Calling all dog trainers

jackspark · Calling all dog trainers

Clarissa gave me some good advice about my "bad" trail dogs. Been thinkin about it and she is right about the dogs needing some work on following along. I know that this forum has some people who train dogs. Peeper? Would you guys read Clarissa's post on the fear thread and give me some advice about how to begin to get them to do what C. said?

My Gem and I would be very grateful for the help

bit

yep, me too. Bess, my border collie will dissapear into the bushes, and then burst out scaring the hell out of the horses. She just explodes out of the brush, and I am thinking about leaving her at home. I love her being able to come along, but she needs to get some trail sense, horse sense, and stay with us. No running about, getting into trouble. Last year she got herself caught in a coyote trap. Lucky Tony was along to get her out. I would never have been able to do it. Not to mention dogs getting baited by coyotes, and you never seeing them again, or hit by cars.

Mandy'sMarty

I'll share my experience with my trail dog, Bodacious.

She came home with me when she was 8 weeks old. From the start, I introduced her to basic skills and taught her with consistency and focus. We were "heeling" on daily walks from the beginning. I put her in my daypack and climbed Blood Mountain with friends on a dayhike. She was growing so fast that, after lunch at the top of the mountain, she no longer fit inside my pack. She scampered at my heels all the way down that afternoon and I knew then she was special.

That first summer I introduced her to white water paddling. By then she understood the command for "heel". She quickly learned to swim alongside my left canoe gunnel as I paddled on my right. To her, "heel" meant stay on my left, whether we were walking the neighborhood, hiking in the mountains, or paddling a river.

Bo next learned to trot alongside as I rode my mountain bike over the gravel roads near my weekend cabin. One of our rides was a loop around a neighboring Morgan horse farm. When Bo was about four, I became very interested in horses and realized that somehow they were going to be a major part of my life. I spent about a year introducing Bo to any horse that we encountered during those mountain bike rides. By the time I found Mandy, Bo was already at ease with horses and seasoned at trotting alongside me for six or more miles on a hardpacked gravel road. She could easily handle twice that many miles on a hike along a mountain trail.

A couple of years later, I had moved Mandy to a large horse farm with hundreds of acres to roam. The problem was that Mandy was uncomfortable leaving the herd and exploring those hundreds of acres when we rode alone. One day it occurred to me to use Bo to "pony" Mandy in order to break her herd-bound pattern. Rather than keep Bo at a "heel" position alongside my left, I directed Bo to move down the trail in front of us and "lead-on". I clearly focused my intent and sent a mental picture to Bo.

What happened next was remarkable. Bo quickly sensed the importance of this new task and readily trotted to the front. I continued to direct Bo with verbal cues and focus so that she had continual positive feedback. Mandy instantly became more relaxed now that someone else was leading the way and more likely to be eaten by the hidden predators along our journey. We moved down the trail as one unit.

Within 45 minutes we were returning from riding along the river trail. I was still in hyper-vigilant mode because Mandy was still acting a bit apprehensive. I wanted to see what was going to happen before it actually happened. We were walking quietly along a winding trail through the thick undergrowth. Suddenly I caught some movement off to my left and saw that it was a large buck hidden in the trees. Maybe seven yards away. Instantly I was ready when he turned his head to look at Bo. In the next instant both Bo and Mandy jumped sideways about three feet. I easily rode the spook.

Bo stood her ground and turned to look back at me for further instructions. This was truly remarkable because Bo never used to miss an opportunity to chase a deer. I quietly looked at her and whispered for her to "stay". Mandy had immediately recovered from her spook and was now also waiting quietly for further instructions. I quietly eased Mandy forward for a step or two so that I could get a better look at the buck. He was either a 10 or 12 pointer. I couldn't quite tell because of all the tree branches in my line of sight. What I could see was that this was definitely his territory and he was standing his ground, as were we. He still had a hard stare fixed on Bo.

I quietly clucked and whispered "Let's go, girls." Bo turned and commenced to trot down the trail. Mandy eased on and followed Bo's wagging tail. I knew then that Bo had accepted her new job completely and that the three of us would travel together and explore new places.

Since that day we have encountered various 'surprises' during our rides, including encounters with coyotes, great blue herons, and lots of deer, including a newborn only minutes old. Mandy no longer lives on that sprawling farm teeming with so much wildlife. We've since moved to a sparse pasture safer for her metabolism. But before we left, I am convinced that the resident coyotes and bands of deer learned to recognize and respect the three of us. We eventually became able to walk quietly among their midst and not cause them to spook in alarm.

Then one day I had Mandy and Bo in a nice trot as we rode near the river and noticed a band of about 5 deer off the trail in a meadow. I recognized them as the same band we had inadvertently flushed from their shady spot an hour earlier on the other side of the farm. This time they stood their ground and watched as we moved right past them. I realized after we had sped by that the older doe, the apparent band leader, decided to stay reclined in the grass and watch us pass by. I couldn't make up my mind which was the more remarkable thing: that Bo had not bothered to chase after deer so close by, or that the doe had been so comfortable with us that she never bothered to stand, much less run away.

jackspark

Thanks for the story Marty. My Gem is soooo much more comfortable when Truman is out front leading the way. I just have to find a way to put them in front or directly behind us.

thelmanelle

My Connie is gone now, but she was my trail dog. I will always miss her...

English Coonhound...a gift from the woods and God!
edit: How was I to know these were my last pictures of her. She died shortly after...but, it was good I took her to my lesson and she stayed on the grass and watched me. I knew she could not breath well, then we drove to the vet. But, she was the best trail dog. Smart and by my side.

Yes_But_Neigh

.....none

Yes_But_Neigh

Peeperpuppy

I have to start out by saying, Marty.... if you could hear it... you get a standing ovation from this dog trianer

How you started your pup is on the job training & that's the best way.

Jackspark, I haven't had a chance to read the fear thread but I'd like to start out by saying that most dogs don't live a life of order or obedience. This is no backhanded comment, it's simple fact. I am often told, "you're really strict". Hmm, I guess I am yet I can have a tribe of dogs with me - off lead - & we move together a seamless unit not because they fear a mistake but because I ask them to do nothing that I wouldn't do myself & I try not to leave their questions unanswered. Dogs never stop learning... EVER until their last breath. So having said that my first point of order would be to say that obedience needs to be exceptional on lead. Nothing can start off lead in my opinion with rare exceptions. I know people who can command a dog from long distances & get instant respect & obedience. Those folks are few & far between. And obedience isn't about heel, sit, down, stay when you're thinking about working the dog. It's when you're not working the dog & you need obedience that you discover your strengths & weaknesses as a working partnership. It's when there are people are milling about & animals moving around & the like & you've told your dog to stay & he/she does that you're getting there. I begin to take the dog with me on walks.

I have rules for walks. You (the dog) will stay in contact with me. I don't see you, you're out of the rules. This takes time & patience. This takes consistency which means as the human you can't allow yourself to become distracted. You need to be able to slow the dog down, speed the dog up. The command 'leave it' means what it says if you're sniffing, eyesing something to pounce at, about to bark on something etc... you drop the idea & let it go. It also means I as the human have to reinforce the commands & follow up with praise. To each thing the dog ask the handler a quesiton. If it goes unanswered soon there is disobedience (or the dog being taught that you're out of touch & you mean nothing).

So okay, take a walk with me & my new pup, Jackspark. I'm gonna call my new pup Barkie for this example. I will start out on lead with a few commands. Maybe I'll attempt to walk 1/4-1/2 mile. The first leg of that will be on lead. I ask myself: 1) how attentive is Barkie? 2) how easily distracted is barkie & 3) can I recall Barkie. If Barkie is attentive, focused on me & easily called back when something distracting happens I will take the lead off. We walk. I walk with purpose (though it doesn't have to be fast). I am focused on the importance of the walk. Barkie must stay in contact - meaning no meandering off down where I can't see Barkie. If I've done my job, I may only have to open my mouth & take a breath to speak & Barkie's ears go up, head turns toward me like "Wha?" At that response I will simply smile, nod my approval & be very proud of my dog. THAT is important. YOu think it, you feel it, it has to be real... not fake. If Barkie is getting distracted, the lead goes back on. I may trust the dog enough to recall the dog. No matter what command I give, "Come" when the dog comes to me I say, "Good come" If I tell the dog to 'leave it' because Barkie wants to chase a squirrel... (& he does leave it) I say "GOOD leave it". Pay attention to tone. Corrections should sound like corrections. Praise should sound like you are pleased. Commands should not be shouted, they should be firm, clear, brook no nonsense.

What I'll start to look for next is what I call 'trail point'. MUCH of your success will depend upon the breed, the attention span, & HOW CONSISTENT you are! My best trail points was my German Shepherd & my Belgian. These are dogs who prefer to be the first line of defense. They go a little bit ahead & learn where that invisible line is where you will say, "Wait". My dogs have taken these walks with me enough that they feel it. Most of the times I open my mouth, start to draw breath & they'll stop & look to meet my eyes. I smile & say, "Good wait". I KNOW as their trainer I'm getting there when they start to find that invisible lead & they look to me for direction. NOW as the human element in this if I"m screwing off & getting distracted... this 'look for guidance' is ignored & soon the dog learns this means nothing. And it only takes 1-2 times for the dog to figure out you're a goober. Dogs are s-m-a-r-t. So if you waste their time correcting them & then not paying attention... you're going to have problems. Other dogs like my collie can walk point or drag (drag being the dog who hangs behind). You must watch with the herding breeds that they're not walking drag to nip heels. None of that. My horses trust me to control the dogs. The dogs rely on me to let them know when to do what. That's a lot of balls in the air so until you're used to it... stick to the walks with the dog... then add the horse later.

You repeat this process over & over until you can't remember when you last had to correct the dog... then you add the horse & you start from scratch. I wouldn't do this with a new dog AND a new horse. 1 issue at a time. Bring old reliable horse to help train new green dog. When I have seasoned horses, I start my pups riding on the horse with me. They learn to read the horses. This is how my old German Shep was started & until her death she protected the horses & was a living fence where she cleared anything out she thought was trouble.

At any point you have a problem... go backward 4 steps.

This is a more elaborate plan than how I do it but very few people train their dogs in the trenches as I do so by the time I fork a leg over a horse the dog is connected to me like an electrical current. The plan I lay out above is a template for all problems. You start with the very basic, you build the bond & strengthen the dogs respect for their leader & you enforce it. In the beginning you'll think... yeesh... NEVER ASK PEEPER AGAIN but if you stick with it you'll discover yourself having full out conversations with no more than your eyes, a flip of a finger, a breath (how you take that breath).

A brief little story about a client's dog, a St Bernard. I was working with her doing night work. Silent night work with no spoken commands. Meaning the dog & I are working at night. I would give silent hand signals until the dog was reading me & then that ceased. My husband let out a dobe we had (1 I did not raise) & she decided to attack over the fence. The goofey dog got her hind legs caught in the top of the 6 ft chain link fence & hung... still trying to attack. I left Daisey at a down stay & went to untangle the dobe. Sent her back to the house with her pride injured & embarrassed. Trouble is I lost Daisy the bernard! I had my husband send out my male dobe who was an excellent tracker. I put him out to find Daisey. The reason I didn't recall her is that Daisey had confidence issues as a result of having the beejesus beat out of her by her first home. She would come on command but in the dark without me being able to read her, I didn't want to risk undoing all the confidence builders we did. When I recalled her it was a race between my male & Daisey to get to me.

Like people some dogs can excel quickly. Others are very slow. Some can not ever conquer some deamons. Others just take time & consistence. I find 90% of the time I can handle most dogs through any situation but I can hand them to someone else & they can't even get them to walk down the street. Humans being pleased or disappointed in an animal is transmitted loud & clear. Your confidence & leadership is critical. Remembering to look for those questions from the dog & never leave questions unanswered. "Sit.... good sit" Barkey grabs a cookie out of the grand-baby's hand I say, "Drop it"... the dog drops the cookie & I say, "Good drop it" Like wise if I give a correction, I correct (in the beginning it's lead & collar correction + vocals... later it only takes vocals if I've done my job). When I say "Leave it" & the dog does... "Good leave it. "Sit... pfui..." (I don't use NO to correct my dogs... if you do you insert that where I say pfui) Then when the dog complies... I say 'good sit"

You're smart. You get the idea. Everything from companion pet to the highest most elite job a dog can do is handled the same.

Mandy'sMarty

Robin--Thanks for the compliment. Coming from you that means a lot to me.

PasoBaby_CarolU

thelmanelle

Peeperpuppy,
That was great info. Yes, herders do want to nip at the heels...not a good thing. Thanks.

Carol,
It was good to see Connie's sweet face. Thanks. I hope that Josh will trail ride with me. If now, he'll have to stay home with the other dogs. He does the going to the barn well...but, I do tie him for my lesson time or he will follow me the entire lesson on my horse's heel.

So PP is correct. And after reading Deb's issues with her two Border Collies, I may find out that he can't go.

But, he is learning to have some training time and play time.

bit

ahhhhh. well hell. Just like life, I think I was doing a little blaming, and not being accountable for training my very smart dog. Ok. We'll get right on this. It is taking all my time to work with two horses, and I just wanted my dog to "behave" and not add to my list. Typical human.

Clarissa

Wow Marty great post & also Peeper. Dogs need leaders too or they become the leader, much like horses.

If they are leaderless they can walk all over your life.

In my teens when I was a jillaroo, I used to breed & train red cattle dogs to sell to Texan & Mexican ranchers. Other Aussie breeders did too. If you still have red or blue cattle dogs over there they may be from my bloodlines.

None the less they had to have impecible manners & I still hate dogs that are 'out of control'. A dogs place is at your feet or doing your bidding. They are happy & restfull then because they know their place & who their leader is. They have no need to prove themselves more.

These days I am not the slightest bit interested in training dogs, but I do occasionally 'dog-sit'. I can't help myself but to teach it proper manners, mostly for my sanity. When the dog goes back to it's owner I am told they have never seen it happier or healthier & they like the way I taught it tricks etc. However in no time flat the dog is back to it's old ways of running all over it's owners.

mmmm

Peeperpuppy

oh Bit, I could just hug you. If I only had 1 client a week who had your attitude my life would be easier

And just as easily as you can deliberately train... you can also accidentally train. Case in point, my husband took his male out to bury the satellite cable. The job was done he came in & 20 minutes later the satellite went out. The dog dug up the cable & sat waiting, he'd drug the shovel out. See the game to the dog is that he'd get his handler back out there. The man did. He would bury & the dog was behind him digging. Of course, this didn't make my husband happy. I went out to save the dog because... well... my Irish husband was getting frustrated. SO I showed the dog how to put the cable in the hole & hold it down with his paw. Had hubby bury the cable 1 ft at a time showing great importance to keeping that cable under dirt. Because it's important to the handler & the exercise was broken down in a way that placed importance & intent on keeping that wire covered... now the dog has purpose. I corrected him for any breach & then he'd bawl any of the others out if they tried to dig there UNLESS my husband ticked him off.

What makes it even worse is if you've had 1-2 or more of those dogs who just seemed to be born nearly perfect. It's hard not to compare. My collie is one of those dogs. She just doesn't do anything wrong. Her lifetime of crimes adds up to 2 dead chickens & 1 chewed up pair of glasses. The chewed glasses was recent & largely in part to the fact that we went on vacation & my husband had dropped them outside somewhere & hadn't found them. I think she was messing with them because they smelled like him. But Tuck's funny about cleaning & she dropped them into the water bucket

The first dead chicken was a dog mistake. I was so overwhelmingly disappointed because the perfect collie did this. When I finally lay eyes on her she dropped her head & crawled - on her belly - off out of sight & hid. I said not a word to her about it. That was the end of her chicken killing. You can shut this dog down with a harsh word so it doesn't take much. The 2nd bird wasn't really so much her fault as she was trying to take it away from a neighbor's dog. Birdie got the death march in the scuffle.

3 crimes in her whole life. She lives in an invisible yard where there is no fencing & I will not permit electronic shock collars used on my dogs so there is no invisible fencing. We've set up cameras. She doesn't leave her territory. She keeps chickens safe from threats above & below ground & she even gives the UPS guy grief if he rushes her birds out of the drive.

It is dogs like Tuck that make it hard on the others. As humans we like the ones that take no effort on our part. Then we become frustrated when they're not all like that

It's human nature. I'll tell you a secret about me... I am very careful when I take on a pup/dog for my personal work. Why? You ask... well, I don't do well with the dogs who are in that normal intelligence range or below. Yes there are some dogs, some whole breeds in fact that their minds just don't work like herding dogs. It doesn't make them lesser pets or lesser value than any other breed... but I personally find myself frustrated by them in the higher end work. So for myself I'm selective in the breeding of dogs I pick for myself. I do not recommend 90% of the people out there try to take a pup from the same litters I choose from because the smarter the dog, the harder they test you, the more they demand that you're on your game.

I've a friend whose female german shep was sitting in the house. His wife got angry because someone tracked mud in all over her newly cleaned floor. The wife was chewing him out. The dog looked at the wife & made eye contact, the serious kind. She got up & trotted off into another room. When she returned she had a shoe - covered in mud - dangling from her mouth & she threw it at the wife's feet. The shoe did not belong to my friend but to the couple's youngest son. The dog was telling her she had the wrong man & to get off her master's back. Likewise when my back is being evil, my dogs know without me breathing a word that I am in that moment disabled. They know I can't defend/protect myself. They will change & in that moment if someone made a move on me... the girls will defend me violently if necessary.

The keys to the kingdom lie in the uber intelligent dogs but they're not for everyone. The harder the temperament, the keener the intelligence the more they'll say, "why must I" or "why is that a no" They'll try you. They'll test the limits. But it's wise to first ask yourself the dog's motives. I prefer the German, Belgian Shepherd's Dogs, the collie, (some day I'm going to try a Dutch Shepherd's Dog as I've never had one of those before) these are the breeds I favor to work in my home & on my farm. I favor the Great Pyranees & value the breed above any other when it comes to livestock. You got a Pyr triained to be your trail dog & you've got peace of mind. I love good border collies & labs but God love 'em, some of them have bees in their bonnets in engery. Some BC's are so intensely eyed on stock that they take a lot of time & descipline to get them to think differently, others simply can't give it up.

I think when you find a hunting bred dog who is a good trail dog, he/she is worth 10 times their weight in gold. A youngster in my area had Peaches, a red bone. Local trainers made fun of him because he wanted to train Peaches to do SAR work. I didn't find it so funny. He was a poor kid & Peaches was what he had, a gift from his Great Grandfather before the man died. Peaches & the boy were trained by me & they went on to be a very highly sought after team to solve old crimes that are long ago cold. Peaches has letters from little unimportant people like US Presidents, Govenors, & more important families who write wiping tears their appreciation for Peaches part in putting souls to rest in peace or finding killers who might've otherwise gotten away with it. Peaches has passed her skills on to puppies & the kid could get $3000 a pup but he doesn't do it. He's working with a hound man to see that her off spring are tested & put to work like their momma.

I love the pictures of Connie. What a beautiful, beautiful dog. You can see kindness in those big loveable eyes!

jackspark

Been gone all weekend but just caught up on this thread. Thanks Peep for taking the time to be sooooo generous with your knowledge. The benefit to me and my dogs will be amazing. I walk twice a day and will begin today leash training my youngest. Hubby and I talked about your info and he's also on board, he'll help get the boys rollin.

I will probably need a lot of guidance when I run into snags so hope not to bug ya tooooo much! I've got 4 dogs so I guess I better get busy

Peeperpuppy

You're best to start out with 1 on 1. You work your way through them 1 at a time. Then you work 2 at a time, then 3 & finally 4. It's how you achieve single contact. Begin with the end in mind. Try to remember not to repeat commands. 1 command= obedience + praise or a correction, then praise when they get it right.

It takes a lot of time & practice but you'll do it. I've got faith in ya.

thelmanelle

PP,
Thanks for the sweet eyes on Connie. She showed up in my life. I was headed out for a trail ride...with Jesse, my TWH and their he and she were sharing a meal... she was skin and bones. I scared her being human. So I locked up my dogs, and put food and water in the woods. Tacked up Jesse and she followed. It took weeks for her to touch my fingers tips. She cried.

So it was a long term effort as she had clearly been mistreated and dropped off or escaped. She was my blessing.

Josh is a blessing, too. And a puppy. He is so smart. Yes, I have to be ready for that. But, I am at a public barn with him and during my lesson, he is not allowed to be on my heels. That time is paid for with my instructor , so I have him with two other barn dogs off to play.

Later, he is allowed freedom to run and have fun. But, other times, I ask him to sit with me and watch. He's doing well. yesterday, we napped together. it's time and takes time.

One thing, I hate is I just got him and we have plans ..so I will have a house sitter. I really dislike having a puppy have so many changes in his short life. But, he will be at home.

So I am willing to say, I want to learn. Not be the person who backs away. I would love for him to not nip or be at the heels without it being a negative. Reward him for not doing that?

But, he is puppy 6 months smart and going...