Enslaved

appellativo · Enslaved

I don't necessarily embrace all the thoughts in this article but it sure does make one think.....

Like last night when I was with my horse, reading while she ate her hay and grooming her she was clearly enjoying herself. I went and got the saddle....I didn't put it on right away, I hung it on the rail and continued to groom her. She went to the saddle and sniffed it. She then 'pointed to her girth area with her nose. It was very deliberate, she was not scratching an itch and was not telling me to scratch an itch. I tried to understand but didnt. She pointed again. I continued to groom.

Then I took the saddle down and brushed the underside of the pad. When I did this (and it became clear I was getting ready to saddle up....

...she went into the corner of the stall facing away from me with a sour look on her face. I went to cinch her up (it was the treeless saddle) and she pretended to nip me. Over and over, I pretended to cinch the saddle, touching her, loosening the buckles ( that were already loose) and she pretended to nip me over and over. Sometimes when I was not anywhere near the cinch, she pretended to nip, to show her displeasure. I finally just cinched up and took her to the round corral to ride. She was nervous of the boogeymen in the shadows (it was night and I had the lights on). I did all I could to keep her focus on me but she never truly relaxed.

So then I come home to read this article. Sometimes I feel bad for the things I make my horse do when she clearly does not want to.

http://naturalhorseworld.com/blog/new-article/

Erin

bit

Interesting. I was just reading the smart pac catalog and it said that horses with ulcers or tummy issues just may be feeling a bit o pain in the girth area, which is why the are cinchy. She may have simply wanted time to digest her meal before you rode her.
I've quit asking my horses to ride if they tell me "no". I'll have three riding horses here soon, so chances are one of them will be up for a stroll. Gunner most always is. Eclipse, not so much. I know what you mean. Especially after the whr's, I'm painfully aware of their opinion. Don't beat yourself up. Next time, listen. Like I said, she might have just wanted some time to relax after eating. Might have then been into some liberty dancing, or playing with obstacles, or a trail walk on line. It's all time with your horse.
lol, I like to think of it as a date, which I know is used a lot. Dates don't have to include sex every time. Dinner and a movie, stroll on the beach holding hands, mean game of tag, cuddling on the couch, it's all good. Sometimes cuddling on the couch can lead to something else.

jackspark

This past weekend we had a couple of hundred geese visiting our wheat field. I spent a large part of Saturday morning creeping close to them. I wanted to see just how close they would let me get........ how cool was that for me! After a quite a long time, I made it to about 25 yards and remained spending UDT for another 30min. As I was starting to make my way even closer this thought came to me "Why do you need to use them to amuse yourself?" Eventually they will become too fearful and feel the need to take up, (a big task for that many) and leave their buffet, all because YOU want to see just how close they will let you get. Wow, is that one sided or what? I felt horrible and backed away quietly........... and watched them off and on for the rest of the weekend. They left Sunday afternoon and I really hated to see them go. It has been just the past year that I have been inclined to look at the situation from "their" perspective. Very nice place to be

I thank this forum for the enlightenment that has taken place in my life, this past year. XXXOOO You know who you are

imagele

PasoBaby_CarolU

Erin, I tried to touch on this in the Make vs Try threads. We also discussed this in the "can't" vs. "won't" thread. I think we all have to decide where we draw this line with our horses, and I don't think there is a right answer for every horse every time. Some horses will not do anything if we let them decide. Other horses are very willing and when they tell us "no" there is a good reason for it.

It is particularly hard when we get conflicting information from so many teachers. Some teach to totally listen to the horse, and others might teach to understand the horse, but no way do you let a horse make a decision.

Situations like this are exactly why I started the two threads. Not that I have the perfect answer, because it varies, but because I think we all need to think about situations like you had and decide for ourselves how to handle it. I can tell you most people would have walloped her on the rump for showing "disrespect" and continued to do so until she faced them. So, the horse may face them out of fear, but is that really "respect for a good leader?" No

I think whenever horses do things like this, they are also communicating with us. It's up to us to figure out what the problem is and work with it. My mare Zar does this most of the time. I would never, ever dream of hitting her. She is stressed over what I'll have her do, and it's kind of funny, because once the ride or exercise is over, she hangs around and pals around, stress free. She was punished many years ago for doing something wrong in a training session, and that memory stays with her always.

I'm not sure what your answer is. Perhaps go back to the "make our idea their idea" and see how that works. Remember the thread about making each session FUN for the horse. That is what I do very well with all of mine who like to play a little. Make it fun, lots of rewards and not just the cookie kind, but good scratches, lots of smiles and positive vibes. This way they look forward to the next session.

bit

If we don't listen to them, why in the world would they listen to us? After a while, they are just going to quit trying to tell us anything. I think right after that, you get anger, or shut down. Just like any abused soul. I know about this, personally.
Lucky for us, most horses are pretty forgiving souls. For some of them, the damage runs so deep, they are never going to be the horse they would have been, if only. I never want to take that from a horse. Who he could have been. It's why Hawk and Gunner are going up to work with Kip Fladland. Expensive, but he's going to be able to give them both the best that a horse can get. For Hawk, the best beginning. For Gunner, the best opportunity for confidence and movement under saddle.
It's why I spend so much time trying to get it better, riding, ground work, and relationship. The more I try, the more they try. The more I listen, the more they listen. If the equine denist I use can make a very unpleasant experience, bliss for my horses, I can certainly make this something I strive for.

appellativo

Yes carol, some would have whacked their horse for showing disrespect. In my case, I know my horse, and I know that she could very well have put her teeth on me. I believe she didn't because she could perceive that I knew something was wrong and was trying to be gentle with her and figure out what she was trying to tell me.

She distinctly pointed to her girth area. Today I read an article that for our situation, had little red flags all over it matching our situation. (here's the article)

http://www.todayshorse.com/Articles/GirthPain.htm

So, I think I am going to contact a chiropractor and have some work done on her. I've tried three different saddles, different girths and girth materials (but I haven't tried the anatomical girth yet, which I will soon), and I just think there is something about being girthed up for her that is painful. I know she's not the most energetic horse that loves to be ridden, but she is generally pretty willing. I truly believe that there is a discomfort/pain issue and I'm trying to get to the bottom of it.

anyways, I'm on the fence too about making a horse do what you want. What gives us the right, really? Who the hell are we? Just because we can dominate a horse, does that give us the right?

Well, I think that for now, in the evolution of mankind, it is enough to be trying to give the horse the best life he can have, and to improve ourselves enough in our interactions with them so that they are willing to do for us. Maybe one day we will all be running around in flowing robes, living in perfect communion and harmony with nature and be able to whistle to our horses and have them come flying to us from across the plain to carry us willingly and lovingly in bliss and joy, but well.....that's not today LOL

bit

Kelsey said something the other night about girthing being uncomfortable for some mares because of where their female parts are in the body. I also read an article in the latest smart pac mail out that horses can balk at girthing because of ulcers. Feediing only twice a day, when a horse was meant to graze all day, will really mess with a horses digestion. They put out a digestive enzyme all the time, and if there is no food in their tummys, it causes ulcers. It may not be chiro, it may be physical. If you call smart pac, they can send mailer out to you. Good article about diet.

appellativo

Hey Deb. In this case I don't think its ulcers. Where I board there is pasture and hay out for most of the day, then they are fed again in the evening and that lasts them a few hours. So there might be literally three or four hours in a 24 hour period where they don't have food in front of them. Thanks though. I'm fishing around for a reputable chiropractor in my area...going to make an appointment.

jackspark

Hope that solves your problem, Erin. I have a gelding that is just that way........ I am certain that it is our problem.

No pain involved here. He just isn't interested in MY way of going.

Clarissa

Erin, just a couple of things to think about re the treeless saddle. Am I right in remembering that you settles on a barefoot? In any case do you have the standard ergonomically designed elasticized leather girth? If so just check that the buckles & the widest part of the girth are not right behind her elbow. That wide part that accommodates the buckles should be above the elbow because being so wide it can interfere with the soft flesh behind the elbow with each step on a horse where the girth sits right in the space under the elbow. Most horses are like that, only really fit & hard worked horses have a long underline where the girth sits way apart from the front legs movement like a racehorse.

The next thing to look at is the shape of her back. I saw a photo of her from some time back & she seemed to have a bit of a sway back. I think a deep back causes the rider's weight to be concentrated over a lesser number of vertebrae than if a treed saddle was used. I’m sure I am having this problem with Sonny & my barefoot treeless. After a ride he seems to be sore over 3 vertebrae & always the same 3 & he tells me so. Also the sweat pattern shows that my weight is concentrated in a smaller area than if I used my stock saddle. A treed saddle would spread the rider’s weight over a greater number of vertebrae plus a wider spread of muscle on either side. It’s just that the down sides of the treed saddle outweigh the good points in favour of a treeless as many of us have discovered.

Now regarding enslaving our horses. I have been known to say & admit to it myself. Yes as Carol said in the ‘make V try’ thread & somewhere else too that usually in the end it’s a case of you WILL do what I want no matter how nicely I ask. I have decided to go for a ride & pretty much that is what is gonna happen……. Generally…… even for we NH’ers.

The way I see it we have to weigh up the pro’s & con’s of our husbandry & ethics. I think I give my horses a good life……far more so than most of those I know. I always aspire to doing better to make things more natural for them as best I can within my means. In time they will have a greater freedom such as they have had in the past. ATM they live in a degree of luxury, getting enough nutrition to keep them healthy, kept free of insects & disease, enough room so that they often go weeks without visiting certain parts of their range, rarely having to submit to carrying weight or doing anything they don't want to do, being played with doing stuff they prefer in exchange for food rewards. What more could a modern day horse ask for?

The last paragraph in the article tells us to try as hard as we can to change opinions & beliefs. I am happy, nay compelled, to give up a friendship if that person doesn’t care for their horses at least as well as I do. I have just done this very thing where a lady who became a friend & who lives handy to me here is just not capable of understanding the extent of her cruelty to her horses with respect to their hoof trim despite all my efforts. I know I am still in major learning phase myself in this area but from what I already know, she is doing completely the wrong thing & all because she likes the look of a certain externally shaped hoof. I cannot abide this any longer, it makes me cry every time I see her poor mare seemingly crying in pain, so I have had to quit knowing her. I am prepared to go to that extent after a year of trying to get her to see reason or even investigate alternatives. I walk away from this friendship happy in the knowledge that I tried my best. She is a hard nut to crack. When her horse is totally lame & she is forced to get a vet the truth will come out.

I definitely believe bits & steel shoes should be optional in all equine sport. I also think that if a horse has it’s mouth tied shut the rider should be told to remove the constricture. If the horse can’t work without it, too bad, obviously time to look at alternative training methods. Same goes for horses that gag or open their mouths when the bit is operated (like in the photo of the work/stock horse in the article). Those should be things that cause disqualification or major points deductions.

However we can’t control what happens in private. Also it is very hard to stop the enslavement of equines in the third world. Those animals are required & essential for earning a living & unfortunately the people in those countries don’t view animals with rights & privileges the way we do. Then again they generally don’t view human rights the way we do either so they certainly have a very long way to go yet.

As for the thought of releasing all the horses to the wild, I don’t think that is an option because we have redesigned the horse to such an extent it would be cruel to the horse to let it totally loose on an open range (if such a place existed that would hold all the owned horses of the world). There are more horses in ownership now than ever across the centuries & heyday of the exploration & settlement of most of the world. Of course that’s mostly due to simply being more people now than ever before.

I fully understand where the writer is coming from & I regularly think along similar lines myself but (& here I guess I am being selfish) I would not want to live without my horses.

I have made a decision not to breed anymore foals even though I now have one of the best mares I ever owned & I love breeding & raising foals. Basically I spent 30yrs finding & breeding my ideal riding horse/ broodmare, then having created her, I will never breed from her. She will remain unfulfilled as a broodmare & I’m sure she would have made an excellent mother & role model, created a fantastic foal with excellent manners & natural ability. That can be construed in some sense as cruelty to the natural nature of the horse..... As is gelding..... Where do you draw the line? We can’t have a heap of overfed, overbred, underworked stallions running rampant in the hands of people with no sense of understanding about the ways of the equine.

Learning Natural Horsemanship & horse psychology to make the lives of mine as good as I can, to me is the way to go. Well it placates my inner questions about horse enslavement anyway.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Some good thoughts there Hertha. My horses don't like buckles against the skin, so my girths have to have pads under where the buckles are and Zar has a conniption fit if the buckles don't buckle over the blanket. So, this is something else to think about, there could be a pinch between the top of the girth and the bottom of the saddle. I believe that this happened some time in Zar's past, and that horse has one incredible pain memory. Maybe something like that happened to Sasha and she's trying to tell you Erin.

My own thoughts on where to draw the line are that HORSES NEED LEADERS. They don't need Best Friends. When you are trail riding and come upon something scary, that is not the time to suddenly step forward and say "Do as I SAY!" I think that you've given the horse has no reason to believe you are a worthwhile Leader. You have to be the Leader all the time. A Lead horse is a Lead horse is a Lead horse. I think of it as "benign dictatorship," but the truth is that it is 100% natural horsemanship. If we want to communicate with our horse naturally, we have to do it in a way that horse will understand. Horses understand Leaders and they understand followers. You can't be both to your horse.

So, in Erin's case, I like to give the horse the benefit of a doubt and explore and eliminate all pain possibilities first - Sasha IS telling her it hurts her somehow. Once that is done, we get on with our task - humanely, but as a Leader.

Have you ever heard of any of the clinicians come out and say, "Bucky said "no" this morning so we'll do the clinic without him." ??

As for that article, I remember a quote but have been unable to find it since to quote it properly and attribute it, but it went something like, "In the year 2000 BC man learned how to make iron, and the horse has suffered for it ever since." And yes, many horses are enslaved still. But I do think in NH you create a partnership where you are a Leader, but the dignity of the horse is preserved at all costs. That is the difference.

Hertha, I think most horses would revert to the wild pretty well. What today's mustangs are, are feral domestic horses. They aren't truly "wild."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_horse

But, your point is well taken. We've bred a lot of weaknesses into domestic horses and bred qualities that won't survive in the wild. We also have far more horses then there is left over space for.

appellativo

Sasha is not swaybacked, so much as her topline is not all that well developed. Yes I have the grandeur physio pad (has the extra memory foam in the pad). I don't believe the girth buckles are directly behind the elbow but I will double check that!

I usually ride in my western treed saddle, and she's cinchy with whatever saddle anyways.

I can't recall where, but the source I was reading said that when horses are turned out to the wild, all the refined traits that we bred into them, gradually disappear (over generations) and the horse naturally genetically reverts back to a certain 'basic' form. Survival of the fittest naturally 'breeds out' the weak traits that we breed into them. Glad for that....