| Archive for It's About The Horse The Free Forum for those Doing Parelli - and a whole lot More! "Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful." Xenophon (430-355 B.C.), |
| thebundychick |
Cytek Shoes. putting the Moet on ice :D :D :DOk. I promised I was going to Catalogue our Journey with Cytek shoes, and so it begins. Feel free to post questions / feedback / experiencesThis post will be a little background - The next will be about the Cytek Shoe itself. The next will be photos So - I'm a barefoot advocate. ... I know! I know! Why the hell does my horse have shoes I hear you ask! Quick summary: Got Sante as 8yo thoroughbred four years ago. Pidgeon Toed knock kneed. Massive cracks in his feet Barefoot. Was told by all and sundry that he needed shoes because he was a thoroughbred. Me - not knowing any better - went & got him shod. And while sure he wasn't as picky on his feet, over following years i watched his toe get longer... and longer.. and the cracks get wider.. and wider.. Every time I asked the farrier about the cracks the response was "Oh they're just sand cracks, nothing you can do about it, don't worry" So after being encouraged by a friend of mine to do a trimming clinic she was organised. I ripped the shoes off my horse, got the toe length back and proceeded to ride him in ezyboots. The day the shoes came off (sorry about the angles I knew NOTHING about getting a good photo then) 
Front right - 1 week after taking the shoes off 
Immediately the cracks started to receed. However, It seemed if I was a few days late with his trim, or got it slightly out of balance the cracks would run back up and settle a centimetre below the coronet. They never went all the way back up to the coronet (like they were when he was shod). I've put metho, peroxide, iodine, blue stone, pine tar you NAME it - I've stuffed his feet with it. Never been able to get rid of the cracks. I've read forums backwards. I've got all Pete Ramey's, Jaime Jacksons books. I've read their websites backwards. My horse still has cracks. Every farrier I spoke to criticized me because his toes were to short! My agistment managers told me he needed shoes with heart bars, and a brace across the front of the foot to "screw" the crack together. In the two years he's been barefoot. He's had one abscess, and other than that NEVER been lame. NEVER had a day off due to lameness. Riding in the ezy boots he's been pretty sound. But I was still missing something. The more I read. The more I realized "seedy toe" doesn't start out a fungal infection. Seedy toe exists because the toes have got too long. But I'd got the length back right?? RIGHT?? Enter Cytek farrier extraodinair John Briggs. When a friend of mine told me she'd been told to get him out for her horses, i was typically cynical. My Initial reaction was .. "Here we go... another farrier" But I saw this friend a few weeks later and saw the barefoot trim on her horse - and actually said to her "Far out! That is a NIIIICE roll on those feet" She was grinning from ear to ear and said "Yeah, its Johns trim. The guy is amazing!" I saw him a few weeks later, shoing a horse with the Cytek system. I'd always cringed when i saw this horse. Feet about 5cm to long. Lost a shoe every week. Owner had to learn to put shoes on because the cost of getting the "farrier" out every week was killing him. Horse tripped daily. No top line, appeared like a 30yo horse. So I stood back and watched. After he did one foot, he trotted walked the horse out. The difference was ASTOUNDING. So after he'd done all 4, the horse trotted off for his ride. Its been 5 weeks since that horse was shod. Hasn't tripped once. Hasn't lost a shoe. Looks younger!! Has topline. Increadible. I watched him work all day. I asked him questions. I saw the horses come in lame, and trot out sound. I realized he was quoting verbatim the books that I had read. The forums that I had read. He had the same Cadaver pictures I had. And a book full of success stories, Navicular horses, Osteo Arthritic horses, Ringbone, all having been reversed by this shoeing system. I was very very interested in what he had to say. So I finally confessed: "My horse has seedy toe". His immediate response without missing a beat: "His toes are too long" It wasn't the response i was expecting from a farrier, so immediately i was interested. I explained that Sante's feet were tiny, and that I already copped so much criticism for having his feet so short. He said he totally understood, but it didn't change the fact that his feet were to long. WOOW!! So after watching him work all day - I bought Sante over for him to have a look at. He commended me on my trim. Said that I'd done a really good job. wall length wasn't bad at all, frogs looked fantastic. heels were brilliant. BUT the toe was to long. He basically said with to length, it can be taken back to the white line. Which is what he did. Immediately Sante stopped "paddling" iwth his front feet, AND stood squarer. So, for three weeks, he reviewed Sante every week. Was very impressed with his rate of growth, and for three weeks, the cracks have grown out. Always lurking in the back of my mind is his comfort. And while his stride seemed nicer, I was always aware (ever since he's been barefoot) that he has been slightly tentative. even in boots he will be "picky" about where he walks, He always felt like he was "holding back" on me. So I thought what the heck. Got absolutely nothing to lose. Why not try the Cytek System |
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| thebundychick |
Ok. so its probably best to start with what a Cytek shoe isn't.
Cytek ISN'T a normal rim shoe. Yes it nails through the outer wall of a horses foot, but it is by no means a rim shoe. If you look at the photos (below) you can see that its much much wider than a rim shoe. It also sits a lot further back on the foot than a rim shoe. So what IS Cytek? Cytek is a shoe designed for sole support. Its a lot wider than the rim shoe, and fitted correctly, supports the pedal bone & sole, not the outer wall. Cytek works on the principle that there is nothing on the bottom of a horses foot that wasn't intended to touch the ground. Or, in the case of shoeing, there's nothing on the bottom of the horses foot that isn't design to bear weight. They DON'T trim the foot in order to accept a shoe. They trim the foot as if the horse were to be barefoot - optimal trim - short toes, heels back, walls level with live sole - never never never touching live sole. Once the trim is done, THEN they fit a shoe to the foot. The shoe sits further back on the foot, keeping the toe open, so the horse can self trim. The position of the shoe is more "under" the pedal bone, giving support and protection to the sole whilst still allowing the frog contact with the ground (helping the hoof mechanism). Because the outerwall is level with the live sole, and the shoe is much wider than a rim shoe, the "load" is spread evenly throughout the entire foot. instead of the wall taking the full force of the stride. The shoe is steel, and due to the way its fitted doesn't actually require fitting. That said, you can give it a couple of good whacks with the hammer to give / take a little concavity as needed. Over the following days, the shoe gets a build up of fine grit between the shoe & sole. This shouldn't be cleaned out. it acts as a perfect cushion between the two surfaces, and actually helps with exfoliating the sole, as the hoof mechanism keeps working the dirt through the shoe and out again. OK, so what has changed for my horse? His Stride has become slower, and more relaxed. His gaits & transitions are smoother. His stamina has increased - Had a massive ride on Sunday are a VERY NOTICABLE reduction in sweating. Offered me gaits I didn't know existing in him - extended trot. Offered me collection! Pretty much all day- I ride in a rope halter, so this was pretty awesome. It just took the slightest bit of pressure on the halter, and a little leg pressure and voila we were all fancy! He kept this up all day. After a 1/2 rest on Sunday he looked like he was ready to go again. Very nice forehand turn - no longer "pivots" around on his HQ. Video on youtube showing before and after shots. I really like the fact that he appears "softer" in his stride. Will take more footage this weekend to show 1 week on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBjzdmbFQxE |
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| thebundychick |
The barefoot photos were taken three weeks ago. The shod photos were taken on Saturday (few hours after the fact)
Front left 
Front left 
Front right 
Front right 
Shoes. 
Front right 
Front right 
Front right close up of toe 
Other angle 
Front left 
Front left close up 
Front left 
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| thelmanelle |
All my horses are barefoot. But, John can not take a pebble. It really hurts him. I have tried for years to help him. Finally, I accept he has to at least have front shoes after6 years. Why should I make him suffer over my trying to make his hooves tougher?
So I made a choice to help him when we ride...He is my best gaited horse, a smooth ride. But, he needs shoes for his tender hooves. It is not a guilt trip. I have finally realized it is not a guilt trip. |
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| thebundychick |
Your right. I feel so much *BETTER* I'm very happy with this shoeing method. I'm convinced that its not detrimental to the hoof mechanism, and that puts me at ease. When i get time (later today) I will discuss the ins & outs of the Cytek shoe and why its different. |
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| Julie |
I have to say that it sounds like a good farrier, rather than a good system. We have been through cyteks and out the other side, now use natural balance, all with the same farrier, who was cytek trained too, | ||||||||
| Julie |
I have to say that it sounds like a good farrier, rather than a good system. We have been through cyteks and out the other side, now use natural balance, all with the same farrier, who was cytek trained too,
I remember him saying its the difference in a horse running in trainers and running in wooden clogs. its about optimum breakover |
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| thebundychick |
Yes!!! Yes!!! |
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| karmikacres |
Sorry, but if horses were meant to have square toes, they would have square pedal bones....
Mike |
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| thebundychick |
I'm not 100% convinced either way. I've seen wild horse feet with a squared off toe, as well as perfectly cyclindrical. I think a lot depends on terrain. In terms of Sante's trim. the Square toe is a result of unloading the wall while he was barefoot. Something you can't reverse straight up. I will talk to John tonight to discuss this with him, but i'm fairly confident that now that I have the shoes on, his toe doesn't need to be that square, and will probably change over the next few weeks. Will be taking plenty of photo's so will be interesting to map the changes in his feet. Its good to note the shoe itself doesn't have a square toe 
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| Spitfire |
Woaaahh! That's a hairy little TB you have there! Don't worry, I love OTTBs - we have three in the paddock at home, all as quiet as quiet and with lovely feet. One has full shoes as she works on rocks, one is barefoot as he works on sand, and one has front shoes as he lives on rocks and spits out less foot then him trims.
Anyway. The part that worries me is the "no fit required" part. I have my horse hot-shod (yes, I'm an ex-BFer) and my farrier fits those babies like nobodies business. I couldn't come at having shoes "fitted" to my horse without them being in some way altered to actually replicate the horse's wall. My gal has wonky hind feet - just the way she is built, and any farrier or trimmer who says that they can trim it out of her will not be touching her! - and it's important that her shoes match her foot, otherwise she'll rip her legs open on them. It's not that her walls are flared, but that the wall (which grows tight to the white line) follows a bone structure that is kinked slightly. Interesting hooves, and confirmed by two vets and three farriers that her "kink" is actually quite ok. Erm, how this turned into "about my horse" I have no idea... Oh yes. I am very sceptical of any shoe that doesn't require some degree of fitting. I believe you can trim Eponas to fit? The Cytek (BTW Cytek shoes are actually BANNED from being named on one of Australia's biggest horse forums. If you post the work "Cytek" your post will read C**** - interesting!) doesn't look too easy to actually custom fit. |
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| thebundychick |
Heeeeeeeeeey, you knocking mah poneh's feathers 
The thing that took me three weeks to get my head round was the huge difference in the fitting of the shoe. John is adamant that you shouldn't have to make the hoof fit the shoe. He trims the hoof without a shoe anywhere near it. And he's always saying to the customer as he's trimming. "You trim from the bone out" "you trim to suite the pedal bone". "You look at nothing else but your foot markers, trim from inside out" Its like a mantra! Once you get your head around the fact that the shoe is there to SUPPORT the hoof mechanism the horse has, not to correct it, not to get in the way of, the fact that "it doesn't get fitted" isn't a bad thing. The Cytek simply acts as an "even weight distributor" and sole support. Thats it. Its not corrective shoeing. Its simply protecting what the horse has. John has shod nearly 20 horses at my Agistment facility, all different hoof shapes / sizes / problems using the same technique. 1/ Trim from the bone out 2/ Support the foot Its mind blowing!!! And As Julie said - so much depends on the farrier, and his understanding of the foot And funny you say about the reaction to it. I'm on another farrier forum, and they HAAAAAAAATE these shoes. OMG The reactions they have when you mention the C word. You'd think they're going to have a heart attack! |
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| karmikacres |
It sure looks square in the pictures. IIRC, the wild horse study referencing square toes was done in the spring, so the horses were digging for forage. Mike |
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| thebundychick |
I might duck out there tomorow and take a few pictures from a few different angles, remember when I uploaded them that I wasn't fussed with my photography 
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| Clarissa |
I certainly hope this works for you Bundy. If I trimmed Sonny’s feet back that short he would be lame for days!
You are just trying to fix the toe cracks aren’t you? Your horse is not soft footed usually is it? Will take the shoes off after his feet are better? What are those little studs for under the toes? You wouldn't want them to get caught on a wire fence for example. 
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| thebundychick |
Thanks heaps Clarrisa - I don't want to rejoice to early, but I admit... I'm trying to be quietly confident... Its odd, because I can honestly say that Sante responded *really* well to the trims that John did. I mean *really well*. That said, I'd been conditioning him for it with my trim, and John actually said to me, "The only reason I can be this dramatic with his feet, is *because* you've already conditioned the soles to take it, otherwise he'd be lame. (without shoes). If john were to do that trim on Sante say 2 year ago, he'd be dog lame barefoot, but sound with the shoes. Yeah, I'm just tryign to fix the cracks, but also to make him as comfortable as I possibly can. The plan, at this stage is to take the shoes off once the cracks are grown out. Thats the good thing about the Cyteks, John says that they assist in conditioning the foot for barefoot. The studs are for extra traction if your riding on rocks or tarmac. They're not too deep, so I'm not to worried about him getting his foot stuck any more than he normally used to being barefoot  (well.. he *is* special)
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| appellativo |
Well the shoe is NEARLY round!
I did notice on one foot the shoe extends a fair bit past the back of the hoof, but on the other hoof, not at all...is this true or is it an optical illusion? 
I'm glad its working for you. I think this is one of those things where if it's applied smartly with a lot of thought going into it, apparently works out for the best. This and the eponas makes me wish I knew how to nail on a shoe so I can try it out. I guess I'll have to find someone to teach me..... 
I wonder why some are so rabid against it? It's a steel shoe, right? Designed to support the hoof? I can't see anything that just makes it the Devil itself if you have a farrier mindset, not a Strasser mindset. |
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| RickB. |
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| thebundychick |
Apellativo - Not sure - I think its his excessive hair throwing it out - BUT i'm going to see him this afternoon - so will take more pictures.
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| thebundychick |
OK.
Went out and spent an hour after work with Sante this arvo. Feet look good. Was tempted to take a tape measure out and measure the regrowth from coronet to top of crack - then realized I couldn't steal one from work. So will steal one from home and start the exercise on Saturday. But after two days of very light showers, his feet have not cracked any further. Previously it only a few hours of "wet" for his feet to soften and the cracks to spread. A few months ago, one crack traveled a full centimetre overnight. His butt looks different. Have taken a photo, and when I'm on my computer I will upload it - there seems to be more definition in his hind quarters - Hopefully I have a recent "butt shot" for comparison. He is moving VERY well. chased a horse a good forty metres DOWN HILL in a canter (ears pinned / teeth bared the whole time  ) - I noticed immediately that when he pulled up from this little game, his hind quarters didn't give out like they normally do.
Will have more on Saturday - didn't ask anything of him today. He saw the Chiropractor on Monday - who did a LOT of work on his right hind hock - diagnosed arthritis so Sante was a bit sore & sorry - I purely wanted to see how he was feeling today. Its WAY to early to say, but I'm hoping the shoes will assist in aleviating some of the symptoms of the arthritis. |
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| ForgeNHammer |
I haven't seen too many coffin bones shaped like a cytek shoe. If you want a blunt toe use a nbs shoe or find a farrier who can shape one. Cytek shoes are not shapable therefore the foot is fit to the shoe. It's definatley not a round shoe by any means. If you want sole support why not use equipak instead of letting it pack with poop and pee dirt? Not being a jerk, just really cant see the benefit in something you can't fit to the foot. | ||||||||
| Julie |
The little studs are tungsten to prevent excessive wear as the material is softer than a normal shoe. | ||||||||
| thebundychick |
Gah! Want to go into more detail, but am beyond exhaustion at the moment.
summary: AWESOME FREAKING WEEKEND. Observations: Long stride walk. Loose walk Not bouncy, but free if that makes sense. Transitions are REALLY NICE Very smooth trot He is using his hind quarters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is HUGE for us, I can FEEL his hindquarters now in the stride. Especially uphill. I have never experienced that, and was kind of used to being left with "no horse" under me, as he dragged himself up on his front legs. - I didn't actually realized that thsi is what was happening until riding this weekend. Collection is amazing. I got the friend who rode him in the "before" footage of the video to ride him again today just to see what differences she felt. (before I told her abut the differences i felt) She basically listed all of the above. Her MAJOR stress was on the fact that he was REALLY using his hind quarters. Will reply to other posts tomorrow. Have hit the wall. Need sleep
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| Julie |
You can't shape cytecks as the material they are made of cannot be heated or hammered to change the shape.
The difference is the breakover point which allows the horse to lift his leg differently which can change the stride. But this works the same as natural balance basically. |
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| ForgeNHammer |
You can put breakover anywhere on any shoe. | ||||||||
| thebundychick |
I was watching John work again on Saturday - and he was shoeing a new horse. I watched him compare sizes on two Cyteks, before he announced to the owners that in this instance he wasn't going to use the Cytek. That this horse was between sizes, and it wasn't going to work. He pulled out the Natural Balance shoes - modified it as he needed, and fitted the shoe. I asked him why he couldn't use the Cyteks. He mentioned that the Cyteks are good for about 90% of horses. (which is a hell of a lot) But occassionally he sees a foot that simply can't use the Cytek. whether the shape be wrong, or the foot be between sizes, and in those circumstances you can't run with "near enough is good enough" so he uses the Natural Balance shoes. It was *REALLY GOOD* having him explain that - and doing whats right for the horse, instead of fitting an ill fitting shoe. |
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| thebundychick |
Updated photos. 26/09/10
Front left 
Front right 
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| ForgeNHammer |
This is 100% an ill fitting shoeing. The foot is with out a doubt dubbed to the shoe all the way around the foot. I think farriers get turned on to this stuff because there is such little work involved in doing it and, just like any trend, people are going to want it. But when farriers are skilled in their trade, they dont need "fad" shoes to put breakover in a certain spot. |
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| thebundychick |
[quote="ForgeNHammer"]
Forgenhammer - can you give me a little more info please: Can you explain to me how / why you think its ill fitting or "dubbed" (what is dubbed?), where abouts is it ill fitting - in my very unprofessional opinion it looks like it fits fine - so I want to understand what you see. Also - how does an ill fitting shoe affect the foot in this application. ie, is an ill fitting cytek shoe WORSE than an ill fitting rim shoe etc. Should I be experiencing all the changes I have been with an ill fitting shoe? Wouldn't I expect my horse to be lame? Would love some extra info on this one
Thanks
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| ForgeNHammer |
The green line shows how the foot was fit to the shoe. The red line shows where the foot would be if not fit to the shoe. You can also see in this pic that the shoe is more to the inside as well. Dubbed, is rasping striaght down to the shoe (fitting the foot to the shoe). Doesn't matter what type shoe, ill fitting is bad either way. Cytek shoes make it difficult to fit because they can't be shaped. Horse might not be lame...yet  . As for the chages...is it possible you might be pretty excited about this new different shoe then anything else?
Ps. Why worry about breakover so much yet, leave all the flaring? |
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| thebundychick |
Forgenhammer thanks *very* much for your reply - couple of clarifying points so I've got my head around it:
Could the angle of my photo be giving a false "reading" on the lengths etc. All I'm seeing in different in the redline vs greenline scenario is a major mustang roll or equivalent - is this what your pointing out? Also - when you say more to the inside, is that the shoe sits "under" the foot (ie to small) as apposed to the foot sitting in/on the shoe (level with outer wall). or do you mean its actually fitted to far to one side? Sorry if I don't make sense..
I think I know what you mean - making a foot "smaller" or taking off excess here and there so it aligns with the shoe - is that right? I watched John fit these shoes, and when he trims the foot, he doesn't have a shoe anywhere near it. He trims the foot from the "inside out" gets it to where the foot needs to be - and THEN he brings over a few different shoes to look at sizes etc. The only rasping he does on the outside of the foot once the shoe is fitted is to complete the cynches on the nails.
I've thought long & hard about this one. Yes - I am excited about this new different shoe. You're right. But I don't think it finishes there. Its because I've had such a mental brace against shoeing (Lets be honest!) I watched my horses feet getting longer, I watched these cracks go straight throught the white line, and all the way to the coronet, and as I said in my original post. I tried EVERYTHING barefoot, and couldn't make it better for him. My excitement is because i finally feel like I might possibly have the answer. Its WAAAY to early to be 100% sure. Don't get me wrong - I'm being completely clinical about my observations - making a point of disconnecting the heart from the head - as well as getting other people who rode my horse barefoot to ride him again now and see whether they see a difference - so I can be doubly sure that I'm not letting emotion or wishful thinking get in the way of what is actually happening. The cracks are stable at the moment - but every time I see him I'm preparing myself for the possibility that they've moved again.
Ive found that bringing his breakover back completely changes his stride - he no longer paddles. (throws his legs out to the side as he runs, which bloody hurts when you get in the way). And it also affects how his foot "lands" on the completion of the stride - throwing out the natural "shock absorber" that the foot should be. Having thoroughbred feet (soft & flat), and leaving the flare exacerbates the cracks (this has been my experience having him barefoot - it may be a different story now that he's shod again?) All of the above are my experiences with my own horse - I'm not speaking in general terms, just personal experience. In terms of lameness - If / When he pulls up lame - I will be posting about it as well - Its all part of the journey
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| thebundychick |
OK, tomorrow I'm getting a photo of my horses rear end. Its huuge!
Only did a very short ride this weekend - totally ferral weather - but my Immediate observations: Feels "bigger" to sit on - this sounds ridiculous i know, but his back feels thicker, or musclier, its like as though he's using all four feet, not standing with all his weight on his forequarters. Other major observation, - really REALLY using his hindquarters going uphill. Last week, it was intermittant, he was using his HQ but wasn't able to sustain it. this week on the ride over, he was powering uphill, and I could feel his hips swinging in the walk. I'm really enjoying riding him - After 4 years, i'm not worrying about his feet so much. |
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| Chablis |
That's good to hear, thebundychick. Can't wait to see photos. 
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| misstux |
Woohoo! It's all about what works for your horse. And this is working. | ||||||||
| thebundychick |
OK
So its been JUST under five weeks, and me - being the slightly worried owner that I am - asked John to reshoe Sante. He was very obliging, he took a look at him, and deadpanned to me "Jane, he really doesn't need doing. it hasnt been six weeks, the feet look bloody fantastic" I simply convinced him that i was an overly worrisome owner, who finally appeared to be on a winner with Sante's feet, and would rather shoe a week early, than leave it a week, which sets his progress back. John, being John, obliged and Re did his feet. Front Left 24/10/10 
Front Right 
Front left bad angle? looks like half his wall is missing, but its not 
Front right - another not so fantatsic angle 
FL - to show that the crack isn't continuing to "split" up the hoof wall 
FR - ditto above 
So the shoes took a lot of convincing to get off. they were on good!! Under the shoe was a build up of what I can only describe as silt. it wasn't dirt as such, definately no rocks or bit stuff, just a really fine silt, that was moulded to the shoe as well as the sole of sante's foot. We simply scraped it all away, and gently scratched around looking for live sole plane. I *really* wanted to get photos of what we saw when we pulled the shoesw off, but today of all days, John was on a really tight schedule, and the entire shoeing process took 20 minutes. (Gotta love prior & proper preparation) Will definately get them for next time. there was no smell. No thrush, no dank / rotting / yuk smell - which i was pleasantly surprised about, considering we've been having four seasons in one day for the last month at Peats Ridge. His soles look REALLY GOOD!!! I am so thrilled with the progress. I pointed out to John that the crack still appeared to travelling up towards the coronet - it grew down for three weeks, then appereared to head back up again. John told me not to worry about that yet. He's basically said that as a pidgeon toed horse, its most probably uneven loading on the foot, which is not something you can "correct" at this stage of his life. He told me we should first concentrate on getting the "splayed" part of the crack fully grown out (and as you can see, we are well on the way) and then we will take a closer look at the fact that it still appears to be travelling (mind you, you'd have to agree its more like a hairline crack now). EDIT: I found a few photo's of Sante's feet when I took his shoes off!!! Go back to my original post and you can see small versions of the photos. IF you want to see the bigger ones you can find them here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/25380763@N04/ |
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| Spitfire |
I would be concerned about the fact he only takes 20 minutes to shoe the horse. It takes my farrier around an hour to shoe mine - but then again, mine are hot shod (and very well behaved). Guess I'm spoiled. | ||||||||
| Spitfire |
Oh, and I'm a five weeker too. Mine just got done on Thursday - four weeks and six days. Fusseh, fusseh owners. My friend, who has a TB, can get away with 6-7 weeks (well.... the horse's feet don't appear to change too much, and she HAS got nice feet for a TB) but one of mine requires new shoes on the dot of five weeks. Grows a LOT of good-lookin' foot.
You know how you get the "typical crap TB foot"? Well, Sante looks like he has a "typical NICE TB foot". There are two of these at home - both ex-racers with great TB feet. Big strong clumpers. |
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| thebundychick |
Awww Thanks heaps spitfire Its been a very very long journey for me. And I've cried buckets over his feet. We are so close. Sooooooo close.
It might have been a little bit longer than 20 minutes - but as I said - the poor guy had been stood up by a client, and then had three shoeings 50km up the road to be done by a certain time, in order tohave his apprentice back at a place 85km away from the second shoeing
The reason sante was so easy to shoe - He just stands there, lifts up the foot the farrier wants, and then goes to sleep. (I love my horse, he's better behaved for the farrier than me!!) And also - as you pointed out - The cyteks don't get hotshod. So its a much quicker process
*usually* He takes a good 45minutes to shoe a horse - because he explains what he's doing - and between doing each foot, walks / trots the horse out so you can see the difference. |
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| Spitfire |
Ahhh gotcha!
I'm hearing you - bloody hooves! |
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| thebundychick |
Tell me about it! 
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| appellativo |
from the end of page two: Forgenhammer said, "Ps. Why worry about breakover so much yet, leave all the flaring?"
From what I've learned, flaring should be dealt with at ground level. To try to rasp off all the flare all the way (or even partway) up the wall, would be to unnecessarily thin the wall. The part of the hoof that is coming into contact with the ground (ie all the weightbearing parts at the bottom of the hoof) is what most affects movement. Thus, working the hoof to attain proper breakover and dealing with flare at ground level only, makes the most sense. enabling proper 'breakover' entirely around the hoof will allow the flare to simply grow out, enabling better connected wall to grow in. disclaimer: I am not a professional; simply one that has at least 300 hours studying theory and two years of trimming experience on eight horses. |
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| ForgeNHammer |
Flares get rasped off and how much depends on the foot. If there is a lot obviously I can't take it all off because it won't leave any foot on the bottom. Never seen any adverse effects of taking off flares off. I feel like bent horn doesn't support a 1200 lbs animal. I shoe mostly hunters and show jumpers, around 275 of them and never had one go lame from taking flares. | ||||||||
| appellativo |
good to know
forge, do you have any specific knowledge and experience with trimming a very crooked conformationally horse? Could you if you haven't already, pop over to my thread on corrective trimming and chime in? I'd appreciate your input. |
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| thebundychick |
Updated pictures. We are so close to having a "normal" foot.
Frong Right 04/12/10 
Front Left 04/12/10 
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| RickB. |
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| thebundychick |
Ya know, when John saw Sante's feet, he took one look at me, and said" You know those rasp marks don't work, right?" And like you.. he's right. I was the one who put the rasp marks in - on advice from someone else. I hadn't bothered previously, because I didnt' see the point - the idea of the rasp marks, was to spread the load of the wall horizontally across the rasp mark, and not allow it to continue up the wall, right? so why not just unload the wall of the extra load? Do you think the continued splitting is now a fungal thing, or a load thing? The splays are growing out really nicely, a few more centimetres and they'll be gone, but the continued cracking is annoying me. I'm thinking its fungal? |
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| RickB. |
The theory behind the horizontal wall etching is a good one. Unfortunately, because you didn't etch deeply enough, it was doomed to fail. 
With regard to unloading the wall, that too is a good approach except that even when you unload the wall under the crack, you still have the flares at the toe pillars and transferring the load to them just forces them to pull further away from the center line of the hoof capsule which in turn causes the crack to continue. Its one of those results due to the Law of Unintended Consequences.
IMO, both.
It Depends. It may also be that there is just an accumulation of environmental debris in there that is actig like a splitting maul. Many people just ignore it. I prefer to use a Dremel tool, resect the crack till its clean and then re-suppirt the wall/capsule integrity with a band that has adjustable tension, and or use shoes with toe quarter clips to help stabilize the hoof capsule. And, sometimes, both, depending. |
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| appellativo |
Perhaps you can check out the foot soaking for fungal on hoofrehab.com. Pete has said that with horses with perpetual cracking issues, they might have to do a 'once a week forever' soaking regimen.
http://www.hoofrehab.com/wallcracks.htm and scroll down/read down to 'fungal complications' PS I love the Davis soaking boots. |
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| thebundychick |
Rick, lots of food for thought. you are a gem.
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| thebundychick |
So today was Our fourth shoeing with the Cytek system (being the slack ass that I am, forgot to post pictures of the third)
Summary: Still very happy with the shoes. Observations. Cracks are still continuing up the hoof towards the coronet but in a hairline crack now. There is no flaring of hte crack in the lower third of the hoof. Frogs are clean. Nil evidence of bruising - on the second shoeing i noticed bruising (from the first shoeing) on the white line, not sure what cause it, however haven't seen it on the last two shoeings, so not to concerned about it. Soles look *really good* Its been very wet here in NSW over the last few weeks and I was expecting his feet to absolutely stink - but am pleased to report his feet were in very good condition. Nil smell, frogs look absolutely fantastic, lots of build of up dirt / silt under the shoe, but no smell, soles in VERY good condition. For the first time in 4 years Sante had to have a tiny little bit trimmed off the sole of his front left foot because it had "built up too much". THis is unheard of for my flat footed, pidgeon toed, knock kneed thoroughbred. I am posting photos I took of his feet today (sole shots only before & after trims) Will get more photo's tomorrow of the lateral shots. Front left pre trim 
Post trim 
Back left pre trim 
Post Trim 
Front right pre trim 
Post trim 
Back right pre trim 
Back right post trim 
Front left completed (previously labelled back right because i'm clearly defective. 
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| thebundychick |
Visited Sante again today and got front & sides shots of all feet.
A few things: All the missing wall down the front of the foot is now man made. I got my farrier to "clean up" the cracks, and just dig them out to open them up. I've decided this is the last time I'll ask him to do it, as I'm not sure whether I'm interferring with the overall strength of the foot as a unit - which coupled with the pidgeon toed / uneven weight distribution is not helping the cracks to actually grow out. Time will tell. Either way - the cracks are growing out as a hairline crack, there is no flare on the lower third of the foot to cause them to splay as they were. Front left 
Front right 
Back left 
Back right 
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| appellativo |
Well there is no denying the improvement, is there??! :D | ||||||||
| ForgeNHammer |
Not trying to be a turd here but, those feet have taking a turn for the worse. I can't see one thing about that job that would help that horse. Look how thin the wall is due to the extremely fine punched shoe, and in the one pic the toe quarter of the shoe is actually sticking out. Nothing about these feet IMO call for a shoe to be set back either. Form equals function. | ||||||||
| appellativo |
I'm just goin' off of the horse moving better and the crack being gone...those seem like big deals to me. Admittedly I am not an experienced farrier though. | ||||||||
| thebundychick |
Can you mark up the picture where you think the wall is thinned out? All I know is his movement is so much better than it was before. The flare is gone, when it comes to aesthetics, I'm really not picky. I'm not the type to jump up and down because it doesn't look "pretty" I just want it to work. I can see what you're saying about the toe quarter, but again, it doesn't bother me, as its not a traditional rim shoe, the shoe at the quarter, is extremely wide, which distributes the weight across the pedal bone, not over the wall, so the fact that the shoe "looks" wrong doesn't worry me so much - it just doesn't hasn't affected his movement |
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| Clarissa |
Bundy, is this shoeing to replace being barefooted & is that because you have decided he is best kept shod or trying to transition him again to bare?
I have been watching his progress incase you are transitioning to bare via these particularly designed shoes. If they help him they may help Sonny. However I have to agree with forge re the progress being backward now. Things I noticed in the latest photos are:- *the waves appearing at the coronet which shows the hoof internals are not responding favourably; *the series of rings indicating any of several things from recurrent inflammation & maybe pain, wet & dry housing & general weather, regular changes to diet in any case not very good signs; *the protruding shoe; *fact that the crack was not growing out indicates there is still too much ‘meat’ or leverage at the sides of his hoof causing that weakness up the center. I wondered if the farrier is allowing that shoe to protrude on purpose in an attempt to help that crack by spreading the base under it & avoid the leverage somewhat. Time will tell there. Regarding what forge said about the thinner walls, the way I see it this new method is to help the hoof & 1 benefit is hopefully thicker walls. However the older thinner wall has to grow down so for that period the wall that is nailed into will appear to be thinner until the new thicker wall grows in. That would take 6mths I assume. Since the original post of photos about these new shoes was 24th Oct last year, the new thicker wall is still a month or 2 away from appearing at the rasped bevel position. Thinking about what Appel said about the horse moving better, any horse would most likely move better once shod. Like the difference between us walking on the gravel without & then with shoes. We are going to move better short term with any shoes. But those shoes may not be a good long term fit & in time our feet will get sore & or misshapen. Again it’s whether you are planning for the shoes to be the end all or just a stepping stone to bare again, or actually what’s best for the horse long term. |
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| thebundychick |
The thing with the photo that I *think* forge is referring to (back right?) - and this is my fault - I completely forgot to mention this. - we put a rasp straight down the "middle" of Sante's foot a while back, and his foot is actually uneven. Its not symmetrical. I can't remember which side its out on, but john has kicked the shoe out a little to compensate for the fact that his foot is "wrong" - its bigger on one side than the other.
Clarissa - yep - he was barefoot, but I was having trouble with seedy toe which i thought was causing flare, but its the other way around.
So put these shoes on him, because trully - i had nothing to loose. He's been rim shod, barefoot, and as they say "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result" I had to do something different. Rings at the coronet I'm not so worried about - he's housed outside. constant changes in weather, way to much rain = way to much sugar, and his paddock gets rotated from "normal dry grass" to "improved pasture" which I hate hate hate .
Re the crack. I've spoken openly to John about it. There is no more "flare" - ie, the crack isn't "splitting" like it used to (see older photos) and I asked john the other day why its still cracking. He basically told me straight, that I may never get it to grow out. The fact of the matter is - that while sante is standing squarer, he's still pidgeon toed and knock kneed. Which means his weight distributes differently. John told me not to be impatient (ha!) to give it a bit more time, and (not to assume the cracks are fungal and hack away at them) he said it might simply be a case of flexion in the foot caused by the way sante "uses" his feet. Either way. I'm under strict instructions to be patient at give him time. Trully, sante's feet increadibly different from say 12 months ago. There is massive improvement. I simply need to continue with my process of elimination. For the short term - his toes are short, and he is sound. I will continue taking photos and giving John the third degree
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| Clarissa |
Yes Bundy I certainly remember how bad his seedy toe was. There is no denying the overall improvement. Do you think you will try to transition him back to bare once his feet are all fixed from cracks, fungus, etc?
It's a shame his paddock care is not more even with regards to how many days he spends in each type of pasture. Obviously that is one of the reasons for the rings that are showing up & growing down from the coronet. He is obviously prone to low level laminitis from the rich grazing in some paddocks. Wasn't that the reason for his seedy toe problems in the beginning? You thought the pasture was too rich but it was the only place to agist him or something? |
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| Chablis |
Hiya Bundy.
I think the 'thin wall' shots were the post trim sole shots in your post dated 16 Jan. The nail holes are very close to the outer wall of Sante's hooves which would weaken them? |
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| thebundychick |
Oh definately. The plan is to fix the feet, and then gently transition him back to barefoot If I had my way - He' live in a dry lot, and be fed free range grass hay 24/7 *sigh*. I just came back from Merriwa, where my friends horse has been spelled while they work on putting her in foal, honestly, it took my friend and I, both sets of hands on the nippers to cut through the feet. thats how rock hard her feet are. its so dry out htere, and the forage has NIL sugar in it, ALL the horses have the most fabulous feet. I actually tore a muscle in my finger trying to use the nippers. Whereas- I've used the same blunt rasp on sante's feet for two years!! I actually bought him with the seedy toe, but all the farriers i spoke to kept telling me it was "sand cracks" and nothing i needed to worry about. It got to the point where i could put a 50c coin between the gap in the foot (see the photo 6 weeks after pulling shoes off in my original post- even THAT photo was an improvement of what he was) and i started to get really worried. THAT sent me on the beginning of this rather epic journey. I have a life plan in action at the moment. I'm going back to study for 12 months, and after that, I'll be working again, earning good money, the first thing i'm going to do, is buy my own property out west where there is no green grass, and move my horses there! |
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| thebundychick |
Oh OK. Thanks for that I can see what your saying Will keep an eye on it next trim I guess it would weaken them, but I suppose because the walls aren't 100% load bearing its not as critical? (ie the shoe disperses the weight over the sole of the foot, not just on the wall)
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| thebundychick |
I am so excited!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm moving Sante!!! To his own private paddock, with grass containing a MUCH LOWER SUGAR level than his current agistment. I can't wait!! He will be in one paddock 24/7 1600sq, so nice & spacious for one pony
Can't wait! Can't wait!! |
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| Clarissa |
I remember when you had just put him there & how thrilled you were about all that green fertilized grass. There was a thread about grass quality that we posted to then you & I had a short series of pm's about the quality of the grass at his new digs & his feet problems. I'm just glad you have been able to find somewhere more suitable Bundy. I'm sure Sante will appreciate it too & hopefully become sound again for you. I hope though, that he will still have company because a horse put on it's own after companiable company can get very depressed, particularly if it prefers to have another horse do the leading. |
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| thebundychick |
Yes indeed, how far we've come hey! He moves next Saturday. very very excited! While he has an individual paddock, he won't be alone Lots of other ponies on surrounding fences
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| Chablis |
Well done.
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| thebundychick |
Well, there is good and bad news in this update.
The good news is - there is an improvement. The bad news is - had it not been for me letting him go so long, it would have been a BIGGER improvement than it is. I tried to book him for a reshoeing a fortnight ago, but owing to the fact I moved him closer to my home, my farrier isn't out there as often, and long story short, 5 weeks became 8 weeks. That'll teach me to procrastinate :/
Bit angry at myself - but then I look at his "good" foot, and all is not lost So -- onward.. My poor bloody farrier was shoeing Sante by torchlight at 8pm at night. It was a first for Sante, but actually something that John does a lot. He'd been shoeing for 14 hours when he got to Sante, and still had two more horses to do. (popular much )
HE IS NOT STANDING SQUARE, SO ONLY LOOK AT THE HOOF
Front right - the "bad" foot *sigh* 
And the good news: Front Left - Absolutely massive improvement, I am so so so so thrilled. 
http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hp...17338_6708446_7880243_n.jpg[/img] Typical stance: this is what I'm dealing with. There is no point asking Sante to "stand squre" for photos, as -- this is typically what he looks like. Totaly uncoordinated 
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| RickB. |
Where is the improvement? | ||||||||
| ForgeNHammer |
Ditto. Not only do the shoe not even close to fit but, it is an extremely sloppy job...There is a reason that neat tidy clinches and finish is desireable and its not just about pretty. |
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| thebundychick |
Marked up picture showing what I think is a very obvious improvement
Guys, I've tried EVERYTHING for the last 4 years. He did 18 months in rim shoes, two years barefoot, and now we're trying Cytek. As I said - if they've invented it - I've tried to put it on or in his feet. At the end of the day - the above photo is the closest I've ever got to having a normal foot. The shadow of a crack that you see running up towards the coronet, is litterally as deep as the width of my thumbnail. Just to put things in perspective - I'm not sitting here with a smug smile on my face, or beating my own drum, or any of that shit. I'm still nervous as hell! We've still got SUCH a long way to go. We are no where near out of the woods. Not by a long shot. I could arrive at his paddock today - and the cracks have run all the way back up to the coronet on his good foot, and that leaves me with absolutely no frigging idea what I'm supposed to do now. But for the time being, I'll take it. I couldn't care if the shoes were purple, had 12 nail holes, and were moulded with the phrase "Thoroughbreds are defective" on the bottom - If it means I can keep taking pictures like the above, then dammit, I'll use it. I just don't care that it doesn't look "pretty" I don't care that my farrier is still shoeing through some obviously weak or shelly wall (the last remaining few centimetres of "my trim") and that the cinches look a bit off. I don't care, as long as they hold. Owing to the fact that we were shoing at 8pm at night, i couldn't get the photos of the actual shoeing / trim, or I would have taken photos to show you how fast those shoes were stuck to his feet. Every single last nail. He was shod because he was well overdue, not because the shoes were loose and falling off. The number of neat and tidy cinches I've experience in the past, that resulted in my horses shoes falling off within a fortnight, makes me question your statement Rick. I'd rather have butt ugly cinches that stay on for 8 weeks vs "pretty" cinches that look good but are completely ineffective any day For the time being, I'm content to "start over" witht he bad foot, and continue holding my breath with the good foot. Just tell me - Is the ONLY gripe you have against these shoes that they appear "illfitted", and that they are unshapable? |
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| Kim Cassidy |
I'm curious if the front left always points the way it does. | ||||||||
| thebundychick |
Yeah Pretty much, pidgeon toed and knock kneed, not so bad these days, but yes, toes point in. The other day, he was standing looki g to the right front feet pointing right, back feet pointing left. It looks freaky, but it's normal for sante :/ if you like, tomorrow I can take a pic of him standing as normal as possible as a reference point | ||||||||
| thebundychick |
older but typical, barefoot in these photos
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| RickB. |
If anything, that crack is no better and seems to me to be worse.
Note the coronary jamming(or conversely the dip in the coronary band at the center of the hoof capsule) at both toe pillars of the right front. Perhaps it is the angle at which the photo was taken, but there is the appearance of either a lateral sidebone or some high ringbone on the lateral right front. The coronary band on the lateral side of the left front is jammed, the right hind coronary band is jammed at the medial toe, the finish is rough and leaves the wall susceptible to damage, the clinches are not even up to the standards of what I see on many Amish horses, eight nailing hooves like these is a bad practice and one can only wonder what the feet of the horses that farrier worked on after he left your place look like. IOW, one can only wonder how much better job your horse might have received had he not been so far down/late on the farrier's "to do' list. I commend you for trying to do the best for your horse, but IMNTBCHO, neither you or your horse is receiving the best that the farrier may have to offer. OTOH, if this is indeed an example of the best that the farrier has to offer, you have my condolences.
I believe that it was Nick, not me who first commented on the quality of the clinches. Regardless, A proper, neat and tidy clinch has no less ability to keep an appliance in place than does s bear claw clinch such as is evident on your horse. And, if the shoe is cast, a neat and tidy clinch is much less likely to take hoof with it if the shoe is cast than is the kind of clinch present on your horse. Further, if your farrier would set those nails to exit a bit higher on the wall the wall would have much better integrity, especially if a shoe was cast.
That's not enough? By the way, IMNTBCHO and experience, they don't appear to be ill fitted, they are ill fitted.
One last thought. I see feet that need supplemental frog support. IMNTBCHO, until that occurs, those feet stand little chance of improvement. YMMV. |
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| becdubie |
Bundy, I'm not an expert on feet, but seems like the crack looks better to me. I'm so happy for Santee that you're trying so hard for him, I know people who would have given up and done something different.
If at first you don't succeed.....try, try again. That's what I see you doing here and while maybe some of the feedback is hard to hear, you are real about it and you keep trying. I am with you, hoping that this will be the right fix for santee. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
The crack looks better to me too...but, it keeps cracking and that tells me that the hoof needs more wall support until it can have healthy growth without cracking.
I am wondering about the use of hoof casts or filler putty and hardner in that crack. I think if I wasn't where I had a good farrier and had this problem, I'd try those. Then, I have a question. Is it possible the misalignment of the hoof and bones on that foot are causing the crack? That is a severe case of toe-in on that foot. That can't contact the ground well or be comfortable for the horse. I wonder if it is stressing the toe also. |
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| thebundychick |
Are you referring to the "V" shaped dent that runs around the top of the hoof capsule? I've talked to John about it. And you are correct, it could be a form of ringbone. At the moment, I'm watching and monitoring - He's always had it, I'll grab some photo's for reference, if thats not what your talking about, can you mark up a photo?
You are absolutely right. I'm really sorry about that
Noted.
No, its not enough
Appearances are deceiving, and opinions are varied. This shoe that appears to be illfitted, is giving the painstakingly slow improvement I have been looking for. I think it would be fair to say that you need to take into consideration the function of the shoe, as well as your defenition of "fitting" If you say that a shoe that overhangs the wall slightly is illfitting - then to you - yes the shoe is illfitting. Perhaps in rim shoes that is of critical importance because there is only so much shoe, and hoof, and you a smaller margin to work with in order to support the hoof properly. But the function of the Cytek is different. It is a sole plate, a Nike air pump sole support sneaker if you will - it is supposed to support the entire foot as a unit - and distribute weight as evenly as possible. It cradles the hoof. "Ill fitting" doesn't mean "non functional" because the weight is being evenly distributed over the foot, the fact that sometimes it "pokes out a bit" doesn't affect the performance of the foot. Re the backwards step in the right foot 
We've had worse backwards steps This foot has always been worse. Always. ITs been the first to "breakdown" after a "breakthrough", he favours this foot, I'm no surprised. But If i can at least get the other one "fixed" then I can concentrate solely on this foot, and I would feel fabulous, knowing that I've at least halved the problem. Even if this foot continues to go backwards (GOD forbid) and the other one continues to improve, I'll take it, and then put all my energy into fixing this one. Maybe I'll have to cast my net wider - stop looking at the "feet" as such, and see if I can do any exercises with him that cause him to use his body differently, more evenly to assist with the feet?
ITs difficult with Sante - he's not "normal". |
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| thebundychick |
I considered the use of hoof casts, at the time decided against it because i was afraid of getting infection in the foot and the hoof casts not letting it out. Its pouring down rain here - I'm hoping to get out later on and take a few photo's of him for reference to show you the difference in the toe-in, but yes. I firmly beleive the toe-in (and other injuries) is affecting our progress. I beleive thats what i'm trying to fix & fighting against. I know I can't "fix" the bones. The time for that is way way way past. My Chiropractor told me years ago, he'll always be toed in. These are the injuries / abnormalities that I know about: Pigeon toed Back right hind is not even under the bone Evidence of torn shoulder muscle in right fore (massage therapist can feel scar and scar tissue) Evidence of torn semitendinosus muscle in right hind - ditto above (has a constant slipping weakness in his hind, like as though he gets surprised by a nerve pain or something, and his leg gives out) Evidence of sever trauma to wither probably caused by ill-fitting saddle (see picture below - the white marks are on both sides of the wither) And then theres this - I don't know how it affects him, but all the Chiropractic treatments and Massage have never done anything to lessen it. (Vertebrae of lower lumber are "lumpy" as if he's had some sort of injury to his spine?) 
I beleive all of this contributes to Sante's feet. He compensates for weakness in muscles and old injuries, he's toed in -so right there, he's already behind the eight ball. Getting him short in the toe, has done WONDERS for all of the above. He doesn't "paddle" anywhere near as much with his front feet. - Originally i couldn't run next to him when he was trotting for fear of being hit by one of his feet. His trotting action is nearly normal! He doesn't slip as much in the hind which is a releif, and just in general, he feels like he moves better. Riding him is a lot more comfortable. So I'm moving in the right direction .. its just that we're taking the scenic route 
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| RickB. |
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| appellativo |
I almost hate to reply to this thread but I can't help myself.
Let me say up front that I am not familiar with the cytek other than google searches, Rick, nor am I arguing what you are saying about what you see in this particular case. What I want to ask you about is this: I would think that any shoe that has a larger surface coverage would help distribute the weight across the foot, as compared to a typical rim shoe? Keeping in mind I am not a farrier so any supporting/why information you can spell out is great. If you choose to specifically pick apart the Cytek, please give supporting information why you think it is worthless. And if you still have energy, could you share what you would do with this particular foot (if any different than what you would do on a more typical horse that does not have the cracking and conformation issues that Sante has)? I would like to understand more the WHY behind where your comments are coming from (definitely for understanding's sake, not for arguing's sake, just to spell out my intentions)
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| RickB. |
First, lets get our terminology on the same page. What you and some others refer to as a 'rim shoe' is actually a 'perimeter fit' shoe. A rim shoe has been forged and fullered with a crease that goes from heel to heel. Since perimeter fit shoes come in many different stock dimensions (width and thickness) or can be forged from flat bar stock of different dimensions, the shoe can be tailored to the needs of the individual; horse and even, the individual hoof. The larger surface area is not always a boon to the horse. The job of the sole is primarily protection and the job of the wall is primarily support. The wider the web of the shoe the more it keeps the hoof on top of the surface on which it is placed. That can be a good thing, but not always and the Cytek shoe is excessive. Additionally, by keeping the sole surface out of any direct contact with the ground, the shoe creates a situation that encourages the sole to not adapt to its environment.
Since this discussion is about Cytek.......... It is a heavy cast shoe that cannot be shaped or modified according to the needs of the individual horse and/or hoof. Nail hole placement cannot be changed/altered as needed. In the literature from the "Official Cytek " website http://www.cytekhorse.com/ there are claims made that are either incorrect(ie: the hoof flight animation), misleading( ie: photos of horse posture) or pure Junk Science (ie: "FAVORS THE REDUCTION OF STRESS IN OTHER LIGAMENTS AND STRUCTURES IN THE DISTAL LIMB |ALLEVIATES BONE AND MUSCLE LESIONS |IMPROVES FORWARD THRUST IN LOCOMOTION PROVIDES COMPLETE SUPPORT FOR THE SOLE OF THE HOOF AND THE HOOF BONE |IS IDENTICAL IN THE FRONT AND HIND LEG GIVEN THAT THE SAHPE OF THE HOOF BONE ITSELF IS IDENTICAL IN THE FRONT AND HIND LIMB" I have under lined one of the most glaring, if not the most glaring, example of the lack of knowledge presented by the purveyors of this 'boat anchor'. The other claims made in the above reference are unsubstantiated hucksterism.
Sure. For the record, with hoof in hand, my protocol might change. However, based only on the photos and information provided, I would, using the live sole plane as a guide, trim and balance the hoof(I here note for the record that the Cytek trim [only somewhat]mimics the concepts and protocols employed by those who use the Natural Balance protocols for mapping the hoof using various 'landmarks'). I would, from the dorsal side, remove as much wall distortion as possible/practical/pragmatic. I would build a deep seated, rocker toed, quarter clipped shoe(and quite possibly in a bar shoe configuration). I would provide supplemental frog support as needed/necessary. Once the shoe was amended to the hoof, I would, using a Dremel tool and various bits, completely debride the crack along its entire length. I would sculpt the sides of the wall on either side of the crack such that they formed a shallow "U" shape to allow for easier cleaning and less chance of debris retention. In order to further stabilize the area I would use an adjustable band that spannned the crack and was attached from approximately the medial toe pillar to the lateral toe pillar. Alternatively, after installing a drain, I would lace the crack and apply a polymer patch. Another approach I would consider would be to use a clipped open toe, heartbar-eggbar shoe aka; the "W" shoe and proceed with the crack remediation as above. Hope that helps.
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| appellativo |
Thank you! (I don't get thread reply notifications despite all my troubleshooting so sorry about the delayed response.) | ||||||||
| JackPNH |
Bundychick, I have read all of this thread and commend you on trying to do the very best for your horse and there are alway going to be a huge variety of opinions when it comes to hooves, let alone any other topic relating to horses. Unfortunately, or fortunately, I have to agree with Rick B and forgenhammer. The cytek theory is a load of bunk, for lots of reasons. The fact that the shoe can't be shaped means only one thing, the hoof has to be fitted to shoe. Any farrier with knowledge knows that you have to balance the hoof to the horse and then shape the shoe to fit the hoof, not vice versa. The fact that cytek only comes in two sizes is concerning, to say the least. The idea of constant sole pressure is concerning in itself.
I know there are those that are against shoeing of any kind, and they are entitled to their opinion, but I can show you or anybody else horses of mine that are ridden in hard rocky country for up to 8 hours per day that have healthy strong hooves and all are shod. Jack, my favourite horse has a sligh case of high/low syndrome and it has taken me a long time to get a hoof that is healthy, strong and reliable, I tried many options with him too. You stated in one post that you come to visit friends in Merriwa, my wife and I live on a property near Merriwa and if you are up this way and would like I would be only too happy to have a look at Sante and offer you some free advice and discuss different options with, any chance to chat with another PNHer is always good. Don't get disheartened or offended that people have different opinions about what you are doing, at least you are doing. regards Steve |
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| thebundychick |
Hi Steve!! I was in Merriwa at the start of may for team penning! (team penning was in scone - but I stayed in Merriwa) Where abouts in Merriwa are you - I'm heading down that way June longweekend - team penning again - and bringing back my new mare. I don't get offended that people have different opinions - I guess I just get disheartened when I'm trying so hard to stay positive about something - and people feel the need to criticize my farriers cinching method? I mean - honestly. I've spoken to that many farriers - who criticize his trim for being to short - and tell me I need to brace the foot and screw it together. I have been berated by former agistment managers, and had every Tom, Dick and Harry tell me what they think I should do (Please note that comment DOES NOT refer to comments / suggestions made on this forum - as I asked for and invited advice / criticism). I have learnt to have very broad shoulders
All that aside. Sante has been standing in very deep mud for three weeks. He sucked a shoe off. I didn't realize it was gone until we were half way down the road and his stride sounded wrong (I was still on the ground at this stage). He wasn't remotely lame or sore - so we went out for our ride. The downside to the mud is the fact that his feet turned to mush and they look shit. Will get more photos tomorrow. But I remember saying somewhere one step forward, two back. I've had my cry, thrown my tantrum - picked myself up and am soldiering on. I just keep telling myself they look better than what they did ad nauseum. I know others will disagree, and that is fine - but I just know that overall they look better. He moves better, he's happier in himself - There is no flared growth now. The cracks don't flare anymore. So I have solved one problem - However I am putting serious thought into Ricks suggestion of resecting the feet. As I said - I've thought about it before and the fear of possible complications / associated issues has always scared me off. But I did say that this was a learning process, and I was working through the possibilities / solutions - one at a time. I'm not one of these people that tries something like this for a month - decides it hasn't given the miracle cure i was expecting and goes onto something else without giving it a fair look in. - That said - had Sante pulled up lame, thrown shoes, or given me ANY sign that the shoes were causing him pain - I would have ripped them off myself with a screwdriver! For the time being. I will continue to keep trying. I might even get his feet x-rayed. Just a side note to everyone : Sante has been in his new sloped paddock for three months. For the last 4 weeks he's had the Calsorb calcium block in his lean-to shelter. I have noticed some really awesome changes in him - He's hardly "slipping" in the hind quarters. Its only come about in the last fortnight - but I rode him on Sunday, and all the places that he would normally "slip out" from under me came and went, and he never "fell out". I noticed a reduction when i started shoeing him - but it was about a 50% reduction. I'm thinking that the calcium block the sloped paddock (meaning he has to use his butt) the Masterson method body work I've been doing on him The Shoes Are all working together - and holy crap - He might actually be "slip free" for good. |
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| JackPNH |
we live down Idaville rd, which is 10 ks west of town and then another 30 Ks further on. If you would like to meet up we will be in town sometime over the weekend in june, where abouts do you stay when you are here
Steve |
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| Clarissa |
Gosh Steve, that's very generous of you.
I certainly hope you & Bundy manage to hook up. 
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| Chablis |
Ditto to what Clarissa said!
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| thebundychick |
We were hopefully going to meet up when i went to Merriwa for team penning & to bring Rebel home.
But it wasn't meant to be - my friend had to work, and as it happened, it was the same weekend I found Sante with the virus. Had i gone to Merriwa, Sante probably wouldn't be alive. Isnt' it amazing how things work out? The last month has seen nearly 400mm of rain fall in our area. Sante was nearly dog paddling there for a while. His paddock is quite muddy, I am thrilled to say he hasn't lost a shoe - and if you saw his paddock - that is quite an acheivement. The cracks haven't opened up, but they have travelled. I'm not surprised, or upset. He's been standing in slush for weeks, Considering i think i came within 6 hours of losing him, I'm in a place right now where i don't care about his feet - I just need to get my horse back. While technically he is "healthy" he has lost a lot of lean muscle and needs serious building up, which i will begin to do when the greasy heel subsides. The viral infection he contracted manifested in his right leg, which broke out in vasculitis and greasy heel. He let is quite literally one big scab from coronet to just above the knee. It hurts him, he's a bit depressed, and every time he sees me he knows i'm going to annoy him by fussing over his leg. There isn't much i can do about that, except tell him i love him, give him a pat, and then go on washing & treating his leg. John came out yesterday to do Rebel's feet, and we both agreed that Sante doesn't need doing (the cold weather has basically halted his hoof growth), and to change them, just because it was time, wasn't fair to him, when i couldn't guarantee he would be able to stand there and let John do his feet. I'll update again when his feet get done again - but my battle has changed for the time being
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| thebundychick |
So, its been 14 weeks since Sante's feet were last done, and I thought they were starting to look like they needed doing, and got John out.
we have had the wettest winter season on record for as long as I can remember. I don't remember there being this much water. Basically... the week after i got Sante's feet done (last time) the rain started... and it just hasn't stopped. At worst - their feed buckets were floating in their paddocks, and they had ripped up the paddock so much that I had to move them, because it was nothing but mud. As posted on another thread, Sante has been seriously ill, and when i got John out 6 weeks ago to do my new Mare, we decided NOT to do Sante - because his leg was still raw, and he didn't *really* need doing. Anway.. that was ages ago - long story short, the shoes stayed on in the slickest most boggiest quagmire of conditions you can imagine. When John took them off, they were stuck *fast* In terms of Seedy toe / wall cracks - we aren't going too bad. The rain hasn't helped.. Pffft, who am I kidding, the rain really screwed things up.. But what can you do? The virus and vasculitis Sante got in the leg has deformed the hoof growth in that foot, for lack of a better description, its acted as a barrier between the crack and new growth - will be interesting to see how that pans out in coming week. But the biggest most awesome news? Concavity.
Yes. Real, true bonafide Concavity. There just aren't words I've read about it - in Pete Ramey's & Jaime Jacksons books, about how, with the correct trimming, you can infact get concavity in your horses feet. I gave up on the dream after two years of barefoot. Sure, I'd got a MAJOR improvement in Snotty's feet, and sure, they had gone from 100% flat foot (the kind that, when you put a rast over the bottom of the foot, you don't see any daylight between the rasp & sole) to, slightly flatfoot (there was a little clearance under the rasp).
And then there is is the Kind that Sante is displaying
John laughed at me, because I kind gaped at him when I saw the foot, looked like a fish out of water, it was such a shock. We had never discussed concavity. It was never something that John mentioned would improve, I always cared more about the cracks, I never really mentioned concavity, so - to see the soles of Sante's feet actually bought me to tears. I took a whole stack of photos, of when we'd taken shoes off, cleaned out, and then trimmed different feet, I tried to get good shots of the concavity, but they just haven't come out right. I'll post the better ones anyway - They will show the build up of "silt" under the foot, and what it looks like when you take a shoe off after so long. but again guys - 14 weeks, torrential rain for most of it, paddocks of slush. No thrush, no smell. I'm really impressed. |
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| misstux |
Great news! It's about time; you've worked so hard to do right by your guy
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| Clarissa |
Isn't it amazing how little their feet have grown this year! Saying his shes were on 14wks would just blow many people's minds, but I'll bet they only looked like they'd been on for 8wks if that.
I'm glad that inflamation put a stop to that crack. He should end up with 2 really even paired front feet soon! Really impressed about gaining some concavity too. It will surely help.
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| thebundychick |
I can't get over it Clarissa, its like the growth just stopped! And you're right - they only looked like they were out to 8 weeks AND still stuck fast.
I'm not getting too excited about the new growth yet - just gonna play it by ear and see what comes of it
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| Mandy'sMarty |
Horses generally grow concavity when the ground is soft. It improves their traction in the soft ground. You've just had the wettest winter season you can remember. Wet season makes soft ground.
Horses focus their energy on growing dense winter coats during the winter season when the daylight hours are the shortest. They begin focusing more energy on growing hooves instead of winter coats at the spring equinox when the spring days become equal to the winter days in length. The last 14 weeks have been generally your winter season. The time when your horses are basically focusing their energy on growing winter coats instead of hooves. Sounds like your horse is doing what comes naturally. That's a good thing. |
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| RickB. |
If that was true, then the 'cure' for every flat soled horse would simply be to keep them on soft ground. Demonstrably, gaining concavity in an otherwise flat sole, is not so simple if even, possible. It would also stand to reason that the converse would be true. ie: a horse with sole concavity living on hard ground should become flat soled. As can be readily demonstrated, this is not the case, all other factors being equal. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I have to agree with Rick. I have very hard ground all summer...hard pack clay. Even most of the winter it's hard and frozen. Generally my horses (all except one) grow very good hoof with good, healthy soles. They are probably more healthy in the winter when they get some hydration, but all are pretty hard in the summer. | ||||||||
| Mandy'sMarty |
Perhaps I should have qualified my comment by limiting that as an observation to barefoot horses living in the rain forest of the southeastern United States. And perhaps I should have qualified the soft ground as being wet, which is the factor contributing to it being soft.
I have observed this phenomenon in my mare's feet for as long as she has been barefoot. And yes, Rick, I have observed the converse, particularly this summer. Generally more concavity during the wet months of winter and flatter soles during the summer with hard-packed ground. Actually, her soles appear flatter because of the additional sole material that grows to protect and cushion against the hard ground. This is not just my opinion. I recently asked Todd Jaynes about this phenomenon as he was trimming Mandy. He agreed as he has seen this among the many horses he regularly trims. It was Todd who explained to me about the appearance of the flatter sole being attributed to the additional sole material responding to the harder ground. I assume that most, if not all, of his clients are barefoot. He has clients throughout the southeast US. Todd has personal knowledge of many more horses than I do. He is AHA certified, Field Instructor & Public Education Clinician for the Equine Sciences Academy, Field Instructor for the United Kingdom Natural Hoof Care Practitioners, and recent presenter at The Functional Hoof Australian Conference in Melbourne last February. Of course, Rick, as with any observations of horses, it is entirely possible that Todd and I have somehow been observing only horses that are the exception to the rule that "can be readily demonstrated...all other factors being equal". Or perhaps it just depends on the peculiar factors that are common to the barefoot horses that Todd trims. |
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| RickB. |
Apples and oranges. You said it yourself --
That additional sole does not equate to a flatter sole, just more retained sole. If the sole was truly flattening due to hard ground, then there would not be a surfeit of sole, rather there would be an actual loss of concavity/flattening of the arch of the sole. Strip out that excess retained sole and what do you find? I'll bet a dollar against a donu7t hole you'll find the same concavity that has always existed. And the converse would also be true. ie: due to the soft ground, the functional sole would go from a flat non-arched configuration to an arched/domed configuration. That phenomenon has never been observed or recorded. And remember, appearances can be deceiving...... So, until/unless you can provide radiographic evidence of this phenomenon, in either/both directions, with the same horse(s) you'll perhaps understand my skepticism.
Well that and five bucks will get him a cup of coffee at Starbucks.
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| Mandy'sMarty |
Rick, You are correct. I re-read what I had written and it does appear to confuse rather than clarify what I had meant to say.
Simply stated, I have observed the horse's bare foot to appear more concave on wet, soft ground and much less concave on hard, dry ground. In my part of the world, that translates to a bare foot with good concavity in winter and a bare foot that appears almost flat in summer. (Other locales may have hard, frozen ground in winter and softer ground in summer.) Same horse, same pasture, but different seasons creating different footing. Hard ground, sole fills in. Soft ground, sole exfoliates. Both versions are healthy hooves responding to their environment. I choose not to disturb the sole. But I am sure that, during my summer, there is retained sole filling in the concavity so that the soles appear flatter than the actual domed arch of the foot's structure. I did not intend to suggest that in this particular phenomenon, the internal structure of the foot moved relative to the hoof capsule, and thus caused a change in the domed arch of the sole. I really think that you and I are in agreement. Thanks for calling me on that one. |
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| thebundychick |
Interesting points on both sides.
I can't really say whether its the wet that has caused this - I mean - he's been barefoot for two years before this, and gone through a fair bit of wet weather in that time, and I've never really picked a difference in his soles - or a difference that I could attribute to the conditions. But this difference is profound. Its been a year since I embarked on this experiment, and Sante's soles just look amazing. would love some photography tips though, because I can't catch a break in getting decent photos! |
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| thebundychick |
Front right foot
Front left foot 
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| thebundychick |
Sante was reshod yesterday, its been about 8 weeks I think.
He was very long, very flared, and in dire need of a reshoe. Can I just say:
I'll get more photo's towards the end of the week, i took a photo's today, but the shadows are all wrong, and basically - you can't see a thing. Ha! Story of my life. I'm telling myself over & over again, "Don't get your hopes up, play it cool" But, I AM happy with how things are going. Basically, we have 50/50 good growith / split growth. considering the rain we had previously, I am actually surprised that his feet have rebounded to the extent they have. The MAJOR MAJOR thing that has changed? - I am controlling his feed. Every single mouthful he gets. I have changed his feed from a very sweet feed, which I reluctantly put him on when he was really sick and desperately needed to gain weight, and took him back to a "plain" feed, that is, nothing processed, I hand make each feed, he gets no sugar except for the lucern hay i throw him, and even then its fairly sun dried, so I'm not to concerned about it. But basically, I think the feed is really helping the feet. When i post photos, you will notice growth rings, and that pretty well explains it. But, in a nutshell, we are heading in the right direction.
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