Frequency of trim, pet peeeeeve!

appellativo · Frequency of trim, pet peeeeeve!

I was out at my barn today, and one of the boarders just began to let me trim her horse (meaning the first trim I did on him was last month). It has been five and a half weeks, and her horse is due up for a trim. I haven't heard from her but saw her today. She had her friend with her, who is currently horseless, but apparently used to have horses.

so I go, "Hey Michelle, just let me know what evening you want me to trim your horse." and her friend goes, "oh, he doesn't need a trim, he can wait another two weeks." So I go over, and pick up the horse's hoof.

"He's got at least a centimeter of extra growth hanging off of here. He definitely needs a trim." And she goes, 'Nah, he can wait.' and I go, "Well, just because he's not chipping and cracking, doesn't mean you should wait till he is." Grrrr.

Then Michelle says, "Yeah, I need to get his teeth floated too." And her friend goes, "I used to have competition horses, and we never got their teeth done, unless something was really wrong with them." Then, without looking in the horse's mouth, "Your horse doesn't have parrot mouth or hooks or anything. You don't need to do it as often as the vet says."

So I go home, and here's the email I sent to Michelle.

Hi! I realize you probably haven't read my 'About my Trim' document that is on the bulletin board. I have attached it for your convenience. Please especially note my policy on trim frequency.

Lots of people go by the 'shoe/trim every 6-8 week' rule of thumb. That might be preferable for them because it costs less that way, and also because a shod hoof grows much more slowly than a barefoot hoof. But, my trim is about the horse, not what is convenient or cheap for the person. I like to trim when the horse needs it, which has to be decided on an individual basis, not on arbitrary 'rules of thumb' or 'convention' on the part of 'most people.' So please forgive me if I am blunt and say that based on your horse's hooves, he SHOULD be trimmed every four weeks. It has been five and a half weeks, and he has a whole centimeter of extra growth just hanging off his hoof. This means the rest of his foot (frog, sole) is not being allowed to carry its proper weight, and too much weight is on other parts (wall, bars). That is probably not very comfortable for him either. Just because I do a good job preparing the hoof wall to not chip or crack unduly between trims does not mean that his foot is not due for a trim. So please take all this into account and know I have your horse's best interest at heart. It is definitely not because I want to make more money by having you trim him more often. If that were the case, I'd charge $40 per trim! :D

Also, in the same line of thinking, it is my personal belief that a horse's teeth should be at least CHECKED yearly by a veterinarian or equine dentist. The reason being is the same that we do for ourselves...to catch small problems early, and to prevent small problems from becoming big ones that will result in pain and weight loss on the horse's part. Sure, you could just have the horse's teeth checked after something has gone wrong. But it would be neglectful, in my opinion, to make the horse suffer from a hook or ulcer or wave mouth for any length of time, who knows how long, until it got so bad that he began to quid or drop weight. Not to mention, problems chewing migrate to misalignment in the jaw, poll, neck, back, legs and hooves because the horse tries to overcompensate by holding his head funny, causing tenseness in the muscles and ligaments...you see where this is going.

I hope I've been helpful, not offensive in my outspokenness. I look forward to your call for the evening that you want me to trim Strider!

Anyways, that was my little rant for the evening!

angry4

barnelda

HA tell her I pay $65 EVERY 4 weeks!Per horse!!I wish I only paid $40!!!!!!!

People just don't know when they have it good!

thelmanelle

Man, I just change my farrier from every 6 weeks to every 5 weeks for all horses because of one horse. I'd love you as my farrier. I tip my farrier , btw. If the drafts are heavier, I just give him a bit more than he charges and he keeps coming back. Plus, my dressage horse gets him and the barn there has started giving him horses to trim or shoe.

He does nice work and is really trying to help the horse. We talk theories while he trims. It is very educational.

bit

Hey, I'm moving Kelsey here from Washington state and giving her free room and board for her horses so mine can be trimmed when they need it. Ok, and who wouldn't want Kelsey to play horsey with every day?
My horses get checked every fall by an equine dentist, and if there is even a hint of maybe they might need doing, we do them. My neighbor with 30 morgans in the pasture? They rarely get any attention, trimming or teeth. I tell ya, some humans shouldn't have horses.

Newfman

I just had a client bring her Vet in to shoot rads. on her horse for me (new client). The Vet (whom I'd never previously met) said to have me trim her horse, (now horses) every 4 weeks. Nothing like being on the same page. Oh, and I charge 40. More for drafts. Won't mess with an idiot horse. . .or owner for that matter.

appellativo

I charge $35 for any new clients (which I'm not really trying to get anymore lol), but since she's a boarder and I started charging everyone $25 when I started, that's just what I charge! I hate myself now, but is it kosher to raise the price??...... :D

Newfman

You want to be competitive in your market place. Everything else is going up. Are you worth it? I have had horses go to the $25 trimmer. Sad, but good bye.

whisperingwindfarms

Sometimes people's pocketbooks dictate how often they can get their horse's trimmed. Not ideal but true.

appellativo

That may be the case. I guess I should be a little more sensitive to that perspective....but, in this particular case, at $25 per trim, that's not as justifiable a reason....

Yes I do need to stay competitively priced.... esp, Newfman, after reading that diatribe on leatherworker.net about good ranch saddles! LOL

appellativo

ok y'all. I sent the email. I'm doing the next three trims for $25 (for the people at my barn) then raising my price to $35. I do too good a job and it's too hard of work not to.

The one client who I do five horses for and I really like (he lets me borrow his truck) I'm doing for the next six months at $30 per horse, then raising it to the full $35 per horse.

do people typically charge less for minis? they are harder, I think!! I vote full price for minis.

Newfman

Everyone in line there! Alrighty everyone! Campaign For Full Price Minies!!!! Let's hear it! cheers

Campaing

for

full price hello1

minies!

WooHoo!

I'm in.

thelmanelle

As the observer, I say full price for the minis and horses and extra on the drafts. And, if you desire and can tip them whether your horse is bad or not...especially in hot humid weather. They come on time every time or I get called if something has changed. I respect my farrier and he respects me and treats my horses well.

I have seen old school, new school and some in between. They deserve their pay as they work hot, hard hours with horses that sometimes other folks do not even touch...

I am grateful my guys and gals are nice to my farrier, vet and other folks.

whisperingwindfarms

I get charged double for the damn donkey . . .

Does that count?

Newfman

One of my vets was supposed to come out to do an annual on our horses a couple years back. She was late. No phone call. I had taken the day off work, and we were getting a little annoyed. We decided, look, anything can happen. You know that she could have arrived to a clients barn to find the horse much worse off than was described on the phone. that horse gets priority, and when you have your hands full, you aren't much in to makeing phone calls.

Eventually, (very eventually) we got a call from the office. She has to miss her appointment, as she was seriously injured when kicked by a horse. "Ain't that a kick in the head." I thought. Yup, as it turned out, it was. She is now blind in one eye. Anyone care to question how much she makes for working on a horse? Not enough.

This can happen to anyone. I won't work under a horse for $25 dollars. Besides, often times, horses on that kind of budget, have a tendancy to be less than cooperative. Especially since they were often "give away" horses to begin with.

Don't give yourself away. Build your buisness enough to pay for health and disability insurance. It would take a heck of a lot of horses at $25/trim.

whisperingwindfarms

I agree with Dennis. Charge more and work for less clients. I pay $30 a trim here but only because I think Willie likes me. He hates Radar (the feeling is mutual) which is why he charges double for him.

Newfman

Radar is just being an ass.

Good to see ya Erin,

Missed ya.

appellativo

LOL I love that he has the wherewithall to charge double for an animal he hates. I wish it weren't the case, but it's just such a bad feeling to be thinking, "Okay I am NOT being paid enough to deal with this."

I had to quit trimming one horse at our barn because he was a persistent foot jerker and dancer. After a year of trimming him I got fed up. The owner just wasn't willing to put in the training time to handle the issue. I tried all the little tricks I could (including groundwork!), feeding him hay from a haybag during trimming, not feeding, you name it... and I DEFINITELY got ripped off on trimming that horse. No more.

I trim for a grand total of seven horses, plus mine. So I definitely don't do it for a living. I don't want to! But I will charge the 'worth it' price from soon on out.

appellativo

oh and on the mini thing? They may be smaller, but they SURE aren't any easier (for me anyways!) In fact they're harder because you have to be a contortionist, get down on your hands and knees (ouch). Maybe I'm just doin' it wrong...But that's why I charge full price. It takes the same amount of time and effort. (well, almost! maybe it's a trade off. less to trim, harder to get at it.)

what do 'normal' trimmer charge for minis anyways? do you guys give a price break?

Chablis

Personally, as a customer not a trimmer, I am happy to pay more based on how well my horses behave (or not), and/or if there were a heavy breed, etc.

For the first time last Monday, I have allowed my trimmer (who has trimmed my horses hooves three times now & his wife is a friend of mine), to trim my two horses without me there (I got stuck at work & only arrived when he had almost finished). As we are in winter, with short days, this seems to work well for both of us.

Also, it enables my trimmer to fit my two horses in around his other work and he doesn't always need to arrange a time when I can leave work early - one of us calls the other (ie if I forget due to my current work load) and makes the arrangement. Win - Win.

I told him to charge me more for 'handling' the horses - one doesn't tie up and while I'm working on it there is huge baggage involved which my trimmer is aware of) but he is happy to trim them anyway & doesn't charge me extra.

Reckons they are well behaved - they like him and he likes them.

Occasionally he has to give my boy a reminder every now and then not to be a bugger.

I am happy with the way he handles them.

Both horses are quick to let people know they are not happy with them so I trust their judgement.

Another local trimmer charges based on how long it takes (he has an hourly rate) to trim their horses hooves, the rest (mine included) have a flat rate.

Good work deserves good pay. It's a heck of a lot easier for me to have someone else trim my horses hooves (and do a far better job) than it is for me to do it.

Oh and he is keeping an eye on my boy due to the infection/resection done and making sure no flare develops.

Edited - my horses are 15.3hh and 16.1hh TBs - never had a midget but figure it would be hard work as you have to kneel in order to trim their hooves? Oh and try to avoid their bellies with the rasp? Would it be fair, say, to charge the same for a midget as a foal? Or is it much harder trimming one or the other?

Hertha

oh and on the mini thing? They may be smaller, but they SURE aren't any easier (for me anyways!) In fact they're harder because you have to be a contortionist, get down on your hands and knees (ouch).

Would it work to pop the minis up on a big pedestal?

Also, could you charge more if the owner lets it go over 4 wks?
Make that a condition of your doing the work?

thelmanelle

Hertha,
That's up to the farrier. I personally already have a set rotation of 5 weeks. I use to go 6 weeks, but three require more frequent visits...we we decided on 5 weeks tow trimming ago.
That being said. If I had to do four weeks with them, my farrier would let me know. Most folks around here are 6-8 weekers. Dressage barn and me are definitely shorter spans.
The hooves seem to grow more in the summer, but money does dictate what one can do all the time.

I give my best care possible to all my critters and then, some...

appellativo

This is awesome....but unless you're, like, a mini breeder farm, I can't imagine buying one....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ9CefQE7rA

Newfman

Using a large flat table style belt sander, pick the mini up in your arms and loser him lightly onto the sander. Flip mini over to check your work. For fat minis, you can turn the speed down and use it as a treadmill.

whisperingwindfarms

WAY OT: Dennis - Where you been??? Missing you in the chat room. Email me at erin@erinelam.com when you're in chat.

appellativo

Hertha

Wow, that was one expensive pedestal

.

Would be a lot cheaper to just teach the ponies to clamber up on a nice big tractor tyre pedestal - I guess they'd need a couple of lower ones to climb up as in steps, or else a ramp to walk up.

Or maybe an electric treadmill like they have for dogs but with sandpaper on the surface.

sebocat

I can't beleive how little you guys all pay for trims. Last time I had someone do my 2, it was $120. (My back was out, I had no choice)

He did a great job, but both horses were barefoot, both had been done in the last 5 or 6 weeks, and both behaved like angels.

Oh well, I paid, I tipped, I thanked him, referred people to him, and continue to trim myself as my back allows.

As for full priced minis? I agree.

Should drafts cost more? YOU BET!! My draft kicks my butt!

Newfman

Drafts,
Oh yes, certainly more. Mine kick my butt as well. They are very good, but l-a-z-y! I don't tie or restrain my horses, including my drafts when i trim. We stand in the middle of the paddock and they have a halter and lead rope on but it just dangles. They are very good about giving their feet, but you have about 45 seconds to complete the trim, or they want it back. they put it down for 10 seconds, and "Here, you can have it back now.", for another 45 seconds. Kind of rough on the ol' sciatica.

I charge just enough to not have to do them. I love drafts, but not the back pain. If I do four good horses in the morning, I need a good lunch break before doing more in the afternoon. Drafts, wipe me out, and i can do only two. My chiropractor doesn't want me trimming any horses, especially drafts. I just can't help myself

gideon

OK I have a question, as a horse owner but not a trimmer: I realize it is my responsibility to make sure my horse stands still and politely lets the farrier do his/her work. What's the best way to achieve that? The farrier moves the foot outward to put it between his knees, and he also pulls the foot forward to rest on a stand to round off. What's the best way to teach my horses to tolerate this? How long should I expect a horse to tolerate having the foot held off the ground?

How much fidgeting is acceptable? I have a mare with thrush, and that makes a horse less willing to hold still, she always tries to take it back after about 10 seconds. I'm working on the thrush, but it'll take weeks yet. I also have a yearling filly who is just fidgety, and I try rubbing her face while the trim is going on, but I always feel bad when she gives the farrier a hard time.

I pick their feet nearly every day, so it's not like they never get asked to cooperate.

I've never had a farrier explain his/her expectations to me, nor give me tips on how to fulfill them. Thanks for any help.

thelmanelle

Gideon,
I am not a farrier, but I so respect mine. I read what is happening here. As a responsible owner, I know a young horse has to learn, so does the farrier. The older horses, I should have brought them along by now.

The only reason why one might be a problem is if they might have had previous owners who did not clean their hooves to prepare them for the farrier.

I think things like brushing the whole horse and picking up hooves are always a part of horsemanship. Then, they are relaxed and it becomes a gentleness.

Hope this is helpful, even if I am not a farrier. I want my farrier to like my horses and want to come back. I share the responsibility.

calatar

appellativo

In normal circumstances, (I've never timed it but I'm guessing) I like to hold the foot at least thirty seconds before the horse asks it back. If the horse 'asks' for the foot back, I'll get to a stopping point within a few seconds and give him a few seconds rest (ten or so), then ask for it back again. I also set the horse's feet up properly before I ever ask for the foot so the horse i smore likely to stand for a bit longer rather than needing to shift his weight or rebalance himself if I didn't set him up properly. (there's a good description of how to do this in petes book and jaime jackson's book and video.)

If a horse jerks his foot constantly away after only a few seconds, it's impossible to trim.

When I trim my horse, I make sure she's been well fed and turned out and isn't being asked to deal with any 'uncomfortable circumstances'. ie. environment is usual, other horses nearby, etc.

I have one I trim for that 'has' to be eating/distracted. I don't really care, as long as the horse is happy and I can get the job done.

when in doubt, ask your farrier/trimmer what he/she wants you to work on, and there's lots of videos on how to train horses to stand still on the videos rentable from giddyupflix (clinton anderson problem solving series. even if you hate him, there's tons to learn and you can adapt it more to your style)

RickB.

IMPAPO, absent pathology, there is no reason(but lots of excuses), for any horse not to stand quietly for the duration of the trim and/or shoeing.

ladycfp

I pay $35 per horse to our barefoot trimmer, and one of the horses is a mini. She comes every 5 weeks in the summer and sometimes every six weeks in the winter because they grow a little slower and sometimes weather makes it tough for her to get here. She drives an hour to get here so I also pay her $20 for a trip fee. My daughter is her helper when she trims a neighbor with unruly drafts. Last time she let her help do one of her horse's hooves on her own and she told me later, "I don't think I would want to do this for a living, it is HARD WORK." This from a strong, able seventeen year old who can outwork anyone. After ONE HOOF.

A good trimmer is worth whatever they charge, you ask me.

Chablis

Hertha

Most jerking of feet is due to fear, worry, anxiety on the part of the horse. A horse knows that if his feet are compromised, he can't run and could be a dead duck.

Remember he is trying to reconcile what you want with his instinctive need to be in charge of his feet. This can be quite a wrestle in a horse's mind.

Horse also very sensitive to how you are feeling. If you are tentative, he will think there is cause for worry. Important to do lots of leg rubbing and get yourself confident first. He will then read your confidence.

Click/treat works well for building confidence. Horse's mind is on earning the treat. Horse feels clever learning to pick up his foot. Gradually you ask it to be held up longer and longer. Be sure to educate yourself to basic clicker training first.

Could look up Alexandra Kurland on the net for excellent info.

My horse now picks up each foot for me and patiently waits until we are finished all of them before she gets her single treat. But we went thru a careful, lengthly program to get to this point.

PasoBaby_CarolU

RickB.

All things being equal, a trim is going to take ~15-20 minutes, a trim and reset 4 shoes ~45-60 minutes and a trim and 4 new shoes ~ 60-90 minutes, depending.
During that period of time, the horse is going to have plenty of opportunity to have all four feet on the ground, and any farrier worth his/her salt is going to feel it if the horse is uncomfortable and act accordingly.

Under those time constraints, I fail to see/understand why any horse, absent limb/hoof pathology cannot stand relaxed and quietly during the entire process.

Like I said, I hear lots of excused but very few reasons when Snookums, Sweet Pea, Honey, Baby, Punkin', etc ad naseum is acting badly for the farrier. If more people would spend less time on making excuses and more time on properly schooling/training their horse(s), all involved would be far ahead of the game.

PasoBaby_CarolU

gideon

Rick said:
"IMPAPO, absent pathology, there is no reason(but lots of excuses), for any horse not to stand quietly for the duration of the trim and/or shoeing."
Rick also said,
"Like I said, I hear lots of excused but very few reasons when Snookums, Sweet Pea, Honey, Baby, Punkin', etc ad naseum is acting badly for the farrier. If more people would spend less time on making excuses and more time on properly schooling/training their horse(s), all involved would be far ahead of the game. "

This is not helpful.
Please go back and re-read my original post, where I said that I know it's my job to train the horse to stand quietly, and where I asked folks here how to go about it. I did not actually make any excuses for my horses, as I recall. The reason I am posting on this topic and asking for help is to actually avoid comments from PF's who pass judgment without offering advice. Frankly, anyone can do that.

To those of you who have offered advice, thank you. I will work diligently on training my horses to be the perfect client's horses, which is what I strive for, knowing (as I said in my original post) that it is my job to do so.

At the risk of being unjustly accused of making excuses for my horse, my mare does have a major case of thrush which has probably been simmering for awhile. I have read (oh, and please DO feel free to correct me if I am wrong, anyone out there who has valuable knowledge to impart) that thrush is painful and that a horse with thrush will be resistant to having the foot lifted.

My farrier (a master farrier, trained in Europe) has just taken the time to show me how to thoroughly clean and treat the thrush, so this is something I can do to improve the situation. I certainly appreciate the fact that he has taken the time to teach me something that will make his job easier. A small investment of his time on client education will reap rewards for him and for my horse.

appellativo

Agreed. Please go back and edit/add to your post so that it has a more helpful tone and some advice on how to get the job done, Rick B.

(and before anybody gets their panties in a wad, that is not an attack; its a polite request along the lines of the rules for this forum. I always tell my kids when I hear from Suzy, "Mom he pushed me!" then the 'pusher' says, "No I didn't!" I say, "Well she thinks you did. Even if you didn't mean to, say you're sorry anyways, it's not that hard and it helps someone feel better.")

misstux

The best way to deal with someone like RickB is to ignore him.

RickB.

calatar

RickB.

gideon

Recent comments on this thread:
"misstux wrote:
The best way to deal with someone like RickB is to ignore him.
Rick B wrote:
"ewwwwwww! No that is mean hurtful and downright rude. I thought that kind of behavior was not allowed here??????"

Recent quote from Rick B on another thread:
"What ever happened to just ignoring someone you don't like? Apparently there are those who need to wear a larger size under garment to keep from getting all wadded up....."

Nuff said.

RickB.

It was a great observation. Was I wrong? Apparently not.

calatar

Ignoring someone you don't like because you don't agree with their opinion and saying "YOU SHOULD IGNORE SO AND SO" are two different thing IMO and the second violates the rules of this board as I understand them.

ladycfp

RickB.

RickB.

ladycfp

appellativo

lol.

rick said, "I don't now, nor have I ever apologized for something I haven't done. Nor would/did *I* ever teach my children to so do. Why? because IMO that would be immoral and unethical. Having said that, I understand that each of us has our own ethical and moral codes that guide our lives."

in the case of the kids, it can be the case (and in this case it was, as I witnessed it) that billy 'fell' on suzy and thus pushed her. HE didn't think he did, but she perceived that he did, so I asked that billy apologize. All it hurts is his Ego when he was asked to say sorry, and Ego is the #1 cause of self righteousness and war in this world. So whenever we can take it down, I think it is in everyone's actual best interest that we do.

And not to turn this into an Eckhart Tolle thread, the most 'conscious/present/aware' way to ignore someone is to actually ignore them without saying anything.

I'd love to have that ability but Carol made me a moderator so I 'get' to try to keep the peace. Nothing like being assigned the impossible argue

RickB.

Kim Cassidy

RickB.

gideon

Rick,
Thank you for your input. I will give each of your contributions the attention it deserves.

RickB.

RickB.

PasoBaby_CarolU

RickB.

PasoBaby_CarolU

I do drug one horse that farriers ruined with ropes. He WILL kick any farrier who doesn't take time to work with him, and since there is ONE of those and he lives in Tucson, the horse gets drugged. I actually have two others that I drug BECAUSE of farriers. They are fine with me doing their feet, but I am not a trimmer or farrier. They USED TO BE fine with farriers, and then farriers abused them. Now they do not trust farriers, and I can't say I blame them.

I do agree that it is the OWNER'S responsibility to train the horse to stand for a farrier. BUT, I also believe it is the farrier's job to do what is best for the horse, and if that means NOT lifting it's leg so high OR holding it in an uncomfortable position for a long time, THAT is what it means.

I like my farrier. After this conversation, I LOVE

him.

appellativo

That's a bummer.

I know as myself (I trim for a couple friends), I would not expect the horse's owner to pay for my medical bill. Horses and animals in general are unpredictable and if someone is going to put themselves in the same environment as a horse, they are, by their participation, responsible for their own body. They'd be wise to have adequate insurance, too. If someone were to try to charge a horse's owner for injuries inflicted, I hope they have something in writing from the horse's owner signed beforehand that the owner promises to pay for damages incurred by the 'participant.' All that said, if an owner did feel the desire to help pay for copays, damages, etc. I would not turn them down!!!

Heck maybe all those years I used a farrier, I should have had them sign something beforehand that I was not responsible for any injuries that might occur for that farrier 'on his job' involving my horse!

RickB.

Kim Cassidy

Good lord, why is Rick on moderation?

PasoBaby_CarolU

Kim Cassidy

Oh give me a break, I know Rick personally and it wasn't his delivery it was the message. Just like what happened with me and Newfman.

But it is your world and you get to run it, I knew that when I came here.

You all are missing an opportunity to have balanced discussions, but again, your choice, not mine.

Niek

Balanced discussions require more than just knowlegde. It requires atleast a certain amount of mutual respect of others in the discussion.

PasoBaby_CarolU

RickB.

RickB.

calatar

Well sadly I don't feel I can read the Farrier Forum anymore.

I must be missing something and Rick must have said nasty things in PM. scratch

Honestly if he did I could understand his frustration as the only thing I see that was negative and called someone out by name was directed at Rick. Not saying that it's right just I would be frustrated if I was him too.

Either way, it is no longer worth it to me to spend time on the Farrier Forum.

Carol, in the past you have asked if we should keep it, even did a poll. At the time I voted yes and now I would vote no. It seems most members that come to the Farrier Forum aren't looking for advice but for affirmation. I just don't see the point any more.

Niek

Niek

appellativo

I asked Rick to try to address gideon's concerns/perceptions. After re-reading the last couple pages, there isn't anything particularly objectionable about what Rick said; he did not actually accuse gideon of making excuses for her horse...perhaps gideon was a bit 'on the defensive.' However, I still hold that a more diplomatic approach would have been beneficial. I don't see where the harm would have been for Rick to say 'Gideon, I wasn't picking on you in particular. And here's the name of a good book or video on handling horses with foot issues...'

Anytime I step in, please realize my intention to make the situation better, not worse. I don't have some weird need to correct people, but since I was asked to moderate, I tried to assist a person's concerns. I expect that people will not always receive this role graciously and get mad at me periodically.

Anyways, I apologize for ruffling Rick's feathers, and thanks to calatar for helping me re-evaluate the situation. I hope we can all get along. I've appreciated this forum as a place where people really made an effort to get along with each other and let people have their viewpoints/opinions without having themselves criticized by others because of it, as long as they were not rude to other posters in the way that they said it.

calatar

I really appreciate that you read through it again.

It is so easy to read something the wrong way. If someone responds defensively we often think its because something offensive was said however this isn't always the case.

Thank you for taking the time to look over it; I realize it is often a thankless job.

RickB.

appellativo

Kim Cassidy

Mandy'sMarty

Gideon--I am not a farrier but here are a couple of things I've done to help horses become more comfortable giving and holding a foot off ground.

I bought a Hoofjack and have used it to teach my mare to rest a foot on the stand or in the cradle. I make a game out of it and reward Mandy when she cooperates.

Recently I was working with a friend's horse who had two sore front feet. Combination of laminitis and thrush. I was releasing her horse's elbow and needed his cooperation in standing on one front foot. Her gelding knows me and will do just about anything for me. This time he refused and I knew he was hurting. My friend produced a tile of interlocking cushioned floor mat (www.SoftTiles.com) and I placed it on the ground. We quickly taught him to stand on that cushioned mat and he then offered me his other foot. I think the mat tile was bought at WalMart.

As has been mentioned by others previously, a horse who is uncooperative in holding a foot off ground may be in pain. This was the case with my mare, who was never correctly diagnosed by various professional practitioners for years. Practitioners including farriers, barefoot trimmer, body worker, chiropractor/vet, her personal vet, and various vets who evaluated her before, during, and after sanctioned endurance rides.

My endurance mentor friend, who lives in California and had never seen Mandy 'in person', correctly identified Mandy's very sore hocks as the reason for her uncooperative behavior.

Chablis

Nice post MM.

Once again, this thread has shown exactly how hard it is to convey what one means in the written form.

Just a question for Rick - one of your posts mentioned something about sedating a horse. Did you mean a general sedation or completely knocking a horse out?

I only ask as a farrier recently did a smallish resection on one of my gelding's hooves and while my horse didn't want to stand still for either of them following the injection of two locales in his fetlock, the vet and farrier both said no to sedating him as he would lose his balance.

Fortunately the farrier was able to do the resection but the only other alternative was to completely knock my horse out and trim the hoof with him laying on his side. We tried a twitch and it did not work.

He does not behave this way with the normal trimmer but admittedly we also don't normally put needles in his leg.

The vet and I decided it would be a good idea for me to bring my horse to visit him when we are not doing any check-ups so that my gelding realises that it isn't always going to be a horrible experience for him.

Clarissa

At the bottom of page 4 Carol wrote the following:-

I'm going to disagree with this. I have watched several farriers TEACH horses to fight them. When the horse's leg is held too high in the back or out to the side, and the horse is trying to get out of pain, the farrier responds by lifting and holding it farther or higher. I prefer not to drug horses so farriers can abuse them, when the horse holds its leg up nicely if you don't hold it so high, or for a long period of time in an uncomfortable position AND if the farrier READS the horse right, that it is uncomfortable and not "fighting." I fire farriers who hurt my horses. Period.

I agree whole heartedly Carol. I am in the enviable(unenviable) position of having similar physical problems to many horses, so I know exactly what pain they would be in when made to stand a certain way.

ie if the back leg was picked up too fast/high/wide/long it would cause me particular discomfort. Raising the leg pivots/rotates the sacroiliac joint & stretches/pinches the sciatic nerve. Ask Nashama about how many horses have SI joint/hip/SN nerve/psoas muscle issues!

Thinking as a horse….if the farrier picked up my back leg inappropriately or for too long, it would cause me considerable pain immediately & ongoing & I would boot him/her into next week

If I did that regularly, what would happen to me then? Would I get twitched or laid down????

There would be similar issues with the front legs.

The other thing I would like to comment on is why a horse pulls it’s leg away when being rasped. Have you used a course nail file on your finger or toe nails? You can easily feel the vibrations & I have had them run up the bone of my toe & sort of tickle. Think how a horse would feel about that when first experiencing that sensation particularly if the hoof was rasped into the inner hoof part of the capsule (the paler horn). That part adjoins the live laminae & any vibrations would definitely be transferred up to that tissue.

When I begin teaching a foal to pick up it’s feet I do it during the imprinting phase starting at the end of the first 24hrs. The front feet end up being picked up to it’s knee height & the back feet eventually picked up so the hoof is just atop the pastern. During the next 2yrs I slowly increase the height the back legs are raised to, to my hip height as they grow taller & learn to have better balance. Until they can stand quietly on 3 legs I do their feet as low as I can manage by sitting on the ground with the hoof in my lap. Of course I understand most farriers would never think to sit on the ground to work on a hoof

I find if I ask for the leg to full height before they are at least 2yo they are likely to develop issues. Sonny refused to raise his back leg above pastern height before he was 5yo. He also has hip/SI/nerve issues.

Chablis

I like your post too, Clarissa.

Hertha

Thank you, MM, for getting back to Gideon's question.

Making the hoof stand a game is a super idea. The other day Boots almost put her own foot up on it.

So is the use of a soft mat for a horse with sore feet.

I think teaching the horse a pattern of which foot you lift when might be helpful too. They like to know what is going to happen before it happens.

If for some reason (usually unknown to me) Boots is super restless (sometimes she has to pee) I just go away and do something else for a while (major benefit of doing the feet oneself).

I also use a big old double bed electric blanket thing on the ground and trim feet on there (to keep them off the sand or dirt). When I bring that out, Boots knows it is trim time.

One day she kept pulling her front foot back so I just turned her loose and got her to 'go trot' with some energy.

It wasn't long before she hurried back to the electric blanket and stood on it

. Then we could proceed.

Also, I often make an effort to warm her up for a while, the thought being that if she has her muscles warmed up, it will be easier for her to stand on three legs.

And, teaching the horse to move one foot at a time and then using that skill to stand them nice and square before asking for any feet is very helpful.

gideon

It's been a bit of a rocky road this last day or so, but I have what I originally asked for, namely some good practical advice for solving my problem.

Thanks to each of you who offered suggestions. I now have a plan I can try and plenty of options if I hit a snag.

Cheers.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Gideon,

I also want to thank MM for his reply and getting this thread back on subject. THAT is why this forum exists, so people can ask questions and get help. Not everyone who offers advice, offers advice that will work with a particular horse, but usually there are enough options offered to find one that works with your particular horse.

In your case, you have a young filly. I think that your CHOICE of farriers right now is critical. You can work a young horse just fine, only to have an impatient farrier loose his temper or force the issue and mess up all your patient work. If your farrier is having problems, it might be best to suggest he come back a different day when he's more relaxed and has a little more time. I do find with youngsters that they are frequently better off with more frequent, but less hoof work at one time. So, instead of a 20 minute trim every two months, use a hasp on her once a week or so and make it a GOOD situation. Blue posted a link to an Australian trainer about making training a HAPPY time. Foot trimming is a good thing to make a happy time out of. Lots of rewards, lots of scratches, lots of happy. Parelli said to put a feeder of hay there for them and work on their feet.

I think young ones have short attention spans and it's a lot to ask them to do ONE thing for 20 minutes.

gideon

Good advice, Carol. My farrier is quick and good with the filly, but I can make it better for him.

Making the training fun for the filly is the approach I'll work on.

gideon

Marty,
The undiagnosed sore hocks on your mare is interesting. Perhaps no vet ever did a thorough lameness exam? Of course, if she had more than one problem, it would be easy to stop the exam once you'd found the first problem and assume that was it. Still, thoroughness is the mark of the true professional.
Glad you got her sorted.

RickB.

Mandy'sMarty

Chablis

The last sentence you wrote, Marty is so true. Horses will cooperate with us IN spite of pain.

What helps my two horses to hold up their legs, apart from what has already been suggested, is:

1) when I pick their legs up, if the tense, I rub their legs and a second later they relax and let me do what ever I want, and

2) if my gelding jerks his leg away, as I do not want to get in an argument that I"m most likely going to lose (he's very strong & I'm not), I let him have his leg back but immediately pick it up again.

I also try to make sure both horses are standing in a balanced manner whenever I pick their legs up or reposition them - this increases my chances of succeeding. They both now position themselves more readily.

I started with rubbing their legs all over with a CS and then friendly game by gently throwing the rope over their legs - as we are taught in level 1/2.

I then moved on and did/do lots of friendly game (sort of like the motion you use with two skipping ropes in school) up and down their legs with a 12 or 22ft line - I use rhythm and persist until they not only stand still but relax. I have another rope on the halter to discourage forward movement.

Further to this, I have to be really clear in what I am asking. Having taught both my horses to follow a feel on the rope - I have to clearly show that I want the leg UP and not for the horse to go backwards/forwards, etc. Not their fault they were confused, I wasn't clear enough in what I was asking.

Anyway, this my experience with my two horses.

Hertha

MM wrote

Chablis

appellativo

I don't do any of that stuff. I'm just naturally beautiful (not). I do bathe regularly though. Score one point for me.

greyhoundhorse

Hi! I've been working with a trimmer for the last 6 months.
When she first started on Aries, he was a bit unmannerly and kept pulling his legs away and refused to place his rear legs on the stand.
She spent over two hours on that first visit.
After coming every 4 weeks like clockwork, Aries has vastly improved. He allows her to place his feet on the stand now and stands quietly and patiently while she works. She spent about and hour and a half today. We began to discuss this and she said he can now comfortably stand on one back foot while the other is on the stand. As he has become more balanced, he has been able to stand in a single spot for a longer period of time.
We have also remarked, among other factors, that since he is feeling better in his feet and movement, he has been challenging others for the leadership spot in the pasture. It is all so interesting how it comes together. She says that her job is made easier too because I have him on a good diet and exercise him on a regular basis.
Anyway, I was just repeating some of the conversations that we had today.
I love having her come like clockwork.

Hertha

If this is the thread that had the comments from Rick the farrier, I just want to make one more point.

Horses not standing confidently for hoof care is only partly about balance and getting used to being on only three legs.

Most of the anxiety is emotional and psychological. That is what a good owner has to work through.

Since horses know that if their leg is compromised, death might not be for away, it is understandable that it is a high anxiety position and needs to be taught carefully and with understanding and sufficient time for the horse to decide it is okay.