Farrier says put shoes on....

whudson · Farrier says put shoes on....

So... Kitt has been ouchy and lame for the last two weeks and I have no idea what to do. Farrier says he is wearing down the inside of his RF due to his conformation. Has been barefoot for two years and has been sound till now. It's funny because it is only recently I felt his feet were starting to look like a barefoot horse should look.

I cried....and made an appointment for Thurday.

I don't know what else to do.

Sorry just venting.

Nashama

Try a Bowen therapist first, and I mean Bowen, not Equine Touch. Get them to look at the abdomen and pectorals in particular. Often missed, often the cause of so many uneven side wall wearings. Expect a minimum of 3 treatments 2 weeks apart. Good luck!

calatar

Any chance he has an abscess? I just find it funny that he has been doing fine for two years and now his conformation is messing up his hooves... Also I would check with a vet before you do anything. Whether he gets shoes or stays bare you want to know why he isn't sound at the moment.

oldmac_donald

Perhaps you were taking too much of of the inside for that particular horse. My girl is the opposite - I have to take the inside branch closer as her hoof wall warps and she locks in the stifles if you don't.

What is the horse doing, landing on the inside and rolling his foot down?

Sometimes the horse does need a little more wall then we are told to leave them with. Maybe your roll was too strong in that area, that would definitely affect it - stronger the roll, the quicker the wear.

Give ForgeNHammer a bell. It would be good to get a farrier's opinion on the hoof.
I had my girl shod to get her off of a corn, so it happens. You could just have one set put on him to give him comfort and let his feet grow, then take them off and re-trim with this in mind, leave him a bit of "hoof leeway" on that side.

Nashama

It could be but have a look at the alignment of his legs. If your farrier has picked it's conformational, has not picked up an abscess and the horse has not done it before now, then I would be looking at his bottom line for a muscle problem or perhaps even his sternum. We see it a lot and nearly always something has affected the pre-pubic area, just behind the ribs.

Is he reluctant to pick his legs up at all and seeming to have trouble holding them up for you? If he is and it's the front legs, feel inside the chest area and see if you can find any heat, ripples or ridges. The muscles should feel smooth. If it's the hind legs start at the girth and do some smooth, firm sweeps right up into his groin and see if he avoids you anywhere you press.

It's easy enough for them to do - we have had a little rain and all of our have been mud skating, so we are getting them all coming up and going 'Excuse me, slave, I am sore, fix it.'

whudson

PasoBaby_CarolU

I think you've gotten some good advice here. I would think abscess too under these circumstances. If you trim all the feet the same, then he should be 'ouchy' on all of them equally. Abscesses don't have to hurt a lot to be there - or the horse can be dead lame. And it doesn't take much to turn into one, an old stone bruise can abscess. Some horses are very stoic and tolerate several abscesses at once. I have one gelding the farrier often found abscesses in, yet he wasn't lame at all. Very stoic fellow.

What you might do is Epson salt soak the hoof once or twice a day and pad it and see what happens. If it is a short sole, it will grow out and the salts will ease his pain. If it's an abscess the salt will act as a poultice and help drain it.

Give it a try. You don't have anything to loose.

Nashama

OK, things are grim for you. You sound like us before we started driving long distances to learn it all ourselves.

From books...

Animal Acupressure: A Working Manual, by Zidonis and Snow from the Tallgrass Institute. Get the DVD as well as the book. Amazing resource and my base text book for acupressure and photonic therapy. It is really easy to understand and apply.

Linda Tellington-Jones (TTeam) books on TTouch. Also easy to understand and apply when all you have is a book.

If you have those and learn from those, they can do so much good. I have heard good things about Jim Masterton but as Glen learned massage elsewhere we don't have those and I don;t recommend anything we have not tried ourselves.

Trimming, perhaps it is worth seeing if you can get Andrew Bowe's DVD out of Australia? www.barefootblacksmith.com.au. Sometimes I get bamboozled by things with hooves (oversupply of information coming in from all directions) and this one is for us mug trimmers. We do have it and I like it. It's easy to understand.

whudson

learningthedance

Nashama

jokersmama

I was looking at your pics again, is it the same horse that is lame and needing shoes that is in the pics on this thread?
http://itsaboutthehorse.myfastforum.org/about2223.html

If so...

I think you just need to get the bars under control and the hoof wall down to the live sole level. I can see in the lateral shot he has all his weight on his bars his wall is not touching the ground at all. Think rock in your shoe...that could cause bruising and even an abscess.

Maybe you could ask the farrier to just trim him for you first (wait a little while longer on the shoes) and get the walls and bars down near the live sole level? Maybe ask him/her to not cut into live sole, but to get the walls and bars down near that level?

Just a thought and what I see from your pics.

whudson

[quote="learningthedance
On your first "vent", and rightfully so, I was faced with a similar problem. What I did, is buy some of my own hay where I was boarding, and hung hay nets in my two boys stalls. When they were stalled for long nights, I would fill the nets. The owner had no problem with it because I did it myself, and paid a few dollars extra for my bails. Not ideal, but better then what they were doing. It sucks boarding, but there are some ways around things. I also hung old empty jugs in their stalls, and filled them with horse chow bits. I cut little holes and they learned to rattle them to make the treats fall out. Kept them busy, and made me feel good. Wasn't too long before I saw Jugs hanging in others stalls as well.

Thankfully, I am no longer boarding, but I do feel your frustration.

On the foot issue, I actually like your idea about letting him be out in pasture with a herd. I am sure it would do him some good, and hopefully, he could make some
quote]

Great idea with re to the hay nets. i will consider this for the winter months.

He is already out with a herd of about 20 horses by day and there is 6 horses that stay out 24/7 during the summer months ( May to November) . He is somewhat out on "pasture" already except the ground is harder and rockier than like a field of grass. The thought I had with re to pasture ( which I don't really want to do) is that there would be softer footing and he wouldn't wear the foot, having said that, it might not be good to put him out with a new herd and have them chasing him around.

whudson

[quote="Nashama] FOr a makeshift poultice boot we use a bit of carpet and duct tape, so we are all on a similar page there. The best abscess poultice I have found is medicinal, active honey, epsom salts and apple cider vinegar, but epsom salts and broad bran works well with warm water. We went to a workshop back in February where they did this. They washed the leg, then soaked it in epsom salts, then put the epsom salts and bran poultice on the hoof for a horse with a fair bit of bruising.[/quote]

Would you mind explaining how the carpet piece would work ? I'm assuming that you would put the fibre part next to the hoof? Sorry might be a dumb q's just wanting to do it right.

whudson

Jokersmama...This is the same horse and it is the RF causing the problems. I have brought the bars down some and will get some more pics tomorrow to post but the sole is not "level". That's what she ( farrrier) commented on. I think he also has some laid over bar there on the outer part of the RF which you may be able to see with new pics.

I personally think the farrier wants to put shoes ( as in not willing to trim) on the front as she feels it will solve his problem immediately. I just feel we've been making progress and to now put a piece of steel on the foot...well I don't want to go there but it kills me to see him soooo ouchy.

Nashama

Carpet Boots are cut a piece of carpet to fit the bottom of the hoof. Put the poultice against the sole then tape the carpet on. If you have nothing else with an acutely foundered horse then it doees work, as does carpet in a pair of Old Mac's. Generally, we will use vet tape and put an elderly Old Mac over the top as it is much better.

The carpet we learned when EasyBoots were fresh on the market. A nurse bought our old pony for her littlies and he was concussion foundered by the farrier and had to have boots, and to reduce his concussion when ridden she got some rubber backed carpet and fitted that into Smokey's boots.

Something fairly commonly seen here in Australia in summer is a yard with 3 pieces of carpet down and a barefoot horse soaking prior to being trimmed. We use carpet for quite a few things, but there is no doubt boots are much easier to handle.

whudson

Thx Nashama....I like the carpet idea

jokersmama

The sole of the hoof should not be "level" it should be somewhat bowl shaped, highest at the outer wall and lowest in next to the frog or collateral grooves.

I was trying to say the walls and bars should be even with or slightly above the live sole plane.

Just clarifying

whudson

Leah

whudson-first of you owe no one apologies if you feel your horse needs shoes...HOWEVER (didn't you KNOW there would be a however???

)

Some things to think about.

The shoe will not cure the lameness-the shoe may allow the horse to be ridden but it is not a cure. I would HAVE to find out WHY before using something that simply allows the horse to work.

Secondly, PLEASE get very clean correct photos of the RF...just like mike shows. It is hard I know-maybe try 2- 3 shots of each view.

Just get the RF for now. only worry about photos of that foot.

Make sure you are very centered on the lateral (Side) shot.

The RF hoof is very unhealthy. The health of the foot has decreased since April. The frog is less unhealthy and the bars are growing ALLLLL around the frog.

The angle that you took the side shot is at a funky angle so very hard to tell. There seems to be (from that photo) a very dramatic change in the growth ring not from not long ago.

Personally (just from those photos), I am not surprised the horse is lame-but I would be surprised if this is a shoe is the fixer problem. I just see a trim that needs help and a horse that would be fine.

NOW THAT said, don't get all twiggy on me-you want your horse to be helped and having a grasp on the problem is the first step. So what if you mucked up some of the trim-dust yourself off, get more information and try again!

We have ALL messed up in learning.

Were it my horse I would be patient a LITTLE while longer since there is one obvious issue-the trim. I would focus on fixing that first THEN worry about whether my horse needed shoes.

Blue Flame

Looking at this shot (below) you posted in the other thread, the one Leah commented on not being a good angle, it appears as though the heel is off the ground. It this horse standing on his bars? That could be very painful.

If you never trim the bars, and rasp the heels down each trim, it could be very likely. In the first instance, I'd be checking if his bars are actively bearing weight. Do this by looking along the ground at the hoof to see where the weight is being carried or simply lay your rasp across the bars and see if they are higher than the walls. If they are, I'd take them down to enough make them just slightly passive (maybe 1/8" below the walls) on a hard flat surface and see if that doesn't make him more comfortable. I wouldn't try to take too much bar away at once, because you say that foot has stayed flat and the pics show a long frog which can sometimes indicate a distal descent or straight sinker - in which case the foot might be looking for sole pressure to help drive P3 to a higher position. If taking a little bar away increases comfort, dont be surprised if the bar pops back up quite quickly. If the horse gets sore again then take a little bar out if that's what works.

If you were to shoe that foot, you'd be making the bars passive anyway, so he might feel better but you wouldn't know why.

Also, is the horse sensitive in the central sulcus if you pick it out? If so, there could be an underlying frog infection. Again, if you shoe the foot you'll be relieving the frog of pressure and the horse might be more comfortable but you wouldn't know why.

That knot of sole just in front of the inside heel reaching into the whiteline struck me as being very similar to a foot in Pete Ramey's DVD series "Under the Horse".

Bars can be a controversial topic across various trimming styles - I've come to the conclusion that the right style is the one the horse is comfortable with.

In the meantime, if you haven't read this then it might help. http://www.hoofrehab.com/thebars.htm

whudson

Hi Leah and Blue Flame...

First off Leah I don't feel my horse needs shoes...I'm just scared to death and nobody around here knows anything about barefoot. I know if I put shoes on, I am masking the problem but he is sooo sore and was actually hoping that the farrier might bring those bars down a little because it seems to me that they are causing the problem. I promise more pics today.

I do think that you are right blue flame and Leah , the heels and toe are not weight bearing

The weight seems to be in the middle of the foot.

What scares me is everything I read with re to lameness says the first thing to do is "pull the shoes". So my horse is lame and somebody wants to put shoes back on.

And Leah, I just need help, I just want him comfortable....could care less at this point with re to riding. I promise not to get "twiggy"...tough I can't promise no tears.(though you won't even see those

...patient and wait a lilttle longer I think I can do.

Blue Flame, looks like a great article and will read after the barn and pics.

Playenatural

Leah

whudson will you email them to me?

I can walk you through what I would do much easier AND I can draw on your photos.

whudson

Good idea Leah and thank you so much !!!!!!!!! I assume you mean pm as I don't have your email

I will post here as well....and I still think I need to get a pic of the solar plane. I see overlaid bars and a sick frog.

Leah

ok the solar shots are good.

The front and side are still 'off angle' and create distortion.

if the toe is 12 o'clock and the heel is 6 o'clock, the lateral shot needs to be at 3 or 9 (depending on the hoof).

The front shot needs to be dead on 12 o'clock,

I KNOW this is a PAIN but photos distort to some level even when taken correctly....when the angles are off they are hard to assess-any advice given can get you in trouble.

Keep hanging in there!

I sent you my email.

Leah

We can talk about some of this here-

I am asking questions not to 'trick' you but I need to know what you know...and don't be ashamed at all...everyone starts somewhere.

Do you know what the white line is, what the outer (pigmented) wall is and what the inner (unpigmented) wall is?

These are very important structures to identify!

Let's start there!

Leah

2. Can you draw on your own photos?

If so can you take one solar shot and make an outline or just follow where you think the current bar is-just make a line following wherever it goes like a trail ride.

If you can't, you can print one and draw on it then scan it.

whudson

Leah sent you some shots...both marked on and not.

calatar

Can you post the marked photos here? I know there are several others that are still learning (aren't we all!) and would benefit from seeing them.

Leah

If you want, this can certainly be a 'broad conversation.'

So-to anyone interested-the white line, inner wall (also called the water line) and outer wall.

What is the function of each and what does a healthy form of each of those look like?

The bars....what is the function of the bars and what does a healthy bar look like? How long should it be? How tall?

Here is the deal-there are different trim theories and different approaches.

So I am not looking for 'right or wrong answers'-just answers with reasons.

If you know the function and you know the correct and healthy shape then you are much closer in knowing what to trim (and what NOT to trim).

These answers (once discussed) will give whudson the info she needs to understand what in this hoof COULD be causing lameness...not saying it will give THE answer but it will help understand the possibilities.

whudson

I agree Leah< I think this would be a good learning experience, not only for me. Anyway, gone for the night, back in the am.

Thought I would share my thoughts so that we all could learn

....

The first shot seems to me to be overgrown bars and anything inside the blue line is bar...almost.

The second shot I think is a seperated white line....I cleaned out some flakey stuff

calatar

Hmm not really sure on the different functions on the white line, inner wall, and outer wall. I know you want a tight connection between the white line and the wall, and although I can't yet describe what the healthy version looks like I feel fairly comfortable distinguishing healthy from not visually.

Bars, well here is where I feel a little information overload as there is just so many different theories out there. Honestly not sure that I know their real function but do know they are an extension of hoof wall and they should bear weight passively. They should be fairly straight and end at about the midpoint of the frog. Although some horses self maintain bars fairly well, others need to be trimmed.

Leah

ok calatar I am picking on you now

I don't mean to sound rude (but it will)-how can you trim if you don't know what a healthy "X" is or what its function is?

The function determines shape form of a structure-so you need to know correct form and function to trim, yes?

Yes...there are different theories-but each one should have a reason for what it does.

Again-I am NOT promoting what *I* do-I am just trying to get some thoughtful discussion of different ideas so some folks that have NO help can have more information to choose a path.

So...anyone? Heck lets do it for the following.

1. frog
2. sole
3. bars
4. outer wall
5. inner wall
6. white line
7. heels (the heel platform, or called the angle of the bar by some)

And for fun

7. digital cushion
8. lateral cartilage

Healthy form and function of each.
When you KNOW this, you will have a better understanding of trimming and not just rasp to rasp.

(OH how I wish Mike shows up for this)

Playenatural

Ok here is my first bit, I'll be back with more.

This is where I think whudson's horses bars end on the sole.

I know it's not the best of the three pictures but the bars could be seen best in it.

Playenatural

1. frog- soft rubbery cushion for the bottom of the foot
2. sole- hard flexible cushion for the bones in the foot
3. bars- traction, suspension, they spread with each step
4. outer wall- outer wall grows from the coronet band, made of the same material as your fingernail, it protects the inner hoof.
5. inner wall- horny laminae, holds the wall to the sensitive laminae
6. white line- evidence of the attachment in #5, can be a weak spot, shows stretching and loss of a good attachment between the horny laminae and the sensitive laminae.

And for fun

7. digital cushion- large cartilage under the bars and frog for shock absorption.
8. lateral cartilage- the one I don't know.

Leah

which structures are responsible for shock absorption and dispersing energy?

What happens when these structures are weak?

PN what does a healthy wall look like?

What about healthy bars? Frog? How wide? What shape? How long?

calatar

Leah

I disagree-the function tells you what is missing-if you know what is missing then you know what the hoof can or can't do.

For example let's say a horse is missing the structure responsible for buffering impact or energy-that tells you he can not be ridden on hard terrain or if it is bad enough should not be ridden at all without creating harm.

This is what keeps horses form getting hurt or suddenly coming up lame down the road.

Some structures can be weak and still allow certain kind of riding (say in an arena) but SOME structures mean no riding at all without causing trouble.

Does that make sense?

calatar

calatar

Leah

HA! There ya go...now according to one theory there is one more structure that has to do with energy...buffering energy.

When energy is NOT properly buffered horses get sore...maybe not footsore-THIS is the kicker-some horses can have somewhat weak structures and not be foot sore but the impact will travel to soft tissue then joint.

NOW with THAT information-go look at whudson's pics...what structures are weak? Which ones are healthy? What is the result of the unhealthy structures? yes pain-but what happens.

For example-flaring is what? detachment, correct? if you keep the pressure the walls will never properly attach. IF you keep pushing that hoof what happens first? What happesn at worst case scenario?

Why is the RF sore now and not before? What changed? Which structures got worse?

There are more details (of course) but this is going to really help whudson

Leah

calatar

Not at all :-). I enjoy a good discussion.

Playenatural

Shock absorption and dispersing energy - frog, digital cushion, concavity of the sole, the flex of the bars through the wall, even the stretch of tendons.

If these structures are weak, we can see lameness, cracks, abscess, laminitis and so on.

Healthy walls are smooth, they have straight horizontal growth lines slanting from the toe to the heel. They should attach smoothly to the sole via the white line.

Healthy bars I think should have some substance and stand slightly pronounced from the sole. They slope from the heel buttress and slide down toward the frog.

The frog should be nearly the width of the heels and about two thirds the length of the foot. Heart or triangle shaped with a V shaped grove in the middle. It should be clean with no black gunk growing in the groove.
Mine are somewhat like mushrooms they start out narrow where they grow out of the foot and then spread to the weight bearing surface, but I'm not sure how normal this is.

Wow, I feel like I'm in school.

Leah

OK I will offer this one up.

The inner wall. KC taught us that the inner wall buffers energy as well.

When you see cracking walls or bruising check out the inner wall

PN-healthy frog is 2/3 wide as it is long. It is not related to length of total foot or heels-think of contracted heels.

SO this does not get TOO detailed...what about whudson's RF?

Leah

Also-you can cheat by looking at karmikacres hooves on the sticky.

The solar shot of that foot is VERY nice-

so what is the differences between that foot and whudson's?

Go structure by structure.

Playenatural

jokersmama

1. frog ~Support & energy absorption for the back of the hoof. Should be wide and thick and nicely calloused.

2. sole ~Protection for coffin bone and internal structures and when concave provides energy dissipation. Should be concave, shiny, calloused free from bumps and lumps.

3. bars~ Support for the back of the hoof. grow from the bottom of the solar corium not the sides like the outer wall. Continuation of the wall. Provide grip and energy dissipation. Should be straight not flared and stop about mid point of the frog. Some say they provide sole material...?

4. outer wall ~Protective armour coating and support if healthy. Should be smooth without cracks or chips or flaring.

5. inner wall ~ Where most of the weight bearing should be. Should be a tight connection with the outer wall and the white line.

6. white line~ The glue that holds it all together, and supplies the outer wall with keratin (I think ?) Should be free from holes or pits, tightly connected to the inner structures. I know there's more but I can't think of it.

7. heels (the heel platform, or called the angle of the bar by some)~ Support, traction, landing zone. Should be at an angle that is comfortable for the horse and their level also directly affects the angle of the coffin bone.

And for fun

7. digital cushion~ Shock absorption for the inner structures of the hoof. Should be thick and firm when palpated. (not rock hard just firm)

8. lateral cartilage~ Shock absorption for when the sides of the hoof are loaded and the horse is turning. Should be thick and firm also.

Healthy form and function of each.

How'd I do?

IMHO~*from what I see in the pics*

RF hoof is sore because the bars were allowed to overgrow to the point of going all the way around the frog, they are filling in for weak structure (meaning the weak/sick frog). Most of the weight bearing is on the bars and that is putting a tremendous amount of pressure on the bottom of the solar corium causing tenderness, bruising, and possible abscessing. *rock in your shoe* The collateral groove depth says that hoof has a lot of excess material that can come off the bottom.

Am I way off....??

**this is fun!**

Clarissa

I'm loving this whole conversation too. So enlightening, thankyou Leah in particular.

White line & waterline??? Back a bit I think it was Leah who said they were one & the same. Then back 2 posts PN intimated they were different structures.

I'm confused because I thought they were different structures. The whiteline is the connection between outer & inner walls & whiteline is an opaque layer immediately behind those 2.

So when the layers are visible on the sole after a trim there appears to be 2 distinct whiteish lines, 1 behind the other.

When I was taught to shoe, I was taught to drive the nail in just at the connection between the whiteline & the wall & never to drive a nail into the waterline which is futher in from the whiteline.

What then, am I looking at?

My thoughts on the whudson's hoof is that there is a huge buildup of undetatched sole that should've been shed but can't let go for some reason...OR...Hoof protecting itself by creating a massive buildup of sole because there is other drastic damage, ie significantly reduced frog & misshapen bars. Reducing it would need extreme care though. Slowly, slowly so as not to inflict more discomfort as the pedal bone may be compromised.

When I see the photos I think of me in my army booted days having to walk around in boots with a massive buildup of hard mud on their soles. My arches, shins & achilles would get ever so sore. All very heavy, cumbersome, tiring & painful.

whudson

Great conversation and learning experience

But how do I proceed? How drastic and over how long a period? Bars are definetly overgrown and I can deal with the frog.

Here's an old pic from a week or two ago which might show the overgrown bars better

Nashama

You certainly have some interesting pressures going on there.

whudson

I was reading on this website last night re trimming of laid over bars as well as normal bars and did find it informative....what do you guys think?

http://blog.successful-natural-ho...com/trimming-mistakes-2-the-bars/

There are videos at the bottom.

whudson

Nashama

Leah's probably better able to answer from a hoof point of view as we look for different things, but as a body worker, if I picked that hoof up and looked at the pressure zones, I would be wondering why my client has the frog pressured across to the one side if you are trimming him lightly fortnightly. First thing would be to get those bars under control and yes, I would ask for that frog to be trimmed, then I would be looking very carefully at what he is doing all the way down the legs - pigeon toed, duck footed, swinging the legs, heel or toe first landings, etc.

While we can all chat away with theories, the (qualified?) farrier you asked has seen something in his conformation, so apart from correcting the problems Leah is pointing out, I would give him a short paddock break then bringing him in and be analysing his gait before another trim and looking where the pressure zones are.

Something many people never seem to get is hoof and body problems are cyclical - hoof causes body causes hoof causes body... You need to look holistically at both in order to bring a horse back to soundness.

Clarissa

Is it possible the 'conformation problems' noted by the farrier are actually created by the misshapen hoof?

Surely hoof pain would cause the leg/shoulder/back to be used in a different way which would cause changes to the muscles etc. Then there would be a self perpetuating cycle.

Since it has only recenetly happened, I would look at what has grown or changed recently rather than things that have been that way for months/years.

Nashama

It can be a chicken/egg scenario. Sore feet will cause sore shoulders, but once you have fixed the feet then you need to also fix the stuff they caused higher in the body, or you often see them again in the feet. This horse may be fine with a short paddock spell, but Wanda will probably need to do some massage and stretching just to shift things back into place.

More often I see horses with existing body problems causing feet deformity, but if Wanda is having issues with the bars then I would suspect the fix starts with the feet and the rest will follow with a bit of firm grooming, leg massage and stretching.

The statistic for Glen and I as a team would be around 50/50 of the hooves or the body being the cause of the problem. It's a quite fascinating thing to watch and the latest barefoot education is now thinking along the dual fix lines - we were at a clinic on the weekend and I was pleasantly surprised as to just how much Glen and my approach, got to with observation and hard work, has been taken along those same lines the educators.

Leah

whudson

Ok Leah, now you've got me worried, can a hoof "splat" ? Damm I wish there was a BF trimmer closer !!

Soft terrain??? I live on a great big rock in the middle of the Atlantic.

Even to go from the field (rocky) to the barn we have to cross a hard gravel driveway, however we do take the softest route. I have a question though, so far I have been leaving him out with the others in the field day and night, I can paddock him and he would be confined to a smaller area but he wouldn't be happy with that.

Anyway, my plan is to soak the feet today and start treating the thrushy frog maybe try some more pics.

If I do have to go with shoes (to prevent splatting) ...what do you think of these?

http://www.farriercorral.com/Easy...shoes-p/horseshoes%20-%200614.htm

whudson

With re to boots, could a horse wear them all the time? I thought that was a temporary thing like if you were going on a rocky long trail ride kind of put them on at the start and take them off at the end.

Which boots would anyone recommend? I would have to order them in so I would assume it would take a few weeks to get here, doesn't help me much now

Leah

I can't help you with shoes at all...maybe tater can.

Boots can be worn a good bit-I would not do 24/7 but I have had a horse in them 20 hours a day for a couple of weeks.

The best boot is the one that fits. I have used Epics, Bars, Edges, Old Macs and Cavallos just depending on the shape of the foot.

Easy Care Inc has sizing and fitting charts.

kristie

Clarissa

Since I have found easyboots to be so good for Sonny's feet he has been wearing them for several days at a time. If the weather is wet I take them off 12hrs in 36. But if it is dry I don't need to take them off. The new epics with gators seem to breathe less but he is now fitting back into his old easyboots with no gators & they are quite low at the heel so they breathe well.

Whudson perhaps you can get hold of a set of secondhand easyboots. You only need to boot the fronts so 2 is easier to get than 4. Getting the right size is a challenge though. The new sizings shown on their website are for all their newer lines. You will need to trim his feet & measure across & down the centerline. The website shows where to measure. But the name of the size will vary from what it used to be. A size 0 is now a size 1 more or less! Then you have to fit the heel strap to fit your horse & if the strap needs changing that has to be ordered & so on.

Could be a real bother & all up may take as long to find boots as it will to just get in there & fix his feet. If he was my horse & I had no access to professionals (as in reality is my situation due to financial constraints) I would just take a bit off each week & go by intuition & keep him on soft ground where possible. Exercise is very important so to keep him in the paddock would be my aim. If he got sore I would seperate him incase he was bullied.

Otherwise I would have a clear picture of how his foot should end up looking like & work away at it a bit every few days or do a bit everyday. One day I would massage muscles, next day I would scrape a bit of sole off, next I would slightly change heel or treat frog, next day I would trim bars a little & so on. Then each second week I would trim the other hoof a bit.

Actaully that's sort of what I do with Sonny now anyway. I'm always fiddling with his feet these days to get them better & it certainly is working.

The one thing I wouldn't do is put shoes on. If the damaged foot is raised up with a shoe, the pain may be temporarily eased, but it is still a damaged foot but now it is swinging in the air with no support under it at all. So the pedal bone has a greater chance of falling unless the shoe has a pad inserted. If a pad is used you can't clean the frog or treat it for fungal infection, etc.

Good luck!

Leah

Playenatural

So where are the bars on this foot? Are they really wrapping around the frog like whudson thinks? Or are they just splaying out over the sole? The pictures make it difficult, I just want to pick up the foot and pick at it to figure it out.

On boots, has anyone looked at the Easyboot RX yet? I'm thinking about them for my mare, but at this point I have her on tilled dirt.

Playenatural

One more thing.

Why would there be no inner wall/ water line?

ForgeNHammer

I personal think easy walkers stink big time! I've used them...they didn't hold feet together at all. If you want to shoe and are convinced that nail on steel shoes are bad than use Yasha glue ons. I love em. Google tenderhoof.com it's Ian McKinlays site. He's the guy who shod Big Brown. And honestly if you get all your ducks in a row you could probably glue them on. I feel bad charging what I do for them because it's so fast.

Leah

Tater-what do you think of Epona's???

They can be applied as glue ons as well.

Granted that doesn't solve the balance issues....

ForgeNHammer

Heres a quick video with them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1i8gMqbvB4&feature=channel_page

ForgeNHammer

Leah

Why though?

How do they look like crap?

ForgeNHammer

I don't know why, I just know they don't hold feet together. The ones I've used them on have been foundered horses (they really like them first 3 weeks or so, but the feet fell apart in the them) and a few jumpers...lets not go there!

Leah

interesting. I have recently heard some very good things about the Epona clinics.

ForgeNHammer

Heres an example of holding a foot together:

This is a friends barrel horse thats been barefoot for a year or so, they decided to start running barrels again and the feet didn't hold up. We gathered them back up and put handmade concave on. She moved out really nice after.

Leah

Do you have a lateral shot of that foot? Looks nice from the front. (Well other than the shoe! LOLOL)

ForgeNHammer

I know you think the toes are long already!(I don't) It's working for this horse. Remember it's job.

Leah

thanks...I won't beat you up over the toes.

Heck in today's world of poor trims and foolish theories they look better than most.

Heck better than half the professional bare trims I see these days!

ForgeNHammer

I thought those handmades were sexy anyways!!!

Leah

LOL...freak.

Why don't you use one of those as your avatar?

I much prefer them to the avatar photo!

Leah

Leah

Blue Flame

In the last DVD of his series "under the horse" (Road to Recovery of a foundered horse), Pete Ramey has an owner pad and boot the horse for turnout - 22 hours on - 2 hours off to clean up the horse and boots and allow them to dry out. During the 2 hours off, they walk the horse to see how she moves with vs without boots. When the horse is the same with and without boots, they discontinue the boots.

ForgeNHammer

Leah

Oh thank you! I will have to live with the toe clip but much better!

ForgeNHammer

Leah

From a flip flop girl, my toes just cramp looking at it!

oldmac_donald

Well I'm a Converse All-Stars girl (think human toe clamp!) and am just LOVING that hoof of yours Forge.

I wish my horse's (bare) feet looked that good, or that there was a farrier within coo-ee of here that did even fractionally as nice a job as this one.

Nashama

Newfman

Pretty Crafty shoe there Forge. Hey, did you Armour-All that foot?

You said it best when you said 'to hold the foot together'.

Shoes do not cure foot problems. Trimming does not cure foot problems. If we left the horse to his own devices and released him with the Mustangs, and he didn't get pummeled to death or eaten, he would very likely fix his feet by himself. We can do things to encourage healty hoof growth and we can do things to discourage healthy hoof growth. From the way that Forge described his client, they didn't want to take the time and put in the effort that the horse would need in order to develop a strong performance hoof. (I am not picking on you, so bare with me, I hate shoes but still appreciate the artistry, and those are pretty amazing)

I liken it to this.....Dad lets you borrow his cherry 100% showroom stock '67 Camaro for your Friday night date. You and your "date" cruise up to the local dragway, throw some fat tires on the rear and enter it in
the Street Eliminators class. Later that night, in your driveway at home as the driver is unloading the car from the back of the tow truck, you get to explain how the engine blew because, though you had racing tires, it didn't make the car a race car. Good farriers know that the feet need time out of shoes to "heal" from......(?).....yes, having shoes on. After a few week break and a proper trim, Forges client could have used that time to create a strong performance hoof, but they likely took the "time-off" from horse stuff as well. So, Barrel racing season start, nobody is properly prepaired, so, throw some racing tires on and go. You will not be successful barrel racing a soft footed horse, and shoes will keep the hoof together, atleast....until they won't. Hopefully, if you are shoeing your horses, you have someone that pays close attention to detail, like the above photos show, and you give your horse some off time but do a proper barefoot trim, not a pasture trim.

Getting back on track.........

Newfman

It looks to me like this foot is being trimmed from the top (TTFT). I would bevel the hoof wall (from the solar side, working outward) from the edge of the white line out. There isn't much to do at the toes because they have been rasped vertically down. Just put a little 45* bevel from that crusty white line out and carry it around to the toe-quarters. From the Toe-quarters to the heel quarters, reduce to about 20* and bring it to the white line. Reduce the heels until you reach live sole, and do so while rasping from the toe, towards the heel to bring the heels back a bit. The heels are unbalanced and it looks like the Lateral heel has a floor jack under it, canting the hoof over to the medial side, ergo, the medial flare.

I would touch up the flares on the outside but don't go crazy.

Soles and bars.....hmmmmm. As much trouble as this one out of four hooves have been, I wouldn't mind an x-ray if it is in the budget. One with good markers to show sole thickness and the angles of the coffin bone. A good Vet knows how to handle that. It may be useful to know if there is a problem inside the foot that may actually enourage this guy to steep in a way that provides more comfort from , say, arthritis or fracture etc. If his soles are to soft or weak to be comfortable in a proper trim, it is time to boot him while he develops a proper frog, cushion, and suspensory system. A good soak in white lightening or similar product to clean up some of that bio-crud would likely be beneficial as well.

As long as the bars don't exceed the height of the hoof plane along the solar aspect, I wouldn't screw with them. They do not look folded over, they may be adding sole where needed, and you can't just cut for the sake of cutting.

So, clean it, trim it, balance it, boot it and leave it. X-rays would be prudent. I didn't get the age on this horse, and what is his diet?

Kit will be fine. Don't stress, don't jump on shoes unless you just need him comfortable to ride right away and are hell bent against booting.

That would be my protocol.

ForgeNHammer

whudson

Hi guys, have to catch up on some reading, it appears this topic has attracted a lot of attention. I had to get away for a couple of days and collect all my thoughts with re to the whole situation.

I caved...."metal" shoes went on Kitt's two front feet today.

I could watch him in pain no longer and I have to be honest, I didn't have the guts or the confidence to deal with this issue alone. In my mind, it is just a short term thing to have him comfortable for now. I have plans to try again, maybe in 1 month, maybe in 2-3 months. In the meantime, I need to sell some Parelli stuff and get Pete's DVD set. He stays barefoot in the back.

Thanks soooo much for all your help everyone. Forge n hammer...I need to look into the shoes you suggested and I think if I have to stay with shoes then that is something to consider.

whudson

Thx Newfman as well...I was surprised that you stayed away from this one as long as you did

Great advice I think but I think I have to admit my inexperience in this case. Riding was not/is not the issue. I just can't watch him cripple anymore and there is really no soft ground to put him on to keep him comfortable. We have had a very dry summer ( record breaking temps) and I am still wondering what that big orange thing is in the sky

All of this equals...very hard ground. They don't call this place "the Rock" for no reason!!

Anyway, tonight he is walking fine. I do still know that I haven't solved the problem.

On another note I was talking to a friend of mine who is currently in Vermont and she says she has found the best barefoot trimmer ever who has/does work with Pete Ramey. She is trying to talk her into coming here to do a clinic.

Which I will be attending !!

ForgeNHammer

Newfman

Sorry, I had taken a few days off from the computer. It tends to use up a lot of my time these days and you had plenty of help. Sorry you had to move to the dark side ( tongue3

just kidding) Kit and you could probably use a little break. Study up, make as much of the available time as positive as you can. Order up some cadaver hooves if possible. If the person in Vermont comes out, you will be in great shape. Maybe I will just pop out with my dogs and show them around their home country! LOL, (pipe dream, no vacations in MY future!)

Let's see those new sneakers!

Cheers,
Dennis

Leah

whudson

Would love for you to come for a visit Newfman...I take it you have some Newfoundland dogs? Beautiful animals!!

Ok pics coming up. Will take them today. Actually, she did very little to the hoof itself. Kind of left my trim alone other than to "level" up the RF to take a shoe.

I have to sell some of my PNH stuff to get Pete's Dvd and some much needed boots for our future transition.

At least now I am not feeling as stresssed

and hopefully Kitt got to move away from the gate overnight to play with his buddies !!

When I left yesterday, he was still moving a little stiffly but that may be because he cast himself two nights ago on the electric fence !!!

I think it was a little "shocking" for him. Glad I wasn't there !!! BO called me after it was over and said she felt he was moving a little sorely on his LH. Guess he won't do that again

Anyway I will get pics later today. Thanks for all your support even though I have gone to the "Dark Side"

Wanda

kristie

jenlm

Forge,
That is a beutiful handmade shoe. The toe clip is amazing. From watching my husband handmake most of the shoes he uses I can appreciate the skill needed to forge that set. Great job.

ForgeNHammer