| Archive for It's About The Horse The Free Forum for those Doing Parelli - and a whole lot More! "Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful." Xenophon (430-355 B.C.), |
| xenophon |
Founder Rehab QuestionDoes anyone know of a well documented case of a foundered horse with the coffin bone sticking out the bottom of the sole being rehabilitated?I so, where can I find this documentation? During a discussion about barefoot versus shoes, my vet was adamant that a horse suffering from founder this severe cannot be rehabilitated, ever, and must be put down to avoid any further excruiating pain. I have read that it is possible to rehabilitate such a horse and that it has been done. I believe I've even read a protocol somewhere for treating it, but that the odds are still against the horse. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Go to the Yahoo Cushings group and ask this question. There are a lot of people who have saved a number of horses with severe rotation. I have never heard of saving one this severe. I might have to agree with your vet.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/ |
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| Clarissa |
I think it is Pete Ramey who has a photographic history on is website of a horse with this problem being repaired & recuperated. | ||||||||
| Mandy'sMarty |
See the "Severe Founder with Sole Penetration" Case on the page at this link: www.naturalhoofcare.org/casestudies.htm .
See "Tin-Bear's Story" at this link: http://www.naturalhoofcare.org/tinbearsstory.htm See the "Miserably lame Quarter Horse. P3 is penetrating the sole, with extensive sub-solar abscessing" Case on the page at Pete Ramey's link: http://hoofrehab.com/rehabilitations1.htm In my opinion, it takes a combination of exceptional horse, exceptional owner/caretaker, and exceptional trimmer/farrier/practitioner to accomplish these results. However, we can all be the "exceptional" with correct protocol and willing participants. |
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| appellativo |
My first thought was get a different vet but my second thought is, educate your vet to the possibility of it being done. to see it can be healed and to fail to do so IMO is is closemindedness or laziness. I suppose that arguing to heal it could be interpreted by some as selfishness on the part of the human but I think that where remodeling (edit: I meant complete bone loss but used the wrong word) of the coffin bone has not occurred, it is to the benefit of the horse so that the horse can have a chance at a recovery and a longer happier life. | ||||||||
| Mandy'sMarty |
I think of 'remodeling' as the body's ability to repair and even rebuild damaged internal structures, including bone. With this perspective, I believe that when proper venous circulation is enabled to return to a foundered foot, that it is possible to 'remodel' P3. It is my understanding that the mechanical downward pressure under a descended or rotated P3 compresses the solar material and disrupts the venous circulation in the solar corium. Which disrupts the blood flow supporting the P3 bone. Which causes it to break down.
Change the mechanical downward force on P3, enable the foot to function as it is designed (w/proper trim protocol), wait for P3 and internal structures to reverse pathological descent and/or rotation relative to the hoof capsule, and give the horse's body the opportunity to repair and even 'remodel' itself. Including the repair of the corium and of the bone. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I think what Marty says here is definitely the truth. It takes a lot of dedication on several people's parts to save a horse in this condition. I would do some serious soul searching on if you want to tackle this. If you do, then go for it with a good vet and farrier (change both if need be). But, please don't fool yourself if the determination isn't there to do all that it takes to save the horse. Making a horse live in this kind of pain because we don't have the heart to put them down is more inhumane then biting the bullet and doing what is best for the horse. Even with all the research and treatments available, horses have to be put down with severe rotation every day. Barbaro was put down due to laminitis. Weigh your options carefully and do what is best for your horse. |
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| learningthedance |
I agree with what everyone has said. Although I am not a big fan of Strasser (especially in the wrong hands), she really has made a name for herself when it comes to healing horses with sever (penetrating) founder. Horses that no one else would touch. It can be done, but absolute dedication is needed on all levels and the horse has to have the desire to fight also. I really do believe you can tell when they want to live and when they have had enough. As long as the horse is willing to fight, then I think anything is possible. Once that fight is gone, I don't think any intervention can help that particular horse. Founder is a long and rocky road with many up's and downs. Just be ready for them, and listen to your horse. | ||||||||
| xenophon |
Thank you all very much. I do not have a horse with this condition but have been sharing others information on facebook about hooves and trimming that I thought was worth considering. One particular website I shared spoke quite authoritatively about founder and treatments for it, including rehab of a hoof as described. My vet saw this and posted some not very complimentary things about the information concluding by calling it "BS". She has never been insulting to me personally, and in fact has encouraged me to continually seek out more info. She is not opposed to barefoot trimming as long as the horses remain sound and the owner recognizes what she considers to be the performance limitations of a barefoot horse. It was in a private note to me that she said that when the coffin bone penetrates the sole, the pain is too severe and it would be cruel to try to fix the situation. "...ever" she added.
The examples some of you have shared, and the thoughts that others of you have shared have been helpful. If there are anymore to share I look forward to reading them. |
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| Mandy'sMarty |
It is my belief that the pain can be just as severe even before the coffin bone penetrates the sole. In my experience, each horse has its own capacity to tolerate pain...and acknowledge that it is in pain. Last year, just days before our first endurance ride of the season, I trailered my mare to Pete Ramey in order to have him fit her with Gloves to protect her barefeet during the race. I also wanted him to check her trim as I had not been satisfied with the results of her professional trim over the previous half year. She had just been trimmed days before by the same professional who had been trimming her for years. That same professional was not able to get any size Glove to fit her hooves properly. When Pete picked up Mandy's first foot to check it...he kneeled motionless staring at her sole for what seemed like an eternity. Finally, he looked up at me and pleaded with me to not run her in that race. Or any race. Or even ride her. What he said next caused me to go into shock from which it would take days for me to recover. He said the bulges on Mandy's front soles...what my trimmer kept telling me were merely 'toe callous'...were the alarming marks of lamellar wedge. Pete said that Mandy was getting ready to penetrate both front soles with her P3's. I later came to realize that Mandy had been in great pain. Extreme pain. And yet she was willing to carry me for a third year in that most difficult endurance ride. Doing so would have probably caused catastrophic damage to her feet. A good friend, a founder specialist based in Colorado, coached me on rehabilitating Mandy. She told me that Mandy exhibited a higher tolerance for pain than the hundreds of racehorses that she had known in her career. Mandy was not willing to show anyone, including me, her pain. Every horse is unique. |
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| whudson |
I think this is a wonderful statement. Though I have not had a horse this severe myself...I truly expect that Kitt might have been headed this way but did not quite "get"there. |
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| appellativo |
In the instances that I've heard it used (if my memory serves, which it could be in error!), the term remodeling is used to denote permanent damage (ie it is no longer there!) to the bone. If the bone is not there, so much pressure has been done to the venous structure that no bloodflow/nutrient is delivered to the area and thus the hoof cannot fully heal. That is what I mean by remodeling in my previous post.
mandy's marty, have you already told us about her recovery story? I'd like to hear that... |
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| Mandy'sMarty |
Check out "bone remodeling" and "Wolff's Law" via a Google or Bing search.
Here's one link that describes it nicely: www.teambone.com/chapters/basic/remodeling.html Regarding Mandy's Founder Recovery story: I've been so focused on helping her heal and recover that I haven't been able to write it. It's a remarkable story. It is now a happy one without an ending. She keeps getting better. My friend the founder specialist, who is also highly trained in veterinary medicine, can not explain Mandy's ability to recover and re-create herself. I believe that Mandy has been teaching me about energetic healing as a compelling alternative to allopathic medicine. But to answer your question: It's a story worth telling. And it will be told. |
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| appellativo |
Dang it I hate when I've been using a word wrong!
I very much look forward to mandy's recovery story! I hope I don't miss it when you post/write it! |
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| xenophon |
Last night I posed this question to the creator of the web site mentioned above and this was his response:
"I asked the most famous Swedish Vet. Prof. about sole penetration and he said ""everyone is talking about it but no one has ever seen it"". I'll be back with more info." Hmmm. And he spoke with such authority, too. |
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| Kim Cassidy |
http://www.ironfreehoof.com/severe-laminitis-case-study.html | ||||||||
| appellativo |
I love that story. I can't think of it now, but once I read a story similar to that where they nursed the little bay horse back to health, only to have someone let him on grass again and he sank again. He ended up being put down. It kills me when people don't properly manage a horse that obviously needs to stay off inappropriate foods! | ||||||||
| Mandy'sMarty |
http://www.hoofrehab.com/AuburnUvetschool.htm | ||||||||
| appellativo |
sssooooooo gooooood to know that some vets that have a clue are trying to get this work some more exposure!!!! | ||||||||
| RickB. |
A lamellar wedge only manifests in the solar view as a very disinterdigitated laminar connection. It does not manifest as a bluge or the like. So while Mr. Ramey may have been able to determine that solar prolapse rather than sole callus was present, he didn't do so by determining that the bulges on the sole were 'the alarming marks of lamellar wedge'. That your regular trimmer made such a faux pas (and here I'm trying to be kind) is unconscionable. Horses with sole penetration by p3 have indeed been successfully rehabbed. Usually the questions are , "Why?" and 'Was it truly worth it?' |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I leave the farrier part to Rick (not my expertise), but do have to agree with him in the question, "Was it worth it?"
I admit that my initial thought was that an owner who let his horse get this far into founder wasn't the type to do what was necessary to save it. I know this sound cruel, but I know people who have five lame horses, and stil insist on feeding grain. It takes a lot of work - like hand walking daily - and money - diets, hay analysis, drugs, supplements, specialty vets and farriers - to save a severely foundered horse. But the truth on this question is that I think about what the horse would have to go through to be saved. How much pain that horse is in and for how long. I don't think I could do that to my horse. |
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| Chablis |
Ditto. |
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| appellativo |
Rick said, "A lamellar wedge only manifests in the solar view as a very disinterdigitated laminar connection. It does not manifest as a bluge or the like. So while Mr. Ramey may have been able to determine that solar prolapse rather than sole callus was present, he didn't do so by determining that the bulges on the sole were 'the alarming marks of lamellar wedge'."
I too was thinking that lamellar wedge does not form a bulge and saw what I perceived to be an incongruency in the above statement. Perhaps it was a miscommunication/misunderstanding. Nonetheless, I am glad to hear that Mandy did not appear to be in severe pain/lameness and that she has seen improvements. I still am dying to see a chronology of photos and what was done. I just love rehab stories. I am a bit torn on the ones where the horse is suffering (for obvious reasons) but eventually attains health and soundness (for obvious reasons). |
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| Kim Cassidy |
Pete Ramey has renamed any toe flare as a Lamellar Wedge. Looking at these few photos he pronounced Lamellar Wedge.
Horse is sound as can be, driven on pavement, in these photos hadn't been trimmed in over 6 months. Thats when we started parting ways (Pete and I). HERE is a Lamellar Wedge and this horse was put down on a week ago. Is it worth it, a very personal decision to make. Sometimes I see horses put down too soon, some way way way too late. I certainly wouldn't drag a horse home to try and fix that. But 8 years ago I was cocky enough to do so, life has a way of wearing you down  Living with and trying to fix a metabolic horse is NO picnic (I speak from way too much experience).
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| appellativo |
Kim in your opinion/education, what would be the difference between the top two photos, and the third photo? I mean, I SEE the difference, but clearly one horse is lame, and the other sound. The reason I ask, is that my horse's foot in the front feet have looked a bit similar to the top horse. they have improved (meaning less flat area at the toe. Looking at recent pics, it does not appear to be there anymore, but I will always remember it was there.) I would like to hear more about why one would or would not 'try to bring back the toe' on the top horse. Anything you can tell me is great.
from what I can see, the top horse has some concavity, and the bottom horse is flat. is the first horse further along in the process than the second, able to recover for whatever reason? What is the reason/physiology for the appearance of the top horse's foot? |
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| Kim Cassidy |
I don't think the top horse (Tango) has anything wrong with him. He is a 4 year old Morgan. Should he be off 24/7 grass more than likely, but the owner will NEVER do it (and I guarantee you, later in life this horse will founder)
Nothing but a diet change and a slight roll/bevel to the foot would help the foot grow in tighter. The concavity is fabulous in this horse, the heels strong and the DC thick and firm. But he lives in the same terrain Finn and my others did, which is wet wet and more wet. This photo was taken in March. Can you see how tight the WL is? I'm not seeing how this is a LW, just because there is some toe flare or because the front of the toe is not on top of the frog. I was using this foot (in my PR discussion) as a self trimming sound foot. I have to go so can't get more detailed now, let me know if I wasn't clear in my response. I'm rushing right now
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| Clarissa |
I'll be brutally honest here & say that if I was to rasp the whole of the sole of one of Sonny's front feet flat like this one demonstrating lammella wedge shown above has been rasped, the same pattern of marks would raise it's ugly face!  Of course that's why they say not to rasp the sole flat, ie not to unnecessarily remove sole height material. I assume it was done in this instance to investigate what was going on inside the hoof.
In anycase if you set about rasping off material from a sole you would sooner or later come to the live sole plane! re what PR decided was lamella wedge. Would that have been based on the amount of hoof in front of the tip of the frog? He says the length of frog should be aprox 2/3 total length of hoof. |
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| appellativo |
clarissa are you talking about the chestnut horse (pictured at bottom of Kim's post?) Perhaps it was not rasped flat but is simply flat because of internal problems (raised hoof capsule position on the bone)?
If you are in fact talking about the top two photos, she didn't rasp that flat. It was like that already (I know because my horse used to have that, and it WAS NOT because it was ever rasped!) :D |
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| RickB. |
How do you know the sole was rasped flat? And if by "the same pattern of marks" you mean the bruising that is apparent, then I suggest that this bruising patter is present whether the sole is rasped flat or not. And, if your horse has a similar pattern,seen or unseen, then I suggest that there is much wrong with your horse's feet and that you need a more well versed hoof care person involved in the case both from a trimming standpoint and from an overall management standpoint.
How do you know how much sole was or was not removed? Do any other areas of the sole, as presented, offer you any clues?
No kidding?
The only one who can adequately andser that question is Mr. Ramey himself. Personally, I think he's full of spucatum tauri. |
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| RickB. |
Well, if Ramey said it it must be so......  
My personal preference would be for the toe as well as the heels to be pulled back further but that's just me and the horse is sound as is.
For which event, I at least am thankful. 
I must confess that I still take on these kinds of cases. Win a few, lose a few, and some get rained out. |
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| Kim Cassidy |
The last horse was my guy Finnegan and I let him go a week ago today. I only rasped it flat to see what I could see. I did cut off his feet and started to take apart the RF, but I've been sick and did not have the strength or heart to keep going. I will tell you he had about 2+" of retained sole. When I got down to live sole it was as thin as my finger nail.
I tried for 9 years to fix him, he was an incredible teacher but he was done and as hard as it was I let him go. I look forward to taking his feet apart and analyzing from inside what I AGONIZED over for 9 years. Rick, I'm glad too, regarding the parting of ways between myself and the BUA, major mental relief
Those feet would look much better with regular trimming, alas, they reside in NY and I now am in Arizona. Clarissa, As I said in your thread and to second what Rick has said, if your horses feet resemble Finnegan's you are in way over your head. I think I told you this a year ago. You are NOT going to trim your way out of his lameness. Get help! |
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| appellativo |
Aw Kim I'm sorry about your horse.
When you are ready, you will learn much from studying his tootsies inside and out. I hope you share it here. |
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| Me n' Dakota |
Sole penetrationI don't know if anyone is still interested in this topic, but my horse was recently "diagnosed" with chronic laminitis, and like every horse owner, I have been researching every spare moment. My horse has been barefoot for almost 5 years now and then I noticed him being more "ouchy" than normal on gravel (he typically takes a false step every now and then which my barefoot trimmer/farrier (I actually trim myself but he checks my work every so often) attributed to thin soles). I was so panicked I jumped to worst case scenarios but found a great site with great documentation of a complete rehab from a sole penetration.Check it out: http://www.ironfreehoof.com/severe-laminitis-case-study.html Fortunately, my horse is looking pretty good and hopefully will be right as rain in a few months judging from recent radiographs and lots of hard work - I'm all for it!! |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
That's a good article and a good case study. I am dealing with laminitis in my Cushings mare now. Luckily her radiographs look NOTHING like Druid's. Poor horse! I can't imagine saving a horse like that. Most vets would recommend euthanasia.
One thing to always remember is that every horse is different. What works wonderfully on one horse doesn't help another at all. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I thought I'd bring this up to post this article on rehab. Lots of people go through this, so it is a good subject
http://www.horsechannel.com/horse...itis-recovery.aspx?cm_mmc=5207035 |