Archive for It's About The Horse The Free Forum for those Doing Parelli - and a whole lot More! "Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful." Xenophon (430-355 B.C.),
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imagele
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Blind spotsBuck made the comment that over the years he has done colt starting he has found that horses that were really troubled by things in the blind spot under their chin often have a cluster of other behaviours that go with this. Unless the under the chin issue is addressed appropriately the other behaviours do not ever really go away later on, no matter how much effort goes into it. If the under the chin issue is dealt with the other behaviours just go away without having to be directly addressed too much. That cluster of behaviours (as well as I can remember) are
pull back,
inclined to buck,
strike, fast and accurately, at anything in that blind spot
very heavy on the forequarters
difficulty picking up canter leads and doing lead changes
cannot cope well with ropes being used etc - one of the few types of horses he will lock into a smallish yard and allow to drag a lead rope around
I have found over the years with my horses that often dealing with something I called a core issue would result in a list of other issues - some not seemingly related to it at all - just disappearing at the same time. Sometimes I would deal with issues as they came up but with some things I would go looking for the core issue because it was easier to find and fix that sometimes.
My original levels horse had all these associated issues listed above except the bucking. If she had been inclined to buck or rear in opposition reflex bucking would probably have been her choice, she would buck rather than rear when she was playing.
I managed to get through almost all our issues before she died but the pull back issue she had (which was lethal) I never did get a handle on, She went through 3 sessions with 2 L3 (prepacks) assessors over the years to get this dealt with. She was no better at the end of the last session than she was before the first. I was told she was a candidate for "taking a leg away" or laying down. I could not do it to her so I avoided the issue as much as possible. That was easy since she had feet issues which prevented her being ridden in clinics etc so she did not often go anywhere. I do most of my day to day handling and most of the abnormal things like treating wounds etc at liberty so I rarely tied her up.
I was thinking about Bucks comments on the way home from the clinic. My horse had all these peripheral issues but she was not really that bothered about things under her chin as far as I could tell. Then I thought about it even more later that night. Unlike a lot of horses she did not like being rubbed between the jaw bones, or rubbed on the underside of her neck or the front of her chest. At the time I just took that to be about her not really having an itchy spot under her jaw and the chest stuff to be about pain from bad saddle or blanket fit issues. I thought some more about it and remembered that when I really broke haltering down for them as I reached under the neck to pass the head piece over during haltering was one of the steps in the haltering process where she did have quite a brace, much more so than any other horse I have done this haltering breakdown with. She was the only one of the horses who had a brace with this step that was that bad and appeared not to be related too much to "Oh no I'm caught now". She did that "Oh no ..." feel before I got closer than 12 feet to her. The brace during haltering was about something else, and I never did figure out what. It took us about 6 of the 16 hours we worked through all of her braces with haltering to get through, that was the longest of any of her braces.
She is dead now but I got to wondering - if Buck has observed these behaviours in colts with issues about things in that blind spot under their chin - what about the other blind spots a horse has ?. If a horse has bad issues in one of those blind spots Is there a cluster of behaviours associated with those too ? and if so what are they ?
I have a horse who used to have issues in his blind spot in Z5 and he had a collection of behaviours that mostly disappeared when this was sorted through. I dont know if they are all related but they did all virtually disappear when I dealt with the Z5 issue well enough
bolting forwards (in his case within gait but with the horses there at the clinic with this issue a higher gait)
kicking - lightning fast
cannot touch HQ without flinching away
tail clamping to a much greater degree than my other horses
Needing ot have me in Z1 in preference to the other zones if he is bothered at all
fear of any noise/thing dragging behind him, beside him he cope with mostly, behind was another issue entirely
losing balance on hind feet when upset/knuckling over or losing traction - it looks like the go signals just dont get to the back feet properly
A friends horse did an even more extreme version of a couple of these - he would camp his hind legs right out behind himself, then tuck his butt under himself as much as he could, clamp his tail really hard and then try to run. It looked very, very uncomfortable to me.
Anyone got a horse with issues in Z1 blind spot that they have dealt with successfully ?
Wouldn't there be a blind spot above their ears also ?
What behaviours would be associated with these ?
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PasoBaby_CarolU
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Interesting subject. Rosie has issues under her jaw, but I think they have mostly to do with her Billy Goat beard and not wanting it clipped. I have to clip it because it gets pulled with halters and the jaquima. I wouldn't say she has any of the other behaviors listed although she is afraid of other horses in Zone 5, like in a show. She is OK once she knows the horses. Zar is afraid of ropes on the ground, something I've never gotten her past, even with well over a 100 hours of pulling and dragging ropes....the next day it's like she's never seen a rope before. She also doesn't display any of the behaviors in Buck's list.
But, your list of your guy sounds exactly like Buddy, a colt I rescued. Although he doesn't have issues with THINGS in Zone 5, or anywhere, just people. He's the one I mentioned in the Threshold thread and have talked to Kathleen about. I've only managed to work with him once this year so far. This week's weather is cooperating and I'll be doing more. I plan to ride him this spring, so have to get his groundwork down better. I am too old to just "Get on and Ride" and risk getting hurt. I want it solid on the ground first. This has not been easy. We'll just be working well together and something will set us back. He won't let anyone else anywhere near him, so I can have no help. I'd be interested in hearing more about your horse and what has worked/hasn't.
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cynthia peterson
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Imagele, thank you so much for that long post! And, yes, I most certainly have seen these issues with horses past and present! I think the very best part of your post is that the issue has to be corrected all the way to fix all the added things that go with it! What most of us do is fix it to a acceptable level and never get it totally cleared up.
Oh yes, I have seen this what you described many times. And I remember thinking why did those other things happened when I thought I already had that fixed!
There are bits of this in Parelli. Like the yoyo of having the horse be equal on both. As we have all seen a horse that will not go back has some other elements that go with it. And remember how Linda says Remmer has Z5 issues -STILL? But, what Buck has insight of is so much more. I am surprised Parelli hasn't heard it and tried to sell it as their own.
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Thunder Hollow
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PasoBaby_CarolU
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Can I ask what his fix was for Zone 5 or under-the-chin fearfulness?
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Thunder Hollow
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carefreegirl
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| Thunder Hollow wrote: | | how would one distinguish between fear of things in that blindspot versus just not wanting to be touched there? |
Does the reason really matter? I mean it is still a yeah-but spot, they still don't trust you enough/you don't have enough leadership to be able to touch that spot, right?
Double Ditto Pasobaby's question though. [/quote]
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Thunder Hollow
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imagele
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| PasoBaby_CarolU wrote: | | Can I ask what his fix was for Zone 5 or under-the-chin fearfulness? |
The under the chin issue he did not discuss how to fix, just that if it was dealt with properly the other issues would not be anywhere near as bad or seem as unsolvable later. The only thing he did mention was that colts with issues under their chin are one of the few types of horses he would put in a small safe yard and let them drag a leadrope around. He does not do that with most horses.
The Z5 fix he did start with a few of horses in the colt start. Fairly normal list of things he went through with them - not complete by any means. If I had left my horse with just these exercises he would still have major Z5 issues.
Some of the things he did -
At liberty, rope looped around Z4/Z5 and carry it until you can think/check in and then draw them (do this somewhere safe).
Put the rope around the neck and along the side of the horse, drape above the hocks - got them to carry that for a while until they could start to think a little then rollover the HQ and stop.
Rope around the neck, over the nose and around the hocks. Carry that until you can think a little, HQ rollover and stop.
He did do some separating out of lateral flexion and HQ rollover (in the rope over the nose ones) once the horse was thinking fairly easily. He did emphasise the importance of the horse being able to understand this separation (ground and ridden).
A couple of them got to deal with ropes under tails. Do this in a safe place the first time. If you are going to rope or lead other horse off the back of a horse or .... they need this done. Dont pull the rope out. Did I say do this in a safe place the first time ?
He wanted the horses to start to learn to keep thinking at least a little bit, do a HQ rollover if appropriate and check in with him when they got bothered about something in Z5. That set of task steps is not a hard/fast rule - just the most common thing he wanted them to do.
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imagele
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| Thunder Hollow wrote: |
Also: how would one distinguish between fear of things in that blindspot versus just not wanting to be touched there? How to diagnose this, I guess is my question. |
Buck only discussed this topic for about 5 minutes. He did not get into this sort of thing at all with that topic in particular. There were times when he pretended to be the horses lawyer and told the owner what they were doing to their particular horse. Sometimes the horse was afraid, sometimes the horse was having fun, sometimes the horse was confused - I agreed with most of what he described about those particular horses. He was also spot on in his analysis of how the owner had initially upset the horse and then caused the horse even more issues. Guess who got convicted ? He does not use that to work with a horse though. I saw him use the same technique and approach with a horse about to shutdown completely, a horse who was doing a version of "you and what army are going to get me to do that ?", a horse who said "I dont understand can you explain that again ?" The only thing that varied was how big he had to get to get that try he was looking for. IMO how big he got was directly proportional to how much energy the horse was putting in to countering him rather than going with him. Sometimes he got quite big with a scared horse, and was quite small with a "defiant" horse, sometimes vice versa.
I found Buck a lot like Phil to watch with horses with issues. They find an issue. Why it is an issue is not so important to them - it is just an issue. Whether it is about fear overtly or defiance (which I am really coming to believe is just fear displayed covertly) or dominance or anything else as a cause does not matter much. The horse has an issue it needs help with - that matters.
They choose a technique to use to help it. usually the technique looks like it might have something to do with the issue at hand, but not always eg the taking away of a leg. With them the technique they choose would not really matter much either - they will probably get it to work and help sort out that issue with whatever technique they use. The rest of us might have to be a bit more careful in our technique choices since what they can do with/on a horse is a lot more than many people would be comfortable doing or able to do.
Whether the horse is LB/RB/I/E does not matter they approach it the same way.
Choose a technique, get a try, allow the horse to relax and think about that. Then ask for slightly more try.
Where PNH missed the boat for me, and I think perhaps a lot of others, is that relax and think about it step. PNH said it, they did not teach it. IMO Pat is only now starting to approach what is required in this area. When you dont do that step well enough WHY the horse is doing whatever it is doing and the different approaches to whatever it is doing depending on the horseanality tend to become important. You need those things to compensate for that lack in the relax and think about it step because without any of these things working in your favour - you're in trouble and so is the horse.
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rotate88
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| imagele wrote: | | Whether the horse is LB/RB/I/E does not matter they approach it the same way. |
Fear, dominant resistance, lack of understanding...
It all comes down to self-preservation, doesn't it?
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imagele
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| rotate88 wrote: | | imagele wrote: | | Whether the horse is LB/RB/I/E does not matter they approach it the same way. |
Fear, dominant resistance, lack of understanding...
It all comes down to self-preservation, doesn't it? |
Thankyou,
While i was writing that post I was searching for something that summed it all up and NOT finding it. There are too many trees and no view of the forest in my head right now.
You are right. That is exactly what it looks like to watch them. They are dealing with one issue (however it presents itself) - the horses sense of self preservation.
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Thunder Hollow
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marsha lee
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| Quote: | | I think my problem is that I don't feel all the sticky spots. |
Ann, isn't that part of the journey? You are now somewhere between "consciously incompetent" and "consciously competent" which means you are well and truly on your way to being a terrific horsewoman. (Not that I don't think you are already.  )
I believe feeling for sticky spots is all about awareness/sensitivity. I'm thinking about all the sticky spots my LBI has - some are recently developed and I'm wondering how my actions may have caused them. Probably caused them, if I'm going to be honest with myself.
I'm finally internalizing that for me, the big challenge with horses is the level of constant awareness I need to sustain in order be a halfway decent companion for my horse.
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carefreegirl
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| Thunder Hollow wrote: | | carefreegirl wrote: | | Thunder Hollow wrote: | | how would one distinguish between fear of things in that blindspot versus just not wanting to be touched there? |
Does the reason really matter? I mean it is still a yeah-but spot, they still don't trust you enough/you don't have enough leadership to be able to touch that spot, right?
Double Ditto Pasobaby's question though. |
Thanks Carefree, that was the next part of my question: does it matter, and do you do anything different?
I'm thinking that it does matter...... |
I've been rolling this around in my brain for a couple of days now (I've been sick so haven't been doing much), I think I've decided that it doesn't matter, but at the same time it does, though not as much as it doesn't matter, I know that doesn't make much sense...let's see if I can explain....
whether or not the horse is fearful or dominant those are just different manifestations or symptoms of the same root cause: the cause being that they are worried about the self-preservation, their survival.
People are able to see this root cause more clearly usually with fearful horses as the horses act like things (we) are going to kill them...it is easy to see that they are worried about survival, yet the dominant horse is just as worried about survival but they have more confidence, they are confident in themselves, they know that they can keep themselves safe, but don't trust others with their survival.
So for the fearful horse you first have to get them to realize that even though you may look and smell like a predator, you will not act like one nor will you hurt them, you have to build their confidence. With a dominant horse the focus is more on showing them that you can be a leader, but with both the fearful and the dominant horse the End Goal is that you have to get them to entrust their survival into your hands, that they trust you and believe in you as a leader that is capable to ensure and protect their survival
What you do 'specifically' will be different with the different manifestations, and with the horse as an individual: but at the same time Since you have the same goal in the end and you start with the same root problem what you are doing is so similar that you are basically doing the same thing. This is why the same techniques/training styles can work for both manifestations though the technique/style is tailored to that individual, with things changing with in a particular technique such as the speed/focus/repetitions used/release/timing/feel, etc.
This is what I think imagele is describing about Buck here:
| imagele wrote: | | I saw him use the same technique and approach with a horse about to shutdown completely, a horse who was doing a version of "you and what army are going to get me to do that ?", a horse who said "I dont understand can you explain that again ?" The only thing that varied was how big he had to get to get that try he was looking for. IMO how big he got was directly proportional to how much energy the horse was putting in to countering him rather than going with him. Sometimes he got quite big with a scared horse, and was quite small with a "defiant" horse, sometimes vice versa. |
I think we often get so caught up in the details of the issue/situation and in what we should/shouldn't do and what doesn't seem to work/what does seem to work for a particular type of horse (horsenality limiting us here if we let it maybe?) that we forget the big picture--we forget that the horses 'issues' are often just manifestations of a different true cause (which I think is usually self-preservation in nature), and we also forget (or get distracted from) our main goal of being trusted by our horses.
I've been watching a lot of Dog Whisper lately, and though dogs are different then horses, they are both still animals, and they are both looking for leaders and are concerned about survival, and if you watch Dog Whisper he basically does the same things for a fearful, or aggressive, or dominant, or whatever dog, and it works. His basic recipe for success is to have Calm Assertive Energy and have Exercise, Discipline(rules,boundaries/limitations), and then affection in that order, with some individual tailoring for the individual/manifestation with in that basic recipe. so It matters whether the animal is fearful or dominant but at the same time it overwhelming doesn't matter at all....
I hope that made sense....
sorry about the long post...carry on... 
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