removing something that needs to be there? THEN I remembered KC taught us never remove bar material that can be used to fill in for missing heel material. Then my jaw dropped. Then I started looking at other horses in my barn and that I trim. I haven't made a huge study out of it with only a few clients  but it got me thinking.
SO then I re-read Pete's article on bar trimming and observations of his BIL, Alex.... THEN I started weighing and balancing the different thoughts on bars...and the impact of terrain. THEN I pondered and posted. And I am still pondering. Keep in mind I have spent the last month taking care of a sick foal-I have had to cancel appointments, not trimmed mine or if I did I would rasp and run... So I have seen different growth periods...it has been interesting. ALSO, one foal came to me with very bad feet-his bars were growing in ALL over his sole and around his frog-the very thing some teach is bad and wrong. Well, he is 6 months old and does not exactly stand for long AND I don't touch the sole of a baby at all. SO all he gets is a megaroll and heel roll. His bars are going away on their own  without any trimming at all.
BUT it has been wet here. So it gets me thinking about terrain and environment and wet areas vs dry. WHY the difference between now and before? We were bone dry in July-bars needed to be trimmed or the grew and grew. Well I think. But now it is wet-so maybe the foot can do just what it needs and we don't need to interfere. I think. I have left the sole alone but never with addressing the walls the way I do now-I wonder what difference that makes in the overall bottom of the foot. Maybe rasp and run is not such a bad method after all. OH also keep in mind the biggest changes are in my 2 horses that are ridden and asked in every ride to carry me with a lifted back and correct posture. SO then I started thinking of my Biomechanics article and how MUCH influence THAT is...maybe even more than I realized. SO, that is a moment in my head.
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| learningthedance |
What I find to be very interesting, is the bars in those first pictures, compared to the "trimmed" foot. Look at how the bars naturally follow the lines of the collateral grooves and the frog. They LOOK like they work in unison and basically mirror the frog and grooves so they can work together.
Now look at the three pictures of the trimmed foot. The bars look as though they go against the natural lines of the frog and grooves, sticking out (or running away) from the the parts they should be working with. Pretty drastic when you look at the comparisons. EDIT: I know in those pictures, he is talking about heals, but I think he has sacrificed those bars by doing things that way. If he just brought the heals back a little bit, the bars would be in a better place (not T-boning off the frogs) Is that a word???LOL. IMO of course, and yes, I am still learning here and this is only *my* observation/opinion. |
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| Leah |
All the discussion is great BUT I really wanted to focus on the heels on the wild hoof-how it relates to the bars.
LTD-what do you mean bring the heels back more? On which hoof? I went back and looked and in every photo the heel is at the widest part of the frog. If you are talking about the front of the heel-the part nearest the seat of corn-that is what I am talking about! Healthy hooves have heels that start back at the heel bulbs and fill up the entire back third of the frog! THIS is what creates huge purchase/surface area! See that first photo-the wild hoof-it is ALL heel in the back of the hoof. I can't help but wonder if trimming 'bars' by some (not all) is actually removing material NEEDED for additional surface area (and hence comfort). |
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| appellativo |
Ok don't laugh at me but here's my question: how important is it to have straight bars? Does it matter if they are straight or curved? Or is it another/other factors that matter more? If so, what are they?
I see what Jokersmama was saying, where that one left heel (in the top photo) is a little more forward than the one on (our) right...but even if someone were to take a couple rasp swipes to 'even it up' with the one on the right, the heel purchase would still take up about a third of the frog like Leah is saying it should. I also noticed the difference in the two types of feet (wild mustang vs. trimmed) how the bars 'flow along the frog' in some of the hooves and seem to 'T-bone' the frog in others. Very interesting, not sure what to think about that yet. This is a good thread! It's making me think! |
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| appellativo |
Looking at the pics again, I observe a nice heel platform but also big gap and tboned bars in all James's trimmed hooves; VERSUS the mustang hooves, which also do have a nice platform, but do NOT have that larger gap/hole (between the bars and the frog) and T-boned bars. I still don't know why that is or know what to think about it yet! | ||||
| learningthedance |
I "think" we are talking about the same thing?? First attempt at drawing on photo's, so I am not sure how clear this will be. What is in my mind though.... Wild Hoof [img] 
Trimmed Hoof 
If he just brought that back a tad (my drawing is not very good though), would it not make for a better bar set up/larger platform?? Working with the rest of the foot, rather then working against it?? Something about that trim just looks very "un-natural" to my eye. Well, not so much the trim, but the way the bars have been manipulated and the lack of a good solid platform. Again, IMO OK, Just thinking out loud here. hmmmmm interesting. |
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| Leah |
Good job on the drawings.
The first one I agree with. The second one is good to illustrate what I am saying. Let's ignore for a minute the 'direction' of the bars-they are tapered very rapidly (how James trims) to shorten them rapidly (functional on hard terrain according to their system-which I don't want to go into the details on this discussion-it will complicate things)... Actually what you are saying is exactly what I am saying I would NOT do-what you have shown does not include the BACK of the heel. The impact point IS the same as the first photo-it is at the widest part of the frog. Your right side red arrows show what I am saying-the bottom right side arrow IS the back of the heel-placed perfectly. It is beveled or rolled (and there are reasons for that-it allows you to bring that point back to the widest part of the frog without lowering height on the platform-it is ramed but you still have height at the top of the platform-the white "V" on your right hand side would be the heel height). Can you see that? You are talking about bringing the BARS back which would decrease the heel platform. THIS is what I think many trimmers are doing to create straight bars and is EXACTLY what I *think* can sore some horses. Instead if you want a more 'natural' looking bar-or one that minics photo 1, I would not take more away, rather let the bars run more 'with the frog' rather than angling them to T-bar into the frog. Again, different trimmers have reasons for running with vs T-bone...that is a whole nuther topic. To bring back those bars as you have drawn would shorten them even more...rather leaving them at the heel would help create heel purchase/platform. Make sense? |
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| Leah |
To make this more clear, look at the mustang hooves (third row of hooves)-see the red arrows showing the back of the heel and the 'front' of the heel-they have bars shaped more like what I think you would say are natural BUT they still have BIG surface area.
To do what you described would do what is in the NEXT hoof-it removes bar material and makes the heel surface small. |
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| Leah |
If I am still unclear, maybe someone else that does understand my ramblings can pipe in? | ||||
| Autumn |
This is going to be one of those things I have to read then re-read then, hopefully dream about tonight so I can understand it. | ||||
| learningthedance |
Me too. LOL |
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| Leah |
*snort*
or drink some red wine-it will be AMAZINGLY clear! |
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| jokersmama |
HOLY CRAP Leah- that moment in your head made mine hurt!
Lots to ponder here. Ok I've written out a couple different paragraphs on my thoughts and then none of it made sense -I can't get it into words. I need to go find some wine I guess...maybe a cold beer would work? |
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| Autumn |
I think beer might work. Maybe I need to find some of those funny mushrooms for this one! |
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| Newfman |
I'll bite. . .I think the bars are the least understood part of the hoof. I will say right up front, I do not have the answers, so don't expect resolution before reading my windbag response.Where I am having problems is not with Leahs theory, because you can't say a theory is right or wrong until it is proven. Since nobody really knows for sure what the bars are, what they do, and how they should be handled, Leah may very well be spot on, or way off. That sucks, yes? I will strain my brain since I don't have time right now to dive in to deep research; I think it was my old pal Dr. Robert Bowker  (it's a personal thing) who concluded that; the bars are an integral part of the sole and the heel, yet they are independant. He went so far as to say that the bars even have their own Corium. So, that brings the grand total up to....6, right? (Perioplic, Coronary, Laminar, Solar, Frog and now Bar).
I am not sure if that is written in stone, but, since he is more educated than I, and has more experience rooting around the inside of the horses hoof, I will buy it for now. It certainly answeres questions that I have had, like; how did none of the rest of the hoof show any significant growth in the past five weeks, yet the bars look like they are infused with Miracle Grow? So, it is likely they grow independantly of the heel which is a part of the hoof wall (hence the Laminar Corium) and it is reasonable that the "Perio Receptors" (Bowker again) sensed a change that required rapid action, i.e. super bar growth independant of the heel. That being said, as the up and coming brilliant Learning The Dance noted,
I think personally, Jim is personalizing his trims. Making his mark. If I were a talented trimmer/carver/musician, I bet i could get the bars to look as though they run forward to the toe and finish in the shape of a treble clef. Sorry Jim, sarcasm is the lowest form of comedy I know, but it does make for a colorful point !
The point is, you can direct the shape of sole material anyway that you want, but, if it does not follow the underlying bar corium (asssuming that there is one) then you are doing exactly that, directing sole not bar. Let's take a look at some platform heels 
I tend to reserve my trust in a statement or point being made when I am only getting part of the story. Here is an example: 
So, that is the first trim on a negleted Standard Bred. First of all, how many of you would not have noticed it was a hind foot? When only one hoof is shown and it isn't labeled, it can be hard at times to tell. Horses grow such a variety of shapes to the hoof. I will try to remember to explain the significance before I am through. Note the length of the "platforms or Purchase" on these heels. The pre-trim shot shows short little heels. The post trim shot show a longer "Purchase". It isn't easy to create this. It is close to magic! Now, see how I have drawn the heel back and carefully roughed out the bars to create a long heel purchase? These are not under run heels. Really? Not under run? Well, without a lateral view. . . on a domestic horse... I am not buying it. Could very well be, but, I want to see the lateral view and form my own opinion. Here is the Lateral View of the above foot: 
Sorry about the rock
The horn in these feet were almost ground parallel. So there you have it, i tricked you and those heels actually were under-run. I am not saying that the afore mentioned website was trying to be deceptive, just that we all have different interpretations. So, if you want to convince me of some 'new finding' you gotta' show me all the views. Again, I like to form my own opinions. And boy do I have opinions!
We are trying to use the wild hoof as a model for trimming our horses and stimulating healthy growth, form and function. Not all wild hooves are exactly the same. First of all, the hind hoof sustains impact very diferently than the front. Just the weight factor alone is considerable. Also, a lot of high speed down heel braking happens on the hind heels, with that big butt tucked under and sliding down a rough and rocky hill side. That is a different treatment than the front heels get. Some wild horses are on more of a high desert mesa, while some are on mountains. All of these things contribute to the shape of the hoof. I would expect to see long heel platforms on some wild hooves and not others. The wild hoof is truly forged. Cold forged if you will. Literally pounded into shape. Hammered, abraided, polished, hammered some more. It is done by traveling huge distances over rugged country and being pushed heavily through much of the day. Domestic horses are totally lacking much of this "Forging" effect. Only the most dedicated horse owners and care givers can hope to actually put a "forging" effect on a horses hoof. We "Carve" a wild hoof likeness, but don't mistake our artistic versions for the strength and durability of the highly tempered and forged wild hoof. I believe we really need to stick to the basic guidlines that the hoof provides. We carve the hoof to mimic the basic wild hoof model. If a wild hoof has a forged and worn 4 point form to it, that foot belongs to that horse in that horses environment. If our domestic horses wear a four point form then that form is his. I would not, however, put a four point trim on a domestic horse because I saw that a wild hoof had one. Especially since the wild horse pounded and wore his in and all I can do is use inferior hoof wall and carve a shape in to it. It is not logical. I understand an interest in experimentation (on your own horse) as long as you aren't harming them. It is very important that professionals and owners never stop pondering the mysteries of the hoof. It is crucial that discussion be created by imagination to give science a place to discover. But in the mean time, I just stick to the basic hoof trim and let the hoof decide what it is going to do. Quel sera, sera. |
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| Autumn |
The beer didn't work, I did not dream, and now my head hurts. Guess it's off to the woods in search of mushrooms... | ||||
| learningthedance |
Re: I'll bite. . .
Well, you just wait till I get out walking with Autumn through the woods, and watch me go!! LOL Sooooo glad you chimed in Dennis!! You have a way with words that really get's into my head. 
Now, I am off to find my hiking boots before Miss Autumn leaves without me. LOL Edit to add: Now, the "brilliant" part, I am not so sure of, but it did give me a much needed chuckle. 
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| Leah |
After Newfie's post can I join you?
So another the more we learn, the less we know. I think I am going with a new system. Ride More, Trim Less. More fun, less backache and less headache. Anyone care to join me? |
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| Autumn |
I am so with you Leah! Remember when we were kids, and would gallop all around the place, over every kind of terrain and our ponies hardly had to be trimmed at all? Maybe that IS the key... | ||||
| Leah |
Re: I'll bite. . .
Interesting photos and points! |
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| calatar |
Leah I know you didn't want to get into it on this thread but I would love to hear more about bars running with the frog vs. t-boning on another thread...(hint, hint) | ||||
| Newfman |
I saw my entire post Quoted, but did not notice the comments added within. Sorry.
If, then yes. It has long been believed, and is presently the de facto standard, that the hoof wall, a product of the Laminar Corium, encases the periphery of the foot and effectively turns inward at the point of the heel and bends inward along the collateral sulcii and gradually terminates somwhere around the midway point to the apex of the frog. So, as I posted, how would this account for such a distinct difference in growth rates (upon occasion) as if completely independant of the rest of the hoof wall. It (a bar corium) certainly makes for a plausible explanation, and easy enough for almost anyone to wrap their heads around. It explains a lot. It is even a good explanation as to why one should maintain the direction of the bars in-line with the underlying corium, and not creatively 'go off the reservation' as indicated by LTD in her post.
I am not sure exactly what that says  but I am going to venture a guess.
I believe when you see that happening, it tends to be on a foot that [a] Isn't being trimmed often enough or [b] isn't getting enough natural wear. As in, not getting in his 20 miles per day. Maybe it happens on wild hooves but I haven't seen enough of them to know. It would sure be interesting though! I do think it is perfectly possible to grow excess bar material, lay it over and basically pound it in to the adjoining sole and have it attach. Again, it is similar to forging. You can pound layers of steel together and they become as one. We abraid skin tissue and lay them together and they too become one, I.E. skin grafting. One is an inert material, the other is a living tissue. Sole and bar material falls somwhere in-between. So, I have no problem with bar adding to sole. I just don't know for sure if it is a good thing or bad. This is where I have another issue. I have chatted recently with Pat Reilly at the New Bolton Institute, University of Penn. He is the Chief of Farriery there. The New Bolton Center is where The brave horse Barbaro was treated. He is working on some incredibly interesting stuff with pressure testing and footfalls, heel first, toe first and all that stuff. I was led to him by a fellow trimmer that said that she attended his lecture a few weeks ago (NEAEP) and he was talking about a possibility of the mechanics of the hoof landing phase being ...lateral heel, lat. quarter, toe, medial quarter and finally medial heel. The hoof unrollment to flight phase would then be even distribution medio-laterally from heel to toe. She new I would be beside myself to find that someone in the world was even considering that, as I had already written a theory on it and submitted it to Bowker, Ramey, O'Grady and a few of my peers. All who think I am nuts  . But that is ok, the science behind it is very sound and provided.
Anyhow, while Pat had indeed pressure tested a barefoot horse by using a pressure pad in a boot, he mostly is working on developing data as it applies to shoes so that more effective shoes could be designed that accomodate hoof mechanics in a more natural way. The problem I see, especially pressure testing Barefoot horses, is establishing what exactly IS a "good footed horse"? What is the criteria? How do we measure it? Where do we find subjects? Are the things we learn about hoof care, how the hoof works, how it should land and take flight, and why it grows the way it does, valid if we have been learning from bad footed horses? How do we know? So, the bars, are they separate or not? Do we trim them this way or that? Is it good that they grow and add to the sole or is it their version of an ingrown toenail or hair? Was the sound horse that this was observed happening to, a "good footed horse"? Or was he just sound? Is there a difference? What we do as trimmers and theorists, is exactly that. Trim and theorize. This is why we try to say, usually and sometimes, instead of always and never. What works for this may not work for that. Until we establish true studies with horses that fall within specified parameters of "good footedness" we will continue to work off of skewed data, trial and error, and a few prayers...for those who do that. http://www.neaep.net |
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| Autumn |
It always amazes me how little we really know about the Hoof, and how much more there is to learn... | ||||
| Newfman |
Indeed.
And that is a very handsome looking mule by the way. |
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| Leah |
Newfie newfie-all good points and simply beg more questions.
My understanding is Bowker is not talking about bars growing across sole but literally bars (at a microscopic level) making sole material...different from overlaid bars. I am not 100% on that but pretty sure. So, the camp that argues leave bars would position themselves that thin soled horses would lay down bar as extra protection, all horses would benefit from sole material being generated, and those that feel overgrown bars are bad would argue the ingrown toenail theory. Perhaps all theories are equally correct or incorrect, depending on the horse. Heavens, maybe all methods are equally correct or incorrect depending on the situation! Now wouldn't that just be scary. I know I have learned from a variety of different gurus-I have tried out each trim over the years-from what I learned from Cindy, to Pete (and all of his variations) to KC to what I learned from the Welz's and a little bit of Gene and Bergy... AND I have taken my own spin and mix of each along the way. I think if you are a pro, it is good to have a background and understanding of what each has to offer-each has excellent tips and tools and I have used each successfully and not so succesfully-depending on the horse and time of year. SO it can leave quite a mess or guess I suppose. |
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| Newfman |
Agreed.
And there's the rub. |
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| Leah |
And that's all we have to say about that!
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| Autumn |
Thank you! I think he is pretty special... |
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| carefreegirl |
I was surfing the web about trimming and came across this statement
"The proper trim is one where the hoof capsule correctly conforms to the bones within it." (source: http://www.ecirhorse.com/index.ph...cersice&catid=2&Itemid=20) I thought about that statement, and realized it was a great summation of what good hoof care is really all about. (at least my understanding of it) We are truly trying to get the hoof to match and be balanced with the bones/skeletal system of the horse. That got me to thinking about the bars and what a great mystery they seem to be, so many different opinions and ways in which they are trimmed and wondered if maybe the answer lies in the skeletal system, particularly the coffin bone, so I googled images of coffin bones, and saw that there may be something behind that theory. What do you guys think? I got these images from naturalhorsetrim.com though any image of a coffin bone from the angle of the top right hand photo, and the bottom left hand photo would show where I think the answer may lie. Though it is just a thought, but look at the angle of the coffin bone sides as the swoop in, around the 'empty' area where the frog would be if the whole hoof capsule was in place. If nothing else it will give us something to discuss. Remember I am still a beginner when it comes to this though, it was just an idea. 
Here is the link to where I got the pic http://images.google.com/imgres?i...:en-US:official%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1
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| Newfman |
I went to that web site and was slowly scrolling down through the photos. Just glossing over the text I kept catching the talk about the Heel are to high, you have to drop the heels. I said to my self, 'this feels a lot like a Strasser website?!?!' Got to the bottom....yup! There it was.
She always has great pictures to look at. It is a good place to see things, especially if you are illiterate 
I agree, but You can't always do it on the first trim! That is what Dr. Strasser and her band of butchers can't seem to get through their heads. Being only half German, though born in Berlin, I guess the other half of me has enough patience to take the time it takes to do things more gradually. Carefreegirl:
Yes indeed. If you look up to the point of where the apex of the outline of the frog would project, it is basically quite straight, then does a nice rounded, abrupt curve at the tip. I still don't see an allowance for curved bars, particularly at the angles as "created" at the previous website. The bars just follow the wall of the sulcus, and if they have a slight curve to the sulcus, you would see it it in the bars. Are the bars not basically the 'hoof wall' that forms the perifery of the Collateral Grooves? Growing at their own rate, would they not have their own corium? I submit that they are and they do. That would be my theory at this point. |
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| Newfman |
Scott Kroeger
http://www.thenakedhoof.com.au/ht...IsTrimmingBarsReallyNecessary.htm This proceedure is "NOT ALLOWED" by anyone that doesn't have a Doctorates of Veterinary Medicine! Along with that, any Doctor of Veterinary Medicine that performs this proceedure, in my opinion, should have to answer for it before their State Board of Veterinary Practitioners. |
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| carefreegirl |
Newfman, calm down about where I got the pics, yes I got them off strassers website, but it was a google search, I could have gotten those pics from Pete's website if he had offered those pics of the coffin bone. I have no intention of doing anything extreme to my horses feet. I was using the pics because they were good pics to try to ilustrate what I was saying. I repeat calm down... I haven't done anything crazy I promise I only provided the link to strassers site to cite/show my sources, so people knew where they came from
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| carefreegirl |
and the qoute was not from strassers website but from a different website. my point wasn't about going extreme, my point was maybe the line and angle that the bars should optimally be at is in alignment with the coffin bone angles. Not saying you should trim the bars that way in one trim, but saying maybe they should optimally end up that way, if you slowly trim towards it. Again it was just an observation/thought.
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| Newfman |
No worries! I know you weren't saying to do that, and I read your post in the context it was intended.
It was as I went to look at a larger version of the photos you submitted that I caught the hogwash in the linked website. was unable to control myself for a moment. Thanks for the post and pictures, I don't hold the content of that site against you! LOL |
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| Clarissa |
Probably the main reason I am now still having problems with Sonny's feet is that I was talked into doing the Strasser method. My friend did the full course while Strasser was here in Australia.
Firstly we hacked off/out ALL the bar material right down into the heel/hoof using a Dremmel grinder, ground the sole back to pink, rolled the toe & front quarters way past the white line. I was terrified the whole time. It went against all I knew about hoof trimming. Sonny was pulling back, ripping his foot away. In the end I told my friend to stop. She suppervised me doing his feet every 2-3 weeks for about 6mths but as far as I was concerned the problems we were attempting to treat only got worse. These days I know it had nothing to do with high heels, long toes or anything else. He had lost some weight & the saddle was pinching his back causing problems with biomechanics. But as a result he now has weak bars that overlay too easily, thin soles & toes that tend to scoop forward. It is an uphill battle now of relentless trimming to try to restore the hooves he used to have. They were never perfect. (What QH has perfect hooves anyway?!) But they were adequate for his needs. I had trimmed him since birth with no problems before. But my friend said they should be different & the way to achieve that was to do the strasser starter reshape, followed by invasive fortnightly trims. I am feeling sick in the stomach just thinking about it now as I write this. It has been over 4.5 yrs since he had reasonable feet.
poor dear 
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| carefreegirl |
I so wish I had gotten those pics from a different website, instead of commenting on my idea, the comments have mostly been about strasser, which was not my point or intention.....though the discussion on strasser is fine, just not what my point was.
My idea was referring to the t-boning effect versus the more sloped bars (the angle of the bars in relation to the frog), and maybe the coffin bone could give us some guidance in that regard. carry on...
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| Clarissa |
I understand too CFG, however in the context of this thread about curved bars I feel it's important to discuss what may cause them if the horse wasn't born with that problem. And indeed the fact that it can easily be a human induced problem.
Sonny used to have reasonable bars but now they grow every which way but straight. There is only one reason for that & I truely wish I could have that moment of weakness over again when I agreed to change the way I did Sonny's trim without investigating it more thoroughly! Perhaps other horses that now suffer from curved bars or whatever it is have also been subjected to a drastic change in trimming method at some point in their past that is not now known to the current owner. Your photos about the shape of those bones are very enlightening for me in that it shows that if the basic structures are still sound I should be able to recover a good & proper hoof shape.
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| Leah |
Clarissa, with all due respect, I don't think I could blame a trim from almost 5 years ago for a horse's current hoof health.
He has had at LEAST 5 hoof growth cycles since them-a foundered horse with the coffin bone exposed to the world can be restored to health in less than 5 years. Please don't take offense-but I would be looking for a different reason. Carefreegirl-I understood your post. The same thing happened to me on another thread-I used photos from THH to show one point and everyone missed that point, only to focus on another. |
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| Newfman |
Good point Leah, unless the bars were carved out to the point that the corium was damaged. I would think if there was scar tissue then it may result in irregular growth. I don't even know if that is possible, just something to chew on. |
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| Newfman |
Clarissa, you could start a new thread and post pix and a history.
Getting back to curved bars, how curved are you talking about exactly. Is it a curve that the hoof has actually created or carved in handlebars like previously mentioned? It seems most of the time that I have seen significant curves in the bars and walls of the collateral groove, there has been a corresponding widening of the hoof in general, typically related to flares. As the toe can pull the heel under when it becomes to long, I believe the quarters can do the same to the bars. I also don't believe there is one perfect hoof shape, but little variations of good hoof form. Well developed digital cushions Healthy frogs Strong Lateral cartilages Well attached hoof wall Properly worn down or trimmed Good concavity. Outside of that, there will be some differences between hooves as there are between horses. |
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| Clarissa |
Oh Leah! no offense taken!
I guess you deal online & in person with so many people & the history of their horses that you have forgotten the history I gave you re Sonny & why I asked you for help. I continued to do that fully invassive S trim until a few months before I contacted you. That must be a bit over than a year ago now I suppose. I stopped doing the S trim when I realised I was doing the same thing & expecting a different result! In other words even though I was still doing that Strasser trim I still wasn't achieving a better posture with Sonny. In fact it had gotten decidely worse as had his feet so I quit doing it. Newfman I do have a thread in this part called Sonny's feet:- http://itsaboutthehorse.myfastforum.org/about811.html Unfortunately I don't have any photos of his feet during the Strasser trim period. I started taking photos when I tried the Pete Ramey trim method of larger mustang rolls, etc. Then I asked Leah for help to restore the hooves Sonny used to have. All I have are photos of the horse pre & post S trim. I think those photos are in that thread somewhere to show comparisons in posture. They are self explanatory anyway! Also I have been documenting various aspects of his training in an attempt to restore the whole horse I used to have! There is a considerable section in HQ strengthening in the Biomechanics section & also I have another thread "Things I'm doing with Sonny" http://itsaboutthehorse.myfastforum.org/about2789.html It's just a hell of a learning curve for me. I think I'm doing things right or well, only to find I've stuffed it up big time in some other area of his training or physical state. Everything is so intertwined! He can't carry himself well these days because his feet hurt. Getting his feet right is taking a lot longer than I had imagined. There has been a lot of muscle atrophy which is being particularly difficult to fix. Trimmers say the hoof will change in 3 trims. Or changing the shape of a bar should take 3 trims as was the comment in the link to the nakedhoof article. Well I've been trying for a year with little improvement. There is change but it is very slow & a very long way to go still, but it is a more positive change than I had before.
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| Leah |
Ah yes Clarissa-my apologies-I do have a hard time keeping the stories and history in my head!
I should keep better track. 
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| Newfman |
Good luck with that!
I have a list of my own horses by my computer so as not to get them confused in the mix! |