Archive for It's About The Horse The Free Forum for those Doing Parelli - and a whole lot More! "Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful." Xenophon (430-355 B.C.),          It's About The Horse Forum Index -> Medical and Nutrition Discussions fairhavenranch Building Topline In Recovering Underweight Horse I'm trying to get some weight on one of our horses who had a difficult winter.  I am using a great fat supplement and have increased her hay and she is doing very well.   However, her topline is not coming along like I would like to see it.  She is getting fat deposits everywhere she should be but I need to get some muscle on her topline.  I don't want to work her yet until she has gained more weight.  I think she needs more protein but we only feed grass here and she does not do well on alfalfa (hot).  There is no alfalfa right now anyway.   I am thinking about trying lysine to see if she can better utilize the protein she does digest until I can get some alfalfa for her. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks, Traci Leah Tri Amino by Uckele   HorseHealer Topline on horses There are free YouTube video's to watch on yoga for your horses-how to develop the horse from the ground before riding them. http://www.youtube.com/user/HolisticHorseWorks ElaineC Re: Topline on horses HorseHealer wrote: There are free YouTube video's to watch on yoga for your horses-how to develop the horse from the ground before riding them. http://www.youtube.com/user/HolisticHorseWorks Very cool, watching her videos now... Julie You won't get topline muscle without working the horse, just put a little extra fat on so as you have something to build the muscle out of PasoBaby_CarolU I agree with Julie.  I've had good luck adding fat.   A horse burns fat before it burns carbs (don't you wish WE did!) and a nice high-fat diet helps a lot.  You can add fat in the form of corn oil (cheapest) but I find the horses prefer a high fat formulated feed.   I've used Purina Equi-glow and Nutrena Empower, both would good results. fairhavenranch We did not want to work her until her weight had increased enough that she could afford to burn some calories.  She is full in the ribs now and getting a little crest on her neck.  The vet said yesterday we could start working her. The vet also said we could cut her feed back but I want more bloom on her before winter sets in as we are facing another year with a hay shortage and a predicted hard winter.  I don't want to cut her feed back and start working her at the same time either, right before winter.   She has been on a high fat extruded feed for months now. We have been unable to get any alfalfa here due to lost cuttings because of the weather so she is just on straight grass. Previously I was feeding her grass but bringing her in and giving her alfalfa with her fat supplement. HorseHealer Feeding corn oil to horses-bad Horses Do not have a gall bladder-like humans-to digest this type of fat-so instead feeding it blocks the horses ability to absorb the water soluable vitamins A D E your major anti oxidant is E. It will just give you a fat UNHEALTHY horse so please do not feed oils to horses. Make sure the horses teeth have been checked/floated so they can chew their feed well and add a daily liquid not dried probiotic. ElaineC I still like the Hill Therapy to develop topline and get a horse going again, or light cavaletti work at slow gaits. fairhavenranch ElaineC wrote: I still like the Hill Therapy to develop topline and get a horse going again, or light cavaletti work at slow gaits. That's the plan.  I am going to start working her at liberty in the round corral and gradually add ground poles to be sure she still knows where her feet are and then move up from there to some land we have on a slight grade. Carol: Any exercises you like in particular for gaited horse toplines?  This is one of my Pasos. PasoBaby_CarolU Re: Feeding corn oil to horses-bad HorseHealer wrote: Horses Do not have a gall bladder-like humans-to digest this type of fat-so instead feeding it blocks the horses ability to absorb the water soluable vitamins A D E your major anti oxidant is E. It will just give you a fat UNHEALTHY horse so please do not feed oils to horses. Make sure the horses teeth have been checked/floated so they can chew their feed well and add a daily liquid not dried probiotic. That is not true.  Horses do not have gall bladders but DO digest fat just fine.   There are tons of fats in horses' normal diets, seeds, nuts, corn, grains, all contain fat.   Oils are just extruded fat in a more concentrated form.   The only oils that horses do not digest are mineral oils and that is WHY mineral oil is used for colic.  It goes right through.   Quote: Feeding Fat for Energy and Performance by: Karen Briggs July 01 1997, Article # 688 If there was a nutritional buzzword that was started in the '90s, it was fat. We fitness-conscious (and frequently overweight) North Americans still might not fully understand the differences between "good" cholesterol and "bad" cholesterol, but we all know how to count our fat grams! While we struggle to keep our diets as low-fat as possible, fat has a different focus when it comes to our horses because it's only in recent years that we've recognized the value of raising the fat level in an equine athlete's diet. Of course, the average human diet (at least in North America) contains well over that recommended 30 grams of fat per day that nutritionists enthusiastically endorse. The horse's natural diet, in contrast, contains almost no natural fat at all. Forages and fibers contribute none, and most grains fed to horses only contain between 2% and 3.5% fat overall. While this leaves the horse at low risk for cardiovascular clogging, it does mean that, traditionally, carbohydrates have been considered the obvious and "natural" energy source for performance horses, and fat rarely has been considered, beyond that little splash of corn oil that's considered good for a shiny coat. Only in the last couple of decades have we begun to realize that fat is also a valuable energy source--and one with many advantages. Why Feed Fat? High-fat diets (anything over and above the 2% to 3.5% supplied by a standard grain-plus-forage diet) provide several perks, most notably in terms of energy production for high-level equine performance. Pound for pound, fat supplies almost 2 1/2 times as much energy as the equivalent weight of carbohydrates or starches (traditionally supplied by grains such as oats, corn, or barley). So, if you want to supply more energy to your horse without increasing his overall feed intake, supplementing the fat in his diet can be an excellent way to accomplish that. Fat also is easily metabolized by horses, despite the fact that their digestive systems (best adapted for the processing of fiber) didn't evolve to deal with it. Studies have shown that as much as 20% overall fat in the diet is well tolerated by horses, with no ill effects noted. Indeed, fat might well be easier for horses to digest than carbohydrates, as it has been demonstrated that a fat-supplemented diet, unlike a high-carbohydrate diet, has no effect on the pH of the cecum (and thus no detrimental effect on the beneficial microflora inhabiting the large intestine). Fat appears to be absorbed almost exclusively in the small intestine. Another interesting fat digestion fact is that horses can utilize fats well despite the fact that they have no gall bladder. In most mammals, the gall bladder excretes bile and salts to help break down fats, but in horses, the liver seems to take over that function, with no fat digestion problems that research has been able to identify. Fat-supplemented diets also have been shown to decrease the amount of energy used for heat production in the horse's body. This decreases the horse's heat load, and increases the amount of energy available for physical activity. In one study where horses were fed a fat-supplemented diet, the horse's total body heat production decreased by 14%, and the diet had no effect on the amount of energy needed for maintenance metabolism, therefore leaving more energy available for performance requirements (or for energy storage in the form of glycogen or fat). As a result, 60% more energy was available for physical activity (regardless of the ambient temperature or the horse's body condition score at the time). Gary Potter, PhD, of Texas A & M University, is a leading equine nutrition researcher who has focused much of his work on the effects of feeding supplemental fat levels to horses. "Virtually every piece of research published," he affirms, "indicates that there are no detrimental effects to feeding fat. It's beneficial physiologically in a number of ways. The only reason a person would not want to put some extra fat in the diet is if the horse doesn't find it palatable." Some of the most compelling research behind fat is that which demonstrates a fat-supplemented diet's benefits for high-performance horses (in sports such as three-day eventing, racing, endurance racing, polo, and cutting). To understand how fat acts as a performance enhancer, we first have to understand some exercise physiology basics. Dietary Fat For Athletic Performance Grains, the "traditional" feed for high-level physical activity, are suppliers of carbohydrates and starches--versatile energy substrates that fuel the horse's muscles for athletic endeavors of all kinds. Fat also is an energy substrate, which while not as flexible as carbohydrates in terms of the types of activities it can fuel, can in many ways help the horse's body use itself more efficiently and with less fatigue. There are two main energy pathways by which a horse's muscle cells are fueled to do work. (A third pathway, called "anaerobic alactic" metabolism, or sometimes "phosphogen" metabolism, is a start-up system that only comes into play for bursts of hundredths of a second.) The predominant energy pathway is aerobic metabolism, which the muscles use whenever they can, for all low-intensity and endurance activities, especially those requiring a continuous effort of longer than two minutes (and possibly lasting many hours). Blood glucose, which is derived from carbohydrates and starches when they are broken down in the gut, is the main energy substrate for aerobic metabolism, and muscle cells will draw on blood glucose as needed. Oxygen is the fuel used to burn the glucose in order to produce ATP (adenosine triphosphate, the "energy molecule") along with the non-toxic byproducts water and carbon dioxide. Blood glucose levels are regulated by insulin, which responds to high blood glucose levels (as happens two to three hours after a high-carbohydrate meal) by increasing and converting excess glucose to glycogen, the form in which it is stored in muscle, fat, and liver cells. Another hormone, glucagon, can reverse the process, converting glycogen back into glucose and releasing it into the blood. The process, while efficient, is not foolproof--in particular, insulin can spike in response to a large load of carbohydrates being introduced, causing large amounts of blood glucose to be converted to glycogen and stored away; this can leave a horse hypoglycemic and feeling weak and fatigued. As long as a horse stays below a certain performance threshold (which can vary somewhat depending on the horse's activity, conformation, muscle bulk, and degree of fitness), he can work aerobically. It's essentially a "clean-burning" system, which horses can maintain indefinitely, as long as fuel continues to come in on a regular basis. Thus, it's the least taxing to the system. But, as blood glucose drops and glycogen is drawn upon, then depleted, fatigue can set in and force the horse's body to switch to another energy pathway. During high-intensity activity exercise of short duration, or when glycogen depletion no longer allows a horse to work aerobically, his muscles will utilize anaerobic lactic metabolism. Sprint-type activities of about 10 seconds to two minutes in length are typical anaerobic activities--barrel racing is a good example. When the aerobic system is working near its full capacity, the anaerobic system will also "kick in" like a supercharger, augmenting rather than replacing the aerobic metabolism. The anaerobic lactic system is entirely dependent on stored glycogen in the muscles as an energy source. It is far less efficient a system than aerobic metabolism in terms of the ATP produced per molecule of glycogen, and so it depletes glycogen rapidly. It also has a toxic byproduct, lactic acid, which is the payoff for that sudden burst of energy. Lactic acid is usually swept away from the muscles by the bloodstream, but if a horse is exercising at high intensity, the rate of production can exceed the rate of removal, allowing lactic acid buildup in the muscles. The point at which lactic acid begins to build up is called the anaerobic threshold (occurring at a heart rate of 140 to 150 beats per minute), and it is a major contributor to fatigue and subsequent performance reduction. In the short term, lactic acid accumulation lowers the pH within the muscles, inhibiting enzyme action. In the longer term, it can damage muscle fibers and create muscle stiffness that develops after exercise. Pushing back that anaerobic threshold is a major focus of performance enhancement, and that's where fat comes in. When fat is broken down in the digestive tract, it becomes fatty acids--which can fuel aerobic metabolism, but not anaerobic. Adding fat to the diet provides a second source with which the body can continue to work aerobically, delaying the switch-over to anaerobic metabolism, and thus postponing lactic acid buildup, fatigue, and performance decreases. Studies have indicated that if the system has supplemental levels of fat available as an energy source, it can "learn" to use it in preference to glycogen, thus increasing the amount of muscle glycogen the horse maintains. Horses fed a high-fat diet also appear to have better muscle glycogen utilization during anaerobic (sprint-type) activities, and no change in their blood glucose concentration (and thus their insulin concentration) while working anaerobically. During aerobic (endurance-type) activity, the same horses showed less decrease in their blood glucose concentration than did horses fed a traditional grain diet, and there was muscle glycogen sparing (less utilization of stored glycogen). This glycogen sparing helps delay fatigue, an important factor in performance enhancement. As a racing sage once observed, it isn't so much which horse is going the fastest at the end of the race--it's more about which horse is slowing down the fastest! Horses fed high-fat diets (15% added soy oil) appear to perform better than those fed either a high-starch diet (40%) or a high-protein diet (25%). This increased performance was noted for both high-speed activities (racing) and moderate-speed activities (fast trot/slow canter speeds of about five meters per second). The increase in performance was judged in terms of the blood glucose concentration (which decreased less, and for a shorter duration) and in terms of plasma lactate (lactic acid) levels, which were substantially lower than those found in horses on high-carbohydrate diets. These benefits might produce only subtle results--but even a gain of a few feet on a racetrack might result in a Derby win. Even at lower levels of performance, the change can be valuable. For example, a low-goal polo player might find that his horse can recover more quickly, and perhaps be able to play one more chukker. Caveats All of this information is not saying that fat is a miracle ingredient. The body must "learn" to use fat as an energy source, a process that requires considerable metabolic adaptation, according to Potter. "The muscle cells have to adapt to fat as a fuel source, and that can take three to four weeks," he observes. "In fact, the blood chemistry may continue to adapt for up to six weeks. What this means is that you can't just start feeding fat the day of the big race and see results. You not only have to put him on the fat-supplemented diet a good month in advance, but you also have to challenge the system so that it begins to adapt. For a racehorse, that means you have to race him on the new diet, not just train him conservatively, in order to help him begin to assimilate the new energy source." As nice as it might be to contemplate improving further on the benefits of feeding fat by feeding greater amounts--perhaps eliminating grain altogether--unfortunately, it just doesn't work that way. Remember that only carbohydrates can fuel the anaerobic system of metabolism, which all horses use to some degree in their work. Also, forages alone provide a minimum of carbohydrates. (Fed by itself, forages provide plenty of fuel for maintenance metabolism, but not enough, for the vast majority of horses, to do the work we ask of them.) Grain in the diet is an important fuel source for any performance horse, and Potter notes that in his nine years of study of supplemental fat diets, it was confirmed that high-fat diets work best in conjunction with fairly high grain diets, for maximum benefit in hard-working horses (such as 100-mile endurance racers, Thoroughbred and Standardbred racehorses, and upper-level three-day event horses). "You do have to make sure there's enough carbohydrate in the diet, too," he says. "The combination of grains and fats should make up half the total diet, by weight, or even a little more, if you're feeding a horse who's really working hard." So what level of fat is optimum for a performance benefit? Potter recommends a level of 10% (by weight) of the total daily diet, though John Burton, PhD, an equine nutritionist at the University of Guelph in Ontario, suggests that slightly lower levels might be more appropriate for horses working at a lower level of intensity. The level of fat you choose will depend somewhat on the activity you're asking your horse to perform. Some studies have indicated that levels up to 15% are beneficial for horses which are involved in intense, long-term endurance activities (chiefly competitive trail and endurance racing, and upper-level three-day eventing). However, even a level of 6-8% will result in some performance benefit for horses involved in more moderate activity. Other Perks For the vast majority of us who are dealing with horses not at the cutting-edge of high performance, feeding fat can be well worth considering for reasons other than performance enhancement. First, it's true that supplemental levels of fat can enhance the quality and shine of the hair coat, giving your horse a healthy glow that reflects particularly well in the show ring. Supplemental fat also can help put or keep weight on a "hard keeper," provided he is not in heavy work. Just as we do (far too efficiently, sometimes), horses will store excess fat in the adipose tissues--so for plumping up a skinny horse, added fat is an excellent solution that carries far less risk of stomach upset and other complications than does a switch to a high-carbohydrate diet. Older horses also can benefit from a high-fat diet. As the condition of their teeth starts to deteriorate and their digestive efficiency begins to wane, easily digested fat can help prevent them from losing condition and becoming ribby. Broodmares, too, can reap the rewards of added fat. Studies have indicated that a mare which recently has gained some condition (easily achieved by feeding added fat for a month or two before breeding) might get in foal more easily and maintain her pregnancy with less difficulty (if she was not obese to begin with). In addition, a high-fat diet can help her deal with the stress of lactation, which can be considerable. A third perk is that her milk will be higher in fat (mare's milk being fairly low to begin with), and as a result, her foal will tend to gain weight and condition more easily. Fat is often touted as an ingredient that provides energy without the "hotness" that carbohydrates provide--so it is sometimes recommended in an effort to calm a hot horse. Unfortunately, this perk is a myth. As experts in both human and equine research have noted, carbohydrates are falsely accused of causing a sugar high, and so substituting fat for a portion of the grain being fed will make no difference to a horse's temperament or attitude. Potter surmises that the idea of horses getting "hot" from high-grain diets has more to do with their being in hard training at the same time their grain ration is increased than it does with any physiological effects on a horse's manners. "When you're exercising vigorously, you feel good, and you have more energy," he says. "The fact that you're getting more groceries is coincidental." How To Feed Fat Adding fat to your horse's diet can be done in a number of ways, and Potter says that practically any digestible source of fat, either vegetable or animal, can be used. The only source he does not recommend is the rumen-protectant variety of fat that is designed for cattle, which horses will find at best indigestible, and at worst, toxic. It's interesting to note that horses actually can digest fat from animal sources (such as tallow) very well, and animal-fat products generally are much less expensive than comparable vegetable fats or oils. However, animal fats seldom are used in horse rations for two reasons: First, at room temperature, they usually are solids, so they must be heated to liquid in order to mix with a grain ration; second, their palatability is generally low (try to get a horse to eat something that smells like bacon grease!). Of the vegetable sources of fats (which usually come in the form of oils), corn and soy oil are traditional favorites, and are available at most feed mills as well as many supermarkets. Other vegetable oils are just as suitable, however, although many horse owners avoid canola oil as its palatability isn't as good as some of the others. Top-dressing your horse's grain ration with oil is a simple process of measuring and pouring--but like any feed additive, it should be introduced gradually, over a period of two to three weeks. There also are other feed additives that are relatively high-fat, most notably rice bran, which has gained considerable popularity in parts of the United States. Rice bran products, which come either as a powder or as an extruded pellet, are approximately 22% fat, which means you have to feed considerably more of them to get the same benefits as you would from a 100% fat product such as vegetable oil. Rice bran has the advantage of being much more stable, however, and is often preferred in warm, humid climates where oils and animal fats tend to go rancid very quickly. Extruded soybeans, another high-fat product, are good for young growing horses because they also are a good protein source; they're not as appropriate, for that same reason, for mature animals. One of the simplest ways to add fat to your horse's diet is to choose a commercial grain ration that is fat-supplemented. Many feed companies now offer these products, usually as part of their premium line, and the feeds often are equipped with extra anti-oxidants to prevent spoilage, a management perk. Look for a crude fat level of 8-10% on the label (and if your horse is a mature animal not being used for breeding, a protein content of 10-12% at most), and introduce it gradually to your horse's diet. If your horse objects to top-dressed oil or rice bran, a commercial product (in which the fat is disguised) might be the best way to go. Whatever way you decide to add fat to your horse's diet, you must consider how it will affect the overall nutrient balance of his daily ration. "You have to adjust the feed intake for the increased energy intake," says Potter. "Otherwise, the horse gets fat, which is counterproductive to his training." But in the process of cutting back on your horse's grain, you also reduce the concentration of vitamins and minerals he receives. Potter stresses that it is very important, when making this change, to work with an equine nutritionist (whom you can contact through your feed dealer, local veterinary college, or state extension service) to make the necessary adjustments so that your horse doesn't get cheated out of essential minerals, like calcium and phosphorus. You might have to consider adding a supplement to compensate for these losses. If you're feeding a commercial ration that is a premium product, you might not have to worry about deficiencies of vitamins and minerals, since many of these are deliberately designed with an excess of most nutrients. If you decide to go with an all-inclusive, high-fat feed, the feed company has likely already done the ration balancing for you. Consult with your equine nutritionist to be sure. One thing fat is not going to do is make feeding any cheaper--pound for pound, it usually works out about as expensive, if not a little more so, than a comparable quantity of carbohydrates. "Is it cost-effective?" says Pott Mandy'sMarty Re: Feeding corn oil to horses-bad PasoBaby_CarolU wrote: HorseHealer wrote: Horses Do not have a gall bladder-like humans-to digest this type of fat-so instead feeding it blocks the horses ability to absorb the water soluable vitamins A D E your major anti oxidant is E. It will just give you a fat UNHEALTHY horse so please do not feed oils to horses. Make sure the horses teeth have been checked/floated so they can chew their feed well and add a daily liquid not dried probiotic. That is not true.  Horses do not have gall bladders but DO digest fat just fine.   There are tons of fats in horses' normal diets, seeds, nuts, corn, grains, all contain fat.   Oils are just extruded fat in a more concentrated form.   I think what April was saying is that there is a big difference between the type of fat source when applied to the horse's diet. Fat from fractionated oils (separated from their protein components and enzymes) is not necessarily as healthy as fat from natural horse food sources i.e. grass seed heads. Read what Judy Sinner of Dynamite Marketing has to say: Feeding Oils - not! Pliable, healthy hooves require some fat in the diet. Note that this is fat, not oil! Horses do not have a gall bladder, the organ in humans and other mammals (deer being the only other exception) which produces bile that emulsifies fats and oils for digestion. Fats are assimilated directly by the lacteal ducts in the intestine of a horse, and since these are also the the means by which horses absorb the fat soluble vitamins (A, D, E and K), it stands to reason that if the ducts are clogged with oils, the vitamins are not absorbed. (This is the same phenomenon noted in humans, with the “fake fat” Olestra, and also in people who have had their gall bladder removed). So, there goes the time-honored but flawed practice of feeding oils to horses for coat condition! The suppression of vitamin A and D in the diet means even less calcium will be absorbed as well. In nature, horses are not high fat eaters. The seed heads of the grasses in the spring would be about the most fat that they would encounter, so they are not equipped by nature to deal with high fats in the diet. They are capable of forming volatile fatty acids in the hind gut when their digestion is not compromised by a lot of grain, or too much protein, or sweet feeds, wormers, antibiotics and the like. Supporting digestion with a good probiotic is a great investment in healthy feet and glowing coat. If you do choose to add supplemental fat for your horses, extruded full fat soybeans (preferably organic and non-GMO) would be a great source. This feed supplement contains the fat and protein still in the same package, not fractionated out as in the expeller or solvent extraction methods used to collect the oil, which leave the soybean meal only. And in another article, Judy Sinner writes: We know from Dr. Kellon's previous teachings and also from physiology texts that horses do not have a gall bladder, which is the organ that helps assimilate fats. About the only fats that horses get in nature are the seed heads from grasses, so again they are not designed to be heavy fat eaters. When oils are fractionated (separated from their protein components and enzymes) they are absorbed thru the lacteal ducts in the horse's intestinal tract. These ducts are also the receptor sites for the fat soluble vitamins A, D, E and K, so the oil competes and inhibits the absorption of these key vitamins that relate to calcium assimilation, antioxidant function and blood clotting ability. These omega 6 oils like corn and canola typically fed to horses are also prone to producing inflammatory prostaglandins, so they can contribute to structural deficiency and joint problems when fed for more than a few weeks. (I have always been rather amazed that we see gallon jugs of corn oil at the race tracks where so many horses are arthritic and bleeders...... Animal fats are not appropriate for herbivores, and are nearly always heavily preserved as well PasoBaby_CarolU Believe me, I've read all that before and heard it before.   But, having had good luck with adding fat to my rescue and older horses to gain and maintain weight, I looked farther into the subject, and being a scientist, I have tos say I prefer to read the results of real studies.    Anyone can write something that sounds scientific.   I believe hard science. You need to read the article I posted.  The results of actual studies at Texas A&M.  Horses break down oils in their liver and there appears to be no difference in oils removed from their protein source...such as sunflower seeds vs. sunflower oil.   Even Dr. Kellon recommends Flax Seed Oil - which is extruded from flax seed and contains 5g fat in 1 Teaspoon.  That is a pretty concentrated fat. PasoBaby_CarolU fairhavenranch wrote: Carol: Any exercises you like in particular for gaited horse toplines?  This is one of my Pasos. Yes.   There are two exercises that are really good, one can be done while she is recovering.   Have her circle close in with her head lower (urge her head down with rein pressure and release) and her body arced around you, so she has to step under with her inside hind leg.   Walk with her as she circles so you get a nice bend.   You can work up to 10 minutes of this a day.   Don't forget to do both directions and I'd do a few circles one way and then the other, otherwise you get dizzy.   This is a basic exercise I do with all my horses.   The other great exercise is cantering, but you don't want to do much of that until she is getting pretty healthy.   If she's getting fat deposits, it is probably a good time to start with it. Thunder Hollow Mandy'sMarty The point that I choose to make is not whether or not a horse can digest fat in oils, but whether or not digesting fat from fractionated oils is healthy for the horse. Judy makes the point that when the horse is digesting fractionated oils, it pays a price by not being able to efficiently absorb the fat soluble vitamins (A,D,E, & K). And that horses fed Omega 6 oils like Corn and Canola are also prone to producing inflammatory prostaglandins, contributing to structural deficiency and joint problems when fed for more than a few weeks. As I recall, Regan Golob also makes this case about the association of Omega 6 oils and inflammatory issues in horses. I believe Regan first saw this on the track soon after graduating from chiropractic studies when he began his career as a successful trainer and owner of race horses in Kentucky. Carol---I did read the article you posted. It does not appear to address these issues that represent the actual Price the horse may pay by digesting fractionated oils over time. I interpret that as a shortcoming in Karen Briggs' article and perhaps Dr. Gary Potter's research. Regarding horses breaking down oils by utilizing their liver (as they don't have a gallbladder)---makes me wonder what price they pay over time when their liver is busy with oils at the same time the body is attempting to defend itself from a toxic assault from another source. Thunder Hollow---Regarding Judy's writings about "regimes based on "what feels good to me" ": Perhaps you are referring to 'muscle testing' aka 'applied kinesiology'. If so, I have found it to be an effective way of 'asking the horse' what is needed. When in doubt, Regan always says to just 'ask the horse'. If I misinterpreted your comment, my apologies. I am a student of the horse and I have studied with Judy and Regan. They have waaaaay more experience with horse nutrition than I have. I respect results and I have experienced noticeable improvements in my mare's vitality following their direction. Perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Marty Thunder Hollow karmikacres Leah wrote: Tri Amino by Uckele   We're with Leah here. We add the Tri Amino ingredients into our custom mix with good results. It is Lysine, Threonine and Methionine - all essential amino acids. Karen PasoBaby_CarolU Thank you Ann, you said it very well.  I want to see the research that shows feeding horses oils creates these imbalances or that horses health is adversely affected from a higher fat diet.   Show me the research, not just someone saying it. This is what Dr. Kellon has to say about fat. Quote: I  can see there's still a lot of confusion over fat - types and amounts. 1. EFAs EFAs are essential fatty acids, fat forms that the mammalian body cannot synthesize for itself and must be present in the diet. Plants do synthesize their own EFAs. Convenient system! Seeds and nuts are the richest plant sources (in terms of the concentration in the whole food), followed by grains. The walls of living plants/grasses also contain EFAs, but they are rapidly lost when the plant is cut and dried. We don't know the horse's requirement for EFAs in terms of amount, or the relative ratio of omega-6 (linoleic) to omega-3 (linolenic). The ratio in a natural diet of live plant sources is probably heavier on the omega-6. However, omega-3 requirements increase with inflammatory conditions, chronic disorders/diseases, high sugar or trans fat intake (more on trans fat later). I'm currently shooting for about a 50:50 ratio in IR horses, even a little heavier on the omega-3 if there are active problems like allergies or laminitis. EFAs are EXTREMELY fragile. Processing of oils to be stable on a store shelf destroys them. Exposure to light, heat, oxygen rapidly destroys them. It is possible to but cold pressed (expellers) oils that retain high levels of EFAs but they come in heavy/dark glass bottles and must be kept refrigerated. The best sources currently available are low temperature stabilized rice bran and flaxseed. The oil in rice bran contains about 35% omega-6, 5% or less omega-3 and flax runs about 15% omega-6, 55% omega-3. A 50:50 blend of the two is therefore close to even amounts of both EFAs, just a tad higher on omega-3s. As mentioned, requirement in grams is really unknown. There are a few products on the market that combine flax and rice bran into one supplement. McCauley Brothers Mega-Bran (http://www.feedrite.com/equine/mcc/megabran.pdf) - very nicely mineral balanced so can't use it for balancing beet pulp but otherwise looks very good. Contains only rice bran, flax, vitamins and minerals. Uckele Equi Omega Complex (www.uckele.com but may not be on web site yet). Am waiting for full analysis on this product, including the EFA levels. Also contains distillers dried grains (run about the same NSC as rice bran and flaxseed, other nuts and seeds), CocoSoya, some beet pulp. Highly palatable. TDI (www.tdihorsefeeds.com) TDI Competition Conditioner. Need more info on this product since the extrusion process generates a good bit of heat which could destroy the EFAs. 2. Stabilized fats. Oils you buy on a store shelf, and oils added to feeds, weight gain products, added fat rice brans are all stabilized (unless it's CocoSoya) and have the EFAs destroyed. Stabilization can also change the structure of the fats, producing hydrogenated or partially hydrogenated forms, and trans fats. I really don't want to get into the political debate about stabilized/trans fats as a health risk but suffice it to say that they have been recognized as such in Europe for decades (including in relation to heart disease, diabetes/IR), and the FDA is finally getting around to requiring label information on human foods. These fats are not in a natural form. Personally, I avoid them. 3. Cold pressed/expellers and "virgin" oils. Soy, coconut, olive and rice bran oils can be processed to retain their natural fats and remain reasonably stable. The EFA profiles, omega-6:omega-3 of these oils is as follows: Soy: 42:11 Olive: 12:0 Rice bran: 35:0-5 Coconut: 4:0 Soy oil is a reasonable replacement for rice bran oil, but othewise these oils obviously aren't going to help your horse's EFA situation much. Olive oil is high in monounsaturated fats. In other species, the replacement of other fat types with monounsaturated fats, in a high fat diet, can improve TG, cholesterol and IR. However, that doesn't mean that adding them to a low fat diet will have that effect. Small amounts of olive oil haven't seemed to have much easily identified effect in IR equine diets, but at least it should be safe to use and can be used to increase appeal. Coconut oil is highly palatable (e.g. CocoSoya - a blend of coconut and soy) and is high in MCTs. MCT = medium chain triglycerides, a form of saturated fat. This isn't the same as other forms of saturated fat that people are instructed to avoid (e.g. palm oil, meats). MCTs are different because they can be utilized directly as energy sources by the cells - at least the cells of other mammals. No equine specific data is available. Since CocoSoya is 100% fat, 1 oz of this oil = 3 to 4 oz of rice bran in terms of fat and 1/2 the EFA content but it cannot balance beet pulp because it does not contain any minerals. All liquid fats are 100% fat, no minerals, vitamins only as naturally present in the oil (primarily vitamin E forms). If using CocoSoya, to balance it correctly add 2 oz of ground stabilized flax for each ounce of CocoSoya fed and do not feed rice bran. In short, you need to add fat to get your Omega 3's and 6's. HorseHealer Feeding Equines oils blocking vitamins A D and E absorption So the oil feeders are not concerned that it blocks the horses bodies ability to absorb these important nutrients...sad...someone needs to pay for blood work up on oil-not normal fat in a horses diet-fed horse and see where these levels are..anyone interested...or just ignore it? The liquid probiotics is a better way to go-getting the gut flora up to 100% to break down and utilize better what the horse is already eating. Soaking grass hay pellets for older horses that get tired of chewing. Still top line development is best done with the simple 5 min yoga excersizes on the free utube channel. A horse can travel crooked-lazy-lungeing -hills does not fix this-doing yoga brings the whole body into balance and they learn to carry themselves better. Mandy'sMarty Ann--Unfortunately, there appears to be little research supporting much of what Regan and Judy promote. Who's going to fund the studies? I've been experimenting with muscle testing for almost 25 years...so it's what I'm used to. It's taken me about that long to get out of my extreme left brain mode of tackling problems/information. A few years ago I met a chiropractor, an applied kinesiologist, who helped change my life. The information he got by using muscle testing as a diagnostic tool on my body was amazing. And then when I more recently met Regan, well...the results when working on horses were immediate and remarkable. My life was changed again, in a very profound way. I can't quickly explain how it works, any better than I can explain how the lights go on when I flip the appropriate switch. What I do know is that it involves trust, and experiencing the world and everything in it as being interconnected in the web of life. It involves field theory and quantum physics. It may not be easy...but it is simple, and it works for me. Interesting admission about your easy keeper and your reluctance to add oil to his diet. I would say that you are listening...listening to your gut, to your horse, to your higher self, to unseen guides, to the cosmic muffin out there controlling the universe...to whatever you want to call it. Easy for me to say. It gets tricky when you don't quite trust it yet. To answer the original post, it really depends on what the specific mare's priority issue is. Perhaps her most critical issue is adding some weight now before harsher, colder weather arrives. Perhaps the quickest way to achieve this with her is with oil in her diet. I would be concerned about the long term affects of simply adding oil. Marty Thunder Hollow Re: Feeding Equines oils blocking vitamins A D and E absorpt Leah Goodness it is NOT that complicated. Add fat for weight gain-natural sources if at all possible. If you need some oil  be my guest but start with NATURAL sources first. Black oil seeds, flax seed, etc. If you need muscle you add quality protein-most horses can't get enough of this for enough 'quality protein' so you add amino acids...Tri Amino is a fantastic product. If you need stamina add carbs. Quite simple. You don't need muscle testing, gallons of oil or woo woo...just common sense. That said ALLLLLllllll the nutrients in the world won't BUILD muscle-hard ass work does that. The nutrients give the body the fuel to build. PasoBaby_CarolU Re: Feeding Equines oils blocking vitamins A D and E absorpt HorseHealer wrote: So the oil feeders are not concerned that it blocks the horses bodies ability to absorb these important nutrients...sad...someone needs to pay for blood work up on oil-not normal fat in a horses diet-fed horse and see where these levels are..anyone interested...or just ignore it? The liquid probiotics is a better way to go-getting the gut flora up to 100% to break down and utilize better what the horse is already eating. Soaking grass hay pellets for older horses that get tired of chewing. Still top line development is best done with the simple 5 min yoga excersizes on the free utube channel. A horse can travel crooked-lazy-lungeing -hills does not fix this-doing yoga brings the whole body into balance and they learn to carry themselves better. Show me the research that shows oil blocks the ability to absorb nutrients.   As I read Dr. Kellon's report, the horse NEEDS fat added to the diet. Show me the research that probiotics are going to help with the Omega 3 and omega 6 deficiency.  I have no doubt that adding them (may) help the horse better digest their food, but it still depends on what food the horse is being fed.  It can't make fat where fat doesn't exist. Mandy'sMarty Awww come on, Leah. Let's make this complicated! Thunder Hollow fairhavenranch Leah wrote: Goodness it is NOT that complicated. Thank God. Add fat for weight gain-natural sources if at all possible. If you need some oil  be my guest but start with NATURAL sources first. Black oil seeds, flax seed, etc. The extruded pellet she is on is a blend of vegetable oils, including flax. If you need muscle you add quality protein-most horses can't get enough of this for enough 'quality protein' so you add amino acids...Tri Amino is a fantastic product. That was my point in my original post.  We can't get quality protein (alfalfa) right now so I wanted to know if adding amino acids would help her utilize the protein she is getting from her grass hay. If you need stamina add carbs. Race horse=oats.  Got it. Quite simple. You don't need muscle testing, gallons of oil or woo woo...just common sense. Thank you, thank you , thank you. That said ALLLLLllllll the nutrients in the world won't BUILD muscle-hard ass work does that. The nutrients give the body the fuel to build. That's the plan - continue to feed her up and start working her. Whew!  I'm gonna go have a "cosmic muffin" now with my afternoon tea before someone's feelings get hurt. Thanks everybody for your input! Leah Traci what EXACTLY is your horse currently eating. Name of product and how much. How much grass How much hay All in pounds if possible. You also need to balance the minerals. You can post or PM me and I am happy to look over the diet as a whole fairhavenranch Thank you, Leah. I added the amino acids as you and Karen mentioned.  This mare is actually an easy keeper.  She had a dental problem that happened over winter and she just went down hill fast.  I have managed to raise her body condition score two points in the last 4 months and I am pleased with that with the exception of the topline.  Just want to improve her topline with out taking from her caloric needs with winter approaching and in the absence of high quality protein. Thanks, Traci PasoBaby_CarolU Traci, my grass analysis came back as low in energy too.   It (with Purina LightSolve) balances Bien just fine, but is low in protein and fat for my other horses.  I added a concentrate (Nutrena Empower) to raise the protein level.   It's expensive but you don't feed much - 1/2 lb/day.   It worked to balance their rations. fairhavenranch Thanks, Carol.  We will reevaluate balancing the ration when we get out regular hay supply back again. carefreegirl Well said Leah, really like it! You do need fat in order to get the fat soluble vitamins, as well as those important omegas that Pasobaby was talking about. Oh and from my anat and phys class--horses do produce bile-- their livers do that. Horses are designed to eat constantly that is the reason they don't have gallbladders, they don't need to store as much bile like we do inbetween meals. (People produce bile in the liver (just like horses do), but we also store bile in the gall bladder.) For biulding a top line, I like: pole work/grid work, low jumping (~18" to 2'), hill therapy, and lots of long and low type work, encouraging through release for a 'let loose' posture as Karen Rohlf calls it. HorseHealer Adding organic fat to horses diet Chia seeds and black oil sun flower seeds are a much better source than man made processed oils-ick. As always a liquid probiotic helps the gut utilize the feed source better. Also Dynamite sells a pellet called HES High energy source-does not make a horse hot-whole extruded soybeans-puts the weight on the top of the back instead of the belly. Again the horse yoga excersizes are isometrics to develop topline and can be done in 5 min 2 x a day for people on a busy schedule. Chris Here is my reply to another weight gain post, which I've copied and pasted: There was a Q&A article in the May 2009 issue of Practical Horseman, that is relevant. In this case the question was how to increase appetite......but the answer still dealt with how to get weight onto a horse. One fat supplement recommended is rice bran. To quote Dr. Carey Williams' answer: Quote: "Adding rice bran will increase the fiber and fat content in the feed and create more energy for weight gain without the hyperactivity effect of a high-sugar diet. Your horse could probably get about a pound or two of rice bran per day, but different types vary so it is always good to read the recommendation on the bag. If the rice bran says it is "stabilized," that just means it is fortified with a higher level of calcium because natural rice bran is typically low in calcium." She goes on to say that it is important to be careful when adding fat to the diet, increasing the amount slowly over two or three weeks. Also, she said that a horse who is getting alfalfa hay does not need "stabilized," rice bran, as alfalfa is very high in calcium. Dr. Williams is a Rutger State University scientist who maintains a herd of Standardbreds for exercise physiology research, and is also involved with equine pasture management initiatives, according to the magazine. Hope this helps! Leah I don't, but some people kind of freak out about rice bran. Chris Leah wrote: I don't, but some people kind of freak out about rice bran. Oh? Why is that? I'm curious to know... HorseHealer rice bran yuk-read the fine print on the label of the bag Make sure you read the fine print on the labels of the rice bran product. You might be surprised. kydawn topline If a horse does not have balance -in the head and neck-they will not build topline-- the incisors need to be at the correct angle-the molar tables need to have maximun surface to surface contact at the correct angle, there needs to be unrestricted anterior /posterior  and lateral motion of the jaw and the TMJ needs to be at a relaxed neutral position--when all this is going on-the horse can use its body as nature intended---if not--you get poor topline , upside/down neck muscles, dragging of rear feet, splitting hooves, poor flexion,and the list goes on. Ive seem many horses with all the nutrition in the world available to them with weak toplines. cory KY - thanks for pointing that out.  Since I've been doing research on importance of balanced teeth, it seems that Natural Balance Dentistry is where Jaime Jackson was years ago trying to show people how important it was to use the wild horse hoof model to promote better and balanced hoof care.   Seems it's the same for the teeth - if people would study more on the angles and correct wear of the teeth of wild horses and try to achieve that same balance in domestic horses, there would be healthier horses.   As it is now, there are so many vets and equine dentists doing horrible work in horses' mouths, no real art and skill in balance, and horse owners don't know the difference as most of them can't see what their horse's teeth look like - or even what they are supposed to look like.  And a lot of people do not know the connection between properly balanced teeth, balanced feet/body and muscle mass. You can keep trimming, feeding, having the chiropractor out but unless you have the teeth properly balanced as well, a person might be wasting a lot of money.  Whole horse concept means whole horse - not just the parts you can see. fairhavenranch kydawn & cory:  I would love to know what you would reccommend for resources to learn more about the correlation between dentistry and musculature.  Also about Natural Balance Dentistry. Thanks. cory here's a start http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O_P35tNr5I http://www.equinewellnessmagazine.com/m/0/article1.htm http://www.todayshorse.com/Articles/HorsesMouth.htm http://www.holistichorse.com/inde...id=83:book-reviews&Itemid=133 http://www.equinecraniosacral.com/articles/article2.html A whole list of articles in Natural Horse Magazine: http://www.naturalhorse.com/isearch/index.php Natural Horse Talk (look for segments re dentistry): http://www.naturalhorsetalk.com/recentshows.html PasoBaby_CarolU Hmmmm, I have a to agree that a horse needs healthy teeth to masticate their food properly and get the most nutrition out of it.  Undigested stems in the feces are an indicator of needing dental work.   I might add that those stems can also cause intestinal problems if they irritate the lining of the intestines. I have a few problems with some of this.   First, I don't believe mustangs have perfect teeth....at least not the ones off our local ranges.   Waves, abscesses, hooks...etc.  Our vet routinely goes to the BLM round-up where they do an all day job of trimming feet, floating teeth, vaccinating and worming.   You just really need to go watch this to believe how bad the condition of some of these horses are when they come off the range.   It's easy to 'romanticize' the mustang when you live 5 states away.   It's another to see them every day.   See them lame, see them skinny, see them all chomped up, and see them with broken jaws and legs.   I've also seen them die of colic and have to be shot.   Maybe in an ideal range, wild horses live this idealist life, but Darwin is still adapting them to the desert west, and they don't fare very well in the wild here. I also have to wonder about the balance of the teeth relating to the balance of the horse, being a 'given.'   I've never heard this before, and while I agree that any painful condition in the mouth..hooks, waves, abscesses, etc, can and will affect the horse's movement and attitude, I sincerely doubt an uneven bite makes an uneven gait.  Just look at people's and dogs mouths and you'll see all kinds of uneven teeth not affecting anything.   In an ideal world all horses would have perfectly balanced pastures and move 10 miles or so a day grazing and getting the perfect mix of fiber, vitamins, carbs and minerals.   But let's face it, none of our horses live in a natural environment.  Most horses live in corals or stalls and have to live on hay.  Some horses have metabolic problems that keep them from enjoying ANY pasture time.   I know Nature has a way of killing these horses off, but I can't just do that.   I do agree with keeping the horse's teeth healthy and doing it as humanely as possible. cory Carol - no wonder you are not too impressed with "wild horse model" anything, with the scroungy sounding herd of horses near you.   Kinda makes me wonder why BLM rounds them up routinely to trim/float/vaccinate - that isn't what they usually do with free ranging herds - are they in holding pens?  Then it made me wonder if it's the chicken/egg debate - are they in poor health because they are getting poor floating/hoof trimming?  Or if they're sick with nothing much to eat, then they can't maintain any type of healthy body balance at all.  And I would like to see how the BLM rounds up the wild horses and trim feet/float teeth.  Do they sedate the heck out of them?  I'm sure they run them in stocks, but who in their right mind would try to float a feral horse or trim their feet without quite a lot of sedation in them?  Sounds interesting. Back on topic - hope some people enjoy the links to more information about the teeth and how it can affect musculature.  Always something new to be learned from many different sources. cory Carol - this link is for you.  These shots are mustangs in Utah, some very nice looking ones.  Actually there is one dead horse pictured, and his incisors look pretty darn good.  So there are some decent mustangs somewhere in your state.  From what little can be seen in the photos, their feet look pretty good too.  And look at the topline and musculature of most of those horses. http://www.pbase.com/muddyboots/way_out_west PasoBaby_CarolU cory wrote: Carol - this link is for you.  These shots are mustangs in Utah, some very nice looking ones.  Actually there is one dead horse pictured, and his incisors look pretty darn good.  So there are some decent mustangs somewhere in your state.  From what little can be seen in the photos, their feet look pretty good too.  And look at the topline and musculature of most of those horses. http://www.pbase.com/muddyboots/way_out_west Very beautiful, nice, romantic pictures.  The bad pictures don't make the website I guess.   FYI, the vet is on hand the day they bring the horses in.   They do it this way because the stallions have to be cut right away, otherwise they kill each other.   I rode in one round-up.  It was enough to stop me from doing it again...but I have many friends who do.   Including the man who runs the BLM's program here. I also have another experience with wild horses, herds that lived on our Installation.  I'd see them every day.   I worked in the Environmental Office and we not only had a person who's job it was to track and monitor the horses, we also had to arrange for injured horses to be shot when they needed it.   Believe me, I love wild horses.   I love pictures of them racing across the desert.   I love running into them on trail rides...which I still do.   I just don't romanticize them or their life.   They lead a hard life in a hard land.   Nobody worms them or sprays them with insect repellent.   No one fertilizes or waters the ranges they live on.   Just when winter is at it's worse, they have no shelter and have to dig for very sparse food.   I've seen horses that died of thirst and horses that have died of ???   It's not pretty.   ...and it really isn't the real natural habitat of horses.   Horses are steppe animals.   They're made to live at the edge of icebergs.   Not in hot, dry, rocky, deserts. Leah cory-WOW WOW WOW. Those photos are amazing. Carol-I believe it was in Jaime Jackson's book or somewhere-heck it may have been in a conversation I had with him years ago. Or it may be in something I read from Gene O....ok somewhere. Anyway someone somewhere noted that the horses in the roundups lost health VERY fast. Any limitation on these horses-through movement, changing choice of where to graze, influencing where they go... it would all negatively impact these horses very quickly. The hooves were noted to change within something like 48 horses. So I can see where horses studied in a roundup would not always represent health. As far as balance of the mouth-it actually IS every bit as important as hooves and saddles and nutrition and correct riding. There is a lot of information on that and TMJ in horses. I think Spencer LaFlure has been one of the more vocal and well known dentists in this area, but I am sure there are others. I can have my horses teeth corrected and notice a difference under saddle immediately. cory Carol - I'm not romanticizing.  I simply thought they were nice pictures of some healthy mustangs in the west desert of Utah.  Shows nice feet and topline, most have healthy weight.  There is a picture of one that is a little thin and he's beat up and bloody. Leah - have a look at some of those feet!  Knew you would enjoy those.  I have also read how they lose health very quickly when kept in holding areas, even though very large. PasoBaby_CarolU The round-ups are a day before the holding pen.... Believe whatever you want.  Or come and help the BLM.............once. cory Carol - I'm not doubting what you say a bit, you were there, you saw them.  I was merely illustrating that there are healthy herds.  I'm sure, as you have personally seen, there are areas where they don't fare as well as the ones pictured. PasoBaby_CarolU Cory, there are two reasons I bring this up. 1)  Wild horses do NOT live the romantic, perfect health life that people who are never around them think they do.  They are wormy, scared, up, beaten up, half starved or thirsty, mangy range horses who are just as distantly related to their now extinct North American ancestors as the horses everywhere else are.  Granted, there are a FEW herds who were geographically separated and are still of pure Spanish blood, but even that blood only became 'native' to North America 500 years ago.  There is very little genetic diversity between them and today's pure Spanish horses.    It is the DNA of the pure Spanish horse that is used to identify them.   All the rest of the mustangs (the vast majority) are the descendants of range stock that got away and/or stallions turned loose in the wild to "improve" the local mustangs.   In the 'old days' this is where cowponies came from, the range. 2)  Comparing ANY of it to the "natural environment" for the horse is a fairy tale.   These horses do not live in their natural environment and neither do any of our domestic horses.   That natural environment is gone, 10,000 years gone, and one way or another, man has changed the genetic history of the the wild and domestic horse species.   So even those horses that trace true to Spanish bloodlines, were domesticated and bred for certain traits for thousands of years before being reintroduced to North America. I (obviously) get tired of people bringing up the "Mustang" as the ideal.   Any mustang that doesn't fit THEIR ideal, is thrown out of the data curve for one reason or another (not Spanish descent, held in holding pens, fenced in range, whatever).   Ann can verify this for me, but you can ALWAYS get the answer you want if you throw out all the outlying data points and reduce your standard deviation.   "Don't use that data, it doesn't fit our curve."   It's not real science.  It's subjective.   When people pick the data they want to beliieve it is no longer science...or real. kydawn teeth wow- I am a certified equine dentist in Natural Balance Dentistry-studied under Spencer La Flure, This article explains how it all fits- http://www.advancedwholehorse.com..._Balance_in_the_Equine_Mouth.html From my experience--its not about pretty teeth-its about biomechanical motion of the jaw-and balance Ive seen toplines change drastically in 4 weeks , I work with several barefoot hoof trimmers-when a horse is dragging hind feet- usually due to a problem with anterior posterior motion--with balance square toes become round very rapidly- When a horse has balance-flexion is easy and natural, collection can be achieved -when a horse is out of balance-they may fight the bit-collection may be forced, headset may be hard to maintain, they may have a choppy , uneven gait-turning or lead changes may be easier one way or the other. Cory-great links!! kydawn teeth Our teeth are fairly static--we loose our baby teeth, permanent ones erupt-there may be some movement and changes-but basically we have our teeth In horses--they have caps or baby teeth-those are replaced by permanent teeth which are about 4 inches long and continually erupt and wear throughout the life of the horse--until they are gone.  Therefore the horse's bite is not static-imbalance can occur--and can be addressed PasoBaby_CarolU ....and if they aren't bitted?   How does an uneven bite affect their gait? Look at your own teeth.   Are they perfect?  Do they hurt/   Do they affect how you walk?  Sit?  Jog? Yes...they'll affect how you eat and digest food.  They won't affect how your toenails grow. Leah Carol if you don't want to believe it you won't There is no point with arguing with you when you don't agree. It is the same in hoof discussions or any discussion. No offense intended, just observation. PasoBaby_CarolU Leah wrote: There is no point with arguing with you when you don't agree. It is the same in hoof discussions or any discussion. No offense intended, just observation. If all I did was agree, there wouldn't be an argument, would there?   And, the same could be said of you.   I do believe that people believe what they want to believe.   I believe in science and data.   I believe I'll go do my chores before it gets hot. Leah You are incorrect. I have ALWAYS been open to consider something new. Heck I have done that in every area of my life. I learned several different methods to hoof care, I am CONSTANTLY learning new things about diet. I did the same thing in every area of horsemanship. Dental care, saddle fit, traditional vs. more holistic medicine. When I disagree it is because I have been there, done that and it doesn't work. Or it doesn't work every time. If I am mistaken I will almost always admit I am-and research further. You will admit you have never heard of something and disagree without considering it! *wink* I rarely read where you are open to learn more. Sometimes but not often. No big deal-just how you are. Heck 10 people could tell you your horse had high heels-you would not even consider your farrier could be off. LOL. It just means you are loyal to your ideas. I am more than happy to have a one night stand with an idea or method or conept, realize it was fun but not forever, and keep looking for newer and better ones. kydawn teeth- it probably would not affect how my toenails grow-although people with TMJ issues say it hurts all over-- However- Im not a horse- lots of scientific proof out there--- PasoBaby_CarolU But Leah...that isn't true.   After reading this board I have tried the following... Durasole - been using it on Rosie and Zar and so far I like the results. Barefoot and Boots - bad experience, but will keep boots for late fall, winter and early spring riding.   Once riding regularly, will stick with shoes. Slow Feeder hay bags.   You can read my review of them. APF - tried it for 2 months, wasn't impressed. Dynamite Free minerals - Tried it and it was OK with 7 of 8 horses.  Not good with number 8. Edited to add Perfect Hoofware - great product, really helped my horse.  Thank you Mike. What I don't accept are new ideas that to me are those of "opinion science," where someone says something, so it must be true.  My experience tells me it isn't true...like that shoes hurt my horses or an uneven bite will mess up their gait.   I'm really not sure how many horses I've had in 50 years, but it's a lot.   I'm also in a breed where gait is absolutely a science and critical.   I have yet to see anyone look at a horse's teeth to see how it will gait.   Now if a horse is suddenly having problems with a bit or throwing its head, that is different, or if the horse has a bad tooth and is in pain, but if the gait is off we look to the rider, saddle, feet, shoes, angles, etc.     I just don't buy that you are going to balance a horse out by balancing his teeth.   Isn't that similar to forcing an angle on a foot?   If the horse naturally grows a crooked tooth, aren't you forcing your idea of perfection on that horse? kydawn teeth Im not talking about straightening a crooked tooth- Im talking about restoring the incisors to the proper length and angle and  maximizing surface to surface contact of the molar tables at the proper angle that fits the anatomy of that particular horse-- all this putting the TMJ back to a comfortable neutral position and allowing the horse to maximize muscle mass and have full range of motion Leah Carol with all due respect you did not try barefoot. Not even close. Or at least how I understand it. You took the shoes off of your horse and had your farrier trim him, correct? I may be wrong. What I saw in a tiny little image was an imbalanced foot. You made conclusions on barefoot as a whole based on your one experience with one type of trim and balance. I have gone down every road possible and some work and some do not! So trying barefoot is not what happened. Then you decide it can't work and case closed-no open mind to improvement on your horses, nothing. Just NOPE. and over. So again, no need to waste time. You have made your decision, don't even open the door to additional information. Teeth balance is silly. Case closed. If pasos don't do it, then it can't be correct. Thunder Hollow        It's About The Horse Forum Index -> Medical and Nutrition Discussions Page 1 of 1

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