| Archive for It's About The Horse The Free Forum for those Doing Parelli - and a whole lot More! "Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful." Xenophon (430-355 B.C.), |
| Yes_But_Neigh |
Can we talk about Linda's Piaffes now?It got shut down the last time Leah tried to tell us why she thought Magic and Remmer's Piaffes looked painful.Can we talk about that now? From someone who is interested in Dressage I would love to hear what Leah has to say about the Piaffes and what makes them look painful. I just watched the tour stop highlights from Jackson and I can really see Remmer kicking up dirt with his front feet. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I don't do dressage, but do DO piaffes....every time my horse wants to go somewhere I don't! :shock: :lol:
My piaffes don't look like Linda's though...they are REALLY quick! And sometimes even backwards. LOL |
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| Leah |
Actually I respectfully defer to Blue Flame on this one!!! :D | ||||
| Yes_But_Neigh |
Carol I just choked on my Red Bull! :lol:
Blue Flame? |
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| Gallop On |
The piaffe is defined as a 'trot in place'. It's simple to say but it's much more than that...every good quality from a trot, including balance, rhythm, collection, straightness, suppleness, etc. you want in a piaffe.
I personally have never thought Magic's piaffes have had all those qualities. I do think they can look painful at times...she seems very snappy in her leg movements, not smooth. And I don't know if I've ever seen Remmer piaffe though... |
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| Julie |
I agree, worked at a yard at grand prix level dressage. I have seen piaffe taught to many horses and the horses are just not balanced, rhythmical, they are just not enjoying it. there is no spark in their eye, its so toally a job for them, they are not playing. Will try and film my friend riding a dressage horse bareback doing piaffe, he is perfectly capable of riding it in a headcollar too. | ||||
| Niek |
Its difficult to say its not a piaffe. It misses certain aspects though: Clear weightshifts, lifting of the legs etc. I feel the "piaffe" that is showed during demos is just a party trick.. It lacks the umph imo.
The question here though: is it on purpose or cant he do more ?.. I think its the first. Take a look to this bannher.. Right side, look who passes by. http://www.allege-ideal.com/ I think in general Magic (and other parelli horses) look Painfull. I tribute this to mostly to their feet. Altough i generaly think their horses are to fat to.. |
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| Pedestal*Pony |
My paint gelding does piaffes just like Carols horse!!! :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol: |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I have found this site particularly helpful on natural collection. The fact that are their examples are piaffes helps THIS discussion.
http://www.sustainabledressage.com/collection/true_collection.php |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Wow, I was just reviewing her site and she's updated it and added more description to it. It's very nice.
For those unfamiliar with it, but interested in collection, it's a good idea to start at the beginning. http://www.sustainabledressage.com/index.php Includes a description of natural dressage, false collection, etc. A great education resource. |
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| learningthedance |
:shock: :shock: :shock:
This I will NEVER understand. Talk about a "freak show". THAT is just heart breaking to see. In MY opinion anyways. http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/how.php http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/index.php I can honestly understand how Pat himself couldn't sit and watch something like this. 
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| Yes_But_Neigh |
WOW I didn't know people actually rode their horses around like this!
I've seen a hyped up jumper getting ready to go or a barrel horse but he/she wasn't held this way the whole time! I can tell you when I sat on the FEI horse in Oregon he LOVED to dance! I got on him and it was like he was screaming LET'S DANCE! See how I dance!? It was the most incredible feeling in the world. He was a world class rare WB and he was talented and I saw it in his eyes that he wanted to dance he wanted to be praised (It didn't help that I had sugar cubes in my pockets :lol: ) but man it was so incredible, and I can say it didn't look anything like the Parelli's horses. To me, Remmer looks lazy when he Piaffe's or Passages. Not sure if this is because he hurts or that he's being intro but it looks like they do it because they are being told, not because they want to. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Yes, the Rolkur is pretty disgusting isn't it? And sadly it is what is winning now. Breaks your heart for those horses. | ||||
| Leah |
In Gerd Heuschmann's book, Tug of War he gives the physical reasons why Rollkur is SO damaging.
he goes through what happens to the muscles and why it gives a 'false pretty' of a lifted back. It actually creates gaits that are not pure at all. On this one, learningthedance you and I are in 100% agreement-TOTAL COMPLETE freak show. 
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| Gallop On |
I love the Sustainable Dressage site! When I first found it, I spent two hours on it :lol:
And I really do despise Rolkur. I do think that it will one day be banned though. Not everyone in the dressage world are dressage nazis... |
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| Julie |
Love the book Tug of war! | ||||
| Horse Gypsy |
Here is Karen and Monty doing Piaffe on her website home page- Notice slack in reins and how up hill he is- I think hers is pretty darn good - and naturally developed http://www.dressagenaturally.net/ | ||||
| Blue Flame |
I've yet to see what I would call a really really good one, even from the masters - and by that I mean the ultimate piaffe. I could go into all sorts of descriptions about weight distribution and foot placement and balance etc. but I'll make it short. The ultimate piaffe would have suspension - a period of time when all feet are off the ground. Also - and here's something to throw the cat amongst the pidgeons - the foreleg that is off the ground could be off the ground with very little bend in the leg and so would not need to be very far off the ground. Meanwhile, the foreleg touching the ground would be doing just that - touching the ground, not really supporting weight - almost reaching for the ground - and it would be vertical. The suspension and the foreleg reaching for the ground can only occur because almost all of the weight is on the hind leg and the hind leg is placed such and is strong enough to propell the whole horse vertically. In order to do this the horse would need to be incredibly strong. I would consider that this requires far more strength than levade or corbett since it is carried on one hind leg at a time. Far be it from me to presume to critique Karen, but you can see that the example pic referred to above is a long way from what I'm describing - and most of that will be due to insufficient hind leg strength. The foreleg on the ground is bearing weight rather than reaching down to touch. That leg is also reaching back (off vertical) because it is counterbalancing the hind leg which is partially driving the horse backwards. This in turn is because the hind foot is not placed far enough forward AND it is too straight. This hind leg being too straight engages the wrong muscles for the movement so that instead of the horse being rotated upwards around the hip joint, it is driven slightly backwards instead - thus the foreleg must take some weight for traction and angle itself to counterbalance the backward thrust so that the horse remains stationary. Ok, well I tried to be brief but couldn't. However, if I even get approximately close to the picture of Karen and Monty I will be very happy. |
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| Niek |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiP7nsVHizw
what do you think of this blue flame ? I know horse is over tucked at points.. But still for opinions sake 
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| Yes_But_Neigh |
Oh my gosh! THANK YOU for taking the time it taks to explain this!
Do you mind if I save this as a word document on my computer so that I can refer back to it? |
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| Blue Flame |
I've seen that clip before but watched it again more closely this time. While inspiring and nice to look at, if I was to pic out the one thing lacking in every movement it would be this - suspension. Where is the moment when the horse has all four feet off the ground? I'm not just talking about piaffe here, even in the sideways and half pass movements there is no suspension.
Unfortunately, even the olympians and world champions fool judges and spectactors into thinking they are seeing suspension via one very cunning visual trick - that trick is high leg action. You will see the suspension in passage but then as the horse slows down to piaffe all of the elevation and suspension disappears because the horses are not tranferring that forward energy component of the passage into vertical energy in piaffe - so they replace it with high leg action to try to hide the lack of vertical impulsion. Oooh - now there's a term you don't hear everyday, if ever - vertical impulsion - ponder the meaning for a moment . . . . . . . I've seen the ex-PP that we started our journey with, Chip Johnson, perform these movements with suspension - and LOTS of it - so i know that a horse can indeed move that way. (BTW, Chip's horse, Peter Pan is Andalusion X Cleveland Bay). Not only that, but when I saw Chip and Peter Pan do these manouvres with suspension, it was the first time Chip had mounted Peter Pan in two months. It's why I'm so disenfranchised with the people most regard as the world's best - including the so-called masters. If an ex-PP who scrapes a living together teaching "Foundation Horsemanship" and re-starting problem horses can do it in front of 4 random people, on a random farm, in a remote corner of the world - then where are the others? Chips website: http://web.mac.com/justawhisper/Just_A_Whisper/Home.html |
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| Niek |
thanks for your analisys on this. I indeed never looked with the glasses of : Vertical impulsion.. Verry interesting.. lots to ponder indeed 
Do you have any footage of Chip ? (im a visual person in these things) i looked on his site but couldnt find a thing. Im sure there are more people that can achieve this. But they generaly dont flaunt it around the good are few and far between
a short description on how he goes about is suficient to
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| Blue Flame |
Once, he did a manouvre just to show us - a big springly elevated sideways trot. Everyone was so awestruck at the beauty of it that they forgot what we were even supposed to be learning - so he downplayed it so we could focus on what we were supposed to be doing instead of standing there with our mouths hanging open. A description on how he goes about it was not forthcoming - and believe me - the question was asked. He just said that there were more important things we needed to learn first . . . . He has moved further north now - to far for us to reasonably go for clinics, but I did read somewhere that he was looking for an apprentice . . . |
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| Niek |
Cant he move here ? 
*cheks how much flying a horse over is *jaw drops... |
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| Niek |
Ive been pondering the vertical impulsion. And came to the conclusion you actually see this with Phillipe Karl. when he rides his hors Odin.
He does something what i can only describe as a passage halfpass... |
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| Leah |
Blue Flame-when we had this discussion on the SC forum (or parts of this discussion)-did we talk about PK?
I agree with Niek-his horses look very much like they are floating to the ground not grinding into it. |
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| Niek |
Im sure we did mention his name several times . Im verry hesitant to edit his stuff out due to copyright stuff. So im dugging into my youtube liberary so to say
Absent akhal theke stallion, one of the most famous ones i believe. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6QYTJrGwEo&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omqhqiFx7i4&feature=related nuno oliveira. training, and riding a more finished horse http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkjoGPhY-kQ&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtFm-1NT940&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P9ERGdql48&feature=related clip with Bent Branderup http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WDO1MgsM1U Some different riders from PK.. I can put his vids up tpo curious what you guys think if we look at "vertical impulsion" |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I think Chip is in some of the footage on the original Level DVDs, at least he looks familiar.
I would really like to see video of what you are talking about. I don't watch a lot of dressage. I'm more into Doma Vaquero, which is like dressage but with one rein and a lot more reining type moves. |
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| Blue Flame |
Even in the clip of Phillipe Karl lionked below - it's better as you can see some supension in the hind feet, but still no suspension in the front feet. Noticed the hind end bouncing up and down but the front, apart from changing from one foot to the other, is basically static.
A horse's front leg musculature doesn't lend itself to lifting or bouncing. Although I've seen our own horse bounce on his front end when playing while the back feet stayed planted, that bounce came from straight front legs and the power to do it came from the scapula area. Additionally, it was done on both front legs simultaneously. So in order to suspend the front in a piaffe, the weight must go to the back - more towards a levade position but on one leg - so that when the hind foot thrusts, it lifts the whole horse. The clips Niek posted and the one linked below of Phillipe Karl show bounce in the hind end not being transferred to front. It takes incredible strength from the horse combined with getting the hind foot under the centre of gravity of the horse/rider combination. It obviously should never be forced on a horse that doesn't posess the necessary strength as something would probably break. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6...E97B3&playnext=1&index=52 Still looking for one with both hind AND front suspension - but they're getting better. |
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| Blue Flame |
As far as conformation goes - probably a close coupled horse with relatively short (but strong) hind legs will have the advantage. THis is because the position necessary is very uphill and the shorter legs will mean less stress on everything due to shorter levers. | ||||
| Niek |
Phillipe Karl is not riding odin there though
The piaffes i posted are just some different " type" of piaffes.. |
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| Blue Flame |
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| Blue Flame |
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| Horse Gypsy |
All of this has me thinking, so where is the best starting point if this suspension is the ultimate final product. I think that Pats piaffe to date are flat and are not even a piaffe they are a trick of walking in place because there is no elevation or uphill posture-- But on the other hand K R piaffe with Monty seems like it is on the path to a more true piaffe- it seems like it is not something that is going to happen overnight- and I think athletic ability and conformation probably do play a role in getting the type of suspension you are speaking of. TO me the most important thing should be that the horse is happily performing the movement and is not being forced. I wish I could watch all the videos but they would take me all day to down load. | ||||
| Yes_But_Neigh |
One thing that is confusing to me is how Linda teaches the Piaffe on the ground. She has Remmer in the round pen and has him trot forward two steps the back up two steps super fast until he is eventually going upwards. This would NOT work for Captain. He would get so upset with me making him go forward so fast and stopping him and backing up that he would probably jump the pen or run out of the situation...
But I also don't want to hit his heels with a stick either... |
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| Horse Gypsy |
I am not sure that anyone else teaches Piaffe that way. It has to come from the weight coming back and the hind end coming under and taking up more and more weight- then it should be easy for them to perform. | ||||
| Yes_But_Neigh |
So since we aren't on SC anymore anyone want to give me good pointers on getting this going?
My goal is to get a Piaffe going at Liberty. Obviously I need a WAY better relationship with my horse before I start this but I do not want to go at it the Linda way nor do I want to hit his ankles with the whip. Any books or sites you guys can reccomend? |
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| Niek |
not that i know of on youtube. Its bonus material on his dvds.. ITs the horse he rode in the quadre noir for 13 years. Hes retired now.. Il see if i can get some screenshots as in dont want to go into copyright stuff |
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| Blue Flame |
I'm not criticising any of the piaffes we are seeing - more trying to paint a picture of the ultimate piaffe - establishing a standard to compare them to - so that we can see what it is (what's good about it) and what it isn't (where it's lacking) on it's merits regardless of who is performing it. |
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| Niek |
altough these are not taking during piaffe. and its hard to get a decent shot of it..
They clearly show vertical impulsion in movement. I tried to cap the moments where there is most "spring" 
In all of these movements there no longer is any true "weight" on any of the legs |
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| Blue Flame |
Nice pics Niek. Love that horse's expression. The last pic helps me answer WickedDetour's question. | ||||
| Blue Flame |
Going back to first principles - we need to identify the ingredients: 1. Impulsion and self carriage - we need horse to maintain gait without constant nagging. 2. Speeds within the gait - we need horse to be able to trot with the same rhythm at various speeds. 3. Strength - we need the horse to be strong enough to do what we're asking. 4. Weight distribution/Balance - we need horse to be strong enough and skilled enough to carry himself on his HQ. 5. Suspension - the final element once everything else is in place Since you want to teach it at liberty - let's look to the ultimate liberty teacher - the dam. For 1 & 2 I'd be thinking along the lines of stick to me, synchronise with me and mirror me. Trot with me and lets change speeds and see how slow we can get while still maintaining the trot. For 3 & 4 I'd be looking at utilising hills, transitions and yo-yo up and down stairs increasing in height as the horse gets stronger and more balanced. In order to step up or down the horse needs to transfer weight to the HQ - especially effective if it's one foot at a time like a step workout. Both directions - for uphill step, front feet on top of step and HQ step up then back down. For downhill, HQ stay on top of step and front feet step down then step back up. It one foot at a time though - not both. For 5 . . . in Pat's talk on sideways game in L&HB he talks about dimensions of suspension. He refers to that moment a skier changes direction when he is in the air - a moment of weightlessness as he pivots over his skis where he rearranges his body. It's also the optimum moment for a horse to perform a flying lead change. So here's one way we might approach it. Sideways trot against a fence away and towards. In the moments of changing the sideways direction from one side to the other, the horse will pivot his centre of gravity over his feet and have a moment of suspension. If we can get the horse to maintain gait through this change of direction, we will get a momentary piaffe. Increase the frequency of the sideways direction changes and keep the horse guessing while maintaining the trot and we might get longer moments of piaffe. If you get this far then you might want to start phasing out the fence. To get the weight back on the HQ you might want to take the sideways stuff to an incline. So that would be a combination of stick to me, synchronise with me, mirror me, sideways, yo-yo (sideways yo-yo away and towards). Obviously lots of components needing to be solid at a reasonably high level - no shortcuts here . . . . I have no experience with this and so have no idea if it would work, but it seems like a logical progression to me. |
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| Yes_But_Neigh |
Oh that is perfect!
Captain is awesome at going sideways. He is already trotting to and from me and although he is a little crooked without the fence he is pretty good at it and would be great if we put the fence back in there. Thank you! |
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| Horse Gypsy |
What a horse! You can immediately see the lightness- Love the pictures. WE never see dressage like this in the US or it is rare or hidden somewhere.
Before you can get to Piaffe you have to develop all the different gates- Working trot Medium trot, Extended Trot, collected trot- walk canter etc. I would very much like to teach my Hano to do all this at liberty and while riding- I think you have to develop all the gates at liberty stick to me fashion, also. I have noticed with my baby that she will get more elevated in her gates if I have her face me back up a few strides and then trot toward me while I am running backwards. But they have to be able to go from a back up to a trot for that to work- she just does because she can be pretty extroverted and is a show off. |
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| Leah |
Niek those photos make me go all yummy inside!
Go PK!! 
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| kristie |
edit | ||||
| jwilhite |