| Archive for It's About The Horse The Free Forum for those Doing Parelli - and a whole lot More! "Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful." Xenophon (430-355 B.C.), |
| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Building the hind endI know with gaited horses ALL gait comes from the hind end. I think it is also critical for collection in trotting horses, so thought I'd start a thread for people to share methods of building and conditioning the hindquarters, which really are a horse's motor.I have learned that you start this from the ground, getting the horse to circle in close while stepping under themselves. You do this by using the reins to lower the head and urge the horse forward, and using your stick (where your foot would go) to urge the hindquarters over as the step forward. You have to have forward motion, so you need to circle with the horse. You ask and release on the reins. Once it is good at a walk, you ask for it at a trot. If you want the horse to step deeper, you cue with your stick when the OUTSIDE foot is moving, since it needs to move outside farther first in order for the inside leg to step deeper underneath. You can actually watch this lift the horse in the loin area and bend the horse. This is an excellent conditioning exercise and should be done daily. |
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| Julie |
Is this different for a gaited horse, I would ask my horse to step under more, not outside, but may have read this wrong? | ||||
| PasoBaby_CarolU |
The horse can't step UNDER more until his outside leg is farther out, allowing room for a deeper step. | ||||
| Chris |
How many minutes should this be done per day? | ||||
| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Oh...just a few minutes...5. There are more exercises. I wanted others to add theirs.
Another good one is halfpassing in hand. |
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| Niek |
Backing corners, but that only trains one leg at the time so to say 
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Niek, if you get the horse to back with it's back end...really back, the rear end pulling the front end, then when you do corners...or S's, you get both sides. I do admit this is a better exercise from the saddle. But the idea with the back is the same...in order to use the rear end, the horse can't just step backwards, it has to MOVE backwards. | ||||
| Niek |
In the S pattern id say yes you get both sides more equally. Just backing in corners there will be more weight on the inside hind. | ||||
| Thunder Hollow |
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| Jeanette |
Interesting thread.
I'm just wondering how the backing idea fits with Philippe Karl's idea of shifting balance to the HQ by raising the head and neck. On his first DVD he asks for backing by lifting the neck..maybe this helps with building the quarters too as you put weight back there first? I don't have his book...does he elaborate in his book? Alexandra Kurland has an exercise of walking round a circle of cones and stopping at each cone and turning to face the horse and stepping in towards him to ask him to back up a few steps. Since she is a clicker trainer the backing is accompanied by a treat..but don't suppose this is essential. Lunging on a hill as well to build the second thigh? |
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| carefreegirl |
Hill therapy type work, cavelleti/trot poles/canter poles, low jumping, turning loose technique of Karen Rohlf's, Lots of transitions, trotting and walking up hills, cantering up hills (once they are already fairly fit), and most of the exercises already mentioned are what comes to mind when I think of strengthening the hind end, and the top-line muscles. | ||||
| Clarissa |
I wish I could whole heartedly agree with all those exercises working. However after 2years of doing all of them with Sonny, it is my experience that they only work WHILE they are being done. None has changed Sonny's predispersition to sloutch for more than a few days. During the times when I am physically unable to exercise him, he reverts & looses his topline. It is extremely disheartening having to redo it all the time as it takes a toll on my body. Currently I'm unable to ride because I am trying to build his topline again so the saddle will fit properly. But using the ropes/lines makes my arms so sore I have nothing left to ride with. I think though, that this might be a problem unique to Sonny. He is just a very difficult horse all round. Other horses probably maintain the new muscle & body shape more than he does. |
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| carefreegirl |
you also have to keep in mind that all muscles waste away if not being used, and usually will even degrade or change if the way they are being used changes.
That is why althletes train so much, they don't get in top shape and expect to stay that way without exercising pretty much every day. Maybe because Sonny is the way he is, it is extra difficult for you to keep him working/excercising/moving the way he should. Because every time he gets a break he quickly reverts to the 'easier' way. I notice with Bently that if I haven't been doing some sort of topline/hind end strengthening excersises frequently he starts to lose those muscles, it is just what happens. It is a process, I don't think there ever is a time when you can 'stop' all strengthening exercises, there may come a time when you can finally do them a little less frequently to maintain what you have, but even then it won't ever end, it's a way of living/being, not an end result. 
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| Julie |
Pessoa! | ||||
| Jeanette |
I can really relate to what has been said about maintenance.
Whilst still a complete novice I spent a lot of money on a show cob who looked absolutely fab and beautifully muscled up when I bought him....he scared me witless and was not right for me....but by the time I sold him he was half his former self because I just did not know enough to know what I'd bought and how to maintain it. It was a humbling experience. It still applies though to all riders not just novices ...the horse will reflect the way we ride it and the work we are able to put in. Real life has to be dealt with as well though....work, kids etc!...so now though I admire really fit, muscled horses I don't drool after what I can't maintain and just do the best I can in the time I have. Equally I would not pay for somebody elses conditioning work on a horse unless I knew I could maintain it. |
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| Clarissa |
Julie it was a pessoa type setup that caused him to drop his barrel in the first place.
I got a guy who trained dressage horses & did Bowen Therapy to treat him for a cutting session strain in his shoulder & he said to use this setup. I was to use the 22' rope, run it from the heel knot of the halter through between his front legs, up over his back & down through between his front legs again & back to the halter. It had to be loose so he could easily lift his head to a position slightly above level. I was to walk him on a circle for 5mins then trot 4mins & then go the other way. I think Sonny gave to the weight of the 22' rope too much & dropped his barrel (his rib cage) because it was about that time when I noticed his withers get very pointy & the muscles drop where the saddle sits. He also learned to be very lazy in his carriage as he went around with his head dragged down by the weight of all that rope hanging from his halter. So I guess that meant he'd got on his front end. Here's a photo (1) of Sonny in 2006 about that time but before he got the muscle strain. (2)Then he got like this by 2007. (3)This is the best I can get now (taken this time last year). (1)  (2)  (3) 
The thing that annoys me is that many quarter horses sit around unused in paddocks all their lives & always have nice muscle bulk. Whereas Sonny gets all scrawny at the drop of a hat. |
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| Julie |
The main difference is that the pessoa connects in the back end of the horse to encourage them to use it, otherwise its a different way of working, that sounds more like a running rein than a pessoa set up. | ||||
| havingfun |
Clarissa, that's what my once muscular quarter horse looks like at 24. He's been a stall potato since my daughter went to college and high withers have moved on back his entire spine. At least he seems happy.
I did a version of hill therapy with Navonie for 6 weeks alternating hand walking, lunging in the round pen (calling it what it is), and running around the arena. I set up jumps along the edge of the round pens and would walk or jog beside her to encourage to go over instead of around. The topline isn't much different, but her hind end and sides are more muscular, less jiggly. I think if we would have continued the muscling would have worked up to the topline. We both enjoyed it but I was ready to ride again. I plan to keep up the ground exercising on days I don't ride and am curious if the muscling continues. My pathetic lungs are stronger for what we did. 
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| Clarissa |
Yes Julie I understand that the pessoa can help many horses. However it's success is based on the premise that the horse will lift it's neck(spine) higher into it's rib cavity & wither to lighten the leverage of the rope guides. Sonny on the other hand has his own method of dealing with pressure. He drops his neck down which means his chest bone sticks out the front of his chest. It also means he has dropped his ribcage & made an S with his neck to avoid carrying his ribcage higher in his frame. This has been the problem all along. All exercises for strengthening the topline & developing self carriage rely on the horse being happy to carry itself better & not resisting lifting into a better frame. I can't apply pressure in any form to Sonny's head & expect him to lift over the point of leverage & raise his ribs & neck up into his withers. Applying pressure to his HQ will also cause him to resist it. So he would allow the resistance to hurt his mouth rather than yield to it by lifting his back & stepping forward earlier. He pushes against or escapes pressure most of the time. He is happy to fight rather than yield. During the early stages of Hill Therapy which was before I properly understood this behavior, I inadvertantly taught him to yew his neck (or as I like to think of it.... pull it in like a turtle!)  I now have to work with this muscle memory in everything I do with him.
Rather than use his HQ for stability going down hill, he will just pull his neck in to shorten the front half of himself & rely on his front legs to stop him rolling down the slope. 
How can I teach him good posture & self carriage? 
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| samfern |
Pessoa's can also cause hamstring injuries... I maintain top line in a KS horse and use a method taught to me by the UK Olympic team physio.
Use a roller with an old leather strap between the legs with a carabina on (where a martingale loop would go). Get a really long thin lunge rein and put through bit one side, run between carabina between legs and back up to other side of bit. The horse can evade it completely however most don't, it encourages long and low rather than forcing it. I do this 2 days per week, 10 mins each rein and the other 4 I do serious hill and fast work, maybe one of those days schooling. |
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| Clarissa |
That sounds a very similar setup to what I was advised to use on Sonny by the Bowen therapy guy. But Sonny evaded it by dropping neck down low in his chest. I had the rope so slack it was flapping against his knees so he was definately long & low but he just would not lift his head & his wither got more & more pointy & his ribs dropped lower in his chest until I stopped because it was counter productive. I changed to a very light string-like rope but it made no difference, damage was done, muscle memory established! In a lazy horse it's the last thing you need. |
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| Blue Flame |
Clarissa,
You've probably tried this but I'll put it out there anyway . . . . How would he go over ground poles and cavallettis? Maybe experiment with the spacing and height . . . change things as soon as he gets blah about the setup to keep him paying attention to it and make it at least a little challenging for him. I'm thinking that the way you describe Sonny's tendencies, with regards to fighting or evading pressure, that maybe what is needed is to change where the pressure is applied. By using things on the ground such as poles and cavallettis you can apply pressure from underneath in order to get him to lift. There are other things to try as far as getting that lift by applying pressure underneath but one involves riding with long spurs and the other involves great marksmanship with the savvy string. I'd tend to try objects on the ground first. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Language barrier again. I understand the rest. What do you mean by "roller with an old leather strap"??? Wouldn't this work with strap and caribeaner hooked on the rings of a girth or cinch? BTW - you have done a beautiful job with that horse, he looks awesom. |
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| Clarissa |
Thanks for that Blue Flame. I do a fair amount of HT over drums & other jumps I have set up around the place. Currently I have him going over 44gal drums laying down but 2 drums deep so he has the double width of drum to jump. These things work for a while. Usually it's my arms that give out first. As for setting out cavalletteis, etc, my back injury decides how much manual work I can do. So not too much opportunity to change the setup considering the other horses would (& have previously) altered the setup to suit themselves  meaning I have to redo the setup before each ride! I used to have a set of 6 cav's set on holders made from 20lt drums cut in half. The horses loved to chew & play football with them!!
Anyway all jokes aside..... if I had a suitably large flat area away from the horse's paddock I would set up some cav's & ride them. So best I can do is online jumps which I am doing now. When the soil isn't too hard I include the double width jump but when it's drought I feel it's too much of a shock to his body to have him go over that jump all the time considering he has such poor carriage. He tends to slam his frontend down into the ground for too many laps before he starts lifting himself properly. I think he does get very sore & has to make the effort to stop the shock each jump but overall it can't do his body much good. According to the program we are on, it's wide jumps tomorow again for HT. I wish I had a space large enough to use the 45' out at 30' so his circle was more to his liking & balance capabilities. He seems willing enough to go over the jumps if it's just one on the circle. If I add a second smaller jump he will try to evade the harder jump
So I watch each jump & if it is a good jump I move the circle so he has a clear lap next time. That's my current experiment with reward for good jumping. Not sure yet if it's working. Sometimes things take a long time to sink in to him. Last year I did think of setting up cav's all around the circle so I did that once with 6 poles & he couldn't be bothered to avoid them & stood on them, rolled his pastern, scrubed his heel & cannon, knocked them out of the way, anything to get rid of them. They were about 7-9" round which is too heavy for me to keep moving around or lifting up etc. I have a log that is 12" high & he will usually clear that although not always. He often just stumbles over it or trots over it like it's not there. I have another at right angles to that one which is 20" high & he will also try to trot over that too just as he does with the drums if not double width. Hence he comes down on his front feet quite heavily & he is quite happy to rely on his front end to hold him up & save him from falling over.
But I'll keep at it. There is no responsibility on his part to maintain gait when it comes to jumps (according to him)  I have to keep pushing him on. Sometimes I get sick of it & tag him big time & he goes right brained for a while & pulls my arm out of it's weakened socket! Then he acts real nice, apologetic & interested for a short while, then it's back to the same lazy horse. sigh.... But he gets back at me next session by running away while we are doing liberty or some similar inspired thing
My arms are aching just thinking about it all 
I did use spurs 3 yrs back & he would just stand there & put up with them!!! Mind you they aren't at all sharp & have large loose rowls. He reacted so much it was very soon counter productive. Occasionally I will get them out & his eyes get very wide but it's a constant effort to undo the tension from his reacting & bad behaviour, so nothing productive comes of the session other than to let him know I'm not always a pushover.
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| bit |
Larry Whitesell talks about not pulling the horse when you lead him off, because the front feet pull the back feet. He uses a dressage whip and gently taps on the hq's to move the horse, and the back feet step under the body and drive the horse forward with the rear legs. It's pretty dramatic, seeing the difference in how Eclipse when I ask her to move forward. Difference between pushing and pulling moves the front feet or the back feet. Does this translate to the saddle. If you push, you get the back feet. If you pull, you get the front? That makes sense. | ||||
| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Yes. He teaches you the same exercises from the saddle. You ask the hind end to move first. |
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| Blue Flame |
Clarrisa,
When I mentioned ground poles and cavalettis I was meaning using them, not as jumps, but to regulate and alter the stride - trot stride mainly. I was also envisioning mainly work on-line or at liberty rather than ridden. Lets say a horse goes around the circle with a constant amount of energy and a constant rhythm. If that horse were to trot around and then came up to a few ground poles or cavalletis that were spaced just a little shorter than his normal trot stride - if he maintained the same amount of energy but shortened his stride for the pole spacing and kept the same rhythm in his gait, then that energy has nowhere to go but upwards. Just a theory but of course it would depend on how well he can maintain his rhythm and energy level. I can see how jumping might be counter-productive to what you are trying to achieve. Sure, the horse gathers himself before the jump for takeoff - but wouldn't the vast majority of the effort be in the actual launch? Think about what muscles in his back he is using to take off - probably not the ones to be building in order to lift his back. In gathering himself for takeoff - he can also brake on his front end and use his momentum to bring the back end closer under him so very little work for the muscles you want to build. The largest muscles on a horse are the ones used for forward propulsion when the hind feet are planted and driving and the fronts are leaving the ground. When these muscles are engaged, so also must the muscle "over" the back be engaged to stabilise the spine against flexing upward like a hump. Their action is to stop the back from overly rounding up. The smaller muscles which the horse uses to re-gather himself when his feet are off the ground - or when a particular foot is off the ground - tend to tire first - it is why racehorses get longer as they tire because they stop reaching forward as much. The best way I can think of to exercise these smaller muscles is to engage the horse in exercises in which they are slowing down - i.e. downward transitions when moving downhill or backing up hill. With the downward transitions, they can still brake on the front end, but with the backing, I think they have to engage the collecting muscles of the HQ and pelvis because I don't think there is really the musculature in the FH to enable them power backwards off the FH going uphill. Just throwing ideas out there - could be wrong, very probably am . . . . |
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| BuffaloBill |
To build muscels of the hindend, I like the following exercices:
- walk uphill. I do that with my horse in our hills/mountains (sometimes quite steep!!) and I can tell it builds the hind end because I feel my muscles there the next day because I walk with him - even though I'm not an untrained person! So i guess it does the same for the horse. The disadvantage is that of course you have to go downhill again... -- cavalettis as already said. I think that greater distances make the horse stretch forwards / downwards to check the poles, and smaller distances but higher cavalettis force the horse to lift his legs; so the second is better to lift the front end in my opinion. -- I especially like "million transitions" in a quick change of walk, trot, halt, trot, walk, halt, backwards, trot, backwards, trot - especially the trot-halt/backwards-trot transitions build the hind end, I imagine. -- Shoulder-in builds the inner hind leg, also the already mentioned exercise on the circle - which is I think a shoulder-in on the circle? Also, Travers builds the hind end, doesn't it? And from Travers you can go to a Pirouette at walk which should make the forehand lighter. I try to avoid too much disengagement of the hindquarters, they make the front end heavy, logically... I'm not an expert, though 
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| Clarissa |
Ah yes Blue Flame I understand now!! I just wish the poles would convince Sonny to actually pick his feet up & modify his gait instead of stumbling over them to dislodge them out of the way!!
He does sometimes put in effort if they are high enough & he CAN'T dislodge them. I guess his cannons get so sore he stops bulldozing the poles out of the way!!
His front knees seem to be too floppy & he doesn't have much action in his stifles & hocks. Or else he is just too lazy to pick up his back feet properly. BB I did used to back him up my dam wall which is relatively steep but this year he has gotten very weak in the loins so I haven't done that yet. However he is probably strong enough by now to do that exercise again. I just have to remember to tie his tail up or he treads on it while backing up the hill. That stops his backward travel & he just stands there looking stupidly at me as if to say "well what now??"
I am feeling instinctively that he needs to build his loins & HQ muscles before we try to get better topline muscles going which is why I was thinking the jumping would work. I am thinking he might have a weakness/old injury in his loin/SI/hip region which may make him too sore to put in a lot of effort. Although that wouldn't account for him having tense hind legs. Well I don't think so anyway. Instead of using his stifle or hock joints, he rocks his hips as he moves his legs forward. That's how I know if I've had a successful session of HT with him. As I watch him run downhill after letting him go, I watch to see if he uses his back legs properly or if his HQ bobs up in the air which means his back legs are stiff & therefore he is still on his frontend. All his leg joints creak & have done for years. No idea why!
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| bit |
Clarrisa, have you tried massage with your routine? And stretching? Looks like I am taking in an older horse that will need some reconditioning, so I'll be coming back to this thread for guidance as soon as she arrives. No racking horse, Carol but she is a TWH. woo hoo!
I can't get over the difference in the horse when he's worked and when he slouches. It's almost like he has some kind of weakness somewhere that prevents his skeleton from supporting him. If he's worked, he can do it with just muscle, but when he's not, there's nothing there to support him. It's like there's something going on that you haven't figured out yet. Has a chiro seen him? |
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| Clarissa |
Bit, I got various people to look at him early last year I think it was....or maybe late the year before.....anyway I wasn't all that happy with their apparent knowledge. I know a bit & I ask a LOT of questions. If I don't get easy flowing answers I begin to think the practioner deosn't know as much as they are charging for 
I am toying with asking Nashama for help. They are so busy though, I don't know if they can take on a horse by video consult! Also I don't have anyoneto lead him while I video. Also re the massage etc. He HATES massage. I know a little which I try from time to time, but he just swishes his tail, pins his ears, opens his mouth, bares his teeth then takes off however he can get away. Doesn't matter where I/we tried to touch him. The bowen/muscle therapy guy didn't have much success with him either which is why he suggested the pessoa style setup. If I know he has hurt himself somewhere I try to do a soft gentle massge just to try to releave the hurt & make him understand massage can be a good thing, but he's not convinced.
He is no child of mine.....I LOVE massage! I have so many physical injuries which are partially relieved by massage, I just can't understand why he would resist so violently particularly when he might be so sore. You'd naturally think that even the touch of hands to start with, would be enough to get the easing energy flowing & he would feel that it was good. Not so it turns out.
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| Blue Flame |
Clarissa,
Re: The symptoms of tight HQ, not picking hind feet up etc. . . . Blue Flame has many of the same symptoms you describe - something in the sacro area. We have an Osteo working with him who says that when she first started working on him he was basically locked up around his pelvis with lots of guarding by the muscles. It's a very old injury and she says he may never be 100% with it again but we will do what we can to keep him more comfortable. She gave us a set of stretches to do with him and over time we can see him getting more comfortable. It's not just the stretching of the actual muscle that benefits him, but also the nervous system and neural pathways that are exercised during the stretches. When the guarding of the problem area by the muscles has been going on for a long time, these pathways need to be rebuilt/re-established during a stretch so that the nervous system can once again become ok with allowing the muscles to relax into those positions - thus lessening the amount of guarding. Basically each limb is taken forward to stretch the DDFT, then back to stretch the muscles which swing the limb forward when it is off the ground. With Blue Flame, he also tends to rope walk with his hinds so when we take the hind limb forward we also take it outwards to stretch the inside of his thigh. Unfortunately, it does take some arm strength and a little back strength to initially get the limbs into the stretch position, then you can rest your back by placing your elbows or wrists on your knees. The Osteo says that there are many layers of compensation to be peeled away and as each one is dealt with we get closer to the origin of the problem. We are finding he is loosening up over time - noticable within a week but continuing to improve and we see positive changes in his gait - rope walking is lessening and front end action is getting straighter. The rope walking has changed in such a way that nowadays he still swings the hind feet inwards but is now starting to swing it outwards again just before it hits the ground and he no longer twists on the hind foot as it is leaving the ground. Just a question - Does Sonny tend to crush his heels/heelbulbs on his hind feet? Blue Flame does this and every so often our trimmer takes toe sole away as he overgrows there as a result of over using his hind heels and ends up with a -ve coffin bone angle. Another symptom we have is windgalls on the hind fetlocks which are always there and only vary in size and turgidity - not sure if it is related to the other stuff but shows there is stress in the fetlock joint. Other symptoms which are improving with the Osteo and stretches - spends less time in paddock with hind legs under him and allows cannons to get out beyond vertical more often while grazing - stands wider in the hind end more often. One very obvious symptom - when asked to lift barrel behind withers by porcupine under breast he objects very strongly i.e. have to be very careful not to get cow-kicked. One more thing with muscle tightness - make sure he is getting enough magnesium. If you like, we could maybe video the stretches we do and post them on youtube or something for you to see if it is something you could do. |
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| Julie |
Samfern - you are just down the road from me - which physio do you use? Is it Jenny? | ||||
| Clarissa |
Blue Flame that is all just sooo interesting!!
There are many similarities:- narrow base of hind feet, low hind foot flight arc, windgalls just above his hind fetlocks (from accidents years ago), that rope walking you describe (his easyboots rub & catch each other often). He has had some very bad accidents as a young horse & I'm sure he must have permanent injuries. I would be really interested to see those stretches you are doing thankyou. Hopefully my back would stand up to doing them too. Dr John Kohnke (veterinarian) who makes supplememnts specially for Australian conditions, has also designed many exercises for horses with SI problems. He says lots of horses get them from accidents, jumping incorrectly, ridden incorrectly, etc. He has one shown on his website which is to walk the horse diagonally across at least 3 logs 9" high laying on the ground. Form a crisscross pattern so both sides going both directions are covered by the horse. It is to relax the SI joint. The hind foot has to take a longer stride on just the one or other side as it crosses the log diagonally. I have 3 logs setup in my paddock which I walk over every time I ride & often when doing online HT I trot him across them. But I haven't made a proper program of it for ages like the one he has setout on his website. Actually Kohnke's supplement does work towards stopping Sonny's creaking joints but it's very expensive & one of the things I had to stop buying last year. I do plan to use it again soon as I can afford it. Perhaps it would also help to lubricate & free up tight joints. Maybe I didn't use it long enough to see benefits in the SI/hip department. Or perhaps I wasn't riding at that stage. I can't remember.
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| Blue Flame |
Clarissa,
Will try to get a video soon of the stretches. They are nothing too special but we have found they make a difference. I think much of the reason they work is that the stretch helps reset the nervous system by dissipating the guarding reflex - all tied up with proprioception (sp?) and muscle memory somehow. That aspect is reaching into the field of orthobionomy type treatment. Ideally I'd like to combine the osteo with ortho, chiro and Bowen's - but it's hard to find a chiro around here although I have a line on a local ortho. It seems we get something beneficial but different from each type of specialist. Thanks for describing Kohnke's diagonal over the logs exercise. Anything we can do to help Blue Flame loosen up around the pelvis is going to help. Sounds like we have some similarities going on here. Blue Flame is a horse who tends to tighten up in the hind end. It is kind of a paradox because we're always hearing about how people are trying to get their horses to step under towards the midline and get their HQ underneath them, yet in our case this very same posture and way of moving are symptoms of old injuries. Off to google some stuff on Dr John Kohnke. Just read the beginning of one of his articles which confirms stuff I've heard before about lumbar/sacro type problems being so prevalent in racehorses. Blue Flame trialled under a steeplechase license according to his NZTB racing records and from what we can gather (according to Margrit Coates) he had a bad tumble over a hurdle. |
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| Julie |
Clarissa - the fact that he hates massage could be because he is so sore that its irritating to be touched softly. Have you tried a firm massage using either a heat type gel or arnica and witchhazel gel. If you can manage to give him a good rub somewhere on his body and he enjoys it, then you can use advance and retreat to move on to new areas. Always massage after exercise when he is nice and warm as well, otherwise it could be more than he can bear.
My horse had inflammation of the muscle covering and could not bear to be touched behind the shoulder, despite the fact that she was a very kind mare.Her muscles were too sore. By working her it reduced the inflammation so we could then manage to treat her using a tri phase stimulator which worked brilliantly. I have answered on your other thread - if there is sacro iliac pain then you need very gentle exercise. |
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| Blue Flame |
Krohnke's article on sacro-iliac pain including the diagonal pole exercises Clarissa referred to:
http://www.horseproblems.com.au/J...No%209%20May%2006%20Formatted.pdf |
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| Blue Flame |
Clarissa,
Here's the link to the video of the stretches Heiki gave us to do for Blue Flame. They're pretty basic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU...0&feature=player_profilepage# You can rest your elbows or wrists on your knees for each one. All stretches except the front leg forward you can assume a lunge position with elbow resting on forward bent knee and other leg straight - so, it is also a way to give yourself a stretch. In both the front and hind stretches fowards, it is a good sign if the horse straightens out the coffin joint by lowering the heel because it gives a long stretch to the DDFT. The front leg stretch forwards is as simple as it looks - just try to keep the front leg in line with the body and shoulder. The front leg stretch underneath, support the fetlock being careful not to twist the skin around as it tend to do. Use the other hand on the knee (more correctly wrist) to stretch front foot towards hock. Keep the cannon parallel with the ground - this is important to get the required stretch up the front of the forearm. Horse may try to straighten leg on this one if you push too far. The hind leg stretch forward for the DDFT and hamstring areas. One hand to hold toe of hoof and other on inside of hock. You'll see in this one that we stretch forwards and somewhat to the outside of the front feet. Heiki asked us to add this sideways component to help stretch the inside of the leg so I position the foot that way and pull the hock out a little to keep the leg in-line through the hock - so that we aren't twisting him through the hock. This seems to help with the rope walking. The hind leg stretch out the back is primarily for the hip flexors. Basically taking it back to where a farrier would work it and feeling for the horse to relax into it rather than pulling on him. Keep this one straight and in line with the rest of the horse. I use the fleshy underside of my forearm to support the cannon and fetlock so that we aren't bone on bone. The other hand I use to just support the hoof. We hold each stretch for around 30 seconds. Again, just asking for a little and waiting for the horse to relax into it rather than pulling harder. It won't be a good stretch if you are pulling on eachother and I think it is important for over-writing (neurologically) the guarding reflex for the horse to relax into the stretch. It's also a good opportunity to have a look at the feet while you're counting off each 30 second stretch. We started Blue Flame with the diagonal walks over the ground poles yesterday - thanks again for that one. |
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| Clarissa |
Ahhh! now I know the ones you were refering to! We always used to do them before riding most horses prePNH. Also did the girth stretch which is similar to the front foot out front stretch you show in your vid.
Blue Flame seems to really get into them too! Thankyou for putting them up for me/us. It's all very handy knowledge. Umm just as an aside......I was totally dumbstruck when I saw the video. I have always been thinking the person Blue Flame was a female with long wavy red hair!!!! Now where did I get that thought from  Nice to meet you anyway BF! Maybe the person holding the camera fits my image better?
I find it extremely interesting & thought provoking how & why we develop images in our head as a result of reading someone's written material or from listening to their voice. mmmmmm
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| Blue Flame |
Person holding the camera is Miki, my 15yo daughter and Blue Flame's rider, she has long wavy dark hair. It probably wouldn't have helped any if I'd been signing my posts off with my name either - its Sandy
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| samfern |
Sorry guys, been in Holland for a few days so not been on here...
Carol - I have taken a picture if this helps! Thanks for your comments about my mare, she will be 18 next time... not bad! Bless her. 
Julie - I don't use Jenny Hadland, I use Southern Hills vets and they have an in house physio, Vicki who is ITEC qualified. We must catch up as you are in Tilford. [/img][/url] |
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| samfern |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Thanks for the picture. It could be closer, but I think I get the idea. It reminds me of something Larry said to me about the Circling Game. It is kind of a waste of the your/your horse's time, when you could spend the same time conditioning your horse. | ||||
| samfern |
Hi. I'll take some closer ones in next couple of days..
There is a thread on the Parelli forum attacking lunging today, I put in my point of view! Grrr  That forum is just filled with novices now!!
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| Julie |
Must get together as you are close - when are you free!!
I know Vicki as I used to use them until about 4 years ago- (she is qualified in sports massage - I remember when she qualified, but I am pretty sure she never qualified as a horse physio). |
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| samfern |
She is working directly under Dietrich's supervision anyway and is very knowledgeable. I am not a fan of employing physio's directly without vet referral so it has always worked well as she just carries out his instructions. | ||||
| Julie |
She is lovely, as is Adam, but won't touch Dietrich with a barge pole! Would love to come see you - can take the pics - LOL! | ||||
| samfern |
Ha ha, I will be forever indebted to Dietrich for his work on my mare, he is a lameness genius but a funny old bugger who's getting funnier!! I had a big row with him a few months back which resulted in a large boquet of flowers and an apology turning up at my house. Admittedly Adam is a delight and also a fine vet. | ||||
| Julie |
No - but i am in Sheephatch lane, Tilford, so we are 10 miles apart! | ||||
| bit |
ok guys, MORE! Tom Dorrance suggested that you "stop your hands in mid air", and I just cocked my head to the side and said, "wut?" To stop the horse, you quit riding, shoulders and hands freeze, there is some tension, (but no pulling) on the reins, and the horse stops. You hold tension until the horse takes a step back and then ask the horse to move forward, again. This will get the horse moving forward by rocking back and engaging the hq. Seems to work. I'd like to learn more.
We are doing the exercise that started this whole thread, by Larry Whitesill. The only thing I would add to that one is that you need to keep your feet pointed forward, in the direction you are going, not pointed towards the horse. We do massage, stretching, Whitsill, walking up hill, and the Tom Dorrance "stop". Just started some little jumping...maybe 1 to 2 feet. Any other suggestions? |
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| Clarissa |
Bit if I asked Sonny to walk forward a step or more after just a step backwards he would need 3steps forward before his HQ took 1step because he makes his back so long these days. I have to keep him moving backwards for several steps until his body has concertinered enough that the first forward step will come from behind. Then I ususally have to move the HQ sideways to insist it's the HQ that steps first. I've gotten so sick of doing it that these days I often forget so it's a bit of a useless exercise really.
If I was able to get him to rock back like that he would make sure he only did it a few times. He would deliberately park out as I stopped him after that so he didn't get caught out engaging his HQ!
I just seem to be micro managing the horse all the bloody time these days & no time to just have a leisurely ride.
There must be more to that exercise you talk about than just lifting & quitting riding. Like lots of preparitory stuff that leads to this stop. Lots of trainers say similar things about the stop. Lifting, holding, 1 step, 2steps, forward to go backward. It's all there in some form in many trainers' teachings. Problem is getting YOUR horse to DO it ALL the time
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Clarissa, I just wonder why Sonny is doing that. Maybe many, many, many sessions of the Yo-Yo game...trot, stop, back, will get him to stop on his hind quarters and ready to use them. This is my tried and true method for getting a good stop. | ||||
| littlechestnuthorse |
I got my horse Socks at age 14, as an ex-rodeo horse. She had learned to carry herself in the epitomy of "bad-banana" form. It took me years to teach her to consistently ride in a more correct form without constantly correcting her, and yet she still stands around the pasture looking like an old nag with her back hanging. But when she's moving, she'll pick herself up and do it properly now. I can relate personally. I was a swimmer in HS and college, and slouched around in bad "swimmer posture" for over 10 youthful years. Its habit now, as much as I try to change it.
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| bit |
Yep, Larry says parked out is a bad thing, and if he were at a show, and they wanted the horse parked out, he'd do without the ribbon. The horse needs to stop with his hind feet under him, and not past the tail. He does a rear end disengage, and keeps it going until the horse is stepping under himself, correctly. The horse shouldn't be stepping away, he should be stepping under.
How bout some pictures or utubes of getting a horse to engage his rear. Not disengage, but engage? |
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| Clarissa |
Actually Bit! I'm prepping my mind to do just that! Got to think about camera angles, time of day, camera position, etc.
Sonny has been doing very well with his latest style of exercises & he can now rear & do a 360 spin only touching the ground about 3 times & do rollbacks almost leaping in the air. I know this isn't good for reining style work but I'm just trying to find a way to engage his HQ, strengthen his loins & lighten his FQ in a way he feels good about doing. Hopefully some of the new strength will stick permanently. Thankyou LCH there's hope for me & Sonny yet then!!
Carol when I do yo-yo a lot he just stops........ then tells me if I can't make up my mind where I want him, he's just gunna stay in one place!
However if I really get after him & fire him up he will give me good work as happened this morning. When my filly is in season he just can't be away from her so he was acting very herd bound this morning. He poo'd at the backgate gate wanting to get out(a no-no place! my horses are house trained!  ) so I had to yell at the poo. He got really wide eyed & stood to attention because that was the first time he had done a no-no himself (seen the others have their poos yelled at tho!) & he got really upset.
I was just about to do HT with him so I decided to capitalize on that emotion & asked for just 3mins of quality no questions asked circles, no stuffing around type work. And that's just what he gave me. I clicked his good efforts often & he tried harder for longer.
He CAN do these things but chooses not to. I just think he is a perfectly lazy horse & it takes a mamouth effort to get him properly energized. It's a case of MAKE ME.
After our session this morning he was REALLY keen to get out so when I opened the gate he was overly willing to get going
He took off at a gallop straight down the hill, streeked off like a racehorse, back feet wide apart & full power to the ground & no kicking up at me as he left. No legs flailing or head & rump bobing up in the air or lurching this way & that as usually happens as he makes his way down the hill. No, this time he was properly balanced, focused & powered & when he got to the other horses down in the creekline he reared & pranced like a LBEEEEEEE. Then showed me a big white face with fully pricked ears which is quite unusual for him. Usually if he is looking back up the hill towards me at the gate, it's a sideways stance with half an eye at best with 1 cocked ear only. So I believe I am slowly making headway but as I have learned, I need to change the exercises often before he decides to change them for me.
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| Autumn |
When I was in Mexico, They rode the young horses in one of these "skirts" it was made of thick leather, and had hundreds of heavy 1" rings through the leather around the bottom. I thought maybe it was some bullfighting armor, but The instructor told me it was to teach a horse to use his hindquarters. Carol, have you seen theses? What are they called?
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
We call them "rear end collectors" although some call them skirts.
Here is a simpler version. I was given one like this. 
You can also tie the horse's tail over to the side of the saddle and they will tuck their butt. |
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| Julie |
perry wood said that he had a problem with a horse that did not stop with its back end engaged. The rider was very kind, so he put out a pole and told the rider that as she approached it, there was a cliff the other side and if they did not stop her darling horse would die. she stopped with the back end engaged.
Also, when you get a good halt, walk straight on and you should get a good first step. Probably not thinking here, ut why does he have to step with a hind foot first anyway? As long as the hind end engages, he may need to step with a front foot first?? |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Julie, the difference is that if they step with a front foot first you have the front end pulling the back end behind it. If they step with a back foot first, it is pushing the front end a head of it. Think of it as the difference of pulling or pushing a wheelbarrow.
A lot of people start their horses by lifting the reins...this starts the front end first. If you use your legs instead, you start the back end first. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I thought I better add a note about rear end collectors, IF you ever put one on your horse (they are pretty easy to jerry-rig one) make SURE you put it on and lunge the horse first to get used to it. Some horses don't care for them and things can get pretty western! 
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