Buck

karmikacres · Buck

More soon, but just wanted to throw out a quick Buck is all of that and a bag of chips.

Parelli has the concepts, but nothing close the finished product. Buck is 100% correct that PNH riding is causing lame horses.

4 days with Buck was more valuable than the last 5 years with PNH....

Oh, we held our own, so all of the Parelli stuff is not useless, but it does have some really big shortcomings.

The facility in Bay Harbor Michigan is the nicest I have ever seen. Really nice folks also.

Mike

PasoBaby_CarolU

Cool. Can't wait to hear more. I think Buck is a lot like learning dressage, only western! LOL

I had no idea you guys wanted to become ropers..beter watch it, the ones I know are addicted.

PasoBaby_CarolU · Re: Buck

cynthia walter · Lame horse

How is PNH causung lame horse and can you please explain. Thanks

cynthia peterson

Mike and Karen, love the pics! And do tell us more!

After going to a Buck clinic this month I so agree! Buck is like being in the College Class with the Professor that wrote the book on the Subject. It only made Parelli seem more "lesser" in every way possible. Not that Pat didn;t get some of the concepts Buck was taught by Tom & Ray. But Buck was the their "chosen" student, the one they spent the time on b/c they seen the talent and mind Buck had. What Pat may have learned from them, he sometimes didn't get right, and then Linda put her spin on it (many times all wrong)

Seeing Buck in a clinic was so much more then his DVDs. He has the best seat of anyone I have ever seen. There were quite a few Parelli students at my Buck Clinic too, and the flaws in Parelli could be seen a mile away. Buck certainly mentioned some things he didn't like about Parelli without mentioning the Parelli name. Like my Mom said, if you play the game, you get the name. And Parelli sure has "the name" on certain things. Buck isn't the only one pointing these things out.

Let me point out Mike and Karen are not just somebody who "played" at Parelli. They put a lot of money and time in Parelli, more then most people. It's not like they don't know a thing or two about the difference between Buck and Pat, because they have done the work to find out.

karmikacres

First and foremost, the amount of freestyle riding and groundwork PNH encourages is just devastating to the horse. Buck starts collection within the first few rides on a colt. His groundwork also focuses on finding a soft feel.

Parelli's concept of flexion is off the mark also, as it focuses entirely on vertical flexion and makes no reference to elevating the poll to unlock the shoulders. I believe this is where all the rotated shoulders in Parelli land have come from, but they will sell you a saddle and pad to fix it.

They have also really screwed us up by riding in rope halters and hackamores. It is just about impossible to get correct lateral flexion in these devices, it really takes a snaffle to do it right. The head must be elevated, and remain vertical on both planes of rotation. This is where pnh has really let us down, The nose must not just come around for flexion. Pulling from underneath, as in a halter, encourages twist, not proper rotation. They will sell you a cradle bridle to fix this.

Don't even get me started on the rein positions. Needles to say, they are close, but not entirely effective.

Buck starts out teaching very advanced things right off the bat. PNH has dumbed horsemanship down to the point of being totally ineffective.
Pat appears to have been around the masters enough to get the concepts, but not the finish.

Pat was definitely not a chosen student of Tom or Ray, and is not respected at all by the current master horsemen.

I got engagement from Yonex on the second day of the clinic that I have been trying to find for the last 7 years with Parelli. That is enough proof for me.

Dr. Deb says the main reason we ride is to gymnasticize the horse. Anything else is promoting lameness.

Mike

PasoBaby_CarolU

I don't think anyone is questioning that Buck is a next step beyond Parelli for people who want 'Advanced Western' or have a working ranch horse. No one is questioning Buck's expertise in this area, or Mike and Karen's obvious loyalty.

I do question that statement about lameness. How does PNH make horses lame? Why PNH and not other NH clinician methods? What exactly makes them lame?

There are over 22,000 horses trained in PNH. That is a lot of evidence one way or the other. I don't believe I've seen what Buck is talking about, and so I have to wonder.

I imagine whatever the answers to those questions are, then I'd probably have to disagree. I can't think of anything PNH teaches that CAUSES lameness. Now, if Buck had stated that PNH doesn't teach people to move their horses in a bio-mechanically correct frame early enough, or if he stated that time spent Circling could better be spent working the horse in frame, then I could see his point, even if I didn't change what I do or don't do with my horses.

But "lame"?? No.

My personal belief is "each to their own." If people want to WORK their horse all the time, direct every step, then that is fine for them and their horse. If people want to PLAY with their horse, maybe never even get on the horse if they don't want to (who rides Minis?), that is fine too.

There is no reason for one school of horsemanship to degenerate another. It really lowers my opinion of clinicians who do this.

You know what is sad, is that while these egos fight over which is better, millions of horses suffer because MOST riders don't do ANY improvement. They don't study, they don't work with their horses, they just get on and ride - with big honking bits, ill fitting saddles, spurs to go, and jerks to stop.

If they really cared about horses they'd quit fighting over students and go out and find ways to reach the non-students.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Buck and Dr. Deb are welcome to their opinions, but I think I'll still ride all my endless hours trail riding FREESTYLE because it is more comfortable for my horse then making them hold their head in and up and be collected for hours on end. You know, when I force Rosie into "frame" for dressage, she spends 10 minutes shaking her head to readjust her neck and get it relaxed again. My chiropractor pointed this out to me, and I had no idea I was HURTING her by making her hold her head in!

You know I lived on a working ranch, my old horse was ridden western "Freestyle" for 25 years, thousands of miles. She is buried in my back yard. The only times in all those years she was lame were after stepping on a nail and then after getting bit by a pig.

I find statements like those pretty irresponsible in the face of so much evidence to the contrary. Makes me think a lot less of both of them.

PasoBaby_CarolU

And just to clarify, I'm not saying working the horse in collection or doing proper flexing is wrong, or isn't good for the horse. Or that Dr. Deb and Buck methods don't work or that they aren't the best at what they do.

I'm just saying that riding in correct frame ONLY all the time is not good for the horse either...unless you only ride an hour a day exercising the horse. Can you imagine being forced into "perfect posture" all day long?

I also don't think freestyle is bad for horses or makes them lame UNLESS they have a pretty poor rider. I'm sorry, but I ride with HUNDREDS of horses in BCHU and I see ALL freestyle and no lameness, except for maybe some people who seem determined to ride barefoot over rocks regardless of if their horse has the feet for it or not.

Sorry, I just don't believe PNH makes horses lame.

becdubie

Very good observations, and thanks for your input Carol, I was wondering how PNH riding caused lameness.

ya know I audited a RichardWinters clinic last weekend and sort of come away thinking...geeze....PNH doesn't push their students into more advanced stuff like he did at his clinc, at first thinking that was a flaw in the PNH clinics I attended. But after I put some thought into it and read more of RW's book I realized that RW's goal is to produce reined cow horses and win competitions. The difference in his clinic and the Thompson PNH clinics I've attended is that RW did not really take into consideration each riders aspirations...he taught them all the same and did not consider really what they wanted out of their relationship with their horse...in fact he didn't really consider the horse much at all, just in what the rider should get from the horse.
So my point is that I think the draw to specific clinicians will depend on what the student is wanting to accomplish. I remain thankful to PNH for all I learned and how nice my relationship is with my horses to this day. I probably would not still have Rusty, let alone be riding him if I did not find a way to help him become more confident. Parelli taught us that.
I for one will probably never want to ride collected...freestyle is my style in pretty much everything I do. I don't want to micromanage or be micromanaged. I grew up freestyle trail riding and not one of our horses were lame.

karmikacres

First, their concept of collection is wrong, it does not focus on elevation. Second, they need to be doing more collection earlier on.

How many of those horses you ride freestyle with have you seen trot in a small circle?

Mike

karmikacres

becdubie

I've always wondered, and since I don't compete, have never done dressage etc.....Is there another reason to "collect" my horse other than having him look a specific way to be judged in a competition?

Please don't think I'm putting down anyone who wants to compete, that is certianly not my intent. In fact I love to watch jumping, eventing, dressage and I love how a western pleasure horse looks in competition. I'm just wondering...is there another reason to have my horse trot in small circles? (well other than if I need to get him out of a RB situation or something along that line).

karmikacres

Buck doesn't single Parelli out by saying THEY are making all their horses lame. I don't don't think Mike is suggesting you ride your horse in collection 100% of the time. The point is when you do - do it correctly. Parelli didn't get us there.

Carol, you clearly have your ideas and loyalties too. I'm glad you don't have any lame horses. Maybe we didn't "get" what Pat was trying to teach but we are firm believers that if we had known what we know now we would have left Parelli a LONG time ago and not looked back.

Karen

PasoBaby_CarolU

cheerios · Re: Buck

ElaineC

I agree with Mike on this one. Parelli taught riding, and many of their practices, causes unsound horses. Unfortunately, most people can't recognize an unsound horse until its hopping around on 3 legs.

I'm hoping Mike and Karen aren't so put off at this point that they aren't willing to share more. I'm seriously hoping for some clinic notes and more information, without anyone jumping on them.

For those who want an example: Hindquarter disengagement - done the "Parelli" way not only does NOT disengage the hindquarters, it encourages a sloppy back end and causes unneccessary torsion on the front end. I know this has been discussed at length already on this forum, so its worth searching for.

I'm hoping this thread stays on the original topic, which is learning more about horses and horsemanship from someone who IS the real deal, and not just in it for the money.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Elaine, I am totally with you...I would like to learn more of what Mike and Karen learned at their clinic...I just would like to learn it without trashing PNH and all our horses in the process. I study Buck, I study Deb. I study Larry, and Carolyn, and Klaus and Dennis, Pat and Linda. I'd like to study and learn more...but I'm not going to throw everything I've learned to date in the trash just because the new Guru tells me to.

I just got back from a 4-hour trail ride in the beautiful mountains on my not-lame horse. I rode her freestyle the entire time without a bit and she enjoyed the ride as much as I did. We even moved cows off our trail, safely and soundly. I rode with another Parelli L3 horse, who is also sound and also ridden freestyle all day.

Last weekend we did dressage on these horses. A week before that I showed my horse. I don't appreciate someone who has never even seen my horses say they are lame. Especially considering the people saying this have never "done Parelli".

karmikacres

Consider me put off. Mike can speak for himself. Happy trails.

Karen

PasoBaby_CarolU

Well, thanks for the report.

I guess I'll stick to the DVDs. I don't think the clinics are for me or my horses.

AlythLong

I am very disappointed. I thought at last we had a forum where we could discuss various aspects of natural horsemanship and the different techniques and attitudes without any problems. It seems not.

I am interested in Bucks teachings, and I have enjoyed reading his books. I doubt if I will ever get to one of his clinics, even if he comes to NZ, for various reasons. I am interested in reading others opinions of their experiences of his, and other clinicians, clinics. It is a crying shame that we cannot discuss things without criticising other methods, and that infers the people who follow those methods.

I have been "doing Parelli" for about 12 years now and still follow the original teachings, I started dropping out with the "Linda levels". I enjoy riding freestyle and have no wish to ride "finesse" or "collected"....(I am not secure enough in my seat for that type of riding to be comfortable for my horses)....Nor are my horses lame!!!! My feeling is that you can ride "in a frame" for short periods of time - like people dance for short periods of time - but most "work" should be relaxed and enjoyable for both parties. Much like taking a stroll, or a brisk walk......

I am interested to learn what I am doing wrong - lateral flexion and hq disengagement have been mentioned.....and why. Neither activity seems to have been a problem for either me or my horses.....

It seems we all need to step back, take a deep breath and try not to take things personally!! I do hope Mike and Karen continue to post here. Your experience of PNH and your obvious ability to change and improve are valuable assets to enable us to continue learning. Carol, your input is equally valuable, often giving us the "opposing view". Wouldn't the world be a dreary place if we were all the same??!!

Happy horsing everyone.

Alyth

PasoBaby_CarolU

You know, I have several Buck DVDs and a book. I like and apply most of what I learn from them. Just like any other clinician or trainer, I take what I can use with my horses, what will help them, and leave the rest behind. Could I do things differently?..yes. Would it be better for my horses? I believe that depends on who defines "better." I don't want to manage every footfall, I don't want to have to. I am similar to you Alyth, I like to do applied work part of the time, but the rest of the time I like to relax and enjoy my horses, and have them be relaxed and enjoy our time together. Regardless of what anyone says, I am going to continue putting the relationship first.

I would really like to learn more and hear from people who attend Buck's clinics that can discuss the material without first trashing PNH. We have a forum here for people upset with Parelli, Inc. I hoped that setting one area aside for this would allow people to vent, get it out of their system, and keep it from clouding the rest of the forum. THIS section of the forum is for discussing other methods and learning new things, NOT for trashing everyone else, and that includes PNH. What I got from Mike's posts were that Buck spent the entire weekend telling everyone what was wrong with their horses and other NH trainers. If that's what he does at his clinics, then I would not want to attend a weekend hearing that. I can read all the negativity I want, right here, for free.

I disagree with your statement Elaine. I don't believe doing PNH, or any other NH, makes horses unsound. I am a college trained judge (years ago) and do know a bit about soundness, and it doesn't take a horse on three legs.

Is there something about studying Buck that makes people say such things? I find it all very offensive.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I get complements on my horses from other clinicians, trainers, instructors...not disparaging remarks. I can't tell you how often people see my Parelli halter and start in on all the things they hate about Parelli. With few exceptions, the people saying it has never actually studied the program. I let my horses give my answers and by the end of the day, the same people are full of complements.

We started dressage lessons this spring and our L3 horses have flown through the program since we've already done most of the moves, and most importantly, we knew and understood focus and have horses that are accustomed to working in hand with a soft feel. PNH can't be that wrong and bad for our horses if we are 70% there in a program we've never done before. Yes, we are learning to be more clear in our requests and to be more firm in our expectations, but most of it was there already. So, how can PNH be so bad if you get this out of the program?

Elaine, I remember those discussions on hip disengagements, and if you recall, I didn't participate. To be honest, I do more disengagements with Buck's ground work DVD then I did with Parelli. My horses don't disengage on the circle, but just turn come in. If you spent too much time doing disengagements and lamed your horse, is that your fault or the fault of PNH. I was taught in PNH not to be a drill sergeant.

I really would like to have this thread to be a learning experience. Let us discuss other methods without trashing the program that brought us all here in the first place. There are many members here still doing PNH, and this forum is for them too.

Finally, remember that what is "better" is one person's opinion. You might or might not share it, but that doesn't make it true for everyone.

kristie

PasoBaby_CarolU

Thank you Kristie.

becdubie

Ok hopefully we have that out of our systems.....
I am curious....does Buck ALWAYS ride collected? Surley he takes relaxed tail rides with his horses sometimes. I don't know anything about the competition world and I realize that many clinic participants go to his and other clincs to learn how to do someting better for whatever competition they are in.
So back to a question I had back on page 1.

merle

kristie

ElaineC

Huhn. Now I'm being attacked. That gives me warm and fuzzies.

Carol, I have not, nor ever will lame a horse. I'm not stupid enough to follow things blindly, and after decades of being a pro in the horse industry, I think at this point I know a thing or two. You may have been a judge, but horses put food on my table and a roof over my head as my sole source of income for many, many years.

All I did was agree with Mike's statement.

I did NOT read all the negativity into the post that you have.

You seem to be fine attacking certain people, of which I am one, but not others. You attack with far more energy than anyone in this thread has attacked PNH. In fact, the people you are attacking have been more supportive of PNH over the long term than most.

Carol, you have just shut down a pile of learning and information sharing. What a shame.

kristie

merle

Hi Kristie
Thanks for the information. It looks like Buck does a lot of what I had learned from ANRC.

How does Buck elevate the head during lateral flexion? Do you know if there are any youtube videos showing that?

ANRC has three levels - beginner, intermediate and advanced. The levels apply to the horse and also the rider. For example, a leading rein is used on a beginner horse or with a beginner rider. An intermediate rider with an intermediate horse would use a direct rein. An advanced rider with a beginner horse would use a leading rein. For the most part I do not use a leading rein with my horse or mule, but do use it when I am riding less experienced horses.

Thanks, Lori

PasoBaby_CarolU

Thank you Kristie, your descriptions are very clear.

I never felt like with Parelli that you learned any particular way to flex or were taught a particular head position you were trying to achieve. We were taught to flex just to flex and to set up for a one-rein stop. I noticed this mostly because I've probably been taught a dozen different ways to flex the neck for different muscle groups as it's very important in the training of Paso Finos, so it is stressed.

When Jamie was here we discussed some of this and he gave me some ideas that instead of focusing on just head position and muscle groups, to focus on flexing different vertebra in the neck. I have added this to my warm ups with my horses and I think the additional stretches really help the horses to be more flexible throughout their body.

I also would be interested in what Buck teaches for flexing.

kristie

I haven't seen any youtube videos of it yet, but basically step 1 is a raising of the neck kind of like Karen R. teaches.

Buck talks about horses will get (I think) 3 inches taller at the withers when they do this. He said not all horses need this step because some naturally carry their poll higher than their withers. It's just something to be aware of. When he was teaching the Foundation class this he said some people may be able to go on to step 2 right away.

There were some horses that bent their heads around immediately dropping their polls below their withers. He had those people wait for the horse to even think about raising it's head and release for just that step. It is that important to him. And you couldn't use your reins to try to pull the head up. You just had to sit and wait..........I know that had to be hard!

Edit to add: Your description of the beginner to advanced rein aid makes a lot of sense. I guess it's something I haven't even thought of until I saw someone demonstrate it.

AlythLong

Buck talks about horses will get (I think) 3 inches taller at the withers when they do this. He said not all horses need this step because some naturally carry their poll higher than their withers. It's just something to be aware of. When he was teaching the Foundation class this he said some people may be able to go on to step 2 right away.

Quote not done properly!!

That is so interesting! I have been worried about all these posts criticising lateral flexion and talking about the head being low - I couldn't understand it as my horses heads are naturally carried quite high. I guess it is a "Western Pleasure" thing? Having the head low? I have never ridden or even studied western riding so I wasn't aware of what could be a problem!!!

It does make me more aware though, how easily posts are misunderstood. It seems that many of Bucks clinics are aimed at western riding - roping, cow work etc. But this has no relevance for me!! So of course I cannot understand what is meant if it isn't spelled out in simple letters!!

Thanks Kristie!

Alyth

kristie

It is hard to describe Alyth.

I'm glad you got the point about not all horses needing to elevate first. I have a gaited-bred horse that naturally carries his head VERY high. If I throw him off balance though, I can cause him to drop his head. See below.

A lot of trainers teach flexing and have the horse bring their head around to the foot (assuming you are sitting in the saddle). It throws the horse off balance. To compensate they drop their poll below their withers, throw the weight to the outside shoulder and tip their head so the ears are not level. You have compromised your horse physically, mentally and emotionally at this point (my interpretation).

This will be hard to explain, but basically he wants the head to bend around maybe perpendicular to the body. If the horses body were on a clock with the head facing 12:00 and the tail facing 6:00, then the head would maybe only come around to face 9:00 at the most. It's not a cranking around of the neck. As the horse progresses in education the flexion becomes less = more refined.

In regards to the 3 inches taller comment....my horse gave me a gift the weekend after that clinic. I had been thinking about all the things I had heard and was sitting out in the pasture with her one morning when she stretched. She raised her neck, tucked her chin, curled her loins, and I got to see her grow taller! Niki is not a flashy horse, but she was indescribably beautiful at that moment. I needed that picture!

karmikacres

AlythLong

That's interesting Mike. And did they find Bucks teaching relevant? In what way did they differ from what you were doing? I realise many things are basic to all disciplines but some things aren't!! Or some things are relevant at different stages.

What I am thinking about at the moment is the difference between a horse "following a feel" and "holding a feel". Whether it is possible for the horse to do both.....and if so how do I communicate which I want...!! Any thoughts on that?

Thanks.

Alyth

Shelby

retropony

I don't post too often, but I do have a mare that I ride in dressage and also ride with primarily Brent Graef, Mark Rashid, and I've ridden her with Bryan Neubert as well. My answer to your question regarding feel would be it is about the intent you send down the reins; are you sending a forward energy or a backwards energy through the reins? A short rein is not the same as a tight rein. It is about feel and riding your whole horse, not a headset or frame. The float in the rein comes from self carriage and a softness that comes from inside the horse, whether you're riding dressage or riding western. She has no problem going back and forth between the disciplines. She is currently working in the hackamore as well. A horse is a horse. I also don't buy into the different snaffles for contact/no contact. I ride in the simplest bit that fits my horse's mouth conformation; skinny or fat, one link or two, whatever, not for what type of tack I'm wearing. Buck's teaching is very relevant to students of classical riding.

bit

Both in Brent Graef's clinic, as well. It was never about western or english. It was all about feel, timing, and foot fall-and partnership. It had nothing to do with what kind of saddle you rode in. Horsemanship is horsemanship.

Shelby

karmikacres

I felt the beginnings of canter pirouettes several times during the clinic. I bet you could use those in an english saddle

Mike

AlythLong

LOL Mike - so what is the difference between a pirouette and a spin??!! Not that I am doing either.....yet!!!!

merle

PasoBaby_CarolU

Niek

Appart from the fact that good horsemanship is good horsemanship regardless of dicipline...

From an historical point of view.. the raising of the neck and especially the base of the neck is a Classical French thing, its a Baucheristic approach to be more exact... So this especially is of interest to dressage riders

..

The idea has nothing to do with force... Altough when reading Bauchers 2nd manner you get a different feeling.. (It needs to be read with the correct frame of mind that puts it in the correct historical time..)

You communicate to the horse to hold his own neck at a level where the corrections you make for balance can be way way smaller..

Buck is also closer to the French school than others because he also feels he needs to directly from the start needs to adress balance just as wel as impulsion...

cynthia peterson

Well, now, lest we not forget Parelli does have a teaching of collection (headset) Remember the "monkey seat?" I know as a fact PP were still teaching this two or three years ago. Then complaints come in, and they refigured on that. It is in the Old Levels. And of course Pat has the hold/hot potatoe and release deal, of which we all know doesn't work either. Pat also is seen to ride off his seat, which is pretty silly, as even on Magic he thumps away so hard that even WAZ called him on it. Then, let's not over look that nervous rein fiddling Pat does with the reins of every horse he is on. This has always drove me insane, as well as his horses no doubt.

becdubie

PasoBaby_CarolU

Cyndy, Pat also taught Soft Feel at the beginning of the Old Level 3, in fact there was a great deal on it and it was part of the test. When I went through L3 with Margaret we did a lot of work on collection, trotting small circles, bending, identifying feet, singling out and affecting specific feet, turning on specific feet, stepping under, half-passing, shoulders over, etc.

To be totally honest, when ya'll get going on and on about how all this stuff isn't in PNH and it's so horrible for the horse, I have to wonder if everyone else took a different course then I did. I certainly learned it all in Level 3. Granted, they've taken a lot of stuff out of Level 3, but the Finesse stuff they left in and expanded on.

karmikacres

Actually finesse now resides solely in L4.

Yes, they talked about soft feel, but never mentioned elevation, ever.

Mike

PasoBaby_CarolU

No, I don't recall any work on elevation, but then I have naturally elevated horses and work in that direction myself.

What I will say was bad with PNH for my horses was too much Freestyle and Carrot stick riding messed up my gait. While Zar would still gait, Rosie would trot with too much and I'd have to go back to collection to get her gait back. I finally made myself a rule that she'd have to Freestyle in gait, but I couldn't control gait with the carrot sticks, so we'd trot then. What I got out of carrot stick riding that has really helped is that you really develop your leg and weight cues there and learn to ride with focus.

When learning dressage, it is all right there, all I have to do is remember to do it.

PasoBaby_CarolU

BTW Mike, since this thread is supposed to be about your clinic with Buck and you brought up elevation, would you elaborate on why Buck feels it is so important, and the flexing above the withers, etc.? I see a lot of 'daisy sniffers' out there and it seems a very natural way for QH's and Paints to carry themselves. I know that the exaggerated lowness in Western Pleasure causes shoulder and neck problems, but what is wrong with a natural carriage for these horses?

cynthia peterson

Yes, Mike, tell her...

Carol, monkey riding was just a way of holding for a frame, and there is no way you would get it hunched over like a monkey

That was in the Old Levels. And by the way, the Old Levels were way far better then the New Levels IMO. They also reflect Pat's teachings first hand, the true essence of what Pat knew about collection. The soft feel also was faulty. Pat would hold for a soft feel then you were suppose to throw the reins away like you touched a "hot potato." That was un correct way to do it. Buck, (and every other great trainer I have seen) would have you hold and release gently, not throw the reins away. If you throw the reins away it is like giving the feel to the horse of disconnection. I don't remember anything about the correct (no tipping ears, both sides the same) feel, with no bracing, even a tiny bit. And most certainly Parelli doesn't have a clue about vertical flexion CORRECTLY. What I have seen of Pat;s advanced riding, even now, is very far from the mark. I suspect you, Carol and others, may have advanced because you already knew more before Parelli, or your Parelli Pro did.

Now, the getting to the feet. Pat mentioned it. If it was taught, then you must have had a very good Parelli Pro, because few taught it. I have also seen Pat personally flub up where the feet are, so I think that is not really his best feature.

Monkey riding in the old Levels was a few years ago, I could point out Pat has been taught by WAZ and he may have learned a few things since then. But, I'm just not seeing that much difference. I still am confounded by Pat's heavy seat (IMO if he thinks he is riding by his seat like Ray and Buck, then he didn't get the part of getting lighter and lighter with the aids. Even WAZ called him on that seat when riding Magic!) His fiddling hands on the reins is got to drive any horse crazy, it sure does me! IMO it is a nervous habit he should have shook for the sake of the horse.

PasoBaby_CarolU

I remember Monkey riding. They took it out of the program before I got to that part. To me, it was the same thing as putting a horse in a surcingle or draw reins to force it into frame. Since there are still most trainers who do this, I don't think that it's gone away at all. In fact there are always new gadgets to "train" with.

I still wonder with this myself. Some people use tack, some people use hands, some use tiedowns or big bits, or heavy nose pieces, but everyone who works on "frame" uses something.

I remember a discussion in the bio-mechanics forum about the use of sidelines. I still debate in my mind which is more incorrect, mechanical means or hands. While I would like to think that hands can be softer - and I imagine the right hands are, sidelines are at least consistent, the release is always in the same place, where with hands it changes.

So....my school of thought is still out on this.

Rik(The Sequel)

karmikacres

kristie

retropony

The jaquima (hackamore) of the vaqueros was/is not the same tool as a rope halter/hackamore by any means. A rope halter offers no clarity of signal to the horse and many braces develop. Hanging off a horse's nose and the delicate nerves in that area is not the same as the feel of the very clear signal from a directional change of the heel knot of a jaquima. Hold the nosepiece of both pieces of equipment, close your eyes, and have someone operate the reins, the difference will be clearly apparent. Can you feel the direction of the request with a subtle rein aid?

PasoBaby_CarolU

I do train with all three, the traditional Spanish Jaquima, the snaffle, and the rope halter and hackamore. I have to agree with most of what all of you say (sound like a lawyer..eh?). The Jaquima is not like a rope halter/hackamore or western bosal. It has two side rein rings on a curb strap, so works as a bitless bridle with clear lateral cues. I prefer it for training young horses as it is definitely clear while they are learning and the curb gives you the start of vertical work.

I do find once the horse is mostly trained, I can do most things equally well in the rope hackamore, the difference being elevation since there is no curb. Of course there is no curb on a snaffle either.

I like what Rik had to say. I've honestly seen well trained horses in all three...and seen horses trashed with all three. A tool is just that, a tool. The difference is in method used by the hands. Skilled hands that know what they are asking, ask correctly.

Lynn

[quote="Rik(The Sequel)"]

Lynn

Out of lurkdom for a minute

Keep in mind something my dressage instructor told me last week. She said '' you people '' with our NH backgrounds tend to focus too much on what the head and neck look like. It's all about the activity and power of the HQ's. Collection is a LOWERING of the HQ's through the joint articulation of the hocks. It happens over time with CORRECT riding as the horse learns to take more weight behind.Then yes, the poll should be the highest point, the neck lengthened from the withers, the throat latch OPEN and the head slightly in front of the vertical. The back rounds up for this to happen rather than the human sitting in a hole in the horses back. Proper training over many years encourages the horse into more and more collection. Just don't be fooled by a round head set, even if the horse is relaxed, it MAY not be correct. The truth is in what are the HQ's doing

Then you have a cycle of FORWARD energy coming from behind and into a GIVING hand. Lather rinse repeat

The latter is something I'm personally working on with my instructor, mostly at the walk. I have not been taught this concept by the NH gurus in the past. I feel if I ever want to ride correctly, and eventually in collection, I'd better get to learning this 'til is second nature. But again, I need to pay less attention to my horses head at this point and more attention to what he's doing with those 'ole hind legs of his

Writing this just FWIW.

Niek

Rik..

thats why i added the whole context deal.. I realise Baucher is slippery ground. I also am well aware of Siegers comments about Baucher.. Aswell as the various Interpetations...

Jack

Tom Dorrance wrote a wonderful poem entitled, "Have You Really Learned to Ride". I'm not sure where it's published but it's a great example of the different views of this subject. I have it saved but can't post it here due to copyrights.

Jack

Rik(The Sequel)

[quote="Lynn"]

Lynn

Did you read the article ? Susannah explains it way better than I can.
I never said and would never say every horse is ridden in the same way. I have 4 very different horses and each one is ridden in the way
( i try anyway ) that he needs in order to help him to be able to use his body under my weight.

AlythLong

Lynne - unfortunately the article doesn't show up clearly enough to read on my screen so I cannot comment on that.

However I do question as to how long you should ride in this manner. To me, riding with the horse "collected" using his hindquarters energetically and his head "in a frame" compares to humans dancing. How about a horse going along a trail in a relaxed "frame" with his hindquarters working energetically but his head stretched out in front of him? This equates to humans going for a brisk walk - and we can go quite long distances in this manner, whereas if we were dancing we would probably be out of breath and energy after 100 yards!!!

Paso Baby - it is my understanding that the snaffle and curb have very different effects. As I understand it the snaffle is for raising the head and lateral flexion - one rein should be used at a time. The curb is used with both reins at the same time and is for vertical flexion - am I wrong? As I haven't used a bit in 12 years and have no intention of using a bit in the future it doesn't matter to me, just what I have understood over the years..... If anyone is interested my opinion is that we have no right to invade our horses body space.......!!!!!

I think we are actually doing the horse a great disservice - he is the only animal that is naturally able to carry us reasonably efficiently. We know he can move efficiently without us on his back, so why does he not move efficiently when we are riding him? To me it is obvious - it is our riding!! It is our weight - are we central or do we lean to one side? Our weight - is it moving with him or are we "trying to influence how he moves"??? Do we grind into his back or sit lightly without interfering? Does our "micromanaging" affect how he moves? Is the tack that we use for our convenience comfortable for him?

IMO when my horses are playing out in the paddock their heads move and don't stay fixed in one position. Their movement is free, easy, cadenced and rhythmic. Regardless of the terrain, slope and ground conditions. They are poetry in motion. Now, my question is, how can I get that movement when I am on their backs!!!!!

I think the term "biomechanic" is of comparatively recent origin!! And there are many different interpretations as to what it means!!! It seems to be politically correct to ride "in a biomechanically correct" form. So the next question has to be "what is a biomechanically correct form"????

I think we are getting paralysis of anylsis and we need to go ride and enjoy our horses, and look, see, read, if our horses are enjoying us!!!

Alyth

Rik(The Sequel)

PasoBaby_CarolU

Alyth, I think you make some excellent points, actually one of my pet peeves about using bits, hands, or tie downs to keep the horse in frame for long periods of time. I like the way you describe the difference and think I'll borrow that for these discussions in the future.

Every piece of tack we put on a horse affects it in some way. Saddles that are too far forward pinch the shoulders and shorten the step, saddles too far back put pressure on the loins. An ill fitting saddle hurts the back. Every bridle, halter, bit, and gadget does something to the horse, and I think more horsemen would get more out of their horses with a lesson in 'bio-mechanics' as it relates to what we tack we use, how we use it, what we achieve and what we're trying to achieve. One of my biggest peeves with the Cradle Bridle was the lack of instruction it came with, but that could really be said about every piece of tack there is.

There are only three lateral training tools that I know of, the snaffle, the jaquima, and the sidepull. Of these, only the jaquima includes a curb..and I should clarify, a curb STRAP, not a curb bit. Curb bits are named so because of the curb strap, which allows leverage and that is a vertical move.

On bio-mechanics, does anyone know of studies done on horses to test any of these theories? I read a lot of articles and people (many whom would be considered experts) making statements about how one thing is incorrect and another thing correct. Aren't all these based on assumptions? No real tests of muscle soreness, lactic acid build up, etc.

It goes back to my comment earlier about "collection." Most disciplines define it by what they want to see the performance look like, not by any hard science on what is really good for the horse, and as Lynn pointed out, each horse is different. I have a very inverted mare here who carries her head high even at Liberty, has over developed under neck muscles and a U-neck from 12 years of doing this. By any expert's definition she should be hollow and have back problems...and yet she doesn't. She flew through her chiropractor exam as very healthy.

It is much easier to call something 'incorrect' when we see real problems from doing something...the shoulder problems in Western Pleasure horses from the exaggerated low carriage is a good example.

becdubie

Thank you for saying this Alyth:

Jack

I love to watch horses when a new horse is added to the herd. Heads are up, snorting and blowing with all the energy available. Ahhh and the feet, the lightness and quickness is unbelievable. You can hear the balance as their hooves hit the ground. A young foal prancing about it's mother is another example of this lightness and I love to watch it.

I don't get to spend much time working with collection but the image of a fresh herd is one I always carry with me. I think Bill Dorrance called it "bringing the life up" and I think it's a necessary component of true self carriage. When I watch many horses undersaddle it always seems to me that the rider is often doing everything to keep the horse calm and the energy low. I'm not certain that "lightness of the feet" is possible when riding like this.

This is not something I worry about much. I'm usually dealing with the beginning rider and the skills they need to learn while the horse is in a controlled state. I'm not concerned with the horses head set, or it's impulsion (life). Those skills are a long time coming for most riders. Many people enjoy their horses without ever obtaining true collection. I believe that a horse with it's life up would scare many folks. I rarely am able to see collection but I can hear it plainly. In my opinion it's simply a lightness in the feet, balanced on all four. The sounds of a balanced horse are very clear to my ear.

I don't pay much attention to Dr. Deb but her idea that people don't need trainers gives me hope. I'm a self taught rider and would propably not enjoy being told how I should sit or rein my horse. Horses and humans are all different in their approach, abilities and skills. If the horse and human are happy and enjoying each other that's good enough for me.

Jack

cynthia peterson

Well, I'm shouting in the wind here....

This is not about setting the head, this is not about a frame, this not setting your hands like Pat ( or Clint Anderson among countless others) Their reflexions are a ghost of what Buck is teaching. It is no braces, with balance. Balance that has to be taught because the horse is out of balance with a rider on. it's a process of getting to the mind, not holding something. It's the same with the feet. And these are concepts others just are not processing. A horse is free to balance it's head where ever it needs. And that looks different after it is taught the idea of balance how to. This isn't Baucher either.

We are saying what Pat has taught is wrong, along with many others. The rope hackamore is far harder to erase braces then a snaffle. Surely some super talented person could use a rope hackamore, but the fact is few Parelli people even know their horse still has a brace with it. there is way too much play in the rope hackamore. The snaffle is far more precise. That's all we are saying.

AlythLong

Cynthia - I totally agree with your middle paragraph! No braces with balance is a great way of putting it. But I feel that phrase describes several different ways of going.

As for the rope halter creating more brace than a snaffle - I can't agree with that one!! I see far more brace in horses wearing a bit, although either can cause a brace - it is the rider that causes the brace. The horse has to brace against something. Usually the rider using a rope halter has a loose rein . What I don't like about that idea is that taking up a contact and dropping the contact is usually too quick!!! Both need to be done gradually - imo anyway!!

Alyth

carefreegirl

right now from what I understand, to me 'correct bio-mechanics' is like picking up a box in an efficient way (and least likely way to cause harm to our bodies) for us humans...

there is more then one way to pick up a box, and despite humans being all sorts of shapes and sizes there is still a basic 'right'/most efficient way to pick up a box, that differs only slightly depending on the individual--this basic most right/efficent way is based on our muscle groups, and where we can most easily get strength without hurting ourselves. aka: it's better to lift with your legs then your back--beyond this basic rule (and other basic rules) there are still many slight variations to correctly lift that box, that will be efficient. Also the physical capabilities will come into play when picking up a box, you wouldn't expect or want a 5 year old kid (or someone who was out of shape) to pick up a 50 pound box, despite them using efficient form. This would also apply to other ways of moving/doing things besides just lifting a box. There would/should be no force or tension involved with the most efficient way, as then it would no longer be the most efficient.

To me the same would apply to horses, you have to keep in consideration what the horse is capable of, and what their conformation is, but there are still ways that across the board will be more efficient and least likely to hurt the horse as he carries us, with slight adaptions for the individuals conformation and physical capabilities.

now that is the way I view it, I'm no expert, and my view my evolve but for now that is what I view 'bio-mechanically correct means.

PasoBaby_CarolU

I'm with Alyth again, I agree with your middle statement and not the others. I personally prefer to see a horse in the 'at liberty' carriage that Jack describes, but I have been since educated that THAT posture is usually hollow in the back and not collected. This site here has the best description of collection, what it is and isn't, of any site I've ever read:

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/collection/index.php

Collection is balance at all gaits, I agree there Cyndy. I don't think people realize how critical balance is the horse's survival and how being out of balance affects them not just physically, but emotionally.

I also disagree with your last statement Cynthia. Riding in the rope halter or hackamore leads to a strung out horse rather then a braced horse. It usually takes a bit or pretty severe headgear to get a horse braced against it.

PasoBaby_CarolU

I was re-reading this and realized we are talking about two different things. Cyndy was talking about 'erasing a brace,' while Alyth and I were talking about causing a brace. As I think about erasing a brace, Cyndy is right, because depending on where the brace is, you will do better with a lateral tool which the snaffle bit is, while the rope halter isn't. As for causing a brace, then I still believe Alyth is right, since when used properly, a rope halter or hackamore is used in Freestyle on a relaxed horse. There needs to be tension to cause a brace, and there wouldn't be in a relaxed horse.

Now recognizing a brace is another subject all together. I believe it was last year we had a discussion in one of the dressage threads about there needing to be some tension for impulsion. There is a lot in Lessons in Lightness about this. I'll have to re-read it and get back.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Here is a very good article on pressure, bracing, and releasing by Harry Whitney:

http://www.tctc.com/~hwhitney/HWArticlesIsTurningARealDrag.html

Rik(The Sequel)

Bio-Mechanics is Bio-Mechanics, I don’t think it helps anyone’s understanding when people ignore this and say this is what it is to me, imagine if people did the same with gravity or electricity.

If we accept that when these trainers talk about Bio-mechanics that’s not actually what they are referring too and that they mean the best way for a horse to carry itself for a given activity to generate the least wear and tear on the Exo-Muscular system or their opinion of the way horse should carry itself to make what ever it is doing as easy for the horse as possible or something else then the many differing views start to make sense.

AlythLong

[quote="Rik(The Sequel)"

As a last comment it’s interesting when I met Ray Hunt he said you didn’t need collection but that it was nice to have, I wonder how that sits with Buck.[/quote]

That is very interesting!! I would love to know the answer to that.

Now I think we have to consider the activity the horse is doing as to whether we need "collection" or anything resembling it. If you are planning a cross country ride of 50 miles to be done in under say, 12 hours, you most certainly don't want your horse moving in that manner. You want him moving out at a brist walk and trot. You don't want short elevated strides, you want a long swinging stride with good impulsion from behind and a long stretching stride by the forelegs!!!

If you are - I can't think of an example! - say in a sand arena and are "showing off", then a collected way of moving might be what you want to impress your girlfriend, or a dressage judge!!! But I cannot think of a practical application that is within my experience. Would you need that type of movment when you are cutting a cow from a herd? Or perhaps when you are trying to rope it to get it on the ground so you can brand it when you are miles away from any yards? Any other ideas?

So to me the reference to bio-mechanics is very much dependent on what you are asking your horse to do. And it does not often, if ever, involve "collection" unless you are planning on a competition career for the horse. It takes quite a while for a young horse to learn to balance his rider in an effortless fashion so asking for too much too soon can cause major problems. A young horse needs to be as relaxed as possible when learning new things. And a lot of care has to be taken so that he doesn't strain muscles that are not used to any degree of effort - it needs building up gradually.

Am I getting off topic?? Alyth

Niek

Some thoughts

Balance is different from collection

We dont "need" collection. But being able to get there can be of great benefit to the horse...

Bio mechanically correct doesnt mean all horses moving a correct manner look the same. correct differs on a whole lot variables.. One horse might need more of this, while the other needs more of that... I do feel there can be common demoninators that can be used as guidelines as to where to look for..

Asto the knitpicking or the correctness of the word.. Im inclined to say that it isnt helping the discussion.

I also understand what Cynthia is saying.. Ive seen a few great photos of balanced and collected horses under Buck. Needless to say he is a great horseman and rider..
Also the work need of the horses he trains differ from pure dressage horses, and so does there frame..and especially more open poll...

Im still inclined to say the elevation of the neck is a modern interpation of baucher/french school (and yes i know the french school isnt just Baucher).. From more pure baucherists like the late Racinent, to people like PK. they do not use this as a mechanic to set the neck.. Its a way to eliminate brace... Activating the jaw enables the TMJ.. Not to mention the neck is a great help for the horse to balance and shift his weight around..

there for i disagree that dressage is just the back end.. (a more german aproach..) The mouth and neck are the first steps.. (controlling these, not setting it in a frame. Its is a grand total of many variables..

PasoBaby_CarolU

I thought I'd pull this from the Sustainable Dressage site as it pertains to this discussion. For people who still haven't read it, I strongly suggest it. There is even a good argument there for riding the young horse freestyle for several years before going very far into collection. There is also discussion about how important it is to stretch the back with the head lower then the withers.

I mentioned that we have been doing dressage clinics here since spring. All kinds of people are taking these lessons, one of which is a professional barrel racer. She has shaved 3 seconds - not 3/10 of a second - but three full seconds off her time by improving the athleticism of her horse. So, I think, even your example Altyth, that a horse will improve when a certain amount of time is spent 'working' the horse in collection.

karmikacres

My definition of lameness is any loss of performance, what's yours?

Mike

kristie

It's interesting how the word "collection" means different things to different people.

Buck gave his definition of collection at the last clinic. To him it means the horse is prepared to do a job, so I'm guessing he would agree with Ray. There seems to be a common distaste for the term.

I think that's why all of his exercises are about balancing the horse. The horse will find his own way of self carriage, but the human can help him by showing him balance.

PasoBaby_CarolU

becdubie

PasoBaby_CarolU

Rik(The Sequel)

I think the interesting thing is a lot of words in use here do have specific meanings but people either misunderstand them and use them to mean something they don’t or intentionally put their own spin on something (I have no idea why you would want too) which then gets passed on and we end up where we are.

Then there are words which do have multiple meanings in use like “feel” it’s no wonder there is such confusion or argument about things, especially when people find it perfectly acceptable to miss use one word but not another.

Niek

Yes rik, i am aware of that...but both of us know not everyone owns a P.R.E or Lusitano

Each horse requires there own route.. so to say, and i think the elevation is a verry good part of lots of routes..

As to the 2 rein ride.. Meh my verdict isnt out on that one..

Trickmule once posted a picture of Buck on his Chestnut during the californios Horse is soft and in balanced, or arguably collection in the heat of the moment... Great shot that was...

PasoBaby_CarolU

kristie

I think that video clip is of a green 2-rein horse, and yes there is LOTS to discuss there. Some vaqueros would probably chop your hands off if you were caught with 2 on the reins

Personally, I don't get caught up in rules or techniques--only what is best for the horse.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Is that horse transitioning from the snaffle to the hackamore or the hackamore to the spade? When I stop it, it looks like a shanked bit.

cynthia peterson

Let me point out the clip of Buck. There is immediate slack in the reins when the asked for action is done. His seat is impeccable. You will not see Buck ride in two hands on the curb usually and this was a schooling time. Still, there is little to complain about. The horse is calm, and his body (both rider and horse ) are impeccable shaped. I am sure this particular clip was a hard emotional time for Buck as it was two weeks after Ray Hunt died.

Let's go back to the braces. Surely there are braces that as harmful to the horse (even more so!) then in the reins. I am talking about braces from bad posture (back to not being taught to use them self) Braces from emotional or poor conformation made from being on the forehand. Do we all remember how Linda had to have Crew out to correct Remmer from what?!,--- could it be poor riding because she was the only one riding him! Here are the best saddles, saddle pads, bridles, Parelli custom Essentials supplement feed, and Remmer gets deformed! That is what we are talking about. Not just Remmer, but almost all Parelli super horses disappear in a :lameness: issue. Could it even be that Magic (who has severe arthritis in the front legs when you get a upclose picture or seen her in live) is not that RB but caused to be so emotional from bad riding!?

Least you think I am just blaming Parelli, let me just end up for those who may be actually reading this to help their horse. All the Clinics, all the books, all the tack, none of it will help without having a way to connect to your horse that tells him to try to do things better, calmly and correctly. That's what I seen with Buck. That's what we all need. It will work, give it a try.

kristie

His 2-rein is usually with a half-breed.

I had some thoughts down, but I think it will be more interesting to hear what you all see. I'm going to kick my feet up now.

cynthia peterson

Gotta' get back on my tractor, but one more comment on the Buck Youtube clip. He is using ALL four reins off and on. See his finger placement. In fact, if you bump up the zoom on your computer and watch his hands it is like playing a piano. That's the way of making a bridle horse, with feel and talent. Still, you never have to get that good or make a bridle horse to get the right unbraced beauty of Buck's way. I am sure their are others who teach this, I have seen a few over the years. All we are saying is to seek someone that knows how, not someone who makes braces or has no way of telling you how to prevent it. Heck, riders need a unbraced too!

PasoBaby_CarolU

Rik(The Sequel)

thelmanelle

PasoBaby_CarolU

Thank you Sonya, but that wasn't my point. It was only about the stage of training shown in the video. Two rein is transitioning from bosal to the spade bit. It is this stage here..

http://www.lesliedesmond.com/index.php?id=132

cynthia peterson

I am super busy I am breezing through all the posts. I do read them all, but I would "muse" over them more and explain more if time permitted. So forgive me for not doing that. This so important, the concepts discussed here, I feel we will all benefit from all the posts. Braces, from where ever they come from are the thing that keeps us all from where we want to be. I think we can all agree with that, Let me quote Tom Dorrance in True Unity,

pg 18 I have spent hours with the horse and rider trying to experience unity between the horse and himself. What I want is for the rider to try to reach for the horse...... It's important to remember to keep the head and neck centered

pg 19 This the goal: when you reach, or you let him (the horse) know, he shapes up the whole horse is all together- balanced. It seems to me (Tom), until a person gets this, he is going to be struggling with a lot of things. This is basic.

This the goal, the basics, whether you learn it from Buck or whoever, this is what we are talking about. Teaching the horse to shape up it's own body, with weight, with balance, getting to the feet. Maybe I'm saying things people just don;t know how to get, but it's there.

Reik. I would like to address your comments on Buck's clip. First off, you do recognize the good. Perhaps you don;t know Buck has no feeling in his right leg below the knee? The horse he is riding (his own) is a work in progress. This is not a "made for sale" video clip and I doubt Buck ever knew he was being filmed. It was just him riding in his own clinic. Any of the points you thought to criticize were the result of wanting the horse to wait and not push. That was when he was working on softening. And I know that you, as a knowledgeable rider have those same times yourself that you would hope to look that good yourself when it happens. Would you agree there? I would say Buck's hands were steady. I would say his seat would be rock solid, what you thought was a "out of the saddle" was a seat aid, something bridlemen do more then Classical dressage riders (not to say classical riders don't ride with seat aids, but this was a bridle horse in training.)

I think it would be beneficial and helpful if I throw the brace question back at you Carol and Reik. I think it would be helpful to us all what your idea of braces are and what causes them and how to prevent them. Maybe we should start a different thread on braces then to lump them in with the Buck thread.

carefreegirl

merle

PasoBaby_CarolU

Cynthia, you and I have had many nice horsemanship discussions over the years, and I am preceding with this only because of that. I think the BEs have had enough fun with the word 'brace,' so I'll just leave that out of this. I will however direct you to Lynn's post about what is pretty and what isn't, to Leslie Desmond's site about the angle of the horses head caused JUST by holding the spade bit - and then I'll agree with a great deal of what you said.

I would like to proceed with this discussion though by doing what Lynn's video suggested, take the rider off the horse. Ignore who is up there. This is not about any person. Look at the horse.

I see a horse rounding, bending, learning to carry himself. Although the horse is broken at the crest and not the poll, I agree this is a work in progress, however one of my last beatings was over "does the end justify the means?" and where that was over helping a dangerous horse, and this is strictly for performance, I'll leave you to go back to BE and look up the answer.

I do see a release in the reins. However I still see the horse evading a harsh bit, and it matters nada to me if it is half breed (half bad?), spoon, cathedral, correctional high port curb, or spade bit. THAT bit is still causing the horse to ride behind the vertical all by itself, even after the release. I've heard all about how these are signal bits, "in the right hands," and all the other arguments justifying their use, but here I see a horse in release, still evading the bit.

I am positive this gymnastizes the horse and 'forces' the horse into the center between the reins, to bend and round, and eventually gives you a beautiful horse, exactly what you just said. But, so do tie-downs, surcingles with tie-ins, roller martingales, etc.

And so does doing Classical Dressage, with time, slowly and painlessly.

This forum is called, "It's about the Horse." To bring our mentor Tom into this, I fail to see what the horse gets out of being ridden in this bit. Sore pallet, sore tongue, stiff neck, emotional stress...all of which will probably go away with time.

But why do it in the first place?

You know, I've studied "Horsemanship" since I was nine years old and started 4-H. I have no idea how many lectures and clinics I've been to, how many shelves of books, videos and DVDs I have on all kinds of horsemanship. I've studied Reining, Vaquero, traditional Spanish horsemanship, natural horsemanship, tons of gait training and collection, and some classical dressage...and a lot that aren't named in between. I'm sure I've forgotten more then I remember. And as far as applying things, I have walls of ribbons, boxes of trophies and belt buckles, and a barn full of embroidered horse blankets. You know, in the process I've done a lot of things to horses I'm no longer proud of.

It all changed for me at a Tour Stop when I finally grasped what "Natural horsemanship" was and could be. The goal is not the goal, so "performance" went right out the window for me as a primary goal. I'm not a groupie. I don't think anyone has ALL the answers. I think there are important lessons in other schools of horsemanship. I like this forum because we get to learn about them all and discuss the pros and cons of each - as they apply to us and our horses.

Now...I am not a teacher or lecturer. I don't claim to be an "expert" and as Jack mentioned, I have nothing to gain from running this forum. This is not a classroom forum, and I am not trying to change your mind or how or what you do with or to YOUR horses. This is MY opinion and what I feel is best for MY horses. This is a DISCUSSION.

So, you asked about what I saw in the video, that is what I saw.

Buck

Re: Buck

Lame horse

Re: Buck