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       It's About The Horse Forum Index -> Biomechanics and Purity of Gait
jokersmama

Ever heard of an "elbow pull" training device ?

Meredith Hodges had a very good show on balance, body awareness, and good posture for your equine on RFD and she was using an elbow pull on her equines.

It goes over the poll through the bit rings and between the front legs then hooks to the saddle. It is self correcting, she could even make it so it could slide and give to their pressure more in the beginning if it needed to.

Anyone know where I can get one? Or can I make my own? It looked really simple like just a piece of rope with a snap on each end.

I did a google search and Julie Goodnight sells one but it's leather and 55.00 w/o the DVD. I couldn't find one other than that I even checked e-bay.

If anyone has used one how long are they?
jokersmama

I think this is like it, only I liked her's it was cotton, this one is bungee type material.

http://www.smartpakequine.com/ProductClass.aspx?productClassId=4980
AlythLong

Where does it start before it goes over the poll?

YUK!!!

Size would depend on the size of the horse.

Mechanics and force imo.

Alyth
Niek

falls in GGG* category


*gimmick gadget garbage bin
jokersmama

Julie Goodnight shows how to hook it up.

It's a lunging aid to help build the proper muscles for riding.

I'm struggling with my horses just running around however they want because I was more focused on them going the right direction, not stopping and yielding their hind quarters than having them move in proper form to build muscles for carrying a rider.

I need to strengthen her back muscles, and get her moving in a proper frame before I can ask her to carry me and move like that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBbraxy2i5I

I don't see how it is any different than the side reins other than the poll pressure...

*Edited to add-

Just explaining with words also,

This is from JG's website she explains it better than I could-

"To use the bitting device, you place the middle of the cord over the horse's poll and then run each end through the rings of the bit, between the horse's legs and up to the saddle. Adjust it so that when the horse is standing square and relaxed, there is no pressure on the bit. The pressure will come as the horse walks or trots; his elbow will cause a pull on that side of his mouth.


It is self-correcting meaning that when the horse does the right thing (brings his nose down and in), the pressure goes away. It teaches the horse to drop his head, bring his nose in and round his back when he feels pressure on the bit. Since the horse is coming off of the bit pressure, he is required to hold himself in the frame rather than have something to lean against like with side reins. This requires the horse to bring his hind-end up underneath him and lift his back in order to hold himself in the frame while keeping slack in the reins.


I like this device much better than other bitting devices because it gives an alternating pull on the bit, not pulling on both sides of the bit at the same time, so it keeps the horse very soft and relaxed in the neck and jaw. Also, you can mimic the action of the biting device from the saddle, by using alternating sponge squeezes in time with the horse's front legs. Finally, I like this device because it teaches the horse to give to the slightest rein pressure and to seek out the slack in the rein. I hope this helps"
Niek

In my book its a tie down and nothing more or less.. Sidereins and all the other lunging add-ons tend to fall in that same group. They have no life no feel and imo no added use.

If your looking to have your horse move in a better way id suggest you pick up Karen Rolhf`s stuff.
Niek

jokersmama wrote:


*Edited to add-

Just explaining with words also,

This is from JG's website she explains it better than I could-

"To use the bitting device, you place the middle of the cord over the horse's poll and then run each end through the rings of the bit, between the horse's legs and up to the saddle. Adjust it so that when the horse is standing square and relaxed, there is no pressure on the bit. The pressure will come as the horse walks or trots; his elbow will cause a pull on that side of his mouth.


A pull (First major flaw already) with each stride : Causes seesaw effect.


Quote:
It is self-correcting meaning that when the horse does the right thing (brings his nose down and in), the pressure goes away. It teaches the horse to drop his head, bring his nose in and round his back when he feels pressure on the bit. Since the horse is coming off of the bit pressure, he is required to hold himself in the frame rather than have something to lean against like with side reins. This requires the horse to bring his hind-end up underneath him and lift his back in order to hold himself in the frame while keeping slack in the reins.

You dont want him to bring his nose in constantly in a stretch. IT creates overflex in the stretch and makes it so they will later on struggle to properly open and close the troatlatch/poll. And it only teaches to move away from the bit instead being in hand. A horse that is in hand doesnt lean.

Quote:

I like this device much better than other bitting devices because it gives an alternating pull on the bit, not pulling on both sides of the bit at the same time, so it keeps the horse very soft and relaxed in the neck and jaw. Also, you can mimic the action of the biting device from the saddle, by using alternating sponge squeezes in time with the horse's front legs. Finally, I like this device because it teaches the horse to give to the slightest rein pressure and to seek out the slack in the rein. I hope this helps"

So it pulls and seesaw`s, i cannot see the greatness in that. All i can see that this device does is create a horse that will avoid the bit, it creates fake lightness and a horse that is no longer in hand and wil no longer follow the hand where ever it goes..
karmikacres

Richard Shrake also uses one but he calls it a Rhythm Collector. I have one I can sell you cheap. It's about to go in our garage sale. Have had it for years.

Karen
Leah

YIKES!!!!

Head setting garbage!
jokersmama

So how do you get horses that hollow their back out to arch their neck, reach forward and round their back up with you on the ground?

What other back strengthening exercises are there that can be done from the ground ?

I've watched some of Karen R but haven't seen any ground work stuff yet... and some of Philip K he was lunging with the caveson but that horse already knew what he was doing and hadn't been ruined and using his body wrong from years of NH.

I want to stay natural but need to build muscles. It would only be for a short time to build the muscles and help her with her balance so she is capable of carrying herself and a rider in a proper balanced frame.

Any ideas on how to do it naturally?
cynthia peterson

The things Karen Rolf does in her DVDs are what works. Unfortally, she doesn't give enough details in the book/DVD if you don't really know what she is doing (have done something like that before) Ginger Gaffney has a DVD that has a bit more info.  Basically, you are going to have to have the horse move away from your carrot stick when you point it to whatever is out of place (shoulder, or ribs bending in then out in a bend) Then you get it with just moving your shoulder (not the stick, eventually you want to get away from using the stick all together) You are going to have to do this while starting on a small circle around you ( about the stick length away, test if your horse is safe at this distance),~ get the horse lined up right (no standing in the circle with the horse going around you without you looking) And then, of course, (and most important!) you must have the whole horse calm with the head down. You have already taught the head down, so add that.  The horse must be totally tuned into you. No looking out! No looking at the gate, his buddies, just you. Like a child you are teaching something important to would be. This has to be done small steps at a time . Some horses have to be taught with a sideways move (then more circling effect) at first... neck bent while giving to your feel on the rope (that gives you a bend) a few steps sideways, then forward on a circle.

The device you have shown is what many trainers use. It forces the head down (we are training the head down) from poll pressure. I have seen some talented trainers use them.... mostly badly... but I have seen a few get good results. I did say TALENTED. Talented people can use anything and get good result because they have perfect feel and timing. Then untalented people see it and think it will work...

Frankly, the only use I could think of I would use it is for little children on spoiled, high headed horses. And I would do that to keep the kid from getting a broken nose when that head came up.
cokey

jokersmama wrote:
and some of Philip K he was lunging with the caveson but that horse already knew what he was doing and hadn't been ruined and using his body wrong from years of NH.


Now, see it's not just NH that makes horses use their body "wrong".  Most horses on my yard, which is very "normal" have appallingly wasted  and strung out toplines and razor blade withers, trit trotting along with their HQs in the next county..   Nor is it NH's fault that you maybe got stuck in L1/2 for years and never got to the refinement of asking your horse to use his body correctly...  

Phillipe Karl was probably playing with a stallion too..  They tend to go "correctly" because of hormones

But, echo everyone else.  Sounds like a horrid gadget.  Try to look at KRs stuff, or maybe even Silversand - they're very keen on correct biomechanics from day 1.  Or heck, you could always try good old Hill Therapy    
PasoBaby_CarolU

One of the clinicians at the Arizona Horse Festival used a system where you ride with one set of reins, and use pulley-rings on a second set.  These were hooked to the breast collar and the loop of the reins just rest on the horse's neck.   Depending on how you adjusted it. you gradually brought the horse's head in.    And that's how he rode.  He never 'worked' on collection, he just let the headset device do it.   Total cost was about $5.  The pulley rings are at Home Depot and you attached the ring to the breast collar with short ropes.  You do need to use round, rope reins that are a small enough diameter for your pulleys.  

I will say he had a beautiful performing horse that broke at the poll, was not behind the bit, or stressed in any way that I could see.  

I am still on the fence about using mechanical means to work the horse in collection.  I see both good/bad and understand the arguments on both sides.
Leah

but collection does not have anything to do with a headset?

When the hind end is correct the front end happens.
PasoBaby_CarolU

Leah wrote:
but collection does not have anything to do with a headset?

When the hind end is correct the front end happens.


I'm just repeating what he said, and he had a very beautifully collected horse.   His clinic was part clinic and part performance.   As I recall it was billed as a Dancing Horse act.
Julie

http://www.classicaldressage.co.uk/html/auxiliary_reins.html
jokersmama

Thank you for all the replies and the link!

I like this part of the link too!
http://www.classicaldressage.co.uk/html/the_chambon.html

and especially this part:

Quote:
Well made, and correctly started, youngsters have no need of the Chambon and in an ideal world, where we all had endless time, it wouldn’t be needed on the less than perfect specimens either. However, there are man-made ‘damaged’ horses out there who do benefit from its judicial use. I would much rather someone use this piece of equipment correctly than reach for the gadget of choice for many in the UK - including equine physios - the Pessoa.

It is not a short cut to getting a head set or an outline, but it can help - in the same way that the sliding reins do - to show a horse the way to the ground before a rider gets on his fragile back. There is nothing more damaging to a horse than to hollow his back, drag himself along on the forehand, and not use his hind quarters. This causes the base of the neck to become jammed into the shoulders which means the quarters will not be able to step under the body and the abdominal muscles will not engage to support the spine




After doing mare research, I just don't see how it could be rubbish, it's controlled by the horse there are no human hands to have bad timing or feel if the horse is in a healthy frame and using their body correctly they will not have any pressure.

Same with when they are in cross ties, or tied fast to the hitching post, or a high line even, if they behave and don't pull they don't get any pressure on their poll, those are all artificial training devices also right? They also teach headset while standing tied ...right?

I think it has more to do with the way they use their body than just merely headset. I'm not looking to create a "peanut roller" or anything just get her to lower it a bit to help strengthen her back and move in a correct posture and frame.

If it is set loose enough it will only put pressure on when they are moving in a way that is not healthy biomechanically, thus building the correct muscles to be able to move that way more naturally without the device.

That's how it's going through my head anyway...
AlythLong

So does that mean that some people have a great way of demonstrating and talking bovine fecal matter???!!!!  Alyth
Julie

If a horse has a problem, especially muscular in its back, there are times when using a mechanical aid or the correct type for that situation, for a short period, can be beneficial to show the horse how it can work in a different position. The chambon is used a lot in rehab and physio work for this very reason, not to restrict the horse and bring the head in, but to encourage stretch downwards. The only time the horse feels it is if he puts his head in the air, when it restricts him untilhe drops his head again.

Yes, you can do it naturally, but it takes a lot longer, which may not be beneficial to the horse who needs to get on with stretching his muscles.

Has anyone else ever used a chambon.

Can we keep to positive discussion and exchange of ideas rather than the dismissive tone on this thread, which does not encourage people to ask questions when they need to.
       It's About The Horse Forum Index -> Biomechanics and Purity of Gait
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