| Archive for It's About The Horse The Free Forum for those Doing Parelli - and a whole lot More! "Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful." Xenophon (430-355 B.C.), |
| fairhavenranch |
Flat Feet and the Transition to Barefoot*****Please be nice - I know this is a touchy subject and way below the level of many of you so please just try to answer knowing there will be a major difference in OPINIONS. I am seeking HELP from people I RESEPCT - not WAR.*****I stole this from another thread:
This is the part I do not get. The structure is the structure. I can not change this. The foot is flat. How does protecting the bottom of the feet and getting thicker sole help when the foot is still going to be flat anyway? He will be in boots, casts, whatever forever? How can he transition from shod to barefoot if there is never going to be any concavity? At the risk of getting shot, I can bring breakover back dramatically (those long toes you can't get rid of until the sole is thicker) when he is shod and his movement is outstanding. Superb elevation. Barefoot he will be lame until his sole hardens some (with medicinal help) and then heavy on the front end with no elevation at all. Additionally, his attitude is greatly improved when he is COMFORTABLE. I've gone the route Clarissa is going and after five years I am TIRED! I've been screwed in so many different directions I don't even know why I am asking anymore. I guess I am hoping for some new information that may shed light on this. Somebody please send me the PR DVDs.  
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| jokersmama |
I would send you PR's DVD's but I don't own them  I rented them and took an obscene amount of notes . You can rent them from giddy up flix.
My advise is if he is more comfortable in shoes, has a better attitude, and moves better, and you have tried barefoot for 5 years without success, then get him shod. BUT go look here at these shoes  :
http://www.eponashoe.com/ Life is too short to spend so much time trying to get them comfortable barefoot when they might not ever be comfortable without shoes (for whatever reason) and it certainly is not fair to our horses. I am in the same pickle with my gelding Pistol We tried all last year and he was comfortable most of the time but I want to RIDE him this year not spend the whole time working on his feet trying to "transition" him. Actually there is no "transitioning" involved he has been bare his whole life but had crappy hoof care due to my not being educated and trusting the wrong "farrier".
We have an obligation to them to help them be comfortable and happy, and honestly if his attitude is such that he is visibly unhappy then it's time to make a change.
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| ForgeNHammer |
I think it is not reasonable to think everyhorse can be barefoot or just front shoes or just a full set of shoes, for his whole life. A horse that is ridden is an athelete, atheletes sometimes get some down time and need some extras to keep them going. Thats a fairly normal thing. You really see this in dressage horses since some of them are shown into their 20's. Another thing to think about is, the horse might be like this because of comformation, posture, bad trimming, footing, his job, etc. So I think a more realistic way is if he's not sound barefoot, try a set of shoes. Wheather its, steel or ali or eponas fine but, give him some 24/7 protection. I'm always trying new things to see what works or what horses like, as long as it's not detrimental to the foot there isn't a problem and if it is, well then 5 wks later you can change it! | ||||
| Kim Cassidy |
Re: Flat Feet and the Transition to Barefoot
Hi Fair: What part of my typing is confusing? Do you mean the last part or all of it? What I was trying to say is that you will have a hard time stopping the vicious cycle of inflammation, cortisol release, insulin receptors being shutdown on a thin soled horse without relieving the pain. The pain of having a very thin sole and the ground and the bones smooshing everything between. You CAN give the horse a fake sole with IM and Epona's. IM and casts and a variety of other appliances. I prefer the Epona's over other methods, sorry Forge I know I know, they melt in the forge. I have recently started sampling steel shoes on some of my horses and I don't like them by themselves.
So Fair, for me, with my experience I find that the horse does build up sole BUT... when I take them barefoot they eventually use up that sole and end up with the original problem. Once a sinker always a sinker. Here is a series of photos from a horse I'm working on. He was in Epona's from July to November, shoes pulled due to time off work because of Lyme. The first photo is before trim on Jan 16th, second photo is after trim, third photo is before trim/shoeing. He is now back in the Epona's. Much happier too. He was ridden on Saturday bare and he was very unhappy. In the last photo you can see the last of his "protection" that is still sticking around. This horse was FLAT footed when I started working on him in Aug 08, we kept him bare til July 09 and then shod him. His improvement with the shoes was immediate. Sound on all terrain, lost weight, stride lengthened, etc. I have the after trim and the lateral shoe photos but not sure that pertains to this discussion. Will this horse ever be barefoot and sound on all terrain, all the time, I doubt it. As Forge said, any horse ridden on a regular basis is an athlete and more then likely needs protection.
While the dvd's are interesting and worthwhile, they are not going to give anyone the advice to shoe/protect the horses sole. Which is what Sunny and many others need.
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| fairhavenranch |
Re: Flat Feet and the Transition to Barefoot
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| fairhavenranch |
The thing is, when he's trimmed if he stays barefoot we try to take as little sole as possible and I have to Ricken's him twice a day for seven to ten days and watch him in pain, plodding along, heavy on the forehand, unrideable. When he's trimmed if he's shod we are still not overly agressive with trimming the sole but he literally prances away and never takes a lame step. Off we go into the sunset.
So the next question is........ Is there more to this than FEET? Is there some other biomechanical aspect that the shoes are affecting? |
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| appellativo |
not trying to get in the middle, but rent 'That's my horse #1, off track Thoroughbred' by Pete Ramey, and watch as a foundered/abscessed horse goes from three legged lame to thick-soled, concave and sound and rideable (without the use of shoes). using pads in cast, and later on, boots, then completely sound and rideable without anything but her bare feet. It can be done, and is done every day, by those who know what they are doing. This set of three vids shows how. rent them from giddyupflix.com. membership is only ten bucks a month.
edit: hint, diet is the first thing that must be addressed. see 'feeding the hoof' at hoofrehab.com under 'articles' |
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| fairhavenranch |
Erin: You just come right on in! This is what I want to hear. If there is a way to get this horse barefoot COMFORTABLY before he's too old to ride I'd sure like to find it. Hell, I'm going to be too old to ride pretty soon! I read the diet article and I'd say we score above average on that. I have four other horses, two with incredibly beautiful healthy hooves and two with better than average hooves for their breed as well. | ||||
| appellativo |
well try what pete outlines in that video series. if you try that by the book, and it's not working after a full hoof growth cycle (six to nine months, typically,) then I won't argue with the folks above who say to resort to shoes. | ||||
| jokersmama |
What does this mean? ^ I've never heard that before. Do you have any pics you would be willing to post? Did you look at the case studies on the Epona page? Very interesting! |
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| ElaineC |
Jimmy Rickens is a hoof formula to toughen up tender feet. We used it all the time at the track, it works like crazy, but I'm not overly sure of how safe and healthy it is  Having said that, I always have a bottle on hand. The stuff works.
http://www.hoof-care.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=36 |
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| Leah |
One problem. The horse is lame in that video. It is so far from completely sound and rideable it was upsetting to me (and other trimmers). Even the most perfect trimmer can not get it done every day. Some horses need temporary assistance to break the cycle of pain and heal. Sorry to interrupt these discussions but this one flipped me out. This is not personal apple-but I can't sit here and let owners get some false sense of security that Pete's trim in a box can help all horses-it takes more than a trim in a box. Either way-your thoughts are enthusiastic but the horse. is. lame. Anyway carry on. |
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| Clarissa |
It is obvious that any horse will be instantly improved if put in shoes of any kind. Sonny would leap out of his skin & instantly be a different horse for sure! But it’s that same old story. Why keep a horse shod if it only needs shoe every now & then? That’s why I have always had boots for him & why I am still persisting in achieving a sound(er) barefoot now. I can’t ride that much nowadays so shoeing would be quite a wasted expense for the most part.
I would gladly put some type of shoe on temporarily if it made permanent changes, but as FHR has just said, her horse returned to flat feet quite soon after it’s shoes were removed. So it may be the quality of the horn the sole is grown from, the shape of the coffin bone or the trim which can cause flat feet. Bugger! I wish I had photos of Sonny’s feet from 4yrs ago!!  When I trimmed him I always left a rim of wall about 1/4inch/5mm thick as a ‘shoe’. He was reasonably sound although not on bad rocks or very sharp gravel. He had boots for those times. But he could easily trot down normal gravel roads without problems. His walls were reasonably thick & it never occurred to me that his soles were thin because I don’t think they were then. That rim would grow to a bit longer & get worn to a rounded profile by the time he was ready to trim again about 6-8wks later. At that point his feet looked much like RAD’s first photo(16Jan 2010 BT). His soles weren’t overly concave but there was some concavity. He had been trimmed like that for all his life without problems. He used to be a well worked horse ridden at least a few days each week & rodeo/stock work on weekends.
Then someone told me his heels were too high……………………………. |
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| Kim Cassidy |
Thanks Fairhaven, it was me that was confused 
Erin, it is not resorting when one gives a horse the protection the HORSE WANTS. I am very well versed in diet, science, movement and trimming - it is not a majikal answer for every horse. Clarissa - some horses, like yours need shoes 24/7 maybe for 3 - 5 months or maybe for 10 months out of the year. My money is on the statement that your horse is more than likely not comfortable even in his pasture. Something happened to change that and it isn't just letting the heels get to high. I'm sorry. I see horses with wicked ugly hoof form that are as sound as a dollar on all terrain. Something is different and you need to break the cycle. |
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| Clarissa |
Indeed something DID happen! After someone said his heels were too high, they talked me into doing the extreme Strasser trim to 'fix' those high heels, which cut all the landscape out of the underneath of his feet.........over & over & over every few weeks. I was to keep doing it until there was a change............................... & indeed there was a change........................ His feet went flat & featureless! His walls & soles got super thin & he got soft footed in the extreme. His heels were never too high. He did however require a better saddle pad! |
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| Kim Cassidy |
Oh, well strasserizing your horse is a critical event Sorry to hear that. Okay so basically it is what I would call a mechanical founder.
But maybe we should discuss that on your thread and not derail Fairhavens questions about the barefoot transition. |
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| karmikacres |
Not to be a wet towel, but depending on what age the shoes were put on, and for how many years, the underlying structures of the foot may never come back. This is especially true for horses shod before 5 years.
Mike |
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| appellativo |
So true, Mike.
Leah are you saying that the TB mare in TMH #1 is still lame at the end of the series, when she is trotting around and carrying a rider without limping or head bobbing? If so,....I did not see that at all. (it IS possible my eye is not fine tuned as yours.) I don't see that Pete's method is a 'trim in a box.' There is a lot of sound theory and education in his work, and his results are borne out in practice. (I am not discounting all the wonderful work, research and insight that many other big names have done in the field of natural trimming by saying this, though. Pete is not the only barefooter getting good results.) Oh well, to each his own. Leah if you wrote a book or created videos on trimming, I'd sure like to buy them. Because you sure have strong opinions and I'd like to see what they are in a concise format. I didn't mean it as insulting that a horse would have to 'resort' to shoes. But I do think that an honest effort should be made to get them sound bare (using protection for the sole as needed to make the horse more comfortable in order so that he can land properly so he can build sole,-- which would then mean that the boots/pads/casts would COME OFF after a brief period of use--, which lots of barefooters do with the use of boots and pads in boots and pads in cast...why does everyone keep totally IGNORING that fact??? Videos DO show how to protect a sole that needs it and how to build sole. anyone who says different hasn't watched or wasn't paying attention.) Anyways. I think that if you personally had to wear a cast all the time to be comfortable or a shoe to be comfortable walking around your house and your job, you'd see something wrong with that picture and seek to restore original health, if at all possible. Then if that just were not possible, you would 'resort' to wearing the cast/brace/boot/shoe on your body in order to get along in life. That's all I'm saying. If you can fix it great, if you can't, just do what you gotta do. |
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| Leah |
You need to familiarize yourself with the impact of longterm low grade pain, release of cortisol, pain cycles and low grade laminitis and you might change your views. Anyway over and out-as i have said, I am not interested in debating this stuff. I simply wanted to point one that it would be wise to show a SOUND horse before promoting the method. |
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| appellativo |
Maybe so. Can you recommend some good places to start? (articles, books...)
edit to add, I know how much you research and analyze, and I don't mean to be argumentative. I simply 'know what I know' (as complete, or incomplete as it is, as we all are in our knowledge...) and for sure there is stuff that I don't know. So don't take my 'passion' the wrong way...thanks for pointing out a new avenue of research for me, and I intend on taking advantage of it, if you will kindly point me in the right direction/share what you learned.... |
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| Leah |
No offense taken-I know my posts can be direct. I am slammed for time and am very frustrated at all the misinformation out there.
The horses suffer when someone follows a belief system without common sense. Here is an example...I learned something new yesterday. Thin soled horses-the sole will descend and flatten and possibly even go convex on loading. Now what the hell is THIS doing to the foot? The attachment of the laminae? How can you possible fix this barefoot? Without protection? Why would you not want to protect that horse NOW. I never knew this before and it has changed my thinking on how to best care for thin soled horses. I have now seen case studies of several horses that went for 2-3 shoe cycles in the Eponas and impression material and were able to comfortable for barefoot after. So to *me* knowing what I know now-what a small tradeoff! 8-12 weeks of comfort and a protection system that restores health and structure vs what could be months or years in a bare environment. In that DVD-the horse was what-16 months? beginning to end? I don't have any personal experience (yet) with the Eponas but am looking forward to using them and gathering photos and rads to see what I see. I just think it is so wonderful that there are so many new tools to help horses get healthy. It is not about bare vs shod-but creating an environment that allows the horse to heal... |
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| Leah |
Regarding correct biomechanics-no idea where to start, wish I could be more helpful. | ||||
| kristie |
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| appellativo |
You said, "How can you possible fix this barefoot? Without protection?"
I don't think anyone is asking for that. Who is asking for that? Certainly not Pete, in that video. Certainly not me. Sure maybe the eponas are great. I will surely check into it myself. You said, "It is not about bare vs shod-but creating an environment that allows the horse to heal..." I agree wholeheartedly. I'm just talking against people who put a rigid steel shoe on as a bandaid without really working to try to RESTORE healthy hoof. Which is historically what most people tend to do. Kristie said, "It is my understanding that you build sole after the hoofwall is connected." This is my understanding too, and why it can take MORE THAN a single hoof cycle to grow in perfect/ideally well attached hoofwall. Pete admits this in his video. When you have such severe detachment, you may take longer to grow it in as tight as possible, improving attachment with each hoof cycle. |
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| Leah |
Like I said Erin, I am not interested in debate.
If you find the horse sufficiently comfy-great! If you believe Pete has all the answers, great! I mean that. |
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| kristie |
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| appellativo |
It's not about debating, its about discussing. You said/implied that someone was recommending a lame horse go without needed sole protection. I was just trying to make sure you didn't think it was me, or Pete. No harm no foul.
Its not about me thinking any one person has all the answers. As I stated, I am certainly up for good information from any source, and I hope you will share that information about long term pain, cortisol, etc. Is there a place I can get started learning about that (please?) |
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| Leah |
I really don't know of a place-I get most of my information from discussion with several different people-we just share ideas and piece things together. | ||||
| appellativo |
How frustrating, I guess I am on my own That's ok I'll get it sorted out. Thanks for tipping me off on the epona shoes. I will share this with my friend and her vet who is not having any success in aluminum shoes with her laminitic mare.
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| appellativo |
I went on epona shoe website and their article on using them on laminitic horses seemed to imply that the horse would be in the shoes for the rest of its life. I called the company to ask if they were recommending or aware that their shoes might be used to rehab horses back to a barefooted state. They said that was never their intention originally, but that probably they were being used that way. I wonder where I might find more information, that you seem to be aware of Leah, to how these shoes can be used to help my friend's laminitic horse. Any help is appreciated. I know you don't owe it to anybody to share but I am sure eager to have the knowledge you seem to have access to. | ||||
| carefreegirl |
I believe Leah already posted a thread a while back on her mentors/people she has learned from, also she has a list of sources on her website you could probably look at those appellativo.  I know I have looked at those sources and want to learn more from some of those sources just don't have the finances right now to do so.
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| Leah |
If you want to learn more about Eponas, ask Riding All Day-she uses them.
There is also a list of farriers certified to use them on the Epona site-you can also contact any of them. I still have no first hand experience with them. I will very soon though.
So I really don't feel I have the experience to really 'promote' them. The methodology just makes sense the more I learn. I have never attended a workshop-so anything I would share would be from trimmers that use them-so second hand information. I would hate to get something wrong and misrepresent the information. Regarding cortisol-a simple google search will keep you busy for hours...from there you can connect the dots
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| appellativo |
great, thanks! google search on eponas have filled my day so far!
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| Hank |
I'm hoping I can figure out how to post an unfinished article I started on long term pain. I wrote it about 5 years ago, and I have NOT changed my mind about any of these things. It should help some of you that are "on the fence" about the Epona shoes. I have tried them on my own horse, who was not sound after a 10 year "transition" and he is finally sound everyday. You MUST break the cycle of pain.......
Hyperpathia- A painful syndrome, characterized by increased reaction to a stimulus, especially a repetitive stimulus, as well as an increased threshold. The pain is often explosive in character. Allodynia- Pain due to a stimulus that does not normally provoke pain. The original response to a stimulus was not pain, but the present response is. (From pain definitions- cpmission.com) Only very recently did I find words to describe what I have been seeing in laminitic horses since I first began trimming in late 1998. These are the horses that are sore no matter how little or much you trim off. |
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| Hank |
And here is the rest.........I figured out how to post the whole thing........
Hyperpathia- A painful syndrome, characterized by increased reaction to a stimulus, especially a repetitive stimulus, as well as an increased threshold. The pain is often explosive in character. Allodynia- Pain due to a stimulus that does not normally provoke pain. The original response to a stimulus was not pain, but the present response is. (From pain definitions- cpmission.com) Only very recently did I find words to describe what I have been seeing in laminitic horses since I first began trimming in late 1998. These are the horses that are sore no matter how little or much you trim off. They are sore with little movement or much movement, in boots or not. Some of the chronics will have good days, fooling you into thinking you have finally found something that has made a difference, only to crash a day or a week later. Diet helps only if it controls the laminitic episodes, and now that we know that hyperinsulinemia can cause laminitis, we have to conclude that humans are not necessarily in control of whether their horse is laminitic or not. Metabolism is the controlling factor, and beyond the scope of diet, exercise, trimming and supplements. Not to say that all of those factors will not affect metabolism, they are not capable of permanently changing it. If one or all of those measures works to relieve your particular horse’s laminitic episodes, great, but don’t think you are going to be able to use the same protocol to fix all of them. I believe that ongoing low grade laminitic attacks will cause hyperpathia. The horse may have wonderful looking, perfectly trimmed hooves and still be sore on any surface more challenging than a rubber mat. He may be sore right after a trim, even if you only took two strokes with the fine side of the rasp. He’ll go great in boots, until you get to pebbles scattered on pavement, the he is “walking on eggs”. By contrast, this same horse may have wonderful days, weeks or even months, and these will always seem to be about the same time of year. These are the horses that desperately need to be sorted out and get the laminitis stopped, because if it continues, I believe you will have a horse with allodynia- and I do not believe at that point it is reversible. Allodynia horses are sore everywhere on every surface. No boots relieve them, trimming is agony. Movement just makes them worse. They are body sore and heat or cold can make them worse. These horses lay down a lot and will even choose to eat lying down. Sounds a lot like an acute founder, right? Yes, except this horse is on the finest supplements, tested hay, has been trimmed to perfection, been forced to exercise, has the best padded boots—BUT NONE OF THIS HAS MADE –ANY- DIFFERENCE! Horses can have mild to moderate laminitis and exhibit none-to-mild symptoms and still be sound, if they have neither of these afflictions. I believe it is the recurrence that causes such severe reactions. A healthy horse with no laminitis in his past can get into the feed room, eat 20lbs of grain, a bag of apples, have moderate laminitis for 3 days and you might never know. If he has an acute reaction, you can be sure he’s had recurring low level bouts of laminitis all along. The main thing to be doing with these horses is to try and stop the laminitis. Pain relievers actually seem to make to problems worse, as they do toxify the horse, which we know causes laminitis. You have to be careful with worming and vaccines, as they can cause a laminitic reaction. Hay needs to be low sugar, and it goes without saying that sweet feed is out. Some horses tolerate grass; others do not, so take it seriously when your horse is sore after pasture turnout. (Water+sun+grass+horse—for some reason this combination seems to = lame horse. Remove any one of the equation and the horses do much better. Water in this case is dew, rain followed by bright sun, irrigation, etc.) |
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| Leah |
Just remember-these are not a miracle cure...the trim and placement are important to success.
It is the methodology that is more important to understand. The site and the Epona Institue site have several articles that are interesting to read... It is about supporting the caudal aspect of a weak foot-something that is certainly achieved with boots and pads-but 24/7 use of boots and pads for 2-3 months is...well...gross. There are functional issues that *I* have with boots-PITA. Casts with impression material can achieve similar 'support' but traction is a bear and they wear to fast when used for riding. So it is not that the Epona shoe will magically make your horse healthy...all of this 'stuff' works together-not what to use when is just as important as knowing what to trim when. I know the site lists users of the shoes and those that have attended the workshops-I don't know if there is the same benefit to someone that does not understand placement, etc But like I said, I am really not experienced in this area...Riding All Day is. They are something that have caught my eye so I am digging deeper to learn more. |
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| Leah |
A-HA! Hank posted while I did!
There you have it! Another Epona shoe user that can be FAR more helpful than I can!!! Thank you so much Hank for posting your information!!! |
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| Kim Cassidy |
Erin: Do a search on issues with Type I and II Diabetes. Put in circulation and extremeties (leave out equine). Here is one that came up for me in the top 5 links http://www.diabetes.org/living-wi...lications/foot-complications.html Also as Leah has said, do a search on Insulin Receptors, Cortisol, Stress and see what you find. I don't have the links to hand, but in a nut shell, here it is. The cells all have a special key lock in them. Insulin has the key to open these cells and go in to do their job. Stress releases cortisol, which closes /changes the special key locks. Insulin is released but can't get into the cells (the lock has been changed). The body has to stick it somewhere and it in some horses it goes into the neck, fat pads in various areas. Another form of damage happens in the liver you will have to search on that and probably Dr. Chris Pollitt. I tried to attach a document titled Nourian et al (2009) Equine laminitis ultrastructural lesions HI But I can't get it to upload, since it is a PDF. PM me your email addy and I'll mail it to you if you are interested. |
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| Kim Cassidy |
Go to www.epona-institute.org TONS Of articles and information with scientific data to back it up. Monique and John are working on a book about Biomechanics, Kinesology and the Equine... Yeah!
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| appellativo |
Hank, is your horse still wearing the shoes or did you use them to rehab the hoof to a healthy barefoot state? I'm just curious if the epona shoe has to be something which must be used forever---kind of like Leah said, boots and pads 24/7= gross ---or did you use it successfully to relieve pain and allow a thick concave sole to grow in and then the horse was rehabbed to the point where he was sound barefooted. I'm just not sure if I'm quite ready to abandon all hope of rehabbing a foundered horse back to barefoot without a continued reliance on added footwear...unless all avenues have been tried and no other option is available for the individual horse.
I forgot, is this along the lines of what I need to be looking at (of course this is human, but...) http://stress.about.com/od/stresshealth/a/cortisol.htm |
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| Kim Cassidy |
Erin:
As Leah has mentioned I am a big Epona user, apply"er" and have attended two clinics soon to be 3. At first coming from a barefoot only background, my goal was to use the Epona's on my personal horse and then in 4 - 5 months go back to barefoot. I was stunned, blown away, flabbergasted at the changes I got within a week. Body condition changed, attitude change, riding change, no more bucking blah blah blah. I wasn't even using the Epona's with all the protocol in place. Once I attended my first clinic, my application on my horses and my clients became even more productive. As the summer progressed, I realized that what I believed as a BUAer, barefooter only was not 100 accurate, nor informed. My horses feet looked as good as they could, for him. I also found that the nails weren't damaging, nor the glue and I could change his feet shape without a day of soreness! I sold all my long term unhealthy clients on the shoes and applied them. So far 4 have come back out of the shoes and haven't needed them YET. I believe come the summer, when these clients start riding again, they will want the shoes. My personal horse took a break from them, since I wasn't riding him. I started again last week and he immediately let me know, he wanted the shoes back on. It no longer matters to me if he is shod for the rest of his life or not. I can apply them at will, so if I want or he wants to give his foot a break I can. I listen to my horse, he is very open and tells me what he wants very clearly
I then started looking around at all these "sound" barefoot horses and I was horrified at how unsound they actually were. I'm a picky person, I want the horse to be extremely comfortable doing his/her job. I don't believe in a transitioning horse anymore, it's nonsense. Yes many horses have and have had poor shoe jobs. The sole (pun intended) reason I went bare in the first place. What I can do now, is come up to a horse that has poor hoof form, by my standards and use the Epona's to correct the feet, without the horse abscessing or being lame. Now of course there are exceptions, but I'm speaking averages. My rule is if your horse isn't sound within 3 trim/shoeing cycles he will more then likely need shoes to do his job. My friend and I came up with a way to determine if you can get by with hoof boots or not. Boots should be a Cover Your @ss type of thing. Your horse is sound doing it's job, but you have 4 boots in a cupboard somewhere. The boots are to cover your @SS when you go to a new place with footing you are unsure of. If you have to ride in boots every single time, month after month, year after year, your horse needs shoes. Your horse is NOT a barefoot horse. So those are my experiences and thoughts, not meant as offense to anyone. Erin - I like to use the Epona's or Equicasts for severe founders. I use them for as long as I need to. I don't go into it thinking "This horse has to be in shoes for the rest of his life." I don't go into it thinking "This horse will use the shoes a few cycles and then we must be bare again." If I think like that I am setting myself up for frustration. I walk up to the horse and say today I'm going to have the horse receive the best trim he can today and I'll do what I need to help him walk off sound. Each cycle is a starting point. My goal, my end result is to give the horse what it wants and needs, not what I want! If you need more help with the Epona's let me or Hank know we will do what we can. |
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| Leah |
I would also like to add I recently spoke with a trimmer/Epona user with 70 horses in her care.
90% are bare and 10% need Eponas (or some kind of hoof protection) to be able to do the job required of them Hank and I recently spoke about this 10% phenomenon and RAD gave you her experience on the '3 shoeing cycles to sound or not' There is a correlation here-I still firmly believe (as I am fairly sure hank and RAD do) that horses can be divided into 'groups'-and it is NOT dependent on trimmer failure. 1.Some horses are just sound barefoot-heck I have one that is sound no matter what trim I use! 2. Some need temporary help via 'protection' (again boots/pads, casts, Eponas or some other product that I don't eyt know about) to regain sufficient health structure and then are good to go bare. 3. Another group are the bare most of the time, using protection as a now and again boost during different times (heavier use, seasonal changes, metabolic changes connected to terrain/weather/season)-these horses may be well served by a combination of bare and protection as the horse tells you he requires. 4. Then the group that have simply too many issues to do what they do (be it stand and graze or be ridden) without 'help'-I actually feel this is the smallest and most unique group. Likely those that have been in the pain cycle for several years, chronic founders, severe limb deviations, injuries etc. I don't have any data to back this up-but I think most horses fall in group 2 or 3. Maybe RAD or Hank can add thoughts to my groupings. |
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| Leah |
I was JUST going to link this-these articles are very VERY informative-and again-this is not about the product but the REASONS why they developed and use this product. The articles are GREAT! Note to self-I need to update my website with this link! |
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| Leah |
I also want to add a thought.
I still do NOT believe it is correct to take a very unhealthy hoof and simply 'shoe it' and go pounding. Sometimes structures are so damaged that any impact will only further the damage-or transfer the impact from the now comfy hoof to other parts of the body. This is were having a trained team comes in handy to help evaluate a horse-farrier/trimmer/ vet whomever. There is a HUGE difference in boosting a horse's ability with CORRECT support-particulary support to the caudal aspect of the hoof-and simply hanging a horse from a perimeter fit steel shoe with no respect for what damage he may have. Kind of like people-I have a weak back-i can do all kinds of athletic activities with no damage-some even help strenghten my back. BUT some activities not only hurt me as I do them but can further the weakness. I think the same thing applies to hooves. Having no understanding of structure form and function and simply 'slapping on a shoe' is the equivalent of masking pain in some cases and not beneficial or kind at all. |
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| fairhavenranch |
Wow! You guys are great. This is so wonderful!
I think Mike hit it dead on about his history. That could be a problem. I'm licking and chewing....... Please carry on...... I'll be back....... Thank You!
(Please feel free to see my False Sole thread! )
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| Hank |
My horse was x rayed with 10mm of sole in Dec '08. He should have between 15 and 20 mm if I expect him to do his work bare in the desert. The first thing I tried was SoleGuard with a rim of SuperFast. He loved it. He was pain free for the first time I could remember, and not nearly as trained as I had thought he was.... Unfortunately, that package cost $60, did front hooves only and lasted 2 weeks. Then, as per vet's Rx, I tried Natural Balance aluminum shoes. Poor horse was M-I-S-E-R-A-B-L-E....so I pulled them off in just a few hours. His soles were so thin that he was prolapsing thru the shoe.... which is why I don't like a perimeter fit metal shoe all by itself. Next try was the NB shoes with a full pad. Horse became very happy again. During this time I started researching the Epona shoe, as I wanted to get away from all the nasties that get under a full pad. In Feb I nailed on the first Eponas. Horse was even better than the SoleGuard experiment. He wore Epona shoes until May 1. He was barefoot and completely sound on ANY terrain until Aug, when his retained sole fell out. If I had left him alone, he probably would have been fine, but noooooooo.....I wanted to go on a ride and thought he should wear boots, and that required some trimming, which combined with the boots inhibiting the mechanism of the bulbs(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLmEzqSpqeo), made him sore all over again. Horse has been Epona shod since Aug. He is moving so softly and foreward that I hesitate to remove them at this time, since there seems to be no damage or thrush and he is going 60+ miles per week over extremely abrasive terrain. I would have to x ray again before I would be comfortable leaving him bare. I will add that I did 2 Epona cycles on my step daughter's Cushing's pony. He is back to bare and better than I have ever known him. Very comfortable over the worst rocks. She is using Easycare Gloves for rides over 3 hours. Ruth A Hamilton |
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| Sunny |
This is a great discussion, thank you all for the continuing education!
Are any of you that are doing hoof care professionally and keeping up on the forefront of all this exciting information on hoof care, causes and treatments, noticing if it is certain breeds of horses that have more problems than others? Or IS it mostly caused by people’s efforts in “horse-keeping” or should I say lack thereof. What I’ve been wondering is, how much has poor breeding done to ruin the horse’s foot. The wild mustangs’ photos you see for the “ideal bare foot” was bred that way, survival of the fittest. Is it true that adopted Mustangs don’t get “these problems” that you are treating? Or do they get these same feet problems cropping up with improper care after a short time in the wrong hands too? How many of the horses that you are treating are because of a poor quality hoof from birth - genetics? Or, is it mostly or all cause by humans with improper hoof care, feed, exercise, shoeing too young, etc… I know, this is like closing the barn after the horse has left, but I’m just curious…. Are you seeing that it is mostly man-made in the barnyard, or is it the generations of NOT selecting primarily for good quality feet? |
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| appellativo |
From the people I've talked to (clinics and whatnot), it's not so much that we've bred the hoof out of the horse, but the way we manage them. wild mustangs come in from the range with perfect feet, and within a few weeks they begin to look much worse. It is my opinion based on the information I've attained thus far that in MOST cases, the basic physiology is in place at birth for the horse to have a healthy foot, but through lack of movement, lack of timely trimming, using shoes before age five (digital cushion and lateral cartilages robbed of the chance to fully develop by restricted movement, terrain and possibly being shod) and diet issues (not necessarily in that order), the domestic horse is given a much diminished chance of having an ideal hoof than if that same domestic bred horse ('s dam) escaped and the foal born in the wild.
In fact I recall hearing of an instance when some domestic horses with crappy feet were turned out for a couple years on vast rangeland, and when they came back in, most of their foot problems had vanished. |
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| appellativo |
I want to say thank you to Leah, Harry and RAD for your last few posts. I think that Leah's four categories are very realistic and make a lot of sense. I suppose that after bathing myself in 'barefoot is wonderful' for the last two years, and with my limited experience, I may have had a bit too idealistic expectation that 99% of horses can happily go barefoot. I think there is some wisdom in just addressing the foot cycle by cycle, seeking improvement in each cycle and avoiding seeing having to use a shoe or other device as 'failure.' I am encouraged by the flexible type shoes that are out now and will probably be way more open to their use. I will still advocate for every chance to improve the foot back to the most natural state it can achieve and advocate against the use of a quick symptom coverup using a nonflexible shoe. Y'all gave me lots to think about so thank you for expanding my horizons. | ||||
| Hank |
I would not say that certain breeds of horses have worse feet, the problem is the breeds of horses that are very thrifty (Pasos, Morgans, some QH, ponies, etc.) have a slow metabolism and developed on lots of work and not so much feed. Now they live on "Ye Old Country Buffet", stuffing themselves and do, at most, an hour of work per day.
Then comes the insulin resistance, which if it were 1760 and you needed to feed your horse grass for 8 hours per night and work him the rest of the time, would have been a GOOD thing. He would hold his weight and excercise tolerance on very little food. My horse is a Paso Fino and if he can go 8-10 miles 6 days a week, he can eat anything. I have experimented. Alfalfa, oats, sweet feed, ALL the big no-nos are fine if he is getting enough movement. Miss a day or two on that feed and sore feet will ensue. In fact, if he is at the upper end of the amount of riding *I* can tolerate--somewhere around 12 miles per day, 7 days per week, he actually *needs* alfalfa or oats to maintain his weight. I think the main problem with our horses is the same as society in general--too much food, too little excercise. Ruth Hamilton |
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| Hank |
The best advice on shoes came from John Richard Young's Book--_Schooling for Young Riders_--.written sometime in the 1960s. "If a horse has good feet, give him a chance to do his work barefoot. If he can, don't shoe. Don't keep your horse shod longer than necessary. To shoe a sound horse to stand in a stall most of the time is absurd." I have moved from believing 100% barefoot to the above advice. Esp now that we have alternatives to metal. Your "new attitude" will get you much further than thinking you are going to make all of them "gravel crunchers". Ruth Hamilton |
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| bit |
I've tried to do barefoot with Bitty for a long time, and I think it's time to get her into some shoes. I like the idea of the epona shoe, and like that it's flexable. Are these shoes more expensive? Loved watching this discussion, learned a lot, and did a lot of licking and chewing. Love this forum. | ||||
| oldmac_donald |
Just because I like throwing cats into tin kettles....
I'm about to get my mare shod. She's not being worked as she has rain scald (bad) and on Sunday she apparently slipped in the paddock and damaged her sacrum. Regardless of that... it's raining in meters at the moment (not mils!) and everywhere is wet and muddy and covered with water. Her feet are soft, and she's in gritty, sandy country. Checking my calendar, I noticed she was due for a trim now (last one NY day). I picked up her foot this morning, and OMG!! She has LESS hoof now then when I trimmed her. She looks like a short mustang foot, perfectly sculpted from the abrasive sand... and dead sore. Sorry, but I won't have my horse's feet being eaten off by the surrounds. Shoes going ON. Shame, because her frogs are the best I've ever seen, her heels are naturally worn low - best I've ever seen her feet, but WHERE is the wall?? Looks like someone attacked her with a file and made her walls completely passive. She's not happy at all. This has happened in the last couple of days of rain, and she's been fence-walking. She can't be ridden, and has now hurt herself (which will at least inhibit the fence walking!), and she's bored, poor thing. So I'm not shoeing her so I can ride her. We don't have plastic shoes, eponas, or NB shoes here. She'll have to make do with plain ol' horseshoes. Have to get pics! Cat is in the kettle.... release the hounds! |
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| Kim Cassidy |
The Epona's are way more expensive than regular shoes. I have to charge 250.00 for applying all 4 and even that is not enough. Takes me approximately 1.5 hours to shoe all 4 (includes pulling shoes, trimming, MY BACK :D) I put Epona impression material in each foot, along with the antibacterial granules. I then use the glue and the shoe. I breakdown the cost to this: $24 - $26 a pair of shoes so per foot Tube of glue 55 - 56 a tube (6 feet per tube) Tips are 1.10 one per foot Gun initial cost - 75.00 13 - shoe 10 - Glue 8 - IM 1.00 - granules 2.00 - nails 34.00 per foot x 4 Yesterday I went to shoe a horse and the owner didn't think to bring her horse inside. It was monsooning, we got 3" of rain between 1am and 2pm . Man was I pissed. Why didn't she bring him in???? Her barn isn't really a barn so while I had covering the floor was saturated as well. When I pulled the shoes, rain water would come out of the nail holes when he shifted his weight. I should have told her, I'll come back. But hindsight is 20/20. I wasted two applications of glue, I tried putting the shoe on and the foot was so wet it didn't set the first time. Ended up having to dump tons of shavings on the floor and have the horse stand on that, PLUS put towels under his feet. Still had a hind foot waste the glue. All money I don't collect
So next time, if it is raining hard, I'll ask for the horse to be inside for an hour or two or I'll reschedule. |
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| Leah |
This is another bill of goods that 'we' were sold that lacks common sense. Let me ask you this: Do humans have genetic differences? In other words do you know someone with strong nails? Weak nails? Does diet, pounding on the nails, etc make a difference? A little sometimes? Not always? Have you ever seen a dog with a genetic issue? Do some dogs get hip dysplasia? Others not? Or some prone to pancreatitis? Have you ever seen a horse born with ANY genetic issue? Crooked legs? Still born? I know you will anwer 100% yes to all those "Have you seen" Well what makes the feet immune? We have strong weak, different in every aspect of every living breathing creature-why not hooves? It makes sense...Just like all horses can not do all things athletically, not all hooves can do all things. So at that point you have choices-you can adjust what you ask of the horse-you can only do what he do without protection. I think that is a very fair solution-if you believe a horse should never have protection, and he is only pasture sound, then don't ride! No one would fault someone for choosing not to take a horse beyond his comfort zone. Not all people want to ride horses. OR give him protection-but the KIND of protection is key. And monitor his structures and health of those structures. To provide protection to ride, watching hooves deform and deteriorate is just as 'selfish' as asking a lame horse to work. Does that make sense? I think this is why so many trimmers are now no longer anti 'shoe'-there are products that actually safely protect and often improve a horse when used. To OM-you do what you need to do. If these products are not available in your country, you do what you can. I am sure there are ways to make steel shoes more 'supportive' through the use of impression materials and such. The other option is to contact one of the companies and see if they can get them to you. |
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| Leah |
The 'package' is more expensive compared to just nailing on a pair of steel shoes-but I don't know compared to a comparable set up-with sole/frog support, etc I just paid about $35 for a pair-but my horse has HUGE feet so my cost was a little more. Then you have glue, impression material, I am using casts, etc The prices of the materials are on the Epona site. I have not yet figured out my cost per set... |
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| Kim Cassidy |
I used to boldly state to anyone who asked that "ALL horses can go barefoot, ALL owners can not." I was quite obnoxious and righteous in my opinion too. I have seen eaten a lot of humble pie! Before I give my thoughts on this, I would suggest everyone go and read Brian Hampson and Dr. Pollitt's experiments with the Brumby's. www.wildhorseresearch.com. Pay special attention to this story http://www.wildhorseresearch.com/Documents/Newsletters/Jly%20-09.htm Christine was a horse they took from the lusher area and turned loose in the dry desert area. They had to rescue her because she became very foot sore and was not adapting. Another big name barefoot person who lives in a desert environment, here in the US made a bold statement. Bring me your horses, I'll turn them loose to live like the mustangs. They will be cured in not time. I believe it wasn't even a month before owners had to come and rescue them, bleeding feet, etc.
I think genetics do play a huge role in foot health. Look what humans have done to dogs. I love Boxers, I have had them since I was a child. In the beginning, they were not cancer factories, they didn't get Cardio Myopethy (spelling), etc. Now you have to be really careful who you get them from as they have bred heart issues and cancer into almost all the lines. TB's have been bred for speed speed speed, feet get left out of the equation. Monique Craig is the person who pointed out to me that thin skin and weak hooves go hand in hand. Think of the breeds with the thin skin or the horses you have with thin skin and then go look at their feet. Morgans, Paso's, pony's usually are thick skinned and thick walled. Then add in diet and exercise as Ruth pointed out and you get a mess
Humans totally suck at management of animals and environment. Maybe someday we will get it right, I like the methods of the native tribe in the movie Avatar
Anyhoo, I don't deny that I have pulled shoes on many many horses and watched their feet transform. Thin, weak, shelly walls, contracted frogs, jammed heel bulbs all have modified. Thick walls, strong feet, healthier frogs, healthier DC's. Was it the steel shoes or was it the trimming paradigm? I don't know. I'm just starting to experiment with steel to see if I lose the health that I achieved bare. I won't do it to my main horse, but will experiment with the rest that I have. What has blown me away is that I thought I had sound barefoot horses. Now that I've put the shoes on my horses and some of my riding friends, all of us are seeing that what are horses are even better. My horse doesn't buck anymore. My friends horse picks up his canter leads like butter now. All the horses lost weight in their necks and bodies, nothing changed but applying the Epona protocol. I'm not making any money promoting the shoes, I just want to help horses. Thanks for listening. I think this is the nicest barefoot/shod discussion I've EVER been involved in on the internet. I'm really enjoying being part of the discussion. |
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| Leah |
RAD-I was JUST thinking the same thing reagarding this thread-this IS the nicest hoof discussion I have ever seen on ANY forum!
ohhhhhhhhh....all horses can go barefoot, not all owners can.... ohhhhhhh I have used that line on more than one occasion. The hoof skin connection makes perfect sense. In my herd of 6 (4 adults and 2 babies), two of mine are very comfy on all but the roughest terrain-they both have very thick skin. The two who would be better served by 'hoof augmentation' are thin skinned. My 2 babies-the one most comfy is the thicker skin WB cross. The filly is thinner skin and tends to step around bigger rocks. Interesting! (I am guessing RAD will fall in love with the phrase hoof augmentation) |
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| appellativo |
Leah said, "So at that point you have choices-you can adjust what you ask of the horse-you can only do what he do without protection.
I think that is a very fair solution-if you believe a horse should never have protection, and he is only pasture sound, then don't ride! No one would fault someone for choosing not to take a horse beyond his comfort zone. Not all people want to ride horses. OR give him protection-but the KIND of protection is key. And monitor his structures and health of those structures. To provide protection to ride, watching hooves deform and deteriorate is just as 'selfish' as asking a lame horse to work." I am going to assume here you are not speaking of me here but venting in general, as I feel the same way you do. You guys are ahead of me on the hoof journey and certainly have more experience than me and I have taken to heart what you say. Maybe it just isn't possible for every horse to go au naturale. It was a nice dream but probably wishful thinking. I actually just found out last week, talking to an experienced trimmer in my area how abrasive mud can be in continually wet conditions (like it was here for the last two weeks) and I relate to what oldmacdonald posted. My horse didn't get sore but I think that's because she gets to come in twice a day for an hour to eat in her shaving stall and gets to dry out. Also she doesn't go out of her way to pace. Nobody's releasing the hounds lol! I'm pretty sure nobody here would fault you for doing something to make your horse more comfortable under the circumstances for which you have no control! Yes Leah that makes sense about the genetics. I am sure that to some degree that is true, but probably not to the large degree that people in the past have used the 'genetics' argument to continue on in their complete ignorance of the hoof and relying on a metal shoe because of their failure to educate themselves about hoof anatomy and function so they can get a few more years out of their horse before they get broke down. That's the thing that irritates me and that I'm speaking against. I'm not saying every horse is genetically perfect, but I AM saying that more horses could probably go better with proper management--and this could include diet and modern hoof augmentation-- than people think they can 'because they have bad genetics.' I know you can't mindread so I may be being a bit misunderstood to be one of the diehard barefoot fanatacists. I'm not QUITE that bad...I am teachable.....
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| jokersmama |
Man you guys all wait until I've got some awful tummy bug and can't sit very long at the computer to start throwing the good info out there!
I'm catching up on my reading and really enjoying myself. Thank you all for sharing your experiences and wisdom!! Don't you just love our little family forum!
About 6 years ago I tried some plastic horse shoe on my "navicular" TB cross. He went great in them, they weren't the Eponas (I'm not sure they were out then) but something else they were clear plastic. Found them! http://www.plastichorseshoes.com/ Only problem I had was the "farrier" had no idea what he was doing (and neither did I) and my horses walls quickly overgrew the edge of the plastic, it looked like his hoof swallowed them!
I will be looking into trying the Eponas on my Pistol boy. Thanks again everyone that has been so willing to share! |
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| oldmac_donald |
Ooooh, I can SO relate! I was a tru blu barefoot "nazi" (to use the internet slang term, no offense to any person intended at all) and if your horse wasn't barefoot, then you were just ignorant and lazy about improving the health of your horse's feet! EVERY horse can go barefoot, right...?
Well... apparently not. This is the first time I've ever seen this happen to my horse, where her feet have just worn off - she's booted on all four when I go out, so this is completely the environment she lives on. She was born and raised IN THIS AREA on worse country then this! At the other end of the horse - despite living here all her life, every year, the end of January spells two months of pain and misery for her from rain scald. Does not matter WHAT I feed, how balanced her diet is, where she is - coastal or inland, humidity or not - rugged, stabled... I can't beat it. I can only now assume she has always gotten it. She's always been bare foot. She's 12, I got her two and a half years ago. She was a trail riding horse. Perhaps, if I look at her feet like I am beginning to look at her skin... just because she's ALWAYS been bare, and has grown up in this area on a huge property - great "proper" start on those feet - has she ever been truly comfortable? Obviously time and environmental exposure have not allowed her to adjust to a point where she is not troubled by rain scald during the year, so is it possible her feet are the same? She has great feet, beautiful feet, eternally bare feet... still not enough for her! Even with the best care *I* can provide, and trust me she has run my bank balance dry before, trying to find the perfect cure for the scald, her body is built in a way that it needs help. I shudder to think that this is most likely the reason the trail folks got rid of her - imagine what she went through every year! I am only now beginning to see her feet may be little different. No matter how good and "natural" an environment I can provide for her (short of taking her back to the soft but thrush-inducing mountain pastures of my home, and retiring her), if I wish to see her completely sound and comfortable, I'm going to have to help her along. It may seem strange that I'm relating her feet with a fungal skin infection, however I always assumed that the scald was a sign of my lack of knowledge, or lack of care in an area, or mis-management. I don't think so - sure, when I didn't feed her enough minerals I'm betting she got a worse case (lack of copper and zinc in the diet), and when she lived at home I bet the humidity just opened her up like a hot butter knife. But the point is, she is built in such a way (with her pink skin and oh-so-sensitive coat) that no matter WHAT I do, she'll get scaldy every year. Maybe I could help her feet along a lot more with a lot more knowledge ... but right now, I'm just going to accept the idea that it's not about ME and MY wants, but what she needs. And I've seen so shod feet recently that made me sick, and was Oh So Happy that my girl's feet were beautiful. Bleh!! I'll get some pics of her - with her balding skin and little feet and injured sacral, she is quite a sad sack *bawls* |
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| appellativo |
are you talking about that cute horse in your avatar?
I'm sure you're doing the best you can. Just hang in there. |
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| appellativo |
What do you mean, neither you or your farrier knew anything? How quickly did the hoof overgrow the shoe? did you guys only try the once or did you try for a second cycle? More inpuuuuut....... (anybody seen the robot from Short Circuit say that?) | ||||
| Leah |
I just had an idea for people that can't shoe or don't want to shoe...
The trouble with boots/pads is you take the system away and the horse loses his support...also they get funky if left on long term. What about doing impression material with granules from Epona-that gives you support...holding the material on with a cast applied in a figure 8 pattern so the impression material is held in place. The problem with this is the casts wear through and you have ZERO traction. BUT what if you did the IM with a half cast (so not as thick)...then bought a Cavallo simple boot in a 1/2 size or size too big---actually you would buy the boot a little big and apply enough casting to fill the void. THEN you can boot for turnout or riding to get traction BUT you can pull the boots and STILL have the IM in place with the cast. That would provide 24/7 support AND allow breathing time-and get support during the breathing time. A PITA and not a forever solution BUT it is an option for people struggling to find a better solotion. Thoughts??? This would be for those horses that just need 2-3 'cycles' to get over the hump. We know casts can be left on for a few weeks. We LOVE the Impression Material with granules to keep the ick out. Again not a clean easy solution BUT a solution. I know those Cavallos will STAY put. When Milo abscessed I would wrap him with Magnapaste and vetwrap and he went out ALL night on my hills-rarely if ever lost a boot-and if he did, he still had his wrap in place. voila-easy owner applied alternative. Just tossing out other ideas |
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| appellativo |
That sounds pretty reasonable to me (but what do I know lol) 
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| jokersmama |
I love that movie! 
I was pretty new to horses just got them back in my life, I had them before but never really learned about hooves and just trusted this farrier that was taught by his grandpa that he knew what he was doing, he had lots of experience but no education if that makes sense. He said he could fix my "navicular" horse (I had never even heard that word) and said his heels were too short he applied steel shoes and went the whole route of saying "we need to stand this horse up" left his heels long and put in leather wedges in the heel. Joker was sound for about 6 months I think, then that protocol started failing, I started looking for alternatives and I found the plastic shoes. I think it was operator error, I ordered them and ordered the right size but then he cut them with the nippers  by the time 4 weeks went by he had over grown them, but actually I think they just got pushed inward from being cut to small for the hoof. Basically they were applied wrong because no one knew what they were doing.
That was the last straw for me and I retired my old boy to pasture. I was tired of paying for therapeutic shoeing costs and still not being able to ride. So we never did try again with the plastic shoes. |
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| jokersmama |
Leah, That's an interesting idea...hmmmmmmmm
What about the horses that are out 24/7 on soft pasture, do you think the cast material would hold up in those conditions well enough for them to be turned out w/o boots? or is it just too slippery even for grass turnout? |
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| Leah |
In my experience, casts were too slippery for any turnout-I do know others manage.
I have HILLS and Georgia red clay-so that could be the issue. |
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| creekwood |
mmmm, sorry, I have arabs with rock hard feet & thin skin. Guess it's one of the blanket statements things. Love this discussion as well
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| fairhavenranch |
My Paso Finos have extremely thick hide and rock hard perfect hooves.
My Thoroughbred has a little thicker than normal hide for her breed and better hooves than most in her breed although her toes grow abnormally fast. Her Appendix daughter has typical Thoroughbred thin skin and fair feet with occasional seperation and a lot of flare. My Appendix gelding has pretty thick hide for his breed and big flat feet with no concavity and no soles. PITA. 
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| bit |
Seems my trimmer can do the epona thing, and think I might give it a try, at least on the fronts for Bitty. May even have Gunner done on the fronts while he transitions to barefoot and see how he does. He's been in shoes since before he was two.
Leah, Bit needs 24/7 forever. Hoping epona's are her salvation. I'll let you guys know how it goes. |
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| Kim Cassidy |
Bit,
That is great news, if your trimmer needs/wants help or tips and tricks, let me know, I'll help out. |