Bubba's INFECTION

becdubie · Bubba's INFECTION

Toward the Feb, I started to notice that Bubba was getting less energetic, not playing with the other horses much, just "off". I chocked it up to a long, winter...we're all so ready for witner to be over.
But he started to loose weight and mid March one day, he wouldn't eat.. and was standing off by himself hanging his head. I called the vet who said he had a case of Gas colic, gave him Bantamine and said to keep him off feed for the day, walk him etc.... I did all that and he was back to eating as normal but still would show signs of discomfort off and on...not drastic and not long lived... Like in the morning he would be back to his normal self but in the afternoon again I would see him standing off by himself, hanging his head acting lethargic his flank area gets very tight and I can hear him girgling from 3 feet away sometimes. I changed his feed to just good quality grass hay from the Grass/Alfalafa mix we had been feeding him. And stopped giving him his Grass/Alfalfa pelelts suppliment. I was to try to get weight back on him.

Normally I wait until May for their spring worming, but decided to worm them all a little early this year...thinking maybe he has worms. Last Thursday I wormed everyone with zimecterin gold. Sunday we were hit with a huge snow storm, I was clear across the country traveling for work and Bubba was in a bad way. Shivering hunched over and in a lot of pain, my husband called the VET, who once again said it was Gas colic, gave him bantamine, and said to keep him off feed, or very light feed for 24 hrs and give more bantamine if he gets poor again.
So Bubba has had on again off again problems all week. I got home yesterday evening and he was obviously in some pain. I took him out for a walk and it was like dragging a tank behind me at first but after he got moving he seemed to loosen up, then Pooped. His poop is normal, nice round solid apples, but he grunted quite noticeably when he pooped. After pooping he just stood very still with his nose to the ground for a few seconds. Then after that he seemed to feel better. Wanted to munch grass and would follow me walking in a more relaxed manner.
I fed him about 2-3 lbs of grass hay, then he started to act all lethargic and in pain again. His flank area gets really tight and I can hear him girgling (which I know it's good to hear the gut sounds). I gave him Bantamine and he relaxed......I went to bed and tossed and turned all night, while the snow piled up....UGHHHHHHH!!!
4am I truge out through our new foot of snow to check on him...he is bright eyed and looking really, really good. Standing normal...not hunched over, not hanging his head. Looking to be in better spirits than I've seen him in several weeks.
So I'll call the VET today and have them do a fecal test to check if he is wormy and find out what else I can do to prevent this....but has anyone here delt with this situation? Any words of wisdom?

Thanks

thelmanelle

Our friend down the road has a TWH that just had gas colic. I told him banamine and the vet to oil . They waited on the vet. The horse would not eat. So I said give him a beer mix with Gatorade ( 1 quart or gallon) add molasses to favor and fill to the top of a 5 gallon with water.

2nd bucket, give salt water.

3rd bucket offer plain water.

4th bucket, offer apple juice (1 gallon) fill to top with water.

If he drinks and acts better great, if not call vet.

He drank, he pooped. Acted better. That night, acted bad, so they took my truck and trailer and drove the dirt roads for about 30 mins . with him...he pooped after he got off.

The next morning, still colicky. They finally called the vet and had him oiled.

I said, it either he is worth saving to you or letting die and buying a new horse? People!

Gas colic hurts! 2nd time I have seen it and the first time, I had a vet out at 2 a.m. I was actually beating the horse to keep it from rolling and laying down. I hated it. But, it saved the horse's life and it wasn't my horse. Someone drove off. left it tied to a trailer and said, "Watch that horse, he acts like he don;t feel good."

The owner was coming to get him the next day and he'd had a dead horse tie to a trailer over night hung by his halter from gas colic. I still get mad about that one. Have to forget it.

becdubie

Yike.... those are scary stories.
so far so good today with Bubba.

I'm just wondering....why all the sudden he would start having this problem. Could it be that the Hay we got this year has WAY more alfalfa than grass? Same supplier we have been using for 4 years, but the alfalfa seems to be taking over his field. Next year we will buy from someone else whose field is Mostly Grass.

But could that be it? I can't get any answers from my vet...he just says, "some horses re like that". I've got a call in to my neighbors vet....thinking I'm gonna be vet shopping here pretty soon.

becky b

My TWH gas coliced about 2 or 3 weeks ago. He has done this several times. Every time we get a lot of rain followed by sunshine the clover pops up like crazy. The vet said that the clover is sweeter than the grass, so they love it but it causes gas. This horse in particular is one of those horses that can survive on air, he stays overweight year round. I have to manage his weight by moving him to the dry lot, or stalling him part of the time. Well you would know, he is the one that is ALWAYS hungry! If I don't pay close enough attention to the weather patterns and move him or stall him he will gas colic. I called the vet out the first time he did it, she gave him a banamine shot, said there was no reason to oil him. So now when this happens I call the vet to alert them to be on stand by, and to let them know exactly how he is acting, they tell me to give him a banamine shot and call them back in a hour, usually within an hour he is fine, then the whole no grain for 24 hours, etc, which only upsets him more. I am getting better at guessing when we have had enough rain, sunshine, warmth, etc, to know when to move him around or put him in the barn. Even tried a grazing muzzle last summer, and he absolutely hated it, spend hours rubbing it on trees until he finally got it off. Said all that to say that you are probably right in thinking that the hay mixture is a little different than it normally is and it has something in it that is causing him gas. Every horse is different, I have a paint mare that can eat straight clover and never colic. I have had her for 14 years and she has never coliced. My TWH colics easy.

thelmanelle

Not even just a horse, but as a person, I am really a sticker to what foods I can handle. Horses are the same, except they don't have the choice we do. If such and such upsets me, I quit eating. The horse is different and will eat it and founder, colic, etc.

So we are the care takers. I have easy keepers and then, a couple of thin boys. I have to separate during feed time.

I hope you get a better hay. I know it can be scarce.

learningthedance

Is there any chance that he has an ulcer?

Omeprazole might be worth discussing with your vet or at least asking him about.

becdubie

Elise, thanks for suggesting that. I just read the symptoms of stomach ulcers.... Bubba is displaying all of them. I'll bring this up to the vet tomorrow morning for sure.

becdubie

The Vet brought up the possiblity of an ulcer or persistent Strongyloides when I talked to him this morning.

I will begin treatment for the ulcer today and the worms in a couple days...the clinic had to order the meds.

Hope this gets him feeling better, I hate seeing Bubba in pain. Last night after he ate....and the colic set in again...I could see the pain in is face. He got a dose of bantamine.... Poor boy.

This morning he seems to be pretty relaxed though, enjoying the sun. But that's pretty typical...he seems better in the morning, but by evenign he is in pain again.

CoolsLadyInRed

Poor boy. You are doing everything you can. Hang in there.

Clarissa

Becky perhaps he’s got entrolyths. When he is given muscle relaxants for colic the entro’s wouldn’t hurt so much but after a while the muscles would tighten around them again causing much pain.

If you don’t know what they are, entrolyths are caused mainly by undigested mineral supplements, mostly containing calcium.

They do show up on xrays usually. They can be in several organs.

Also there’s just plain sand or dirt that gets in there too. Try a few doses of slippery elm powder which becomes quite mucilaginous & ‘scoops up’ the sand or dirt in the lower parts of the gut & help it pass out.

becdubie

No Clarissia, I've never heard of that. Intersting all the things you learn when you have a sick horse. So does the Slipery elm do something different than Psyllium husks?

I haven't had to give him Bantamine since Friday night, and Bubba appears to be feeling a bit better although he is still very lethargic, not interested in doing much but standing around.

His posture was much better this morning though, not hunched over and was even trotting a bit when Angle was pushing him around when I went to feed this morning.
His appetite is good,......so maybe the gastroguard is already starting to work....I donno, just pray that we are on the right track.

Clarissa

becdubie

Thank you Clarissa....I'll study those articles.

I talked to another vet yesterday, she confirmed we are treating what she would treat. So I'll stay the course with the Gastrogard and do the pancur power pack, as soon as it arrives....probably early next week.

i've got Psylliumhusk powder on order, and will look for slipery elm. Going to go look for some peppermit leaves in town today - I guess that will break up gas bubbles.

Bubba seems to be improving(I think) but he is still very low on the energy level..I took him out for a little walk yesterday...nothing strenious and he just sort of mopes along behind me...not even interested in the horses next door running around like maniacs.

Normally he would get a little amped up in that situation.
During our walk, he would slow way down and sort of grunt like he had to poop...but acted like he didn't want to cuz it hurt. Finally after we got back to the barn, he went in the stall and pooped....I watched him...his face winced he squited his eyes almost as if he was straining to get a blockage out and he pooped a nice healthy normal pile. Then afterwards stood very, very still with his nose to the ground and kept turning his head as if he was streching his neck... So it seems he is in most pain right before, during and right after pooping.
Oh this is tough....I hate that he is feeling poor.
The Vet is coming out on Thursday..... I'll be looking for a second job.

thelmanelle

Some people will feed Metamucil or sand colic type product to help with the passage of dirt/sand in the intestines. I hope your horse is better.

becky b

Oh poor baby. I hope and pray he will be much better soon.

becdubie

Had a good check-up from the vet. He say's Bubba looks good, sounds good and seems to be improving. of course when the vet was here he wasn't showing any signs of discomfort...just lazieness.

Today...I agree with the vet...Bubba was more interested in going out to the pasture when I opened the gate.... When I called them in he came in with everybody else. (Yesterday I had to go get him and lead him in) He was a little pushy and quite interested in what was in my pockets.
(

Being happy he was pushy....weird). His posture is good..today.

I'll stay the course with the gastroguard, and start the worming power pack when It arrives. Starting Psyllium today, although the VET said that he doubts he has a sand problem since there isn't any sand around here. The only true case of Sand colic he has seen here is a case where the owners were feeding their horse in an arena full of sand. But he also said it won't hurt. I've got a slurry of Bubba's poop soaking to see if there is much sand, just out of curiosity.
So thanks for listening...Like I told Elise earlier in a PM....I know you all understand what I'm going through. My coworkers/friends non horsey people just glaze over when I talk about my sick Bubba.

PasoBaby_CarolU

I thought you might find this article interesting...just got it now.

becdubie

Thanks Carol...geeze there is so much that could be going on with him. Fortunately he seems to be feeling better slowly, although he was not too interested in eating yesterday morning. By afternoon he was doing better and I even took him out to play a little. I'm going to need to slowly build up his strength and stamina again. I'm suprised at how fast he declined over the winter.
He is so darned skinny...it's hard to tell by the pictures, but his spine shows all the way down. Ribs are not sticking out...but I cry when I look at him.
Picture from yesterday

Although much improvement from a couple weeks ago....he even looked shorter to me when he was at his sickest. the second picture is from last summer. He has always been thin...

Clarissa

This is what I was referring to above . Have a look at the photo Carol posted showing the enteroliths.

http://itsaboutthehorse.myfastforum.org/ftopic6088-0-0-asc-.php

Mandy'sMarty

Has Bubba ever had any dental work? Teeth Floated?
Ever had any attention to his temporomandibular joints (aka TMJ's) ?

becdubie

Yesterday I called my neighbors vet....he asked me what kind of diagnostics the current vet has done.........

I told him....uh guessing...? He sighed and said...I'll clear my morning, bring him in and we'll start with some diagnostics.

Bubba and I arrived at the vets house/ranch (clinic in the barn) we both felt very comfortable there, It was like being home. Out in the middle of the Montana Prairie. This vet used to be strictly mobile but has since built out a nice facility at his place.

He spent almost 2 hrs talking to me and checking Bubba out. He say's something is definately going on but he does not think it is an ulcer or digestion related, the colic was just symptomatic of whatever the underlying issue is. He drew blood, dug a big pile of nice fresh manure from him and prodded around in there for quite a while. Thought he felt something in his bladder....fired up the ultrasound machine...ultrasounded his bladder, which is clear.
He checked his teeth...said he definatly needs a float....we will deal with that later....(I could tell he was making a mental note)
After all that he had me walk him around....he had his assistant get bubba up to a trot (which is quite a feat these days) palpated along his top line to which Bubba flinched and swished his tail in pain sad1

...The vet said...aha he has a sore back..this horse is lame, we have to figure out why. Asked a bunch more questions amongst those were if I have ever taken him out of the state. I had...he went to Idaho (salmon Valley) 3 years ago for training. Then he mentioned EPM(?) . Which is rare here and also in the area in Idaho where I took him, but that doesn't mean he didn't come in contact wtih racoon or oppossom dropings somewhere.
This Vet made sure I had his cell# said to call him directly on Saturday for the results of the blood tests. One of the nicest guys I have ever met. I'm such a ninny for not switching vets sooner.....

Oh lordy...I hope we figure it out.....

PasoBaby_CarolU

Good luck Becky. I hope something shows for both of you..and that it's treatable and affordable. Those enteroliths I posted all came out of the same mare during surgery. I hope it is nothing like that.

I also have one of those 'good old boy' vets here. I have him do my annual shots and routine care, mostly because he is close and always comes when I call. I've been with him for 30 years. But, when it is something beyond him, I don't hesitate a minute to go to a different vet. I have a vet-Chiro, a vet-dentist, a hospital that specializes in leg injuries, and if I ever do it, one that specializes in reproduction services.

Good luck...keep us posted.

becdubie

Bubba's White cell count is elevated and somethign called nutrafills(?) sp is way down. Bubba is fighting an infection. We will start him on Sulfa pills today. (Atleast I think that is what he said).

PILLS? How do you give a horse a pill?

I'm so pissed at myself for not changing vets weeks ago...I'v caused Bubba to be miserable longer than needed.

Seems we will probably be treating him for a

PasoBaby_CarolU

Here you go dear, everything you ever wanted to know about neutrophils:

http://www.medfriendly.com/neutrophil.html

To feed a horse pills, you grind them up and put them in their food. In his case, I'd mix them with applesauce and grain/pellets to get him to eat them all. If he's doing sulfa, it also comes in powder packets, so you don't have to mess with pills at all, just sprinkle it on his feed. I'd still do it with sweet feed or something sticky so he eats it all.

Long term low-grade infection. Makes you really wonder what it is. Did he think maybe kidneys? I ask because of where he had pain on palpation.

learningthedance

Awwww, I hope he is feeling better soon and it's nothing serious.

Sounds like your new vet is on top of things.

We tried to hide pills in Apple slices. Didn't work after the first one (and he needed 10 total at a time).

Ended up doing just like Carol said. Ground them up and mixed with sweet feed. Our guy had never even SMELLED Sweet Feed before and it was love at first sight. He pouted when his treatment was done.

Keep us posted

becdubie

Got the pills...he has to have 110/day. 55twice a day.....
I'm sure i looked like this to the Vet

when the told me, cuz he quickly said...they are small pills.
Bubba is a finicky eater...it takes him several offerings to try something new, normally he will watch Rusty and if Rusty eats it, then he will. I just got him to start eating the senior feed I bought earlier this week to mix some herbs in. I got some sweet feed from the neigbor...he won't touch it. So I had to make the pills into a paste and give it to him through a syringe, I"m not gonna mess around, he needs this stuff in his system.
Just pray he doesn't get scours or becomes photosensitive on the medicine or we will have to stop immediately.
It must have taken a lot out of him going to the Vet on Thursday, because he was in pretty poor shape all day yesterday...didn't drink much, ate very little and just pretty much stood in one spot. his pain was noticeable enough this morning that I gave him some Bantamine which made him feel much better.

Gosh you guys, this is really, really hard. I didn't sleep much from Thursday-today. I think I'll sleep better knowing that we have a diagnosis at least. Thanks for listening everyone.....I'm glad I have you all to talk to.

Carol - DR said it is not his kidneys blood tests show kidneys are fine.
So step 1 is to tackle the infection, if he is still lame after that, then we will start woking on that.
OH..he is also Anemic....geeze you would think he came from a work camp or something. We had a tough winter, but now I have to figure out what to change so this doesn't happen to him again, or any of the other horses.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Some pills will dissolve in warm/hot water and you can make a paste of it. We've had Bien on Metformin for a long time. They are hard HARD pills. We dedicated a coffee grinder to them. It's so much easier then all the other things we tried.

I've mixed powder in honey, honey water, applesauce or molasses before. I find if I can make the paste taste better, they aren't as inclined to spit it out. I also find a chaser of apple slices, carrots or pellets help keep it in.

Good luck. I hope you see result soon...but if you don't, don't wait to call the vet and change antibiotics.

Sulfa is one of those drugs I keep on hand.

becdubie

So far so good....he has had 3 doses of the antibiotic. He is much more cheery...doesn't walk like a slug. This morning his coat looked shinier.

He doesn't like me putting icky stuff in his mouth...but he has no choice. I've just been pasting him. With 55 pills each time..there is just no way to hide it in feed..I'm sure he wouldn't touch anything I put it in. So I do mix it with a little apple sauce. Chase it with his favorite Alfalfa pellets, then we go out for a walk and he gets to eat fresh grass..

K don't laugh....(like my husband did) I hung parsley all over his stall to see if he would eat it to help his anemia...but so far he Hasn't touched it.

But I think just the fact that he is moving around more will help with that issue.

PasoBaby_CarolU

That's all good news Becky. I hope he continues progressing for you.

thelmanelle

When I had to give Jesse all his meds for 10 months, a girl taught me a trick. Take a coke and right before you give the tablets, mix the little bit of coke in the syringe to dissolve the pills and it liquefies easily and you give it to your horse quick. It worked! I kept a small plastic container and got my coke every time to dissolve those pills, so I did not have to grind them. Believe me , I broke the grinder...

But, some people will use an electric coffee bean grinder, instead of the manual labor I was doing and hence, killing myself and breaking the grinder.

So you have two easy options to help you with the pills.

becdubie

One bottle done.... Bubba is on again off again. Yesterday I ended up giving him a little bantamine he was clearly in a lot of pain again in the morning, but after that kicked in, he had a great day. Spent some time out in the small pasture with his buddies. He was even sticking his head through the fence for the fresh grass on the other side, something I haven't seen him do in weeks.

I can't say we have the problem licked...but there are small steps. He is putting weight back on and holding his own. Dr. would like to get two full bottles of the meds into him...then we will draw blood. Probably Fri/Sat.
We're giving him Doxycycline Hyclate. I guess he decided to go with someting other than a sulfa...at least I dont' think thats a sulfa drug, is it?

Clarissa

I'm really thinking enteroliths Bec. I remember reading a story years ago of quite long saga about a horse that was eventually found to have them. The owner & vets went through every known illness over a period of many months & would get better on some treatment then get worse again until the horse apparently got so bad it had constant colic so was opperated on as a last resort. They found several really big rocks along with several smaller ones.

The same magazine article told another story of another owner who wasn't so lucky & the horse died & the post mortem revealed huge enteroliths.

Can you get an xray? They show up really easily because they are so dense.

becdubie

He did mention x-ray's...but since the blood test came back showing an infection, and anemia. He want's to work on getting that first.....I'll be seeing him later this week we will discuss enterolits.
Thanks.

Clarissa

I think long term infection causes anemia anyway. The infection could be from the enteroliths causing abrasion inside of & tearing at the ends of the organs they are blocking. If they are in the tubes leading to or from organs they would cause much pain & infection when the usual contents can't travel freely.

Also when ABs are administered the horse usually picks up for a few days, but if the problem hasn't been addressed correctly the ABs will cease working in the longer term.

jmo

becdubie

Bubba had a check-up on Saturday. Dr said...Ah he looks like he is coming alive again. Which is good to hear...it's so hard for me to tell I see him every day and the improvement is in small incriments, like he will feel better, look brighter for short periods of time...the short spirts are are getting longer though. He is still very tired and just a short walk up the road tuckers him out. Although Vet said he looked like he may have lost weight suggested I add corn oil to his feed. I dont' know that he has lost any weight...think he is just more shedded out. But he's getting corn oil just the same.
Got the blood test results from Saturday back today. Blood looks better. Dr is encouraged says we are on the right track. White cell count is better and something else is improving and a few other things( I didn't have paper and pen to write down everything he said) are improving. He is not dehydrated nor anemic any longer. So that's good.

I did ask him if there is a possibility of an enteroliths, he said that is far down the list of possibilities, he has never seen one develop in a horse that has been raised in MT, though there is a valley in CA near where he went to Vet school where they were very prevelant and other parts fo the country with high mineral problems. He believes it is an abcess/bacterial infection somewhere.
I asked if he thought he might have an abcessed or rotten tooth...he said, nope I considered that but did not smell that on his breath.

.
Vet said we do need to do his teeth, but he wants him to be a lot stronger. He reminded me to be patient and said Bubba was a pretty sick boy and this has been brewing since Feb/March so it will take a while to clear it up. Likely August before he is 100%.

I SWEAR, I feel like such a bad care giver to Bubba...I felt someting was off as far back as FEB and went against my intuition and figured it was just the weather.....Somebody kick me in the head. violent1

Again, I'm so glad I finally switched vets..he told me to call him Friday morning to let him know how bubba is doing cuz he is going to be out of town all weekend and wants to make sure I have someone to contact if need be.
So we will finish out the 3rd bottle of antiabiotics this weekend. Then later next week I'll take him back up for another blood test and check up. I told DR that when this is all over I'm going to have to Bring Bubba up just for a visit and to play an eat his grass so he doesn't think that coming up there is always a bad thing....He said "any time"

becky b

He sounds like an amazing and caring vet. So glad your boy is getting better. Can't wait until I see a post from you saying he is 100% again! Keeping you and Bubba in my prayers.

becdubie

Thank you Becky!
I do believe God put horses in our lives for a reason and he does hear our prayers for them.

becdubie

I feel llike we've turned the corner. Bubba had a really good day. He is happy again! One more bottle of antiabiotics to go...just for good measure.

learningthedance

I am glad to hear that he is doing so much better and is finally on the mend. He looks so much more content.

PasoBaby_CarolU

That is totally awesome news! I'm so glad for both of you!

becky b

So happy to hear that prayers are being answered and Bubba is getting better!

becdubie

We are back where we started and I've got Vet #3 coming out tomorrow. THe new vet I started working with has gotten so busy with his "ranching" it doesnt seem he has time to follow up.

ARGGG...... I'm sitting here bawling like a baby. Bubba is in poor shape again....after having a great day Sunday and an OK day Monday...he is back to not wanting to eat or drink and hanging his head.... AND NOW....his back ankles are swelling(just puffy) intermittenly from one to the other....(probably because he doesn't want to move)

I know Clarissa....Enteroliths... That'll be the first thing I bring up.

learningthedance

I know vet #1 didn't do it, but did vet #2 ever scope him??

Would be nice to know what's going on in there.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Becky, I went through something similar with tetanus. You might change antibiotics and see how he does. Sometimes it takes several tries to get the right drug to knock it out.

((hugs))

Clarissa

Is it possible he swallowed a piece of wire or does he chew twigs & branches or rails? Sometimes horses swallow these things. Both will cause inflamatory problems which come & go as the foriegn body moves around the gut bends.

There's no doubt he has inflamation or infection. It's what's causing it that is the issue & needs discovering asap.

TrustMeNaturally

Hi there Becky,
I have had a really similar experience with my gelding, Eddie. He had colic-like symptoms, meaning he would go off his food (which NEVER happens for Eddie!) and just stand with his stomach all sucked in. His gums were tacky and very light pink in color. Usually it would last for 2-3 hours if we didn't give him bute. (phenylbutazone) Otherwise, when we did give him the bute, he would be out of it in an hour.
We've had three vets' opinions about what it could be and all have said different things. Our first vet said it was colic. Our second vet said it was ulcers. And our third vet said that it was dehydration.
Now, for every 'colic' episode (last year he got it 3 times) we have ALWAYS related it back to him not drinking enough. So, we did not go the ulcer route. Instead, I watch his drinking like a hawk. He gets loose salt twice a day, HorseQuencher on days he's not drinking much and we've even bought Gatorade and made it into popsicles for him. Since then, he has not 'coliced' and has drank more than ever.

Perhaps it can be something as easy as dehydration. If you test your hay through Equi analytical you can determine what electrolytes he's missing and if there are any gaps in his nutrition.
http://www.equi-analytical.com/

I hope that you can find an answer. There's nothing like having a sick horse and not knowing why.
~Lea
If you have any questions about testing the hay, I'd be happy to help you.

becdubie

Thanks for all your concern...here is more of the story.
After her initial consultation at my house on Friday, at first Dr. said to bring him in for X-rays on Tuesday ( Long weekend coming up ) but once she saw the blood results she consulted the senior vet at the clinic (One of the best around here I guess) they did not want to wait. I brought Bubba in to them this morning.
Together the two vets looked him over top to bottom up and down and ultra-sounded every inch of him...they found fluid in his chest cavity.
BINGO that is the infection; they called it pleuritis and are testing the fluid to see exactly what antibiotic will work. They will get those results back from the lab wed/Thursday next week. In the mean time they did a test at the clinic to give them a best guess at the antibiotic to use. Along with Penicillin, they are giving him two other types. Bubba is in the hospital for the time being.
More information about pluritis...
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/121306.htm

They say his condition is "guarded” with the scale being Poor, Fair, Guarded, Good, Excellent. So he is right in the middle and could really go either way since he has been sick for so long. Scale of 1-10 the Vet says he is up there...about an 8.

He was a trooper at the clinic and did not put up a fuss with anything they did to him; they drained between 2-3 gallons of icky infection liquid from his chest cavity.

Bubba needs your good healing energy and prayers right now.

misstux

Prayers on the way.

thebundychick

Only just stumbled upon this thread.

Prayers coming your way

Clarissa

Wow that's amazing Bec. I hope you find the reason for all that fluid. Easy to see now how each course of AB's seemed to work a bit then he got sick again.

Reminds me of avocado leaf poisoning where masses of black toxic fluid build up in the abdominal cavity & the horse can drown as it builds up past the lungs.

Fluid in the abdominal cavity can take many months to be reabsorbed or drip out through the skin under the belly.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Becky, you know he's in all our prayers. Poor baby! I think you are on the road to recovery now. Good luck.

jackspark

Lots of good energy heading Bubba's way

becdubie

Poor Bub....he is not very happy about being stuck in a concrete stall with high walls.

I hate seeing him in there too. Not to mention the fact that it has been a torrential down poor for 3 days and I can't even take him outside for a little sunshine.
He seems to be feeling ok though especially when I take him out of the stall for a little walk up and down the isle and give him a leg massage and treats.
Since it has been a holiday weekend his Vet has been away for two days. The Sr. vet at the clinic has been taking care of him. I guess they are having trouble giving him his Oral meds and the Vet himself has to adminster it by using a chain over his nose.... GRRRR....

The young girl who was there yesterday told me about the trouble...I asked her to get me an empty syringe and I'll show her how I've been doing it. I showed her you just simply bend his nose to you to the side then put the syringe to his lips slide it in.... she just said ok thank you and walked away.

I think they are not too interested in my technique.... well I guess that's the least of my worries...he won't die from that experience but he will die if he doesn't get his medicine. RIGHT??
His regular vet will be back tomorrow, I'll ask her what time I should come by and I'll give him is oral meds every day until he comes home.
They say he is eating and drinking good though.
I'll say...this is one of the rare times I'm happy the long holiday weekend is over.

jackspark

You'd think they'd be grateful for the little trick....... gotta make it easier for them, don't ya think? Glad to hear he's holdin' his own Bec

Any indication as to when he can come home?

becdubie

Nancy...I think they are going to ultrasound him again tomorrow, and drain him again if needed. The main reason he is there is to monitor the fluid build up. Once we are sure he isn't going to build up more fluid I'll bring him home. I've got in my mind Wednesday/Thursday, but the vet said probably a week, which would put it more toward Friday/Sat.

I'm sad Bubba has had the man-handling experience...this is a first for him. I raised him and he has been handled naturally his entire life.
I'll keep it into perspective though....they are working to save his life. The Vet told me in passing he can't mess around Bubba has to have his meds....he was too busy with an emergency to visit with me about it yesterday. I didn't see him today.

PasoBaby_CarolU

How is Bubba doing?

PasoBaby_CarolU

Well duh! I should read a thread first.

Becky, I'm sure he'll forget the chain. Mine hat my regular vet.but they always forgive me.

I'm sure you'll see him tomorrow.

from all of us.

learningthedance

becdubie

Wow thank you all for being there for me. Honestly....I think I'd be a basket case w/out being able to share with you all.
Carol....telling me he will probably forget the chain lifted a weight off my shoulders.
Elise....you are so sweet.

Blood results this morning were good. Dr Bares said, "Marked improvement" and he doesn't seem to be building up fluid. They will ultrasound every other day to monitor throughout the week. Hopefully he can come home at the end of the week! She didn't have too much trouble giving him meds this morning, but he was in the stock for his ultrasound. She did say...he was a different horse in the stock this morning......he is much quicker with his feet, no stumbling like on Saturday and much more alert, said she thinks she is starting to see the real Bubba.....

PasoBaby_CarolU

Aww Becky, that is great news. I think by the end of the week he'll be trailer loading real well too.

bit

Becky, do they know what caused all this? I know he has fluid in his lungs, it's an infection, but what caused it? Glad he is feeling better. That must have scared you pretty bad. Hope he gets to come home real soon.

becdubie

The fluid isn't in his lungs, it's around it, in what they are calling teh void space between his lungs and heart...basically the chest cavity.
This article explains the normal causes...
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/121306.htm
In Bubba's case he never had runny nose, coughing or respritory distress that I noticed or that the any of the vets detected. They suspected an abcess on the outside of his lungs may have burst causing the liquid to spill into that space then just went wild growing.....

Strange isn't it?

ADDED: here is another good article about what it is.
http://www.vetbook.org/wiki/horse/index.php/Pleuropneumonia

misstux

I am so glad to read that Bubba finally seems to be on the mend. Continued prayers.

becdubie

Well as of this morning Bub is still at the clinic. They still consider him in Guarded condition and the results from the lab had not come back on the culture from the liquid in him yet. After they get that back they can target the infection and hopefully with only one oral antiabiotic...then he can come home. Right now they are giving him several injectables twice a day. Pluse Ranitidine which is effective for ulcers and a fraction of the cost of Ulcer or Gastrogard. Blood work though is showing improvement.

Here is the good news. Bubba is eating well...they noticed that his appetite seemed much better every day after I came to take him out for a walk and bites of grass...so the barn tendant who does the general care of the horses day to day there went a pulled a whole bunch of grass and is mixing it with his hay. She is so nice and knows how much I love him. I brought them a bag of the nutrena senior feed I had been giving him and he snarfs that down....
Yesterday they ultrasounded his chest again...they have been watching a small pocket of fluid and had plans to drain it yesterday....but.....It appears to be gone!!!!

So yesterday afternoon when I showed up there was a whole lot of commotion in the arena part of the barn lots of squeeling and other noises...

This vet specializes in equine reproduction...so yep that's what was goin on. Bubba was pretty keyed up...when I took him out for his walk...very concerned about what was going on in the barn....I haven't see this much energy out of him in a long time..... I had to get his attention with some fast YOYO's several times until things quieted down in the barn. So steady improvement and quite a learning experience....

I dont' even want to add up the total cost...the board at the clinic alone is $25.00/day he's been there a week.......scouting around for a second job so I can pay it off as quickly as possible. Thank goodness for carecredit.

jackspark

Roger that, Truman's surgery was $3,300 and carecredit was the only way that was happenin'

Glad to hear Hubba Bubba is doing so well, can't wait for the day you can take him home healthy.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Oh Becky...((HUGS)) you must be tearing yourself to shreds with worry. All my best horse vibes heading his way. I hope they find the cause soon. If not, I'd see about about getting the shots and meds and doing it at home until they find the cause.

becdubie

Bub has been off meds since Sunday to see what happens. I think they drained a small pocket of fluid yesterday to send to the lab. Thinking that if he has been off AB's for a couple days the lab might be able to grow someting and pinpoint what the infection is/was, and find the right oral AB to send him home.
He really is much better IMO....still very skinny but eating a lot finally. If Dr doesn't call me today I'll give her a call for an update.

here are a couple pictures from yesterday's grazing walk. I've been taking him out everyday. He is getting a bit playful....messing with his water bucket in his stall...just swinging it around to make noise. He is bored...this is his first stalled experience.

Still so skinny

Nancy...

Clarissa

Bec is it at all possible he had access to some sort of weed? Many weeds will cause fluid build up, sort of only half poisoning.

becdubie

Not likely since this started in the dead of winter when everything was dormant, frozen and covered in snow. I do walk the property and keep a close eye out for known poison weeds.(I pull up loco weed every spring)

The vet asked me if I vaccinated against strangles....I do not. That is a possible cause. She called it bastard strangles ....
I found this information about Bastard strangles.

Clarissa

The type of strangles we have over here has big lumps or swollen glands behind the jaw at the throat latch & they are easy to see & feel. The swollen glands make breathing difficult & the horses prefer to hang their heads like your article says. They cough a lot due to mucus & constriction & of course there is the ubiquitous nasal discharge.

pale

becdubie

I brought my boy home yesterday. Had a long talk with the vet. The lab has been unable to grow anything aerobically the anaerobic culture results have not come back yet.
They are still quite concerned since they don't know what it is. But since Bubba is getting pretty sore from the injections, and he is acting like he feels better we're putting him on the sulfa drug until they get the anerobic culture results back-latest Monday.
White Blood count is normal Red is at 28, normal or "good" is 30, he is eating really good. The vet was a bit aprehensive about sending him home and taking him off the injectables, but he really does need a break from being a pin cusion for a day or two. Plus I told her that I could be spending that $25/day on medicine. She was clear...said she doesn't think we are out of the woods yet...we will need to watch him closely and bring him in every 4-5 days to check fo fluid build-up.

The internest she has been consulting with recommends putting him on Chloramphenicol this is the oral drug he uses when he can't identify the culprit like in this case. There are some concerns with that drug...it is very bad for humans...so I would have to wear gloves and mask when preparing and giving it to him, and it would have to be given for a month or two costing me another couple grand!!! THAT WILL BE VERY HARD to afford.

. We will make a decision about that come Monday. If he starts to go down hill again....I guess that's what we will have to do.

I just couldn't leave him in that concrete high sided stall where he couldn't even see outside anymore. He was starting to get pretty stiff from standing around all the time. He is so happy to be home and he is really quite bright and chipper - so far. Happy to be next to his buddies.
I'll be watching him like a hawk all weekend....

bit

Becky, are you giving him pro biotics? Man, I'm so sad this lovely horse, and you are going through this. This is like horsey, mystery diagnosis. I bet just coming home will help him a lot.

jackspark

Oh Becky, I hope for the best! Glad he has a chance to come home for a visit, so good for you both!

I understand the cost issue, hard to put a price on a family member. Please give a post or two over the weekend to let us know how he seems

becdubie

Yes we have him on Fast track probios. Plus the senior feed he has been eating has pre and probios in them.

Thanks ladies. It was so nice to see him out in the barn this morning and see that he ate all his food from last night. He was so happy to be moving around last night, he just kept walking in and out of the barn stall out to the open space....staring out at the hills and messing with his buddies over the fence. He would love to get out there and play, but I need to keep him somewhat quiet so he doesn't over-due it.

jackspark

How about a pic of the guy?

learningthedance

Becky, I think you were right in bringing him home to be with you. Just for his mental well being alone (and yours!!) it will be more positive for healing. Especially, since you will still be working closely with your vet. Sounds like he needed the break and much needed rest from the confinement. I don't understand why more facilities that treat horses aren't set up better to deal with the mental stresses they face being stalled. It would be enough to make a healthy horse sick, but even more stressful on a an already sick horse that wasn't used to this confinement and isolation.

He is truly blessed to have you in his corner and I am sure he MUCH happier to be home with you!!

I hope they find an answer and he continues to fight this off.

Thanks for keeping us posted.

Sending lots of ((((hugs))) your way.

becdubie

He's having a good weekend so far. Here is a video of Bubba out for a little grazing time with Angel today. After weeks of him not wanting to move more than 4 steps at a time even when grazing, this is very promising.
Praying he continues to improve....
http://s345.photobucket.com/album...ion=view&current=DSCF1249.mp4

jackspark

He looks fabulous and that nice little canter...... sweet for you both to spend some time. When does he have to return to solitary confinement?

CoolsLadyInRed

becdubie

Well, keep the good vibes coming. SOMETHING is working. I took him to the vet for a check-up today. There is still a small pocket of fluid in his chest, not enough to drain and it doesn't seem to be building...so that's good. They drew blood - hoping for good results.
Everyone at the clinic remarked at how good he looked, shiny and happy. He has gained about 50 lbs since they first saw him.

Dr say's he is still in guarded condition, the lab was unable to grow anything with the cultures sent last week so he is on a broad spectrum AB(Sulfa)...we aren't out of the woods yet

...she wants no fluid build up and sustained good blood results for several months. I've added Echinacea to his feed and am thinking about trying to add some garlic. Trying everthing to help his immune system.

So we will stay the course and keep working on his strength, adding weight, praying. As of right now he is a happy active horse.... hello1

Copious_Amour

Is it possible he has like some weird parasite that's eating away at him that the Dr's can't find/won't show up on tests? I know all sorts of weird things happen on the tv show Monsters Inside Me/Eaten Alive and no one ever knows what Tue cause is until they somehow realize it is some bizarre, rare parasite...

becdubie

I suppose anything is possible........ hopefully that's not what it is.

Dr just called me...she is concerned about blood results. White count is still normal but Down, or Up(which ever is bad)...from last time. Red count is down... Fibrin is down(that is good cuz if it was up it would show increased inflammation)

What a rollercoaster.... she wants to see him on Monday afternoon. If counts are worse. we will need to switch drugs....thinking I'll have to go for the really expensive one she mentioned last week......

I'll be having a big sale here pretty soon....selling everything not nailed down....watch for parelli videos and stuff up for sale soon!!!!!

CoolsLadyInRed

Praying Becky! so hoping he won't have to start that expensive med.
thanks for the update.

jackspark

Hoping for the best Becky!

whudson

Well wishes and positive energy sent your way. Hoping for a full recovery

He's beautiful

becdubie

Hey....how do I look now? http://s345.photobucket.com/album...H%20SHARE/Bub%20feeling%20Better/
OMGoodness....I've learned a lot.....
#1 thing I learned....if I think something is wrong....I need to trust my instincts....I knew in mid Feb that something was up with him....but didn't take action as soon as I should have...tried to talk myself into saying it was just a tough winter on my boy.... So sorry Bubba! Vet is very happy...he will be on AB for another two weeks, then a final check-up...then I think we're good to go. !!!! Thank you all for listening to me...giving me tips, encouraging me and helping me through this. You're the best group of friends I've had since High school..... and I mean that!!

It's tough for me to bond with people.

misstux

What awesome news about Bubba! For some reason the pics are taking forever to load, so I can't comment about how good he looks, but I KNOW he looks great.

thebundychick

yipeee!!!

Such good news!!!!!!!!!!!

Clarissa

So Bec do you actually KNOW yet what was wrong with Bubba?
I would be a tad reserved in saying he’s better until about 2wks after he comes off the AB’s but he is certainly looking much brighter & that's a huge improvement.

Here's hoping

becdubie

We're staying positivie but cautious for sure. I take his temp every day.

I get vibes from him that I believe are telling me that he has kicked it and appreciates me sticking it out with him. This experience has brought the two of us close together.

To answer your question Clarissa....NO, unfortunately they were never able to grow anything so do not know exactly what the infection was. We just know it was some kind of nasty infection, perhaps bacterial or fungal....(fungal is rare around here, but not unheard of)

sebocat

How's your boy doing?

becdubie

OH thanks for asking Suz.
Bubba is doing superb he is back to being the clown of the herd. We're working on re-gaining muscle now. He gets to go out with everybody else for 5-6 hrs most days for grazing I'll start doing some hill therapy to build up his back and HQ (that's where he lost most his muscle)

I take him to the Vet for a check-up this afternoon. I believe we will probably take him off Antiabiotics .... Then I'll be a basket case taking his temp every 15 minutes for the next couple weeks until we know he won't have a relapse.

misstux

Thanks for the update. It's wonderful to hear that he is doing so well.

becdubie

Well we're still on AB's for 2 more weeks.. The Vet wants to keep him on them for a full 60 days just to be sure.......
But other than that Bubba is still doing fine, I may even take a little bareback ride on him this weekend! Vet say's he's strong enough for some light workouts.

PasoBaby_CarolU

That's wonderful Becky. Don't be too shocked at the time on ABs, I've known three people now that have spent months of them IV from spider bites. There are some nasty organisms out there.

Give him a ((HUG)) from all of us.

sebocat

Great news! Glad he's going to be OK, what an ordeal you've been through!

becdubie

Went in for a check up yesterday. No fluid in the chest cavity...NONE AT ALL!!!!!

They are amazed at how good he looks.

She gave me the go a head to start riding him a little but cautioned me that he will probably never be a fast running barrel or performance horse. LOL!!!! FINE WITH ME. There could be scarring on his lungs reducing his breathing capacity, which makes me sad

.. This ordeal probably shortened his lifespan. She said probably short leisurly trail rids.
So we're still on antiabiotics though...going to finish the bottle I have about 3 more weeks then wait 2 weeks and go back for another check-up. The Vet is not being too careful about this, she really cares and Bubba is starting to get to know her, he actually likes her I think.

wav

misstux

Oh what wonderful news! Thanks for the update

PasoBaby_CarolU

That is great news. I am sure he'll be glad to have a little change of pace. She sounds like a wonderful vet.

CoolsLadyInRed

That is great to hear Becky!!!

Thanks for the update. What a great vet you have.