| Archive for It's About The Horse The Free Forum for those Doing Parelli - and a whole lot More! "Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful." Xenophon (430-355 B.C.), |
| Clarissa |
Can you nail a shoe onto this hoof?So we got off cyteks & onto heart bars but we are still talking about nailing shoes onto compromised hoof.This hoof didn't look like this at it's most recent trim on Thursday (3days before this photo was taken. When I did the trim it was just a tiny bit off the toe mostly to get rid of any hoof that may have been causing leverage at the point of break over. There seemed to be solid horn to nip into. (I'm not using a rasp on his feet because the vibration would cause pain in such an inflamed hoof.) I was happy with the look of the hoof after the trim & let him go on his way. A few hours later at feedtime he seemed more lame on that foot & I picked it up to look at it & feel it for heat. I was appauled to see the front wall had let go from the sole right around to the heel quarters on both sides & there was this very deep void with all this fiberous material between the sole & outer wall. All that is now a grey colour. Generally lamella wedge is solid material but because this separation is right in deep it doesn't really seem like lamella wedge. So with the hoof held up the gap is about 5/8th inch or 16mm aprox. Then when he is standing on a hard surface & weight bearing & the gap is view at ground level (that is with my head laying on the concrete) it closes right up to only a few mm or less than 1/4inch max. With so much movement is it wise to nail to that hoof? Will keeping the 2 parts forced together by nails cause more pain by not allowing natural movement? People talk about the cyteks causing continuous pressure but I see any shoe nailed through to this wall as causing the very same type of pressures. If the hoof sole & wall were still properly connected there wouldn't be an issue & no pressure would be felt. But with the wall & sole now being 2 separate sections, there must be compromised live material inbetween the layers. There certainly are abscesses in there because they break out almost daily. It's why he is in so much pain & his feet are so hot. Does the warping & movement of the 2 sections cause the abscesses by continually fraying the live tissue inside? Therefore nailing would stabilize the 2 sections stopping movement? Or would nailing the 2 sections together cause even more pressure, therefore more pain & damage & less space for inflamed tissues to drain? Without seeing his feet or even photos or xrays the one local farrier has said he would just apply handmade heartbars. To my mind it's the standard one size fits all cure. I don't know what would be the right cure for this hoof because I have never come across such a hoof before. But I was expecting some sort of consultaion with other farriers or vet or something. I am still of the opinion that shoes won't 'cure' the problems, just hold them at bay for a period of time until I discover the true catalyst or base reason for the problem. 
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Clarissa, you need to take him to a real farrier. There is a lot that can be done with cleats and epoxy resins. But it is not something you can do. If you are going to save him, he needs a GOOD professional.
Secondly, he's had these feet problems for three years that we've had this forum. Laminitis is a symptom of another problem. You have to solve that problem and end this cycle of chronic laminitis for this horse. If it is wet land, then he needs a soft dry place to stand. A carport, pole barn, lean-to, shed, stall...whatever, and soft, dry footing. If it is IR, he needs to be be on dry lot, low starch hay, and no pasture again - ever. |
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| gaitinalong |
Ditto. I've only been on this forum a few months so ---- unless this horse's founder is due to mechanical issues such as road founder, or he got into the grain bin, I promise you he has metabolic issues. Even if they didn't show up in a blood test he has metabolic issues. He could be insulin resistant, he could have Equine Metabolic Syndrome, he could even be headed for cushings but isn't showing any of the hair signs yet. Horses don't founder on grass unless their insulin/glucose/cortisol is out of whack. They are essentially Type II diabetics and need to be treated as such 
The absolute worst thing I have observed folks on all these forums do, is go into denial that their horse has insulin issues. Nine out ten people do it because we: 1. Don't want to accept it. 2. Don't want to deal with it for the rest of our lives. 3. Know how much work and $$$ it is going to cost. But the sooner folks accept the horse's health issues, the better the chance of keeping it healthy, letting it have a job (often a quieter job) and we don't have to spend as much toward it's well-being. I apologize if I sound harsh - I don't mean to be - voice inflection gets lost on a keyboard. But I do mean to try and make my point that, as Carol stated, the laminitis is a symptom of another problem. It won't go away until the root cause is discovered and it is treated
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| Mandy'sMarty |
I tend to agree with what Carol and Gaitin' have said. I believe Sonny has metabolic issues, and that focusing entirely on stabilizing and repairing his feet is like trying to secure the deck furniture in order to keep it from sliding off the deck of a sinking ship. However, this is not to suggest that Sonny is a lost cause. The horse's feet reflect the condition of the horse's overall health...and the hoof capsule reflects the condition of what the horse has been experiencing. It's recent history is written on the hooves. If he were mine, I would immediately correct the balance in Sonny's metabolism. I believe the root cause of his issues is in his gut. I believe that Sonny is suffering from a much too acidic pH. Probably from too many non-structural carbohydrates (NSC's) in his diet. I believe his gut flora is out of balance and that compromises his digestion. I believe he is not able to digest and assimilate all the nutrition in his diet. It appears that his feet are not receiving the benefit of the minerals they need. It also appears that his feet are not able to muster an adequate defense against the fungal and bacterial assaults that all horses' feet experience. Healthy horses with balanced pH are able to overcome fungal and bacterial invasion. Perhaps the imbalance in Sonny's gut flora has caused an ongoing cycle of growth and die-off of the good gut flora versus the bad gut flora. A surge in die-off creates a surge in endotoxins which are known to set off a cascade of metabolic responses that eventually compromise the integrity of the laminae connection in the feet between the hoof capsule and P3. I suspect that Sonny has been consuming more NSC's in his diet than he has been able to convert into energy. Carb's are the most easily accessible energy source for the body. When consumed they are converted into glucose, which is then used for energy by the muscles. Excess glucose is stored in the liver and muscles, but these body parts can only store so much glucose. Remaining glucose is stored as fat in certain areas of the body. It appears that excessive carb intake is linked with an increased risk for type II diabetes in people and EMS (equine metabolic syndrome) in horses. I don't believe Sonny has chronic IR or EMS now, but he is certainly at metabolic risk. I believe he is developing IR and/or EMS. It's probably simply the effect of the imbalance between his diet and exercise. Obviously, the extra weight he is now carrying is putting too much stress on his fragile feet. He is now in a very difficult condition where he is unable to quickly burn calories and lose weight with typical exercise. If Sonny were mine, I would begin with a good probiotic to re-establish a healthy mix of good gut flora. Until he is able to digest and metabolize all the nutrients in his diet, he will be compromised in his ability to stabilize and recover. I would next do everything humanly possible to control the NSC's in his diet so as not to exceed 10%. This becomes difficult when pasture grasses become stressed from drought or overgrazing, or when the grasses build energy to accelerate growth. I would follow this with supplementing his diet with a quality oceanic sea vegetation supplement to accelerate the rehabilitation of his feet. Meanwhile he needs to be living on a surface that minimizes the injury to his feet while still providing stimulation and the opportunity for him to move. Until his body and metabolism are rehabilitated systemically and holistically, I believe Sonny's feet will continue to suffer and fail. His rehabilitation will require some strategy for protecting his feet while allowing stimulation. Whether it is boots with pads, casting, remedial shoes...or some combination of all three...I expect his rehab will require frequent tweaking and adjustments. Probably on a weekly basis. I would defer to a professional practitioner experienced in laminitis/founder regarding the specific tactics. Note that I am not a vet nor a professional farrier nor trimmer. I am a first time horse owner who happens to own a very metabolically sensitive horse. All horses are individuals. My mare is extremely sensitive to carb's. And to a particular fungus that grows on fescue grass. It almost killed her two years ago when she foundered. I spent a year rehabilitating her and supporting her body's ability to remodel and heal itself. Today she has returned to endurance competition. She races barefoot when the condition of the course matches the condition of her feet...which is always changing due to the the quality of her hay, the condition of her pasture, and the native vegetation growing there. |
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| Clarissa |
Don’t get me wrong here. I agree that Sonny is suffering a metabolic issue & that it is most likely the grass combined with soft country. Carol you are correct that his foot problems started that far back, right after I moved to here from my previous property which was hilly marginal rough scrub country albiet covered in setaria & toxic weeds.
I did ask the vet about doing the blood tests for sugars etc but he said I should spend the $200 they would cost on a good set of shoes which would help more in the long run. He said many horses on the coastal strip have bad feet these last 2 yrs from the wet & lush grass & that when the seasons changed their feet would too. So that’s why I have been trying again these last several weeks to get a farrier. I can have heartbars put on Sonny tomorrow but as Marty pointed out they may only hold the foot together & do no more because the healing comes from within. I belive they may not help too due to what shoes generally do to hooves. It’s because I understand the healing comes from within that I have been trying for over a year now I guess to use diet to get better hoof growing. So far no joy there. Something is still over riding my efforts. I have to assume it’s the grass since that is the only constant. The only pattern I have so far seen in the whole thing is that sometimes good quality hoof grows, then it goes back to crappy hoof growing. Why?? So there are these bands of good hoof followed by crappy hoof & as I have witnessed this week from that hoof in the photo above the demarcation between good & crappy hoof is quite sudden. It’s the crappy hoof that I have trimmed into now. But I can tell there is good hoof growing down behind it because there is a 1” wide band of better tighter looking horn part way up his hoof. I wonder if I should wait a short while about 2wks I’d say, so the farrier has something better to nail into rather than that big gap. I can now tell the magnetic bell boots are making a difference too, because there is a definite change of texture & colour in the newest growth coming out of the coronet band. Their job is to cause the shunts behind the coronet band to work properly & stay closed so the blood goes down into the hoof to provide nutrition & remove toxins. Currently the toxins are being removed via abscessing. Perhaps it is when the shunts are working that the good hoof grows then something happens & the shunts open thereby short circuting the blood away from the hoof again causing crappy growth. That's more or less what Dr Kohnke told me last November when he told me to use them. Re his food intake. As an example, for the last 8days since the last bout of rain finished he has been in the play pen (1/4ac) which has tall trees over it & it’s the highest point on the property but still gets really boggy in the rain. His diet is ½ & ½ hay to grazing. The hay is 2yr old square bailed dry Rhodes grass straw (moistened) as a filler as much as he wants to eat which amounts to about 4-5 biscuits over 24hrs. I let him out onto an area of same size which is sparse native grass along with some blue couch. I try to match the grazing to the time of day when the NSC’s are lowest in the grass. However there seems to be conflicting advice about what times of day are best for grazing & I wonder if it’s because some literature is from USA or Britain while other is from Aust. Perhaps it’s different grasses & conditions in the different countries. He has been kept ‘in’ like that on & off for the last several months but he does let himself out from time to time & then when it’s raining a lot I have to let him out because the whole place is a slush pit. The only thing stopping him from jumping out this week is how sore his feet are. He can jump 6ft & easily clears normal gates & fences when he has a mind to. However yesterday he pushed through & broke a sawn timber rail to get out & by the time I discovered him he had filled his belly on fresh paspalum regrowth in the back orchard! When it was the right height I had put the horses in to eat it all down & then they were supposed to stay off it until it grew right up again. Not continuing to close-crop it as they do down the back paddock. So already today he has seriously hot front feet today.  During this most recent time ‘in’ I have reduced his grass belly size/volume dramatically. That alone should take a lot of weight off his front feet. It wouldn’t matter if he lost some muscle weight but he has very little actual fatty deposits & no crestiness.
I have watched out for cyclic things to do with his gut by checking his manure daily. Vet said his manure & pee would smell sweet if he had a sugar problem but I haven't smelt that. However it is likely he does have an acid problem but I don’t know what signs to check for that. Of course then there is the bute which itself may be causing gut issues. The NSC’s would only be coming from the grass & I’m sure it must be full to overflowing with them. He gets 1 handful of micronized steam rolled barley every second afternoon soaked to hold the supplements plus that afternoon’s dose of bute. I spent late 2010 & most of 2011 assuming the problem was fungal with added diet issues. However after reading about insulin resistant laminitis & talking to the vet on his last visit I think there is little fungal & mostly dietary issues. I’m certainly not ignoring these things. I have tried my best to solve his problems within my means & it has been a constant worry for me. There are elements of my situation I am currently unable to change or modify but those I do have control over I have tried to change to best advantage. Anyway we'll see what this farrier says tomorrow. This guy is not my preferred choice unfortunately. He sounds a bit rushed. The one I would have preferred was away & didn't get back to me until just after I gave the ok to the second guy last night. Not to worry.
I have no idea of 'farrier etiquite' when it comes to changing from one to another paticularly at the last minute so I'd better stay with the one I gave the ok to unless he turns out to be too rough or impatient, or otherwise treats me or Sonny with contempt. |
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| misstux |
Clarissa, I am in the same camp as the others who have spoken up here. My sweet Dusty was seriously compromised metabolically. Part of what I learned is that most vets don't have the knowledge to deal with that and don't realize it. They will actually tell you to do things that will harm your horse, not out of intent, but out of ignorance. You are NOT going to fix Sonny's feet until you fix the rest. Period.
Melody |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
He's right about the blood tests costing, and they aren't gold standards and can be off. But they do give you a direction to go. He doesn't appear to be Cushionoid, but IR is a definite possibility. You can go ahead on that assumption...Diet, Trim, Exercise (once healthy). Here is a picture of the Founder Trim:
Technically on the diet you need to cut back on his sugars and balance his ration per sample results, all of which is expensive, but for right NOW, cut his hay to 1.5% of his body weight and feed only grass hay that is fair quality. NO sweet feed, NO pasture grass, and NO treats. I feed hay pellets as treats. Right now he has to be on complete stall rest in deep shavings or sand. I give bute to relieve inflammation, but temper it, because it masks pain and they move more. And he needs the farrier. NOW |
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| Spitfire |
I agree with PasoBaby. Make a decision, and get goin' on it. | ||
| Clarissa |
See my post in the thread about his feet for today’s happenings. |