Feeding Time

hkfarms · Feeding Time

Not sure where to put this, but I need some ideas on what to do. My weanling gelding (6 months old, gelded two weeks ago) paces the fence quickly, lowers his head as he turns around and pins his ears when I come out to feed or he just sees me coming. He did this to his mom when he would come to nurse pinning his ears at her when he approached her and as he sided up with her to nurse.

I have been stopping, and standing still, as soon as I see him do it, waiting until he stops and looks at me with ears forward, then I continue toward him, stopping again if he starts pacing and so on. He never gets fed unless he has his ears forward and happy, respectful look on his face. I generally feed under the fence. He will be in the same pen next week with his mom again. She doesn't do this to the same degree. She stands still with a grumpy face when I come to feed her, and same thing, she doesn't get fed until she has her ears forward and happy look.

Suggestions?

CoolsLadyInRed

I learned this from John Lyons years ago. If their ears aren't politely inviting, the empty bucket gets tossed towards them. Not to hurt them but to scare them and get their ears forward. With my mare I insist she stay out of my bubble while I put her pellets in the bucket. If she gets too close I act like another horse would and kick at her with my back to her. She moves right out of my space. They need to respect you and your space. I guess if you have a carrot stick/dressage whip to keep the space, that would work,too.But the ears pinned back is totally unacceptable and disrespectful. You have the right idea with needing their ears forward. Can you feed your foal and the mare in an enclosed area and work on their manners there? Does he halter?Disengage the hind quarters away from you and keep him facing you with out too much pulling on the head if possible. Just wouldn't want you to get kicked. The mare, too. It sounds like they need to be reminded you are the lead horse

(Pinning those ears can lead to biting or nipping many times.) I hope that helps some.

gaitinalong

There's an old saying father's had when their daughter's started dating:

"If he doesn't respect his mother, he sure as ***l isn't going to respect you."

How a dam raises her foal plays a very important role in how that foal views their interaction with people.

The dam should've knocked the snot out of him for his bad behavior but she never did so his bad behavior is now including you.

IMHO, you're going to have to not be nice to him. If he were mine, I'd set him up for failure so I could give him 45 seconds of I am going to kill you if you ever do that again. And I would do that as many times as takes to get him to be respectful.

I am sure the NH trainers would take a much milder approach but, I am sorry, when it comes to this sort of behavior, biting, kicking, rearing, bucking and they don't have any health issues -- it's me or them. My 5'3" self always comes out the winner. I am by no means cruel to my horses but I have five rules that there is no margin for error; that's not too many for an 1,100 pound horse

If you don't get his bullying/pushy attitude under control now, he's going to hurt someone down the road.

Hope this helps

bit

I can't say enough about the whr's. It totally changed Hawk's behavior from dangerous to kind and respectful. If mom doesn't teach him how to be a good horse, it's up to you. Might help teaching mom, as well. lol, break that cycle of abuse!

Clarissa

This is a long post that contains the whole of the lesson I would use with any foal that didn’t have respect. It can also be used the same for any horse that was lacking the vitals of humility. So like others here are saying it pays to get this done right early in life.

Rider I have spent many years experimenting with this very thing. I absolutely HATE IT when horses pin their ears at me. They are actually attempting to drive you or force you into submission, albeit a little off track since they can’t *actually* reach you. But the intent is strong & purposeful. It’s a case of ‘get that food here NOW’

During my years of raising foals for other people I discovered that if the mare kicked the foal away during those first few vital days of life, that foal was far more inclined to be respectful to her & in later life with all other horses & people too. The mare was teaching the foal to be respectful & considerate to her & it learned a good degree of humility.

Foals of lead or dominant mares seemed to be born with an inbuilt ability to suck up enough to avoid the kicks or only needed one thrust of the hip to learn, then went on to be blessed with the same amount of dominance as that granted to it’s mother by the herd. So it’s in the genes.

What to do? Well you have to do one or several rebirthing sessions with that foal before it’s too much older & teach it what it’s mother didn’t. Obviously it’s learnt from her that ears back (driving) pays off. Colts are far worse than fillies but a very domineering filly is still a force to be reckoned with. Colts will forcefully bully their dams into submission then often rear up over them to gain the upper hand as they get older & stronger. Just by the by, if he hasn’t been cut yet get right onto it or you will have an inbuilt bully forever. Colts should be cut at 10days. They grow better & have a much kinder disposition. The sedatives used as much less & their pain systems have not at that stage fully developed. So all in all it’s much kinder on the foal with generally no bleeding or swelling. Well that has been my experience after probably 50 or more colts.

So back to ears. You have to be VERY firm without yourself getting into bullying or nagging but if you have seen a mare kick her foal away repeatedly when you really though she was being unfair, now you know why. She was teaching that foal a lesson, one it HAD to learn & the quicker the better. That’s the amount of energy & determination input you need to deliver. If his dam has been kicking him away but he takes no notice or bullies her into submission, you have a really big job ahead of you & you will really need to be very committed.

You need to set up the situation for success in a small round pen that he definitely can’t escape from, have your thought processes clear, know exactly what you wish to achieve, don’t back off until you see a clear change & repeat & repeat until that foal has learned. The longer he has been doing this to you & his mother the more you have to undo. You can set up a small feed several times daily & he does NOT get it until he displays a GENUINE submission with respect. Not just some fleeting flick of ears. Foals learn VERY fast. If you mess it up he will give you an even harder time. He has been driving & bullying you ( & in his mind winning) because you eventually turn up with his feed regardless of whether he truly submits or not. Obviously he hasn’t been truly submitting in his mind or the problem would’ve gone away on it’s own.

Have him loose in the pen, have your stick & string with you, protect your space which includes that feed bin against the fence & at least half the pen should be in your bubble too. He can’t enter that space until he shows humility & if you do withdraw a tad to let him in & his demeanor changes back to bad even for a second you drive him back out of your bubble with force immediately. Tag him good & proper with the string on the rump a few times to show you mean it. A good mare would have done the same with her hoof.

However only repeat that move (ask for submission & drive away again) 3 times each session & if there is no change by the third try you take the fed away with you & wait an hour. It means he will go hungry maybe a whole day. Make sure the water dispenser is not in your bubble & don’t make it part of the game. That game of water withholding is for older horses that are disrespectful in the extreme. You can move around in your bubble space & if you think he may be getting the message but is confused you can take a small handful of feed (hay, whatever) & use it as a small reward treat without letting him into your half of the pen. This gives him the knowledge that you aren’t unfair or totally withholding feed & shows him that he may be on the right path. But once that treat is given you move right back to your spot in the center of your bubble & ask politely again for his respect on this matter.

The way I did it was when I asked for submission at feed time I would step aside from infront of the feed bin & point to it then look at the foal & turn sideways which withdraws my bubble allowing the horse in. But if that horse’s demeanor changed I would instantly turn to the front & step across infront of the feed bin & drive the horse away again.

Keeping him out of your bubble involves turning him back as he moves around each side of the pen. You should be determined, clear & quick with your moves so he realizes this is no party. “Work ethic” is a powerful teacher’s aid. If he can’t be respectful he has to move quickly back & forth on his side of the pen until he stops, faces & drops his head in submission. At which point you turn sideways & retreat (stepping sideways) to the far side of your bubble which will be where the feed bin is & also step away from the bin.

At that point he may want to follow you & he will most likely have his head lowered. You quietly say ‘good boy’ & back right out of the pen through the rails & leave him for a short while to eat in peace. Don’t fuss over him or start talking a lot. Just let him review in his mind what just happened. Stand quietly & watch from a distance to see if he sighs or blows out his adrenalin & blinks hard. Hopefully he will. That lesson needs to be repeated many more times until he starts initiating the lesson by adopting the head lowered position. He will soon learn it is easier to be humble & submissive than to get run around the pen or paddock right when he is expecting a feed. As he learns this lesson you can migrate to the open paddock or wherever you normally feed so long as the feed is on a fence that you can have your back to, to form the half circle that he will run around if you have to get insistent again.

Just rewinding to the roundpen & turning him back to stay on his side of the pen. If he turns with his rump to you, that is when you tag him hard (with respect for his age & size, naturally). So you might slap the ground infront of him with the string to stop his run & turn him back then keep the swing going with another overhand ready to tag his rump if he turns away from you. However if he persists in turning away from you it is because you are crowding him, not giving his face enough room to turn towards you. There is a fine line between vigorously turning a horse back & crowding it without enough room to turn properly, ie facing into the pen towards you as it turns. So you have to run towards the fence to slap the stick on the ground where the demarcation spot is then retreat just as quickly to give the foal room to make it’s turn back.

Don’t worry about a foal not understanding this because if done fairly they understand very well. Those that don’t understand have been molly coddled & allowed to get away with whatever. It doesn’t sound like you are that sort of person.

Now as your foal learns respect you ease off being the big bad ogre & start doing little things like grooming or scratching his itchy spots again while he eats his little bit of feed. But all in moderation or he will think you are going easy again & quickly resume the upper hand perhaps by kicking you as you stand beside him while he eats or throwing his head up with ears back. You will then drive him away promptly & start the game again. You will always need to be keeping him in his place to some degree or other & anyone who owns him down the line will find he will always try to regain top dog position is he can. Eventually you want to just need to point your finger at him if he is not offering the submission. So that starts by moving from using your stick & string to turn him back in the pen to just your stick poked out to just your arm poked out with finger pointing at the demarcation spot & gradually reducing your movements to as little as is necessary. Like Pat says “ as little as possible, as much as necessary”. I think that’s it. Well I have said it for many years too.

Also I think he should stay separated from his mother if he is being or has just been weaned because he will still bully her & she won’t enforce the lesson like you do, making it all the harder for you to retrain him. Also he will see her still having her ears back at feed time or any time & wonder why he can’t do the same.

Good luck Rider. thumbleft

Clarissa

And I'll just add this video again. This is what you get when all that training pays off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_NkHqULld0

hkfarms

I had this posted in another forum and some pointed out by feeding under/over the fence they see that as being inferior to them. I hadn't thought of that before. I had been feeding under/over because we have large square bales and I have hay allergies so feed with a pitchfork so don't touch it or breath it.

This morning put some in a bucket and went in with carrot stick and kept him away until he stayed out my space and lowered his head. I now see I need to quit babying him and be more strict in all his handling.

bit, what is whr's? Water Hole Rituals? I have seen some of that on youtube several years ago, but beyond that don't know anything about it.

Clarissa, he is cut now. You are right about the bullying, he would rear up on her all the time from about two months on. She is 19 and didn't discipline him much. A great mother as far as protecting and watching over and teaching, but not in the disciplining department. She has had A LOT of Parelli training before I got her so won't take her long to remember her manners. Like your video also.

Thanks for the help all

bit

Hawk's mom was the same way. He was the spoiled brat that got away with anything he wanted. I couldn't walk into the pasture without a cs. No one else could walk in, period.
Appellitivo has the notes for whr's on posts at the bottom. Uses horse behavior to communicate with your horse. It taught Hawk what no other horse had bothered to teach him. He finallly learned horse herd behavior, and as a result, the herd accepted him and he became a great, level headed, kind and good partner. I also learned how to be a better human partner. Really helped me read my horses and not take things they do so personally. It greatly improved the relationship I have with all the herd.
The thing about the pinned ears at feeding time, Shaun still pins his ears. This morning, his "go to your spot and wait" was just lovely, pinned ears and all. I've learned to celebrate those baby steps he makes. When he "licks the bowl" after he eats? Soft as can be, and the kindest eye. I'm holding the bucket and he will lift his head, touch my hand and go back to making sure every bit is eaten. It's our special time. I know those ears will get softer and softer. I make sure my ears are forward, too. I don't get angry or frustrated. Kinda like giving my daughter medicine. I'm assertive, yet compassionate. I think the whr's have made the biggest impact on my horse experience. Erin, do you still have those whr notes?

PasoBaby_CarolU

You know some horses habitually have their ears back a lot. I think making any horse back off and respect your space is critical...but I don't get overly concerned about ears back, unless they are pinned back. THEN I Phase 4 Yo-Yo... Even an ears forward horse can hurt you if they don't respect your space.

Mandy'sMarty

Mandy will often 'pin' her ears as she approaches me at liberty when I first greet her in her pasture. As I recall, she has always done this. It is not something that I notice every single time we greet, but it does happen often. There was a time when I attempted to re-shape that behavior in accordance with what I believed was "prescribed by Parelli". But then I gradually came to trust my instinct and to rely more on my interpretation of the energy associated with that particular behavior.

Mandy is a very dominant, wise mare. She becomes the lead mare wherever she is boarded and has been so even when boarded with more than 30 other geldings and mares. She is not aggressive although she can be very opinionated and assertive at times. The couple who are the resident barn managers constantly comment on how gentle and sweet Mandy is.

I have seen Mandy aggressive around food only once. It was during a very difficult time as she was rehabilitating from founder last year. She was in a dry lot paddock with very little vegetation and the hay was nutritionally poor. It was the best arrangement I could find at the time but it was not good. Her self preservation was foremost and she made sure she got her share of the hay.

Except for that episode, I can always feed Mandy from my hand. During long distance rides I used to feed her from a fabric dog bowl. I would often support the bottom of the fabric bowl with my hand and she would scrub the bowl clean with her teeth and tongue against my palm under the fabric.

I've come to believe that what Mandy is doing as she approaches me is folding her ears back, rather than pinning them back. I can tell the difference. I'm not yet quite sure but I believe it has something to do with her focus on me as she approaches me, specifically when we are surrounded by her herd mates. It may be partly due to her shifting energetic focus on me as well as her visual focus on me as she closes the focal distance between us. I suspect that as she focuses on me, that she has to give up her peripheral focus on her herd mates around us. And, I suspect that as she walks up to me, she is having to shift her forward focus on me and thus recruit a different part of the lens of her eyes on me. She is moving from middle distance to close-up distance. This process happens quickly but it probably creates a momentary uncertainty within Mandy...and this uncertainty is manifested by her folding her ears back.

It's just my opinion but I've come to believe that this behavior is a subtle hallmark of what Mandy experiences when I enter the scene amid her life as a lead mare. It must be a tricky transition for her. She appears to seamlessly move from one stage of her life within the herd to the other stage of her life where we are partners. As I have become more sensitive to the dual life she lives, I work harder at shaping my behavior within her herd so that I assume top rank in those relatively infrequent moments spent within the herd. By being a strong leader for Mandy, it takes some of the pressure off of her to try to 'protect' me from the others. (Not that she needs to protect me. They merely want to join me and get my attention. She sometimes gets jealous and then strives to drive them away...which then would indicate that she is dominant over me. I think it is easier on her when I am proactive and drive them away before she does.)

I didn't intend to hijack this thread. I did want to suggest that interpreting horse behavior can be very tricky, as it consists of many different shades of gray rather than being simply black and white.

bit

I'm finding that, just as with life and humans, I expect the best out of them. I celebrate their tries like Christmas. I give them my heart, and trust. Tony still wishes I looked at him like I look at my horses.
Marty, I just love your insights.

PasoBaby_CarolU

LOL Deb....my husband can't believe how much I kiss and smooch on all the animals...and not him. LOL Poor baby. Maybe he needs a fuzzier face.

But, my point, and I think Marty's, is that horses are individuals. If you have a hard and fast rule about ears forward, you might miss the fact that your horse is just different and perhaps being as friendly as they can. It takes some time to get to know each horse to know if it really is a snotty attitude. They may very well have their ears back to warn away other horses from 'their human.' If you always send your horse away you might very well miss having a good relationship with your horse.

Mandy'sMarty

I agree with Carol's comments. Particularly regarding the way we often miss having a good relationship with our horse.

I'll tell one more story and then I'll stop hijacking this thread.

A couple of years ago I boarded Mandy at a sprawling horse farm where one of Mandy's herd mates was a big gelding named Kas. His owner, Amy, was always treating persistent issues with his feet including thrush and tender soles. One day I was watching her tending to Kas. As I recall, she was doing something to treat scratches, I think, on his hind legs. As I watched, Kas slowly turned his big head and neck so that he could reach back towards Amy's hip.

She saw his mouth coming at her and she quickly twisted away. I stopped her just before she delivered a big smack on Kas. There was something about his energy that told me Kas was not playing gelding games with her in that moment. I told Amy to trust me and to allow Kas to do whatever he was trying to do. To her utter amazement...then embarrassment...and then sorrow, Amy realized that Kas was only trying to nuzzle her and do some reciprocal grooming on her. He was very gentle. She realized in that moment that she had probably smacked Kas countless times in the many years she had owned him when all he wanted to do was express his thanks to her for helping him feel better.

gaitinalong

Since we're on such a great subject with great input, I'd like to come back in and add that I do have one horse like Rider's.

He came to live with me when he was 2-1/2; he's now 17-1/2. At 16.1H he's the biggest horse in the pasture, so can look intimidating when he wants to.

Rusty is disrespectful - to everyone including the alpha dominant horse when I first had to put grazing muzzle on the alpha horse. I settled that by putting a grazing muzzle on Mr. Disrespectful who is third in the pecking order

We've had lots conversations thru the years and I am sorry it took me until four years ago to accidentally find out this disrespectful horse also has food allergies which contributed to his snarky personality.

Being oat/corn/soy intolerant added to his "I-don't-have-to-listen" attitude. I found that out when the alpha horse was diagnosed with metabolic issues four years ago and I took everyone off grain.

I had decided early on to never let him go; there aren't too many folks that would look past his generally snarky attitude and see what I see and, if he doesn't eat right, it just makes things worse.

He thrives on dangerous trails yet has panic attacks in the wide open spaces; is scared to death of mud puddles but makes a bee-line for the river; can come in one night wanting his ears itched and "accidentally" be pinching the palm of my hand when I give him is hay cube the next night. He gets smacked for the pinchies because you can't give this horse an inch. I have lost my balance and fallen under this horse more than once when trimming him - he about holds his breath and freezes until I say "Rusty it's ok" and I will hear him exhale, then shift his weight

Hopefully the young gelding in question will get his lessons quickly and without wasting too much of his life challenging humans so he can challenge and meet his potential instead

Hertha

Clarissa

I agree with Marty there are many different kinds of ears back. Rider was referring to the particular behaviour of foals pinning their ears. It is generally a naïve expression learned from their dam or allowed by her but as they grow it becomes an ego trip with dangerous attributes.

Rider I don’t think it would matter how you fed your horses, whether pitching hay to them from any angle or hand feeding from a bucket. It is their job to respect the space you ask for. It varies depending on the task. Your way of feeding would require them to stand back a bit without any squabbling & their attention on you. That is where the ears forward comes into it’s own. It’s not just to make them look pretty. It’s so they have both eyes & therefore their full attention on you. One ear & therefore one eye means only half attention on you at best. The other half of the brain is elsewhere or worse still asleep which is often the case.

It’s about asking them to be respectful by granting you their fullest attention at all times when you are around them unless you direct them otherwise. If they are driving you, you aren’t in charge or at the top of the pecking order, so you don’t have their full respect.

hkfarms

I agree also, there are different types of ears back, but his is a snarky type. I have to say that I'm pleased how working on this one issue has changed the way he behaves overall. He is more "in tune" and waiting for direction.

hkfarms

Thanks Hertha! I will take an afternoon to read it.