Concavity

Pyrgirl · Concavity

Cancavity again.

Just a question. Is it possible to have too much concavity?
Also, how deep should the collateral grooves be (next to the frog)?

I don't know the answer to these questions and don't have an opinion - really looking for answers. Thanks.

fairhavenranch

Concavity is a big issue for me too. I'd like to please add to the discussion what do you do when you have no concavity at all.

Autumn

Pete R says you need 3/4 inch on a newly trimmed hoof at the tip of the frog and at the deepest part of the collateral groove back by the heel. If you have none, your horse probably has issues and is walking around on a very thin sole. I have had good luck with my mare getting more concavity following Ramey/ Weltz trim.

fairhavenranch

Pyrgirl

And what does it mean if you have more than 3/4 inch concavity?

Newfman

Some of these questions can more easily be addressed when accompanied by photos. Simply because there are so manyt things that can affect the integrity of the hoof and the support system within it.

The questions are a little too ambiguous, and one would have to write a book to cover all known possibilities. What is happening with Fairhaven's horse may be something totally different from Pygirls and different than Clarissa's etc. One may be a simple fix, one may be a trainwreck.

Not trying to avoid the question, just know that answers that I post tend to be rediculously long as they are, so I thought...if we narrowed it down a little?!?!?

There was also a lot covered in the Sonny's Feet thread.

Newfman

Points to consider,

If you have a good trim, then look at the 'Triangle of elements for a healthy hoof'. Movement, Environment, and Nutrition. http://itsaboutthehorse.myfastforum.org/about2100.html&highlight=
If all those things are covered, then I would look at Boots and pads to get things started.

fairhavenranch

What are the ramifications of excess concavity? Is there such a thing as too much concavity as long as you are trimming to the natural state of the hoof and not overdoing it?

Newfman

I can say I have never heard of it, but I would be a fool to say it has never happened.

If someone were to tell me they have a horse with too much concavity, the image I would immediatley get in my head...

...a hoof with very good caoncavity that has overgrown hoof walls which would give the impression of 'extreme' concavity. I would figure it would just be a matter of time before things started to fail.

That would be my shot in the dark.

Concavity is a function of ver well connected laminae, keeping the distal phalanx posted in a very elevated and proper position. That combimed with strong hoof wall, and thick, well caloused soles will give you convavity. There is an upper limit. The ceiling is just, so high. You would have to start popping P3 out of the top of the hoof capsule, and we know that isn't going to happen.

Make sense?

.

fairhavenranch

Sounds good to me.

Pyrgirl

fairhavenranch

I would love some concavity.

Shoes, pads, boots, daily treatments, aaaakkkkkkk!!!!!

Newfman

Lack of concavity is a pretty serious condition. It sets your horse up for some difficult times if it isn't tended to, especially if you are riding.
The most difficult ones to deal with are the horses hat stand around in a 20x20 pen, with a little low quality hay or a nappy old round bale to eat, mud up to his fetlocks, and nothing else to do...day in ...day out. It is incredibly hard to watch. All I can do is trim their feet and plead with the owner to not ride him or her without proper foot protection, if you must ride at all.

You can only do, what you can do. Education is the best way of handling that situation, but sometimes it falls on deaf ears.

Fairhaven, your horse is lucky to have someone that asks!

Newfman

This is the view that helps to show concavity, or a lack of.

Blue Flame

fairhavenranch

There again I have the opposite problem. My flat footed horses feet splay and flare a lot. They look more like camels then horses. I am serious - one would wear a size 2 shoe. Sigh.

Autumn

Usually, thick walls will contract, thin walls will flare. Although There are probably always exceptions... Hense, Rooster the mule contracts, and Dandy the horse will flare. ugh.

Pyrgirl

Wow, I'm learning alot from this thread and this section of the forum lately! It's making me feel pretty ignorant at times, but I am learning.

And I'm not being lazy about getting photos - I'm working on it. Just that it's total mud out there again. Maybe when it freezes tonight I'll have more chance of success tomorrow. Thanks for posting the view from behind as a model, Newfman. I went and looked at my horse's feet from that angle and almost had a breakdown. Not good. You'll see.

fairhavenranch

I'm going to post mine too when I have some help holding "Motor Mouth" for photos. Incredibly flat.

Pyrgirl

Kim Cassidy

Something else to think about.

Genetics play a role in concavity as well. Pedal bones are not the same in every horse, nor in every hoof. They are not even perfect, normal or the same in foals.

Think about the hoof shape of a Percheron compared to a Morgan, a Standardbred compared to a Thoroughbred.

I know someone who has xrayed and measured over 800 horses (and counting) and guess what, age changes the cuppiness of the pedal bone as well.

So concavity is a mirror of the internal structures. Even if you take a specimen hoof, give it the perfect diet, the perfect environment, etc. As the horse ages, the sole will get flatter. Just like humans shrinking with age.

Nature is functional and perfect in her own way, but it doesn't mean symmetry or perfection as we might define it.

fairhavenranch

I totally agree about genetics. Sometimes I think we blame too much on the environment and try to make changes but forget you can't fight the genetics. My gelding with the flat feet and no soles is a total match to his mother, right down to the softness of the front left outer quarter. All her foals have these traits.

Why does the sole get flatter with age? Does the suspension just give out over time? That's not encouraging news for me. Is there an age range where this starts to happen?

I am rethinking my plan with this gelding and of our two obstacles to my previous plan, his flat feet are one of them.