Chris Irwin & respecting the head & neck

Wildhearts · Chris Irwin & respecting the head & neck

I was introduced to Chris Irwin methods this fall and have been working with a CI certified trainer to get my dominant, athletic 5-year-old mare started. I put 3 rides on her as a late two-year-old, then got preggo, had my son and started two businesses, so she's been on the backburner!

I am a slightly obsessive collector of horsemanship info, and jumped at the chance to work with this trainer. It's been really neat seeing a different approach from most of the things I've done recently, and get back into that classical dressage mode. It's done incredible things for Glory, and I can say hands down that I've had the best first 3 rides on her that I've ever had on the many horses I've started.

Many of Chris' methods are along the same lines of Sally Swift, but the one thing that has made the biggest impression on me - and one that I haven't seen anyone else do - is respect the horse's face and neck (the "no-go zone"). Ideally, he says you should never push or pull on the horse's face or neck area, and respect the area around it, too. By pushing or pulling, he means either physically or with your body.

It has done wonders for Glory (and my other horses), and I've started watching my horses and realizing that they really do respect each others' "no-go zones". Except for when they're bullying, they almost always push the body - it's just us predators who always want to go to the face.

Does anyone know of any other natural horsemen who also believe you should be respectful of this area?

PasoBaby_CarolU

We had a discussion a month or so ago about respecting the face and a lot of horses finding it offensive to be touched there. Other then that, no. I can't think of any that talk about that.

Can you explain it farther? I haven't studied him and am unfamiliar with his methods.

I have one horse who keeps you in Zone 1. I wonder what he'd suggest for this kind of horse.

Very interesting! I look forward to reading more!

Chris

I'd like to know more about this, too.

Wildhearts

Hmmm, I might have to look for that thread!

The idea behind the no-go zone is that only bully horses or predators would go directly to the head and no one should pull or push on the area. Instead, for example when haltering the horse, you would ask the horse to bring her head around to you while standing at her shoulder/girth using the "bend button" at the girth.

Another really enlightening thing that I learned from Chris' methods is about "lines". There is a line on horse and human that divides left from right, and another line that divides front from back (on the horse, this goes down by the girth, on the person its along the jeans seam). Dominant horses/people can cross any line, but submissive horses will do just about anything to NOT cross any line of someone higher in the pecking order. Carol, I wonder if this relates to your horse who wants to keep you in zone 1.

Regarding the lines thing, it is extremely interesting to observe once you know the theory - horses will often stop exactly with their line on your line, but not cross it. It's one of those things that sounds really weird, but boy am I ever a believer after seeing it happen over and over - and seeing what happens when you start calling horses on crossing your line. You can just see them going, "Oh no, she figured out the line game!" When you start paying attention, you notice a lot of horses getting points by crossing people's lines, without the person even knowing that the horse is winning the game (and not in a good way for the person!).

Oops, went off on a tangent about lines ... back to being respectful of the no-go zone. Let me say that it is incredibly hard not to push or pull on the horse's head. Even if you're all about natural horsemanship and such, when you start noticing how much pressure you put into the horse's head, it's amazing. And even just to ask the horse to move over, etc - Chris has you always move the body around to get the head where you want it - or invite the head to come to you.

Learning Chris' methods has added some really awesome tools to my toolbox - I've been incorporating them into my usual techniques, and my horses have responded really positively.

whudson

That sounds very interesting. Lines thing is rather confusing though.

But back to the head. The geldings in our herd at the barn constantly play halter tag as in tugging on one another's halter. They are constantly doing it. They push, pull drag around each other. No..."no" zone there. Just an interesting thought as I was reading your post. My horse is quite famous for it and he is pretty low on the totem pole. Out of 20 horses he is maybe 4-5 from the bottom.

I am not disagreeing at all , just wondering what's up there

Wildhearts

That's funny you mention "halter tag", I've actually wondered that too and it's on my "to ask" list! They do seem to go for the face when playing.... If I find out, I'll let you know

Sorry about the lines thing being confusing. The "line" running down the front of us, through nose and bellybutton, is equivalent to a "line" running down the horse's face and between his front legs. The "line" running down where the outer seam on jeans would be is the same as the horse's girth line, dividing front from back.

Basically, you don't want the horse to cross the any of your lines with any of her lines (unless of course you ask her to). He doesn't do the "circling game", he longes horses, but using very specific body language to help the horse soften, bend and relax. I was skeptical at first, but the horses really respond to it in my experience - you keep them interested by changing things up all the time, it isn't about chasing them around, it's about helping them travel better and more comfortably, and building your leadership at the same time. Anyway, definitely different philosophies vs. Parelli.

Sorry about the tangents.... Anyway, as an example of the lines thing, say you're longeing a horse to the left (her left side on the inside of the circle), you ask her to yield her hip and come in, but she keeps going. As soon as she passes your "next" line (whichever one she gets to first) with her line (this will be her girth line), you would get after her to the degree that she dictates.

I apologize, this is hard to explain! I'm just getting comfortable with these concepts myself, but I will try to clarify further if anyone would like.

Yes_But_Neigh

I totally get the line thing! I'm picturing it all in my head and I can't wait to see how it works with Bodie when I see him Monday

Thanks!

whudson

I understand a little better

Just not able to picture too much putting it to play.

Wondering what response you will get re the halter tag thing. Let me know..curious mind

In my experience mares don't do it...just geldings. Actually, the mares at our barn don't play at all.

cynthia peterson

Let me say first Wildhearts I totally understand your obsession of horse information, I have that too! And it drives people who don;t have it nuts! Your question was how other NH trainers/clinicians deal with this question. Believe me, I have studied that point too. The November SC Magazine has a Level With Me article with Linda about leading with the check. We have seen it many times, Parelli, even the Bill Dorrance book. And I think the clue there is to do it in small bites, the main idea is for the horse to follow the feel anywhere on their body. I can totally see how this could be offensive to the horse to begin with. Let me give the example of how well a beloved boyfriend could touch your check or chin for a kiss, and how you could abhor someone else touch anywhere near your face! That's the way I see it, the horse will allow it if you work with it offensive. To come at it without it would cause a offensive block with the horse... and it does. Let me take the catwalk and Pat uproar. IMO Pat *thought* he had done enough to get near that horses's face and the horse thought he didn't. Because it was the very fact of coming toward that horses face (and horse) that caused it, not the bridle.

If we want to go *how* other clinicians think of the concept of the face, way back as far as I could study, the ODG masters, Professor Berry, all had a place to get to gently stroking the horses head as a breakthrough that is greatly valued and the horse will seek.

So that's how *I* see it. Personally i like Irwin too. he has the horse's best in mind.

The lines? I see the same way. In fact for someone to grab me from behind would be the worst thing you could do to me. Don't you think the same idea applies? Work on trust and get everywhere on the horse?

PasoBaby_CarolU

Well, I wasn't there to watch the Catwalk incident so really can't comment on it. I understand the horse had a long standing issue with the bridle, which is why he was sent for the demo.

I do think the head issue is very individual horse-dependent. Just as posted here, some horses are very particular and others are just the opposite, love Zone 1 stimulation. It was over-stimulation of Zone 1 (the Pepe Le Phew game) that got Bruiser to quit biting at Liberty. And believe me, it took a LOT of stimulation before he decided he'd had enough and to step back.

I haven't seen and can't comment on the clip with Linda. But I do remember a very nice clip with Pat and Magic where she is at liberty in the pasture with him and he's stroking her face and talking about how sensitive she is with it. I don't remember exactly what he said, but I remember at the time being pretty moved by it.

I think the drive line in the horse is commonly taught and used. I've never thought about my own drive line, other then where I'm facing, focus and intent. Linda did a very good demo on it with where your belly button is facing and I've had a lot of success when I remain cognizant of it. Again, with some horses it doesn't seem really critical, but with young, green, or sensitive horses, it is absolutely critical.

Chris

Wildhearts, this is very intriguing and I'm ordering Chris's videos on Giddyupflix.

cynthia peterson

The Linda Parelli article was in the last Savvy Club magazine. The "demo" picture horse was Magic and , uh (Sr moment here) Cali (sic?) the Parelli gal who does so well with the Atwood horses and *I think* Pat's right hand man. Actually, it was pretty good, and I used it to show it can be done if done right (even with Magic!) Now Casper just seems to tolerate it even to this day. I still think it wasn't about the bridle with Catwalk, it was about not coming at his "not there, no one gets there" spot, his head. I *think* Pat thought he put enough time in to get there (he certainly had many times before on other horses successfully) and this particular horse took more or Pat for some reason (such as the horse not showing him enough) went to go ahead and found out differently. We have all "been there, done that." That same SC Magazine (Nov.) gives Pat's side for the first time with Linda telling the story.

Again, this is a maneuver every master horseman I have ever read or seen does, gets successfully to the head and strokes gently, as a successful breakthrough point. Now maybe *they* read it wrong, maybe Chris Erwin has it right. But, from my studies that is what I have seen. I do like what I have seen of Chris Erwin and every successful clinician has to have *his* own special thought or movement to stand apart.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Kalley Krickeberg is who trained the Atwood colts. I think Kalley is one of the most natural people with horses I've ever seen.

Not being in the Savvy Club anymore I don't get the magazine. I had thought that the incident with Catwalk was Catwalk being very LB and saying "You and Who's Army!" about the bridle. At least that is what got from 'somewhere'...other accounts? Not sure. I wasn't aware that it was a head shy issue.

Perhaps 'that picture' of the trainer stroking the horse's face at Liberty is BECAUSE of the head permission issue. It shows a level of trust and partnership and maybe that is why they use it. It also seems like a bit of stage to me, since it looks like they're 'whispering' to the horse...no? LOL

My main point here is though that like most things, some horses have issues with something and others don't. Just like Giacomini's tapping, I have horses that if they relaxed anymore they'd fall over.

But others really benefit with a relaxation cue, and especially one that can be done from the saddle without interfering with reins or legs.

I think Chris is right on with the driving line. I also think a lot of horses have head, I'll say "dignity" issues, because it's not like they're really head-shy, but that their head space is within their 'don't go' bubble. A lot of people don't know about this and don't even think about it. I watched Buddy's reaction when my sister would go to kiss his nose...he wasn't happy about it at all. He is one with a big bubble and only lets people in it carefully.

cynthia peterson

I know, Carol, the first thing non horse people want to do is pet your horse on the nose or kiss it!

I sure misspelled Kalley's name (more Sr moment then I thought!

) And I too think she is amazing. Somewhere I heard there are many who tried to "steal" her away from Pat with no success, she's that good.

Wildhearts

YesButNeigh, let me know how it works for you!

Whudson, I'll definitely let you know when I get an answer. I'm going to be interviewing Chris Irwin this winter, so if I don't get an answer before then, I'll just ask the man himself!

Cynthia P, I've got to agree - being obsessed with horse info can drive other people crazy! What is leading with the check? Sorry, I've haven't been involved with Parelli for awhile.

I absolutely agree that how sensitive horses are with their heads are very individual. I've been finding that just respecting the head/neck area by only pushing on the body has really increased my level of leadership. It isn't about not ever touching the head, but keeping your energy down when you're in the "no-go zone" and whenever possible, asking the horse to bring her head to you instead of you going to the head.

Carol, are you talking about the driving line as the line that runs along the scapula? What Chris describes in "don't cross my line" lines are different, running down the front of the face/body and at the girth area. He does also recognize the drive line. My mare is incredibly sensitive to all this body language, and I tell you, if she gets away once with crossing one of my lines, she'll take a mile! Once I clued in, it sure changed my relationship with this very dominant horse.

I also don't know enough about the Catwalk incident to comment - sounds like a number of things contributed to that one going wrong. What did the article by Linda say about it?

Chris, let me know what you think of Chris Irwin's video!

Thanks for all the insights!

cynthia peterson

Wildheart: Oh heck, it is leading by the CHEEK, the horse's cheek, which of course would be the head and tie into the thread! It doesn't make much sense if I misspell it, does it?

To All:
Incidently, in the same November SC Magazine is Linda Parelli's explanation of the Catwalk Incident. It is the first time someone there came out with the full details (at least Linda and Pat's perception of it) and it's a good read. It gives better insight on it. And after all, Linda was there, and Pat told her what he thought, that's as close as you can get other then the other hundreds (maybe thousands there) You always wonder what was going through Pat's mind while it was happening and what he thought of it. And how it all turned out.

whudson

Anybody care to share?

PasoBaby_CarolU

I'm also curious what Linda said. I thought the "first word" was when Pat apologized right after it happened. I don't remember exactly what he said though. Please share what she said.

As for "the drive line," I see Pat and others put it at the scapula. I see it more often at mid shoulder, and that seems to be where my horses put it too. Maybe the exact where is where that horse puts it. The important thing is for the human to recognize and use it. I think it is great that he let's students know how important it is.

All, I find my non-horse friends try to understand me..and love me anyway. Me husband's reaction while Alayna was here, was the same as her dad's. "Do you two talk about ANYTHING besides horses?

Is there anything but horses?

Blue Flame

Pat often ties a SS around the horse's neck so that the drive line runs from withers to shoulder. Others place the drive line at the girth. I place the drive where the riders leg will be in order to be more consistent for the horse.

Linda has often mentioned the belly button and I like Dr. Deb's visualisation of the belly button laser. I find it makes a big difference to the horse's forward progress if you are careful about your aim with the belly button laser.

Referring to lunging and walking around with the horse versus standing still while the horse circles . . . .

Parelli largely considers walking around with the horse as chasing or nagging. Yet others consider standing still while the horse circles as leaving the horse unsupported and maybe a bit lazy and rude. I think there are valid reasons for both viewpoints and it comes down to the discrete release of each step the horse takes.

If a person can ask the horse to move 1 foot over 1 step, without the horse taking another step with another foot that wasn't asked for, then they can release at each step. When the horse is circling, an observer will likely be unable to see these releases at each step - but the horse knows and feels the releases. This then becomes the difference between supporting the horse versus chasing it. (When circling/lunging, I've found that the best results, in a biomechanical sense, come when the handler gets in time with and communicates with the inside hind).

On headspace . . . I've found that any particular horse may or may not want you near their head/neckspace at any time. I've found that whether you are welcome there or not has more to do with your manners than anything else. i.e. having the thought of requesting permission and signalling your intent before reaching for them - many are just surprised by a movement they weren't expecting. Yes, some may be more sensitive about it but you just make adjustments for that.

We've just spent a couple of days with Peggy Cummings and several high headed horses. She showed us how to help them considerably and her methods involved extensive handling of the heads and necks - it really became all about the quality of the connection made with the horse on a physical level. To sum it up, most of the quality of connection is about how the human carries themself, biomechanically connecting to their own core, than anything else. In her words, it was helping the horse to "let go of his own head".

Sidenote: I've read comments by Julie Goodnight and some of her associates about how they consider handling of the muzzle area a no-no - something about it being a submissive thing to do - never bought into that myself and have not had trouble with horses whose muzzles I've handled that couldn't be corrected quickly and easily.

Oops, rambled on a bit there . . . . .

Yes_But_Neigh

cynthia peterson

Blue Flame, you always add good comments I love to read. So just ramble away anytime you want!

I will post a few lines on Linda's comments from the SC Magazine article of the "Catwalk" incident. I will put that in a new thread. I will post it with no comments from myself, just Linda's words (but not the whole pages worth, just the highlights) as I think it adds to giving some answers. From there, you can form your own opinion. And I'm not really trying to bring the whole incident up again, I just think it is significant Linda gave some answers now.

I keep hearing things about Peggy Cummings..... interesting.

Wildhearts

Cynthia - that makes a bit more sense! I was wondering what I was missing!

Carol, interesting about the different drive line areas. I guess I've never really heard anyone but Parelli talk about exactly where the drive line is, so apparently I was accepting that as a universal truth. Funny that I did too, because thinking back, I always found that horses responded to it long before I got to the withers/point of shoulder line. Hmmm....

Blue Flame, super interesting stuff. I need to do some more Dr. Deb reading! I have been amazed by the whole "belly button laser" or "beam" (Doug Mills) or "core" (Chris Irwin) affects the horse, and think that every horseperson should have some knowledge of that. It's like the missing link.

I'm intrigued to hear more about the discrete release of each step if you feel like enlightening me

I am at a point in my horsemanship where I finally understand that it really is all about footfalls/timing/feel, and am a bit enthusiastic/obsessive of learning all that I can about it. This student is finally ready.

Blue Flame

Wildhearts, about the footfall thing . . . . . there are much better people to learn footfall timing from than me, so my post is going to be about the mistakes we make and why releasing each step is important . . . .

The release with each step is something Dr.Deb mentions on her forum and even though she detests PP, it is something that has always been part of the Parelli material.

Even way back in L1 porcupine game there was the "rub, porcupine, rub to a stop" lesson that rewarded the slightest try. However, the deeper meaning of it was not really explained in the materials I have. It wasn't until a L2/3 clinic with Jackie Chant that someone from Parelli said to us about releasing each footfall individually when riding.

I think in Parelli land (and this probably is one of the reasons Dr. Deb gets all anti) two things happen that create a problem that we need to deal with when we get more knowledge.

The first is that the human is happy that the horse moves when porcupined and makes the mistake of thinking that a light touch which gets several steps is a good thing.

The second thing is that once the human gets something going with the driving game, they make the mistake of thinking that this is a better thing than a porcupine game since it has gone from a "touch" to a "suggestion".

In many cases, what happens is that the horse learns to "flee" the touch of the human. The problem does not look like fleeing until you ask the person to move just one foot just one step. In the more pronounced cases, they can't even get their hands on the horse without it taking at least two steps away.

Again, it wasn't until we did a L2/3 clinic with Jackie Chant that it was emphasized to us that next to the friendly game, the porcupine game is the most under-done game. When you think about it, refining the porcupine game IS the way to transfer groundwork to ridden - as contrasted with refining the driving game which transfers to liberty, not the saddle.

To give an inkling of why Dr. Deb. (IMHO) gets so down on Parelli when she sees the horses "fleeing" their human's touch, consider this little extract from Andrew McLean's 7th Principle of training horses – Fear . . . . . . bold emphasis mine. I’ll quote Andrew McLean because he puts it in really plain language.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Thank you Blue...an excellent post. It makes me again appreciate Margaret and our many clinics and lessons. Yes, there is something to be said about hands on help.

My best friend and I were guilty of exactly what you described. Our horses are very sensitive, and it wasn't long at all until our Porcupine game was so soft we didn't even have to touch our horses...just point and we got rear end or front end yields, backs, we were SO impressed with ourselves! We proudly showed Margaret how 'soft' we'd gotten our Porcupine game. LOL That was when she told us we had a very soft Driving Game and had failed our Porcupine Game, to go back and redo it.

At the beginning of the Old Level 2, Pat does a demo about getting in time with the feet, using your hand and your rein to affect each step, to develop a rhythm of pressure and release, and how and when you affect each foot. You are quite right. It is there, in the program.

Your comments about Dr. Deb bring up something I see a lot on here, and that is the assumption that something isn't in the program just because you don't see students doing it right, or you didn't learn it correctly when you were going through the program. Affecting and directing each foot is right there. I think the multiple step mistake Pat even talks about in the Level 1 Controlled Catastrophe lesson.

In both Level 2 and Level 3 the program gets the student to be more and more particular and precise about affecting each foot, timing and release.

I can't tell you how many clinics and lessons that I've been in since, and videos that I've watched of other clinicians, and remembered learning it in the PNH. Leg on, leg off, timing the hips/legs with the hind end and the shoulders and hands with the front.

Of course, I'm getting older and I'm pretty sure I've forgotten well then half of what I've learned over the years. It often takes just a reminder to remember that yes, I DID learn that, I just didn't or don't use and apply what I learned.

One thing I learned a long time ago reading DD's forum was to discount a lot of her barrage against Pat. Something happened between them years ago that DD has not gotten past. The other thing is that she has never done PNH herself, so really doesn't know what is/is not in the program. I find that is true with a lot of detractors.

Going back to the shoulder discussion, I'm not sure how many of you have tried or done this, but you can affect your horse's speed and gait by affecting the shoulder. By walking towards the shoulder you can get shoulder overs and Half-passes at Liberty. Get too far in front of the shoulder and you'll stop and turn the horse. Too much pressure they turn away, but a step back at the right time will bring them in. It's an interesting dance.

Wildhearts

Blue Flame, thank you for that post!

Saddlebag

Oh my, I certainly follow what you are saying about Mr. Irwin's teachings but I have one horse that is quite fond of having his nostrils stroked while I face him straight on. I tried from the side but he didn't want that. I have watched predators stalk large grazing animals and never has one approached straight on from the front. They know the prey can do damage with their front hooves. They will attempt to come in at the prey's blind spot directly behind. A wolf will move in fast to slash the hamstring while the others distract the animal and keep it running. Because I have seen this I've often wondered why some trainers say to never approach from the front when this allows the horse to watch with both eyes.