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bit

black, oily discharge

The vet at k state treated Gunner for an abscess, but I questioned that diagnosis because every abscess I've seen has kind of burst, it shot out, liquid and was immediate relief for the horse.  Gunner had a black, oily discharge, and there was no relief when they opened his foot.
We've had him in Epona's for a little while, he seems to be comfortable in them and we've been riding him.  Today Kelsy redid his shoes because...well, she just did, long story.  He was very uncomfortable barefoot, and there was that black, oily discharge again.  Kelsey said he had white line isuues, she cleaned him up, soaked him in the white line tx, and reshod him.  
Anyone hear anything about the black, oily stuff?  Exrays had a canal going up into the hoof, hanging a right, going acroos the front of the hoof, and traveling all over the place.  Any thoughts?  Just trying to learn here.  I trust Kelsey, but I sure would like to know what the heck that goo is.  Thanks.
thelmanelle

Look up necrosis.
bit

I't coming up on google (key words equine hoof black oily discharge) it's a thrush thng, possibly.  But may be some white line as well.  We are trying to figure this out right now.  I'm trying to put this together with limited to no clue.  This has been going on since the middle of march.  I've tried the best vets in the area.  Now, I'm asking you hoof folk.  
Kelsey is all over this, and posting on her hoof forum.  The more minds we have on this the faster we help this horse.  I'd really like to see him sound and not in pain.  Epona's are the ony reason he's comfortable.
Kim Cassidy

Bit:

Can you share the radiographs?  Remember it takes time to fix a long term issue.

Ruth and I just did another dissection today, horse had a black/gray oozy abscess coming out to the right of the apex of the frog.  When I pulled the sole off, we could see the damage on the corium.

Time would fix the issue and no digging into the foot.  Let the Epona's work on the biomechanics for you.

PM me if you need more info.
Sunny

bit, check out this web site, go to page 10 article "The Live Frog"  this is from the Summer 2009, free copy anyone can view:

http://www.thehorseshoof.com/THHFREE35.pdf


I just got their Issue 39, Summer 2010 as well, and there's the second part of their series "Health and Disease of the Equine Frog Part 2".

By Tuesday, the Fall issue, #40 will be available on line and has Part 3, "Frog Diseases Prevention, Treatment, and Maintenance".

I think it was $25 for the year subscription.

Also, the Issue #39 has article by Jamies Jackson and Hiltrud Strasser about the beginnings and evolution of the barefoot movement, and an article "Improving the Frogs on Healthy 4 yr old Mare".

Quote:
Most hoof clinicians are very conscientious about hoof balance, while the diseased frog (the "elephant in the living room") may go unnoticed.


I've felt that this is a wonderful source of information, loads of picutres and well written and thorough.
bit

It's not his frog, it's in the toe.  Very small worm hole like thing creeps 1/2 way up the coffin bone, and then across.  I don't know where it's gone by now.  Kelsey soaked him with white lightening I believe (put hoof in bag, gas cleans out the bacteria) packed him again with epona goop, complete with antibacterial granuals.  Epona goop shrank up and he was stinky under the shoe when Kelsey pulled it after 4 weeks.  I don't know what the answer is.  His frog looks good.
Sunny

Issue #39
Quote:
While it may be true that infected collateral grooves can be quite sensitive, eliminating disease in the collateral grooves eliminates this sensitivity.  It also improves the health of the white lines by removing a constant source of infection.  Several horses who suffered years of chronic, repeated and extensive foot abscesses were healed by treating occult disease in the collateral grooves after other approaches, including corrective shoeing and trimming by highly qualified practitioners, scruplous diet and environmental management, rehabilitative exercise and recommendations by a regional referral clinic, all failed to help.


Quote:
Many cases of frog diesase are less obvious..... With the excess horn removed as shown here, diseased tissue was visible at the depths of the collateral grooves, which were tender...


I'm just suggesting, bit, that there may be an infection source deeper in the foot that you can't see from the outside....  Do have a read here, bit.  Maybe something will catch your attention as to what's going on with him, with your evidence, there is.....
jokersmama

It sure sounds like WLD to me...this "gas line" is also suspicious  

bit

that curve on the gas line appears to head out, but it actually curved around the front of the hoof.  I know, I feel like mystery diagnosis, and have about that same degree of determination to find out what, why and how on this one.  I want him to be sound, and wonder if eponas are helping or are masking symptoms.  It's been four weeks in shoes, he's not any better, at all.  I know, give it time, but how long do you wait?  Shouldn't he be a little better?  That's why I hope to tap into some hoofy brains.  Someone has seen something like this, and knows.  I've not sat on my hands and done nothing, but feel another trip to k state is a waste.  This is going to be solved by a hoof person.  Should we not use packing with anti bacterial with him?  Should he just be in the shoes with mesh, or no mesh on bottom?  Shoes yes, but should he be open to the air or padded?
Sunny

This is about rubber matting on stall floors, but can it be also happening with plastic or any other type of shoes that don't allow air in between it and the hoof... just my thoughts...

Issue #39
Quote:
Rubber mats, expecially when used without bedding (like shoes on a foot - my insert here), seem to promote re-infection.  In many cases, the ground beneathe the mats provides an ideal location for fungal growth, as is known by every groom who had to strip and disinfect a dirt stall.  Fortunately these areas can be disinfected.  If not scrupulously clean, bedding can also promote disease, not only by retaining moisture and ammonia, but also becoming a reservoir of organic material to support microbial growth.  Classic thrush is often associated with standing in dirty stalls.


In keeping shoes on an infected foot, any shoes, from metal ,to epones, to easy boot gloves, by not removing them "daily" to clean the areas covered by the shoe, doesn't it also give the bacteria a wonderful place to grow?  

I know when I used to shoe and my mare was on an irrigated pasture, there was always thrushy stuff all arount the white line when it came time to reset the shoes.  Now that we're barefoot on dry land all the gunk is gone and she has a nice big fat fleshy frog.

The frog is like the pad on a dog's foot, it supports the whole horse's bone column, along with the wall.  When that is compromised, the whole foot suffers in many ways.
creekwood

BUT, any shoe, unless it has an open toe, is going to close up his empty hole. This thing is right over his white line.
He is uncomfortable without the shoes. He NEEDS some kind of protection, letting him go bare is simply NOT an option at this point. It's just not fair for him to be in pain.

I really don't think it's a frog problem- he always lands heel first, and takes short strides, which is toe pain.

He is turned out 24/7, so no rubber mats, no bedding.
Sunny

Ya, Kelsey.  That is the problem, isn't it?  (I know your guys' horsekeeping practices are super great with turn out and everything proper you're both doing to help him.....)

This is the big problem with treating horses....trying to keep them comfortable while trying to treat them and find out what's wrong and causing the problems in the first place.  

Seems no one has the answer yet.  But maybe have a go at "The Horse's Hoof" information anyway.  There's sooo much they have for suggestions.
RickB.

You could try a steel shoe and hospital plate combination.  That would allow you to treat the foot as frequently as you want and when the wound heals, you take off the hospital plate and the horse is still shod and protected.  Or you could use an open toe egg bar shoe and add polymeric support for the back of the hoof while leaving the affected area open and available to easy treatment.

However, IMNTBCHO, you have to address the wall distortion and consider the remodeling of p3 at the tip, first.
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