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coveredbridgefarm

From the horse's perspective

Do you feel that horses have a natural connection to us as we have to them?

This is a question that Carolyn Resnick asked on her blog last month. I think it's a good one. For many humans, horses seem to provide a means toward inner growth and self realization as though those things are missing in our social programming. But is this natural connection reciprocal from the horse's perspective?

What do you think horses get from us other than food and shelter?  

Are we simply something that they have to tolerate or do they view their time spent with us as part of their natural growth in some way?

What do you think a horse's perspective of us really is? Do they view us as part of the natural world?  Or do they percieve us as unnatural?

Just asking. As usual, I have no answers, only questions .  

Larry
bit

Good question.  I dunno about all horses.  I know with mine, I think they like me.  We play, we go hedge apple shopping, we hang out and doze, and if they get worried, they usually head my way.  When we go out and graze, one of them is usually grazing right by my boots.  Good company is good company.  Horses are social animals, so if you are good company, horses embrace that.  I consider my horses some of my best friends.  It took time together, trust and kindness.  Isn't that true of any friendship?
PasoBaby_CarolU

Larry, I think it depends on the horse's experiences with humans.  If the horse is imprinted or is born into a barn situation with a good human, human's are part of the horse's life and herd.   My imprinted babies almost demand attention and 'glow' with it and positive reinforcement type training.  

I have a rescue gelding that was so traumatized in his foal life that he has never recovered from his fear of people, and being 1200 lbs and a full blown panic when he's afraid, he is a danger to others and to himself.  He has been stitched up five times.  

So, I think it depends on them and it depends on us.  If all we do is feed and water and ride, I'm sure the horse considers us a PITA most of the time.  If we spend a lot of UDT with them, I think they relate more to us as good herd members.
Malcolm

Goodquestion Larry.

Unlike humans, horses are animals that do not have the capacity to be reflexive. They do not have a self conception which is why they are better at just being than self-conscious humans. In their phenomenological world we are a part of their social life just as with other inter-species relationships. They have benefitted from us seeing them as a beast of burden rather than just a meal or else they would have been hunted to the edge of extinction as are many other species.

Now they are mostly luxuries and just part of our leisured pleasure and the size of the population is subject to the vagarities of the market.

The thing is that the relationship can be a better or worse deal for the horse depending on the human's view of that relationship. We can thank Parelli for spreading the word that the relationship must come first.

Malcolm

From Wiki:

This is an incomplete list of notable mutualistic symbiotic relationships, in which different species have a cooperative or mutually dependent relationship.
   Humans and cultivated plants
   Humans and domesticated animals
   Humans and intestinal bacteria
   Humans and the Greater Honeyguide bird (which may have a similar relationship with the Ratel or "honey badger")
   Vascular plants and fungi in mycorrhizae
   Flowering plants and pollinators such as bees and flies
   Leafcutter ants and the fungus they "farm" (note also the third mutualist: a bacterium that secretes a chemical that kills molds that would otherwise feed on the fungus "farmed" by the ants)
   Leafhopper and meat ant
   Acacia Ants (Pseudomyrmex ferruginea) with the Swollen Thorn Acacia Tree (Acacia cornigera)
   Legumes and rhizobia (nitrogen-fixing bacteria)
   Euprymna squid (family Sepiolidae) and bioluminescent bacteria (Vibrio fischeri)
   Anglerfish and bioluminescent bacteria
   Moray eels and cleaner shrimp or cleaner fish at cleaning stations
   Goby fish and shrimp
   Corals and Zooxanthella
   Sea anemones and clownfish, crabs or shrimps (the bright colours of clownfish attract predators; the anemone provides shelter for the clownfish)
   Deep-sea pompeii worms and thermophilic bacteria
   Ruminants such as cows and their intestinal bacteria and protists
   Termites and their intestinal bacteria and protists
   Egyptian Plovers and Nile crocodiles (not scientifically documented, likely purely mythical[1].)
   Oxpeckers and rhinoceroses
   Polydnavirus and parasitoid wasps
   Cycads and cyanobacteria
   Foraminifera and algae
   Grasses and endophytic fungi
   Sponges and algae
   Aphids and Buchnera bacteria[2]
   Azolla (water fern) and Anabaena (cyanobacteria)
   Ambrosia Beetles and fungi
   Sharks and remora- commensalism
   Fig trees and Amazon fruit bats
   Wombats and snails (mutualism)[citation needed]
   Lichen (mutualism)
   Mycorrhizzae and White Oak (mutualism)
   Mole salamanders and Oophila alga (mutualism)
   Squirrel and a tree (commensalism)
   Sea anemone and clownfish (mutualism)
   Mangrove Finches and Mangroves in the Galapagos
   Hawaiian Bobtail Squid and Vibrio fischeri
   Coyote and American Badger
   Simarouba amara: The small yellow flowers are thought to be pollinated by insects, the resulting fruits are dispersed by animals including monkeys, birds and fruit bats and the seeds are dispersed by leaf cutter ants.
   Olive baboon and African elephant
jackspark

I know what I get from them but I don't believe that they are getting or looking for the same type of comfort.  I believe they see me as the bearer of all things good..........  food, water, a warm blanket and a good scratch when needed.  I believe that given the opportunity to be free and on the move, with just the 4 of them........ they would take it, in a heartbeat, with nary a look back.  Can't say that I'd blame them
bit

Nancy, I gotta agree.  If they could all walk away safe and free, they would. Green pastures, clean water, a herd of four?  They'd go.  I think they'd pause and look back.  They do every morning.  I wish I could give that to them.  They have the next best thing.
PasoBaby_CarolU

Interesting.  I don't think many of mine would leave.  And some might leave, and then come right back.  

I have a friend who lives near Park City.  Her property boarders on the forest.  She sold a horse to a man on the other side of the mountain from her.   Three months later the horse found its way "home."   She noticed the mare was much thinner and her feet weren't good, none the less, she called the new owner and told him the horse was at her place.   He came and got the horse, along with a lecture and book on proper horse nutrition and care.  Two months later the mare came home again, looking much worse then before.   She rehomed the horse in another county.

Both times the horse had to cross through meadows and forests to get to her house, both times the horse made that choice over living "free."  

We've had a lot of problems with people turning their horses "free" with this economy.   The horses do not do well in the wild and frequently find their way back to civilization or to ranches or horsetrailers they find.   One Paint stallion ran and JUMPED in the Sheriff's trailer who went to rescue him.  

Horses aren't a 'dumb' as you think.

Last week's Nature was on the "domestication" of the dog, which they theorize wasn't really man domesticating the wolf to become a dog, but the 'smarter' wolves adapting to live with man.   A Russian experiment done with wild foxes, showed that in 10 years, the wild foxes became progressively more domesticated, to the point their appearance and coat colors changed to appeal to humans.  

It could well have been the same way with horses.  Horses that were less wily learned to adapt to live near people.   Those that did were probably used for milk originally.
coveredbridgefarm

Interesting points all. Let me try to rephrase the question somewhat.  

I can visualize a situation where the human reasons that he can ride these horses as long as he feeds and waters them while the horses may learn that if they allow humans to ride them, they will receive feed and water. That would be a purely physical existence.

But is there the possibility that there can be more than that going on?  We know that some people think horses are a spiritual experience, that they offer an opportunity to connect on more than just a physical level, that it's possible to connect on a deep and more subconscious level of communication with them. That is the perception of some people. If you think those people may be right, do you think the horse can naturally feel that way too?  Or is it always just a physically symbiotic relationship from their perspective: I do this, you feed me.

I think my horses would like to explore new horizons but I think that they would soon begin to search for the way back home, probably kind of like most of Carol's horses.

Larry
Hertha

I seem to have had this 'spiritual' yearning to be with horses since I sat on my first horse at age 6.  And I didn't grow up around horses.  I always had to seek them out and do a lot of planning to have access to them.

But then I think I had much the same feeling about all animals, which is why I had many pets and studied zoology and started my working career as a zookeeper.

I like rabbits in the same way as I like horses.  Maybe not being able to ride rabbits makes a difference???????????

Realistically, I believe that the spiritual dimension many people like to associate with horses is a figment of the human imagination (just like a lot of other things   ).

They are an escape from the hurly burly of the funny contrived lives most of us are forced to live.  Going out to 'work' your horse seems to be culturally acceptable.  What you do out there is between you and the horse.

Maybe having a horse is also a bit like having a secret invisible friend, as many children have at some point.  Sort of an alter ego.  We have a mutual secret language with our horses that can shut out the rest of the world.

A horse that feels 'at home', if released, may go exploring but will come home to where he knows his comforts are.  If his former place of residence did not meet his requirements of a 'home', then there would be no reason to come back if he has other choices.  He will explore options and go with the ones that meet his needs best.  Not different from what people do, IMHO.

Most people have heard of caged birds, who, if the cage door is left open, have no desire to leave.  Others leave and return.  Others leave and make a new life (or get eaten).

What do horses think of us?  I think the more we relate to them in ways which are understandable to horses, the more they see us as part of their in-group.
misstux

I have only had 4 horses in my life; didn't learn to ride until I was an adult.  Deuce (Thoroughbred RBE) and Dusty (Morgan LBE/I) were both very connected to me.  2 very different horses, but they both wanted to be with me.  I discovered natural horsemanship about halfway through my journey with Dusty.  When he died, he was hospitalized with what seemed to be mild colic for a week before he crashed, he was down when I got there.  Laying on his side wringing wet.  I am still upset they didn't call me sooner.  Truth is they didn't call me at all.  My morning update was late and I called them.  I got there as quick as I could; then entire time I kept telling him that I was coming.  The head doctor took me to his stall.  Dusty looked so small laying there.  When they let me go into the stall, Dusty got up and rested the front of his face against my stomach to say goodbye.  So yes, I do believe they get something from their relationship with us.  Dusty loved me.  I don't have what I had with Deuce  or Dusty yet with Strider, but I will.
Malcolm

The wild horses of Namibia store their summer dung in a midden and eat it in winter. Some winters they die of starvation unless saved by Dept of Conservation lucerne supplies which is accompanied by a round up and surrender to domestication of a number of them.

Even wild horses are impressed by our ability to make provision for winter. For them eating their own s- - -t and starvation are the alternatives and I think in those circumstances they'd see us gods dropping manna from heaven in the form of lucerne bales. So yes in their own earthy way, horses do have a spiritual connection to us .

Black Beauty was the first I think, but the most recent attempt to represent the horse's point of view has been Monty Roberts' book Shy Boy which is the story of a young mustang's surrender to domesticity without force, his release to the wild and subsequent choice to rejoin Monty. It is told in the horse's voice as a touching story for children.

Malcolm
coveredbridgefarm

Hertha wrote:
Quote:

Maybe having a horse is also a bit like having a secret invisible friend, as many children have at some point.
If you make horses out to be something they are not, then they do become kind of an imaginary friend, don't they?  On the other hand, just because you see something in horses that other people do not see does not necessarily make it imaginary. It's possible that you have an awareness that others do not have. So, perhaps
it comes down to awareness vs imagination, Which is it?


Just to give a better indication of Where CR is coming from, this is how she set those questions up(I hope this quote isn't a violation of internet ethic):

Quote:
In all of my years of being wildly attracted to horses, training them for show and having them serve me in some way; I used horses to always guide me in my approach in how to communicate with them through getting their approval as well as their performance.  It was always a spiritual journey for me.  From approaching horses this way, I discovered that horses liked where I was coming from and showed it through their willingness to be trained and to perform. When they didn’t, I knew my responsibility was to let them do what they wanted to do, which always led me on to some new awareness and growth in myself.  

I discovered that working with horses was boiling down to moral issues of leadership. And from that I noticed a universal code that kept coming up all the time while communicating with animals. I also discovered that in the human world, this code was the same. There is a way to communicate and lead that creates a connection and willingness in others.
I think she's talking about "spiritual" in terms of a deeper level of communication which, in turn, could lead to a higher level of awareness on her part. Notice that "deeper level of communication" seems to translate to an increasingly more honest level of communication. Or is that translation just my imagination?

Larry
jackspark

Do they return because they are looking for basic needs or for "other" things?  I can see that horses released might return home but I contend that they do it because the environment that they are released into is deficient.
PasoBaby_CarolU

jackspark wrote:
Do they return because they are looking for basic needs or for "other" things?  I can see that horses released might return home but I contend that they do it because the environment that they are released into is deficient.


A horse needs several things, in order - safety, water, food, shelter, and then comfort, reproduction, and for some, play.   As the Leader our horse knows, we may fit anywhere in that list and the horse will come home.  I think where we fit depends on the individual horse.  I have one horse who is too insecure (safety, first on the list) to leave home alone, even with an open gate.  

The gate is an interesting threshold.  I have the one horse who is afraid of what is outside that gate and won't go through it unless led, another who won't go through the gate because she isn't supposed to (RBI), three will confidently walk through the gate, and then 3 will actively push/pull/unlatch to open the gate and 'escape' with kicked heels and a squeal of delight (very naughty horses!  LOL).  Luckily those three are very food oriented and usually go no farther then the haystack.
Hertha

Larry wrote:

Quote:
I think she's talking about "spiritual" in terms of a deeper level of communication which, in turn, could lead to a higher level of awareness on her part. Notice that "deeper level of communication" seems to translate to an increasingly more honest level of communication. Or is that translation just my imagination?


Is this somehow similar to how people relate to their children?

Some parents see it as their job to cajole, push, dominate the child into the 'form' they believe to be the 'correct' one.

Other parents see the child as a gift and nurture it like a flower bud that will open and bloom in its own time as long as it is given good soil, light and water.  

If we can gain an insight into the essence of what 'being a horse' entails, then we can do more of the nurturing and less of the dominating.  I think being able to have a horse is a gift.
coveredbridgefarm

Hertha wrote:
Quote:
Is this somehow similar to how people relate to their children?

Some parents see it as their job to cajole, push, dominate the child into the 'form' they believe to be the 'correct' one.

Other parents see the child as a gift and nurture it like a flower bud that will open and bloom in its own time as long as it is given good soil, light and water.  

There must surely be a similarity there somewhere. We can force children and horses to fit a socially pre-determined mold or we can allow them to develop in a more natural way according to the programming they were born with. With horses, it seems quite likely that the more natural way is reflective of a deeper, more honest level of communication.  There are metaphysicists and psychologists who believe that human social programming is so powerful that it usually completely overwhelms the natural programming by a very early age(7 or so). How's that working for us?

Social reprogramming happens with horses also to a certain extent but at least the NH movement is a recognition that the natural way works better. The question is, as indicated in the opening post, do horses think/feel that we can be part of their natural world? References to stories like this one from Malcolm might suggest that perhaps they do, sometimes:

Quote:
Black Beauty was the first I think, but the most recent attempt to represent the horse's point of view has been Monty Roberts' book Shy Boy which is the story of a young mustang's surrender to domesticity without force, his release to the wild and subsequent choice to rejoin Monty. It is told in the horse's voice as a touching story for children.



Larry
Hertha

Larry wrote:
Quote:
do horses think/feel that we can be part of their natural world? References to stories like this one from Malcolm might suggest that perhaps they do, sometimes:


Yes.  When we insinuate ourselves into the life of any animal (including people), we become part of their world.  Not sure what you mean by 'natural' world. Just MHO of course

Interestingly, people have only managed to domesticate a very small number of large animals - pigs, sheep, cattle of various varieties, goats, donkeys, horses, camels, llamas/alpacas, dogs.

What they all have in common, is that they live in hierarchical groups (like people).  In such a grouping, it is possible for people to insert themselves into the hierarchy (especially via imprint training at birth) and take a position of leadership (or in many cases, rather mean dominance).

Europeans also raised bears but ended up usually eating them at a year old

When I worked in the Children's Zoo in Canada, we raised a large variety of orphaned wild animals.  They all imprinted to some extent.
coveredbridgefarm

Hertha wrote:
Quote:
Yes.  When we insinuate ourselves into the life of any animal (including people), we become part of their world.  Not sure what you mean by 'natural' world. Just MHO of course  
My use of the word "natural" was just a reference to the possibility(likelihood?) that animals, including man, are born with more than merely a blank slate that requires social programming in order to function. Maybe man would benefit by spending more time focusing on the innate qualities that all species, including man himself, bring with them and less time trying to control everything through social programming. It was just a thought.

It is an interesting observation you make that domestication has only worked on animals who live in hierarchical groups. That leads me to wonder what the limiting factor is, the innate needs of other animals, some of whom are not herd animals, or man's own lack of awareness into animal behavior, including possibly his own? We do not know what we do not know, but many people have discovered that learning to look at things from the animal's perspective is meaningful to them(the human). I think what is less clear is how meanignful it is to the horse. Hence the original question: Do you feel that horses have a natural connection to us as we have to them?

NH appears to connect with something in people that their social programming does not reach. With what does it connect in horses, if anything?

Larry
Malcolm

Interesting discussion you have started Larry. Am not sure if the domestication definition taken here is comprehensive enough. Of our pets cats are sometimes solitary species depending on their breed or species in the wild.

But some take domestication to be genetic manipulation by breeding and if you go back to the list above, some plants have been domesticated.

Am not sure of what this means when applied to humans but I guess it has to do with taming which is what some women are naively optimistic about men.

Malcolm[/img]
Mandy'sMarty

Perhaps the horse was so willing a facilitator in enabling humans to evolve and create civilization as we know it...in order to get back home to North America. It was the Europeans, particularly the Spanish, who first brought horses with them to conquer the New World.
Hertha

I don't see the distinction between animals and people.  We have all (as have plants and bacteria/viruses obviously) adapted in different ways to exploit the environments in which we find ourselves.  Some adaptations are more successful than others during any particular time in geological history.
Mandy'sMarty

Consider the premise of "The Botany of Desire. A Plant's-Eye View of the World", written by Michael Pollan.

The Botany of Desire examines our species’ role in nature and challenges the idea that people are the sole drivers of domestication. Pollan looks closely at our relationship with the apple, the tulip, marijuana, and the potato, and shows how each plant has evolved to gratify human desires and thus has enticed us to help them multiply. Just who, he asks, is domesticating whom? By chronicling the evolutionary advantages enjoyed by plants that develop qualities favored by people, Pollan leads the reader to consider how we stand in relation to our fellow species.

http://www.randomhouse.com/book/1...9780375760396/?view=teachersguide
Blue Flame

One of the best books I've ever read is "The Hidden Connections", by Fritjof Capra. The book takes us throught the characteristics that define life from the micro to the macro scale. In this excerpt below he describes how managers treat businesses/corporations as machines rather than social networks (thus really living systems) which ends up creating a disengaged workforce.

Just substitute "horse" for  the things the manager is trying to control - I think there are many parallels.

Quote:
We are dealing here with a crucial difference between a living system and a machine. A machine can be controlled; a living system, according to the systemic understanding of life, can only be disturbed. In other words, organizations cannot be controlled through direct  interventions, but they can be influenced by giving impulses rather than instructions. To change the conventional style of management requires a shift of perception that is anything but easy, but it also brings great rewards. Working with the processes inherent in living systems means that we do not need to spend a lot of energy to move an organization. There is no need to push, pull, or bully it to make it change. Force or energy are not the issue; the issue is meaning. Meaningful disturbances will get the organization's attention and will trigger structural changes.

Giving meaningful impulses rather than precise instructions may sound far too vague to managers used to striving for efficiency and predictable results, but it is well known that intelligent, alert people rarely carry out instructions exactly to the letter. They always modify and reinterpret them, ignore some parts and add others of their own making. Sometimes, it may be merely a change of emphasis, but people always respond with new versions of the original instructions.

This is often interpreted as resistance, or even sabotage, but it can be interpreted quite differently. Living systems always choose what to notice and how to respond. When people modify instructions, they respond creatively to a disturbance, because this is the essence of being alive. In their creative responses, the living networks within the organization generate and communicate meaning, asserting their freedom to continually re-create themselves. Even a passive, or passive aggressive, response is a way for people to display their creativity. Strict compliance can only be achieved at the expense of robbing people of their vitality and turning them into listless, disaffected robots. This consideration is especially important in today's knowledge-based organizations, in which loyalty, intelligence, and creativity are the highest assets.
http://www.breakthroughsunlimited.com/hidden-connections.pdf
Hertha

Great post, Blue Flame.  I love the idea of 'disturbances'      
coveredbridgefarm

I have to say that I really like the direction(s) this discussion is taking. Using the principle that man does not know what he does not know, I like the idea of exploring different points of view, some which may appear irrelevant to some people, in order to answer the original question regarding what horses think or feel about humans. I probably could just as well have entitled the thread, "What does man really know anyway?"  

What does man really know about this for sure?
Quote:
I don't see the distinction between animals and people.


And this:
Quote:
Pollan looks closely at our relationship with the apple, the tulip, marijuana, and the potato, and shows how each plant has evolved to gratify human desires and thus has enticed us to help them multiply. Just who, he asks, is domesticating whom?


And what if we substitute horses for orgainizations?
Quote:
Meaningful disturbances will get the organization's attention and will trigger structural changes.


And of course, as usual, we have to deal with the limitation of the language. Good point, Malcolm.
Quote:
Am not sure if the domestication definition taken here is comprehensive enough


I'm thinking of a time quite awhile ago when I lived in Southern California and I decided to begin riding my Appy mare up this mountain above Lake Elsinore. At first, the climb was gradual but the higher we climbed, the steeper it got. It soon reached a point where I felt like I needed to get off my horse in order to make it easier on her. And then we kept on climbing.

We eventually got to a place where I actually had to climb on my hands and knees to keep going up, but my mare followed. At some point I paused to rest and turned around to look back down the part of the mountain that we had just climbed. The area where we were resting was so steep that I wasn't sure we could safely get turned around and travel back down. While I was pondering exactly what I had gotten us into, I glanced at my horse. She was trembling a bit, to be sure, but I judged that it was from physical exertion and not from fear or intimidation which I must admit I was beginning to experience in the moment. She was looking straight up the mountain toward the top with obvious or apparent anticipation of reaching our goal. I have rarely felt more connected to a horse than I did at that time. I allowed her to choose the rest of the path to the top.

When we arrived at the top, we stood and looked over the lake and the valley from whence we started. I can remember wondering what that moment and that experience meant to her. She focused on the landscape down below so unwaveringly that I wondered what she was thinking, what she was feeling. Did she feel what I felt? Did she feel as connected to me as I felt connected to her at that moment? I have always been inclined to believe that she did. I suppose I could be wrong.  But not necessarily.    

I think this discussion about what the horse's perspective might be can be a bit like being on that steep slope on the mountainside to some people where it feels too hard or too intimidating to continue climbing up but the prospect of turning around and heading down back feels uncomfortable too. Imo, what we need to do is to find a way to allow the horse to show us the way to the top.

If only we, as mere humans, knew more.

Larry
Blue Flame

coveredbridgefarm wrote:
And what if we substitute horses for orgainizations?
Quote:
Meaningful disturbances will get the organization's attention and will trigger structural changes.

Larry


If I can expand on this a bit . . . the excerpt I posted above from Capra's book is part of a chapter all about "meaning". According to the author, one of the characteristics of life - or as he calls it sometimes 'self organising systems' - is that once conciousness and sentience arises, the search for meaning begins. So, what I'm getting at is that if a horse is a concious and sentient (self aware) form of life, then it will inherently search for the meaning of things. It will begin to categorise 'disturbances' into meaningful and not meaningful stimuli and thus choose which to ignore and which to respond to (no response can also be a response - passive aggressive). Much of the horsemanship stuff we read/learn/experience leads us to this conclusion as well . . . put principles to purpose . . . be effective etc.

Your story of your connection with the horse to the top of the mountain seems to me to be a unity of purpose - the 'why' of what you both did. I see the same underlying principle in Bit's recent posts of her experience working cattle. It seems that having a purpose that the horse can percieve is largely what makes our interactions with them 'meaningful' so far as they are concerned.

Here's a caveat though when trying to decipher the meaningfulness of something to a horse - if they are anything like us then they might further categorise meaningfulness like this . . .

Dangerous
Important
Pleasurable
Interesting
.
.
.
Of no consequence

It might be worthwhile giving some thought as to which one or more might be at play in any particular situation.

Another aspect of Capra's book that may or may not apply here is the link between language and abstract thought. Once living systems or beings have achieved conciousness, sentience and the thirst for meaning - language (communication between living beings) comes next as it arises out of shared meaning. When beings can communicate meaning to one another, then the foundation for abstract thought is laid (meaning thought in the context of a time past or future). We might see this in a horse as anticipation.
Clarissa

Well I had this post written up in my word doc ready to post 2 days ago but the thread had wandered away into different territory.

Anyway here it is & it shows I have no quarms about the fact that my horses would shoot through asap!  


If I let my horses loose to go where ever, whenever (& the world allowed it!) they would eventually wander away & only check back when they were too lazy to find good pickings for themselves. If they happened upon other horses that were loose they would form a herd that wouldn’t necessarily include me.  They would be glad to see me if I found them because I can perform grooming tasks that they can't do for themselvs like remove ticks & get that certain itchy spot. But they would eventually only include me & my place when their usual cycle of grazing found them back at my place.

I am sure the wider world would hold more interest than I do in the end. The treats would have to be coming thick, fast & continuously for them to remain nearby.

Afterall horses are wild creatures at heart.

coveredbridgefarm

Clarissa, would you say that man might consider getting used to the idea that he may have relatively little innate value from the horse's perspective(now there's a blow to our ego), but, at the same time, in the moment, the horse may value man highly.  And that might involve more than simply being a food source.  Could it include shared experiences as well such as my trip up the mountainside?  I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. Just trying to clarify your point.

Sandy wrote:
Quote:
Your story of your connection with the horse to the top of the mountain seems to me to be a unity of purpose - the 'why' of what you both did. I see the same underlying principle in Bit's recent posts of her experience working cattle with Eclipse. It seems that having a purpose that the horse can percieve is largely what makes our interactions with them 'meaningful' so far as they are concerned.

I think that may be a key point. Horses may be very purpose-driven. Much of what they naturally do is purposeful but most of what we ask them to do is purposeless(to them). Man even has the ability to make something that is purposeful to become purposeless. Case in point, the Parelli 7 games. They are purposeful as we prove to horses that we have some understanding of their channels of communication. But they become purposeless when we practice them incessantly. Man is so adept at taking things out of context.    

Sandy wrote:
Quote:
Another aspect of Capra's book that may or may not apply here is the link between language and abstract thought. Once living systems or beings have achieved conciousness, sentience and the thirst for meaning - language (communication between living beings) comes next as it arises out of shared meaning. When beings can communicate meaning to one another, then the foundation for abstract thought is laid (meaning thought in the context of a time past or future). We might see this in a horse as anticipation.
I guess I tend to take language as a step backwards in communication because it is so often inadequate. I'm guessing that there have been people reading this thread who have hesitated to respond because they can't find the right words to express themselves. In that sense, the language becomes a distraction. It can become a barrier to the expression of an abstract thought.  I have a theory that people and horses are alike in that many of their abstract thoughts often occur undetected by those people who communicate solely in the written and spoken language. That the reliance on the language has caused man to become increasingly more unaware of the abstract thoughts of others and his level of consciousness has actually diminished. In effect, the language, that very thing that may be viewed as having the ability to increase the sentience of our species, may have actually had just the opposite effect.

Well, it's just a theory. No need to call the guys in the straightjackets.  

But it is one of the reasons why I am a believer in people spending time alone with their horses. Go climb a mountain with them. Go camping with your horse. Learn to communicate with a species on their level of consciousness for a change. You might be surprised at what you learn.

Larry
whisperingwindfarms

We are all - all beings - the collective consciousness so it matters not whether one's soul is in human, animal or plant form in this physical life time.

That said, my pony is not connected to any human for any reason other than food, shelter and medical care.  The other 3 are in varying degrees.  As a matter of fact, I think I was married to Bucky in a former lifetime.
Blue Flame

Michelle Dennis came to mind over the last couple of posts - specifically her philosophy of working with horses who 'volunteer' to participate.

http://web.firehorseinspirations....ehorse_Inspirations/About_Me.html
PasoBaby_CarolU

What an interesting site Sandy.  Too bad they don't have Paso Finos in Australia (there is a farm in New Zealand though), I think she would get along great with the breed.  They really do WANT to interact with people, and the more you do with them, the more they want to do with you.   There are some aloof ones of course, but I think those are the exception.

I like her "rules."  I don't have any rules here - other then "you don't stand on my feet, put your face in my space, or any of my flesh between your teeth."  LOL

Larry I think you'd like Paso Finos too.  One thing I've found riding them is that they seem to enjoy the adventure of a trail ride more then I do.   Always interested about what is beyond the next hill or around the next bend in the trail.   They really DO like to GO.  

I am glad I have such "lovely" horses...I don't think I could be happy now with horses who don't interact with me with interest and curiosity.
Mandy'sMarty

Sandy, Thanks for the references to Capra's book and to Michelle Dennis. I've seen her website before. Capra's book has given me the spark I've been seeking for developing an equine facilitated /coached leadership program. Great stuff.

Larry, I bet your Appy mare was feeling the same feelings that you were feeling during that climb and then at the summit. It's what I sometimes jokingly refer to as 'mind meld'. You two were of common purpose, intent, focus...and experience. Such is the stuff of great learning while being totally present in the moment.

I know from personal experience that my mare is so much more receptive to doing what I ask when she understands the purpose of the request. Mandy is not so interested in leaping over a man-made jump but she readily jumps over fallen trees and logs in a natural context. Years ago I literally apologized to her for requesting her cooperation while performing the 7 Games so many times. It was when I finally explained to her that it was not to drill her so much as it was to develop my own proficiency and  to demonstrate my competence that she began to cooperate. It was also then that I decided that the attainment of the Parelli Levels was not worth the toll it was taking on our relationship. I was not about to turn Mandy into my sacrificial horse for the sake of acquiring colored strings and certificates.

I too believe that we humans have reached a point where our so-called superior communication form of written...and even spoken...language is becoming a hindrance. Perhaps for the reason that we seem to dedicate almost all of our focus on expressing ourselves by sending messages and not enough focus on listening and thus receiving messages. And perhaps also for the reason that so many of us are so wrapped up in what happened previously or what is about to happen that we do not give attention to what is actually happening now. Instead, we tend to filter what is happening now through the lenses of what was or what we fear will be.

Perhaps Dennis' philosophy of working with horses who 'volunteer' to participate is fundamentally based on interacting with horses who are receptive to what she is offering. Receptive horses receive our intent as a form of communication. It is an integral part of feel...a concept that is so alien to many of us.
Blue Flame

Mandy'sMarty wrote:
Sandy, Thanks for the references to Capra's book and to Michelle Dennis. I've seen her website before. Capra's book has given me the spark I've been seeking for developing an equine facilitated /coached leadership program. Great stuff.


Marty,

I really think you should check this Andrew Froggatt guy out. He's doing pretty much what you are contemplating - leadership, non-verbal communication etc.

Link: http://www.talkinghorses.co.nz/

I think I have a free disc or DVD of his somewhere around here. I could send it to you if you like.
Mandy'sMarty

Sandy,

Thanks for the tip. I actually found his website a while ago and I even emailed him to receive his free report. Never got a reply...probably because of my address in the States. I'll look over his website again when I get a moment and I may take you up on that offer. I'm always curious and interested in who's doing what and how within this niche that offers human development led by the horse. I'll let you know.
bit

I like Michele Dennis a lot.  She said that she offers the opportunity for her horses to participate in her play, and if they do, they get grain.  If they don't, no worries, but they don't get grain.  I wish she was closer, she has a lovely way with her horses.
Finding purpose in what we do has taken on a whole new meaning for me and my horses.  Now that I know what it feels like to have my horse engaged and entertained in what we are doing?  I need to find a way to bring that feeling to what ever we do.  I think I'd go work on someones ranch a few days a week if I could.  Purpose equals connection, for me.  lol, this was such a BIG revelation for me!  Yes, Bit trembled that second morning, but I'm beginning to wonder if it wasn't the 45 degrees...maybe it was in anticipation.  What if she was as excited as I was? She looks at me differently since we got back.  She really sees me.  Guess I better go find us some more cows.
Hertha

Bit wrote:
Quote:
She said that she offers the opportunity for her horses to participate in her play, and if they do, they get grain.  If they don't, no worries, but they don't get grain.



Sounds like positive reinforcement aka clicker training.  The thing with the 'click' is that you are giving feedback to the horse at the precise moment he's doing what you'd like him to do, so it becomes a two-way conversation.

Once they understand the dynamics of the system, they offer the stuff you've clicked for in an effort to get you to 'play' the click/treat game.

And it's all part of this:

Quote:
Perhaps Dennis' philosophy of working with horses who 'volunteer' to participate is fundamentally based on interacting with horses who are receptive to what she is offering. Receptive horses receive our intent as a form of communication. It is an integral part of feel...a concept that is so alien to many of us.


Once the horse realises that people can be understood and that people will respond to their overtures, the relationship becomes much more meaningful.
bit

no clicker stuff.  At dinner time, the ones that work get grain at meal time.  The one's that don't play just get hay.  I don't know if they connect the fact that the grain is a result of them playing with her.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ8XTXpd0BU
Hertha

Would love to see how she works from the beginning with a new horse.
Hertha

Larry,

if you had climbed the mountain with another person or your dog, would you have felt the same shared exhilaration as you felt with your horse?

If we spend time and adventure with another being, it builds a bond.  I think the animal feels the bond just as much as we do.
Blue Flame

Hertha wrote:
Would love to see how she works from the beginning with a new horse.
I think the other horses would help in that respect.
Blue Flame

coveredbridgefarm wrote:
I guess I tend to take language as a step backwards in communication because it is so often inadequate. I'm guessing that there have been people reading this thread who have hesitated to respond because they can't find the right words to express themselves. In that sense, the language becomes a distraction. It can become a barrier to the expression of an abstract thought.  I have a theory that people and horses are alike in that many of their abstract thoughts often occur undetected by those people who communicate solely in the written and spoken language. That the reliance on the language has caused man to become increasingly more unaware of the abstract thoughts of others and his level of consciousness has actually diminished. In effect, the language, that very thing that may be viewed as having the ability to increase the sentience of our species, may have actually had just the opposite effect.

Well, it's just a theory. No need to call the guys in the straightjackets.  

But it is one of the reasons why I am a believer in people spending time alone with their horses. Go climb a mountain with them. Go camping with your horse. Learn to communicate with a species on their level of consciousness for a change. You might be surprised at what you learn.

Larry
From Andrew Froggatt's page ( http://www.talkinghorses.co.nz/ ) . . .
Quote:
Our programme is based on numerous studies in particular the research by Professor Albert Mehrabian at UCLA discovered that 55 percent of meaning is communicated by non-verbal gestures, 38 percent by intonation and only seven percent by spoken words.

People respond to our verbal and non verbal messages but the problem is we are most often unaware of the messages we are sending and instead we lay blame for the miscommunication, on the other person.  Too often, non-verbal messages are in direct conflict with the words we are using.

This programme will show you what signals you are sending out. The horses will prove how becoming fluent in non-verbal language can develop leadership presence and build trust.
coveredbridgefarm

Hertha wrote:
Quote:
if you had climbed the mountain with another person or your dog, would you have felt the same shared exhilaration as you felt with your horse?

With another person, it would almost assuredly have altered the experience, depending upon the individual, of course. In fact, I have taken a couple of people with horses up roughly the same path(we skirted around the steeper areas). I think one of them never rode with me again.    

With my dog, probably very little change is what I'm thinking.

Sandy, Andrew definitely sounds like someone I want to get to know better. Thanks for the great references.

Carol wrote:
Quote:
Larry I think you'd like Paso Finos too.
I think you're right.  

Larry
Clarissa

Larry wrote:
Quote:
 Clarissa, would you say that man might consider getting used to the idea that he may have relatively little innate value from the horse's perspective(now there's a blow to our ego), but, at the same time, in the moment, the horse may value man highly.  And that might involve more than simply being a food source


Yes Larry I would agree with that thinking. They will take advantage of whatever is in their best interests & is important enough at the time. Otherwise ‘clear off & leave us alone’, basically.



Hertha wrote:
Quote:
Once the horse realises that people can be understood and that people will respond to their overtures, the relationship becomes much more meaningful.


Yes indeed there are lines of communication that open up. When horses get it that we understand them they become different beings. I find the word ‘communication’ as used in NH circles these days to almost cheapen the act of true communication as offered by a horse that knows that humans understand it.

However all this doesn’t detract from the fact that given their freedom horses will leave with barely a second thought. What it does mean is that if we wanted to find them in the future all we would have to do is go to where they lived & whistle or whatever we do & they would (probably  lol) come running for a while anyway.



Bit I think some horses would get it & others not. There really does seem to be a difference in the way some horses think. Some are more abstract or lateral thinkers while others are direct line thinkers much like humans can be. The way our actions get connected to their actions is over the heads of some horses. I have heard of that study before where the only ones to get grain were those that worked during the day. Some made themselves available for work once they made the connection while others never came in. Then at feedtime they just hung on the fence envious & affected.
Malcolm

This thread put me in mind of a horseman Henry Blake who published in the 70s and who I read before any of the big names people are into here were published. A search revealed that I am not the only one here. Marty was into him and appletivo said she would - wonder if she did . . . ?

Anyhow the thread died an untimely death but maybe it can be be resuscitated here.

http://itsaboutthehorse.myfastforum.org/about2779.html&view=next


http://www.amazon.com/Talking-Horses-Henry-Blake/dp/0943955378
Quote:

Talking with Horses
A Study of Communication between Man and Horse
Henry Blake

CORONET BOOKS Hodder and Stoughton

TALKING WITH HORSES
Henry Blake Is British by birth and was brought up In Somerset where his whole life centred around horses. This love was further developed first in the army and then through farming In Wales. In 1970, he gave up all other interests to study horses full-time. TALKING WITH HORSES draws on his immense understanding and sympathy with the horses which have been his lifelong study.
All his life Henry Blake has used his miraculous ability in practical ways. He has developed a revolutionary method of 'gentling' horses which he describes for the first time in this book. By persuading the horse to want to do what he wants, within hours he is able to train a wild or unmanageable horse to perform tasks which would normally take years of schooling. Not only has he discovered that horses communicate partly through ESP and telepathy, but he himself uses them both when he is talking with horses.
No one concerned with handling horses or interested In the whole fascinating field of animal communication can afford to miss this remarkable book. TALKING WITH HORSES is a sensational breakthrough book which has aroused worldwide interest.

Copyright © 1976 H. N. Blake
First published In Great Britain 1975 by Souvenir Press Limited
Coronet Edition 1976


As you can see he was into ESP and i believed him in my impressionable youth but now I am not so sure about magic or Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny. I always wonder why the Queens of Buckingham Palace invited cowboys Monty and Pat to strut their stuff, but never old bloke Blake.

He had a couple more:

http://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Ho...Blake/dp/0285631543/ref=pd_sim_b1

http://www.amazon.com/Horse-Sense...gence/dp/0943955890/ref=pd_sim_b2

ESP aside the last words of his first book have some good sense which is not so common or as easily said as done:

Quote:
Finally, here are some do's and don'ts when you are handling your horse.

Do get a horse that suits your tem-perament, do not get one that is beyond your abilities.

Do remember that beauty is only skin deep and do not be taken in by spit and polish.

Do remember that a horse who looks rough and thin can always be improved, whereas one who is fat, glossy and finished can only lose in value.

Do be boss and do not be dominated by your horse.

Do what you enjoy doing, do not do something just because your friends do it. Do observe his signs and sounds, but do not let your im¬agination run away with you. Back everything up with sound observations.

Do say 'please will you' before you ask a horse to do anything, and be sure to back it up with determination to enforce your wishes. But above all do not ask a horse to perform beyond his capabilities. Do school regularly but do not fight in the schooling arena.

Do think like a horse but do not endow him with human qualities, feelings and responses, because he is not a human being — fortunately for the horse!

Do observe his natural wishes and desires, but do not spoil him.

Do enforce dis¬cipline but do not be a martinet.

Do teach him to jump naturally, but do not over-jump him: about twelve to fifteen fences a day is enough for most horses.

Last of all please remember that it is important for the horse to enjoy himself, to be happy and to be comfortable, but that this cannot be achieved without firmness and discipline.


I think for people who started there, Parelli is a logical bend on the same path - that's how I got here - and so is Buck. Once you have had enough of English ESP, cowboyish showmanship or gruff bridlehorsemanship, you move on as you always do.

I see Deb was going to get into him when she could afford it. His first book is scanned and downloadable free . . . .

filly.msk.ru/articles/Talking_with_Horses.doc

Reading bits of it made me nostalgic.

Enjoy,

Malcolm
coveredbridgefarm

Thanks for all of the excellent references. Malcomb, Hertha, Sandy, Clarissa, and anyone else I have forgotten.  

We may not totally resolve the original question but, using the multitude of inputs this thread has received, we may be able to inch ever closer to a resolution. Hence, we are progressing.  

"Do you feel that horses have a natural connection to us as we have to them?"  Just another way of asking what is really going on in the horse's mind.  

Larry
coveredbridgefarm

Malcomb wrote:
Quote:
I always wonder why the Queens of Buckingham Palace invited cowboys Monty and Pat to strut their stuff, but never old bloke Blake.

I'm going to guess that it had something to do with showmanship, which probably reveals a lot about the way man communicates, which probably goes a long way to explaining why communicating with another species is so difficult for man.

Larry
bit

I did end up reading Henry's book.  Liked him a lot, and then I think about that time we got our woo woo topic, spirit.  Speaking of which, temp is dropping and I can FEEL my horses wondering where the heck the human is with the food.
Hertha

If you can FEEL them, they can FEEL you        
Malcolm

I am glad you read old Blake Deb. Like you and me he had a weakness for underfed TBs that he rehabilitated. His wife depaired for the feed bills this habit incurred.

For the spiritual aspect, I have come to replace Blake's telepathy and ESP with the Dorrancian notion of feel which Hertha and Deb allude to. Tom spoke more of the horse's spirit in his latter days which most people are comfortable since they have heard of a spirited horse.

It opens the door for intution without closing the shutters some people may have about woo woo -- especially Christian folk who find New Age spirituality threatening Paganism. In the pre-monotheistic world of animistic religions, all living things had spirit and most were our kin.

This month saw the release of Buck's movie and my search in the Amazon jungle revealed that most who bought it also bought Mark Rashid's new book. So yes Larry we are making progress and I am loving the ride.

Quote:
Nature in Horsemanship: Discovering Harmony Through Principles of Aikido

In Mark's newest book, he brings together Western and Eastern philosophies to demonstrate a seamless new incarnation of horse training. After years of helping “difficult” horses, Mark Rashid understands how to build the foundation of a horse’s training and resolve any problems encountered along the way. He explains how he allows the traditionally firm or assertive approach of the old Western style to take some lessons from the softer conflict resolution and ego reduction approach that the Japanese martial art of aikido teaches. Rashid’s ultimate goal is for harmony between horse and rider.
coveredbridgefarm

Isn't it interesting that this connection between horse and human that is discussed so often on these horse forums is referred to by so many different terms?

Esp
Telepathy
Feel
Spiritual
Bonding

Apparently, this is a phenomenon that does not lend itself readily to our own language.  Fancy that.    

Larry
Malcolm

I is interesting Larry.

I have discovered the same discourse in the wilderness movement which is one of my themes. Also the some of the stars attract the charlatan label which is true of NH. So above natural horsemanship are we also talking about supernatural horsemanship? Most shy away from this but there are those who are not shy of the woo woo.

Malcolm
coveredbridgefarm

Malcom, I think your comparison between the NH movement and the wilderness movement is very appropriate. We're talking about intangible and elusive concepts in both cases. If society cannot truly understand the concepts, how can it pick out the charlatans?

I'm not sure if we're talking about supernatural horsemanship or if we're talking about horsemanship on a superconscious level, or at least on a subconscious level.  But those are just words anyway referring to more elusive concepts.

I think the bottom line is that we are talking about concepts that are hard to recognize, hard to identify, hard to communicate to others, and hard to accept. The easiest thing in the world would be to dismiss it as a figment of someone's imagination, as many people do. But, for some of us, it's also hard to dismiss. There really might be something to it.

What an elusive concept the mind of the horse has become for the minds of some people.  It seems like it comes down to "we don't know what we don't know" even when we're trying to understand.

Larry
PasoBaby_CarolU

Larry and Malcolm, I much prefer discussions of our relationship, feel, spiritualism with the horses, etc., to what is discussed on other horse forums.  Forget "horsemanship" all they seem to care about is breeding, showing, winning, etc.  I don't think many even try to KNOW their horses or want to LEARN anything.  I was told last year, "Not all of us believe in this "reward the slightest try" crap"....these are the same people that had zero interest in watching the movie Buck.  I really don't think some want to know that what they do with their horses is wrong.
babs

PasoBaby_CarolU wrote:
... are the same people that had zero interest in watching the movie Buck.  I really don't think some want to know that what they do with their horses is wrong.


No Carol, they don't. Their belief system is so much a part of who they are that allowing themselves to entertain even the most remote interest in alternative methods/thoughts/ideas is extremely threatening and causes major emotional discomfort.

Its my belief that people will not seek a change until they have an experience so strong and impactful (either postive or negative) that they are motivated to consider making a change.  Its the then when they will be open to listening to alternative ideas, change their behavior, question their beliefs and look outside of their comfort zone for answers.

An experience which is enough motivation for one person may not even registered on another's radar.  Just look at people with multiple arrests for DUI - public scorn & embarrassment, revocation of license and vehicle, and even prison is not serious enough to cause them to seek to change. Some people would rather wallow in ignorance than make themselves uncomfortable by considering change, even if the change is better for them in the long run.

Which is why I make a concerted effort to not waste time and emotional energy on people who do not have any open mind, whether about horsemanship or anything topic. I do recall that there was a tendancy for some of us when we were PNH newbies to try and convince everyone we encountered that PNH was the the end all and be all of horsemanship. Overtime, most of us realized it was healthier to focus on our own journeys and allow others to change(or not) as they needed.
Mandy'sMarty

coveredbridgefarm wrote:
Malcom, I think your comparison between the NH movement and the wilderness movement is very appropriate. We're talking about intangible and elusive concepts in both cases. If society cannot truly understand the concepts, how can it pick out the charlatans?

I'm not sure if we're talking about supernatural horsemanship or if we're talking about horsemanship on a superconscious level, or at least on a subconscious level.  But those are just words anyway referring to more elusive concepts.

Larry


Guys, I don't draw distinctions between the NH and the wilderness movements, nor between what Blake, Dorrance or Rashid speak about.
I believe it's all about the same theme. It's about re-connecting to the natural world and to all connected in the web of life.

Before I found Mandy and her band of 33 horses with which to spend that first year of my education "learning horse", I spent time practicing "feel" with different small bands of wild horses living on a barrier island. And before that, I experimented with technique while encountering wild animals. I've had several wild teachers. A young mule deer joined me one day during a hike in Montana.  A moose allowed me to walk with him while grazing in Alaska. Another moose cow and her calf connected with me in Wyoming. A pack of wolves bedded down near my camp in Alaska. An encounter with a black bear in North Carolina. Multiple encounters with wild dolphins.

I believe that the horse is showing humans how to re-connect with the natural world...and how to re-connect with our authentic selves.
ErinR76

An experience which is enough motivation for one person may not even registered on another's radar.  Just look at people with multiple arrests for DUI - public scorn & embarrassment, revocation of license and vehicle, and even prison is not serious enough to cause them to seek to change. Some people would rather wallow in ignorance than make themselves uncomfortable by considering change, even if the change is better for them in the long run. --babs

Boy if this isn't the truth, I don't know what is. My mother is an alcoholic. She's never gotten a DUI but there are plenty of other things that have happened that should have been a catalyst for change.

On bab's last sentence, though, from my experiences with my mother, I truly believe (ESPECIALLY when there is substance abuse involved), that not only a lifetime of wrong thinking, but the changes physically and spiritually that occur with substance abuse, truly cannot be overcome. I KNOW some people HAVE overcome it. But for some, like my mom, truly can't do a 180. She's learned a little and there is SOME improvement, but I don't think until she meets her maker will there ever be an about face. Sad but true I think.
ErinR76

Mandy'sMarty wrote:
coveredbridgefarm wrote:
Malcom, I think your comparison between the NH movement and the wilderness movement is very appropriate. We're talking about intangible and elusive concepts in both cases. If society cannot truly understand the concepts, how can it pick out the charlatans?

I'm not sure if we're talking about supernatural horsemanship or if we're talking about horsemanship on a superconscious level, or at least on a subconscious level.  But those are just words anyway referring to more elusive concepts.

Larry


Guys, I don't draw distinctions between the NH and the wilderness movements, nor between what Blake, Dorrance or Rashid speak about.
I believe it's all about the same theme. It's about re-connecting to the natural world and to all connected in the web of life.

Before I found Mandy and her band of 33 horses with which to spend that first year of my education "learning horse", I spent time practicing "feel" with different small bands of wild horses living on a barrier island. And before that, I experimented with technique while encountering wild animals. I've had several wild teachers. A young mule deer joined me one day during a hike in Montana.  A moose allowed me to walk with him while grazing in Alaska. Another moose cow and her calf connected with me in Wyoming. A pack of wolves bedded down near my camp in Alaska. An encounter with a black bear in North Carolina. Multiple encounters with wild dolphins.

I believe that the horse is showing humans how to re-connect with the natural world...and how to re-connect with our authentic selves.


(wild clapping and cheering!!!)    Can I steal that for our politics thread?!
bit

I've found, for myself that it takes a defining moment in time for me to take pause and change.  A death, whether divorce, a birth (my daughter came and I realized she would only be a good as me.  My back injury, and loss of 30 year career (had defined myself by what I did, not who I was.  Very ego based.)  Ya think about it, and we all go through these little "deaths" every day.  We never wake up the same person we were the day before.  When something big happens, and that change is profound, it can open a door to redefine yourself.  We have that choice every day, of course.  To choose to be better, to be more connected to what is good.  Horse's have proven to be my physical, emotional and spirtual barometers.  As I connect better with them, all my connections are better, whether animal, human or divine.  "We are all one" has become experience, not just a unifying verbal expression.  [/quote]
Hertha

Malcolm wrote;
Quote:
I have discovered the same discourse in the wilderness movement which is one of my themes.


It's always seemed to me, that a person either has the feel for wildnerness and how it is really everything, or they don't.

Marty wrote:
Quote:
I believe that the horse is showing humans how to re-connect with the natural world...and how to re-connect with our authentic selves.


I guess horses can show some humans how to re-connect (if they are open to the re-connection), as can any animal, as your adventures amply point out.
Just like wilderness, or a garden or a view can  help re-connect.
coveredbridgefarm

Marty wrote:
Quote:
Before I found Mandy and her band of 33 horses
Marty, did Mandy come from a wild herd? Btw, I share some of your experiences with wild animals.

Larry
Mandy'sMarty

Larry, Mandy is domestically born and bred out of Maryland. She is a Morgan. I found her on a Morgan farm in a mountain valley in north Georgia. She was the lead mare of the resident herd of 33 horses. Before finding Mandy and the Morgan farm, I had spent three long weekends among the wild herd of horses on Cumberland Island over the span of about 18 months. Cumberland is a barrier island off the Georgia coast.

The Morgan farm is two miles from my getaway mountain cabin. When I met the owners, they invited me to visit their farm and meet their horses. During my first visit, I volunteered cleaning out the barn stalls. That led to an invitation to ride with them the following weekend. One thing led to another and I then had a standing invitation to ride with them. Mandy was the ambassador horse and the one broke for riding. I spent almost every weekend that first year helping around their farm and hanging out with their horses. Soon I was accompanying the owners on long rides throughout the mountains. Mandy was always my mount.

Early on they had offered to provide me with a project horse for my Parelli education. I begged off until I had spent at least 6 months hanging out with the entire herd for my education. Later, when I realized that Mandy was not available as my project horse I spontaneously decided to buy her before someone else did. It was perhaps one of the best decisions I've ever made and one that would change my life. I found out later that there were three other purchasers interested in buying her. I happened to show up with the money first. At the time, I really had no idea how very special Mandy was.
coveredbridgefarm

Marty, I do believe that lead mares tend to be the best choice to learn from, if the human is up to it.  I love the methodical way you selected her, over a long period of time, riding her, watching her in the herd. No wonder it has worked out so well for both of you.

Larry
bit

Marty, you need a bumpersticer.  
I drive a ___________, but I ride a lead mare.
ErinR76

I was at a motorcycle rally this weekend and there was a sticker that said, 'Four wheels carries the body, two wheels carries the soul' and I thought I'd alter it to four wheels carries the body, four legs carry the soul
Malcolm

This is an important statement Marty:

Quote:
I believe that the horse is showing humans how to re-connect with the natural world...and how to re-connect with our authentic selves.


So our gifted horsemen are merely interpreters through whom the horse's message is conveyed more clearly and amplified. Like the preachers who are there to save us from ourselves and make us better people, we become disillusioned when we suspect that the church coffers are more important than message. But then all movements have economic realities to face. The wilderness movement finds itself in the pockets of the big mining corporations. Contradiction and paradox is usual which leads to condemnation, but this is found most concentrated in the biggest and most succcesful in conveying the message.

Malcolm
coveredbridgefarm

Like any other interpretation, something usually gets lost in the translation from horse to human student through an interpretor(gifted horseman).

Like any other interpretor, the gifted horseman usually expects to get paid. If we think he expects too much, some folks get alienated. Why do some people seem to think they will always need an interpretor anyway?

Like any other human student of animal behavior, aspiring natural horsemen usually must continually fight to overcome their own social programming in order to understand the horse's behavior. Huge obstacle here. Horses are natural. Most of us aren't even close to natural.

I agree with Marty that the horse provides us with an opportunity to learn more about our true inner selves, but we have so much to overcome.  

Larry
ErinR76

LOL. I have a reading list for those of you bent on 'overcoming.'
PasoBaby_CarolU

You know what I really LOVE    about this thread?  That people ask and care what the horse feels.  You know how RARE that is?

KUDOS to all!
jackspark

I've been trying to overcome a life-long addiction to time and BOY are my horses (all 4 of them) presenting me many and varied lessons.  They each seem to show me a different reason to take life slower and focus  more attention on the lovely details and nuances.

Shaun, my old-timer needs me to slow down and help him deal with his bone and joint limitations........ no more riding with the wind and "getting somewhere" for us anymore.

April, my senior mare, needs me to be more considerate, and take my time to do all things in a very polite and quiet way.  She is easily offended.

Rookie, my teen angel, is a mirror of me.  He is unable to focus on the details because he, too, is time addicted and always scanning the horizon.  I think he just continues to mirror me so that I can find my way

Gem, my green gal, needs me to slow down because she is just learning and has to process all information....... repeat, repeat, repeat

I am starting to get it, I think......... "slow" learner here
Hertha

Larry wrote:
Quote:
Why do some people seem to think they will always need an interpreter anyway?


That's an interesting question.  It makes me think of people who are constantly 'taking lessons'.

If the interpreter (teacher) is doing a good job, should they not get more and more unnecessary?

I guess it is easier to 'keep on taking lessons' than to focus strongly and begin to own the teachings for oneself.  Maybe in many cases life is just too full for people to do it for themselves, so they settle for second best.

It is interesting watching how hard it is for some people to 'let the horse just do it'.  They think that unless they have a constant 'on' cue for the horse to keep walking, it can't walk  

I guess they think it is like riding a bike or driving a car.
coveredbridgefarm

Hertha wrote:
Quote:
If the interpreter (teacher) is doing a good job, should they not get more and more unnecessary?

Excellent question. If a human learns a second language, he/she usually has, as a goal, the ability to interact with other people some day without a teacher/interpreter. That doesn't appear to be the goal of many aspiring natural horsemen. Instead, they often seem to search for new interpreters, endlessly seeking that one interpreter who will make the language of the horse crystal clear to them, the human. They will even get seriously involved in comparative(and combative) analyses of the many and varied interpreters that they have had. Why is that? It seems like the goal should be to eventually be so adept at this new language that one could wean oneself from the need to have to continually employ an interpreter.  

But no!!!  When man attempts to enter the horse's world, the focus too often falls on the interpeter. Why is the role of the interpeter different when the new language is equine than it is when the new language is Spanish, or French, or English?

Could it have something to do with man's level of disconnect with the natural world of horses?  Could it have something to do with man's level of disconnect with the natural world in general?

Larry
coveredbridgefarm

Nancy wrote:
Quote:
I've been trying to overcome a life-long addiction to time and BOY are my horses (all 4 of them) presenting me many and varied lessons.  They each seem to show me a different reason to take life slower and focus  more attention on the lovely details and nuances.
Another excellent point: The issue of the passage of time.

Who has ever thought about the way a human greets the day compared to the way a horse might greet the day?

Typical human experience:  It's already daylight and the alarm clock rudely jars the human from a sound sleep.

Human: Son of a _____, It's daylight already. Gotta get dressed, gotta have coffee, gotta get something to eat, gotta get the kids off to school, GOTTA GO TO WORK!!!!  Son of a _______!!!!!

Typical horse experience(and I speak from some personal experience because I have camped out with my horse, on the desert, in the mountains, on the beach, etc..): The horse is already awake before the sun rises in anticipation of a new day. And the sun does not rise abruptly but instead, it rises gradually, bringing light to the horse's world incrementally in much the same way that humans might learn to meditate, envisioning light rising from the bottom of their feet, up through their legs, up through their torso, their neck, all the way to the top of their head. And when the light has consumed their entire body, the human feels energized and purified by the cleansing energy that light brings. The mind becomes stilled and energized at the same time by the light. I picture this to be the way the horse greets each new day.

Two very different ways of greeting the day. One way is extremely disruptive and totally unsynchronized with the natural passage of time. The other way is harmonious, and in synchronization with the natural rhythms of the real world. While man experiences stress and anxiety from the moment of wakening, the horse uses the gradual lighting up of his world to bring tranquility and energy to his world at the same time.

The daily rhythms of sunrise and sunset mean something to a horse and the horse is affected instinctively, intuitively, inwardly, maybe subconsciously.  What do they mean to a human?  

Gotta go to work!  Need coffee!!!  Same stupid job!  Same stupid boss!  Need coffee!!!  Son of a _____!!!!!  

Reverse the process after the work day is done.  Gotta get home! Gotta get supper! Watch tv! Gotta get to bed because tomorrow is another day. Son of a _____!!!!!

How is the passage of time as man experiences it working for you?

Man is so disconnected from the horse's world. I'm not trying to put equine interpreters out of work, but the next time you're pondering another clinic, consider accompanying your horse into their world. Spend a weekend with your horse out in the middle of nowhere, just you and your horse. Watch the sunrise with your horse. Feel what the horse feels. Feel energized by the light of the early morning hour as the sun appears on the eastern horizon. This may be a new experience for you but it will be a familiar experience for your horse because he has lived this moment many times before. It is part of his language. It's part of who he is, this passge of time in the early morning hour. Same thing at sunset. Allow the horse's world to become your world. Let the horse be your interpreter. If you really want to be a natural horseman.

And if you do all of that, then ask yourself the question in the original post of this thread: Do you feel that horses have a natural connection to us as we have to them?

What is there about us that might feel natural to them?

Larry
PasoBaby_CarolU

coveredbridgefarm wrote:
Hertha wrote:
Quote:
If the interpreter (teacher) is doing a good job, should they not get more and more unnecessary?

Excellent question. If a human learns a second language, he/she usually has, as a goal, the ability to interact with other people some day without a teacher/interpreter. That doesn't appear to be the goal of many aspiring natural horsemen. Instead, they often seem to search for new interpreters, endlessly seeking that one interpreter who will make the language of the horse crystal clear to them, the human. They will even get seriously involved in comparative(and combative) analyses of the many and varied interpreters that they have had. Why is that? It seems like the goal should be to eventually be so adept at this new language that one could wean oneself from the need to have to continually employ an interpreter.  

But no!!!  When man attempts to enter the horse's world, the focus too often falls on the interpeter. Why is the role of the interpeter different when the new language is equine than it is when the new language is Spanish, or French, or English?

Could it have something to do with man's level of disconnect with the natural world of horses?  Could it have something to do with man's level of disconnect with the natural world in general?

Larry


Larry, I find this a very interesting assumption.   I might throw something into the mix here, my ex-brother-in-law has a PhD in English.  The other language he was fluent in was Spanish.  It was his minor in college.  He was my sister's Spanish Professor when they met...that was nearly 30 years ago.  For the next 15 years they would travel the world, but each summer they'd spend 6 weeks in a language school in Barcelona.  They had a son, and moved to Marbella, Spain so the son could be bilingual (he actually knows French also), but during this time, my BIL would take language lessons 3 times a week.   He knows Spanish better then most Spanish speakers.  You would think at some point he would "know enough."  But no, he continues to take language classes to get ever deeper into the nuances of the language.

I brought this up to show that some people become addicted to lessons.  I have seen people take riding lessons their entire life, and never learn horsemanship, or study the language of the horse.

I had read a research paper years ago on the addictive behavior of the human species.  Most people become addicted to something...it can be lessons, school, sports - either participant or observer, religion, drugs, alcohol, even the Internet and Horse Forums.    It is human nature to be dependent, and the rare human to go through life and not become addicted to anything.  

You will see combative addiction behavior in people addicted to other things, sports is probably the easiest to identify, but combative addiction to religion is the basis of most wars.   How combative people become has more to do with the level of pathology of addiction within the individual.   Just as some people can live a life exposed to religion and live comfortably without it, some people can study horsemanship - or a language - or the horse itself, without getting pathologically addicted.   But others do.  

What any of this has to do with the horse's perspective, I don't know.  I think like anything else, you can spend a life time of study and still never learn it all.  

There are worse addictions.
Clarissa

Hertha wrote:
I guess it is easier to 'keep on taking lessons' than to focus strongly and begin to own the teachings for oneself.  


You're spot on there Hertha.

So many people just skim over life unable to fully commit to anything meaningful. Then they wonder why they have an unfullfilling life! Many people just don't seem to be able to muster the enegry to think more than skin deep.


Theoretically a good teacher should be able to do themselves out of a job in time!
Mandy'sMarty

coveredbridgefarm wrote:

Who has ever thought about the way a human greets the day compared to the way a horse might greet the day?...

...Typical horse experience(and I speak from some personal experience because I have camped out with my horse, on the desert, in the mountains, on the beach, etc..): The horse is already awake before the sun rises in anticipation of a new day. And the sun does not rise abruptly but instead, it rises gradually, bringing light to the horse's world incrementally in much the same way that humans might learn to meditate, envisioning light rising from the bottom of their feet, up through their legs, up through their torso, their neck, all the way to the top of their head. And when the light has consumed their entire body, the human feels energized and purified by the cleansing energy that light brings. The mind becomes stilled and energized at the same time by the light. I picture this to be the way the horse greets each new day...

...Two very different ways of greeting the day. One way is extremely disruptive and totally unsynchronized with the natural passage of time. The other way is harmonious, and in synchronization with the natural rhythms of the real world. While man experiences stress and anxiety from the moment of wakening, the horse uses the gradual lighting up of his world to bring tranquility and energy to his world at the same time.

The daily rhythms of sunrise and sunset mean something to a horse and the horse is affected instinctively, intuitively, inwardly, maybe subconsciously.  What do they mean to a human?... 

How is the passage of time as man experiences it working for you?



Larry, I too have spent enough 'horse time' with my mare to wonder what she and other horses think about how we humans relate to time.
I've often felt that horses were somewhat amused at how we humans relate to time. Your thread prompted me to simply ask Mandy about this issue. Her response took me by surprise.

Mandy says that she, as all horses, view the human relationship with time with pity, sadness and pain. She says it creates a disconnection not only between ourselves but also between us and all creatures. In referring to humans, she says it creates a disconnection within ourselves as well. She says that horses feel emotional pain because of the disconnection between humans and horses.
coveredbridgefarm

Carol wrote:
Quote:
my BIL would take language lessons 3 times a week.   He knows Spanish better then most Spanish speakers.  You would think at some point he would "know enough."  But no, he continues to take language classes to get ever deeper into the nuances of the language.

I brought this up to show that some people become addicted to lessons.  I have seen people take riding lessons their entire life, and never learn horsemanship, or study the language of the horse.

That's very interesting, Carol. Your BIL sems extremely interested in mastering the mechanics of the language, maybe more so than truly understanding the Spanish culture?  Once you know the language better than the people who use it, doesn't it become more about the language than the people?

Similarly, if you focus on the mechanics of riding without a commensurate understanding of the horse's true nature, then is it really all about the culture/nature of the horse? Eventually, you have to just learn how to share all of their experiences, I think, in order to be able to say that you are one with your horse.

Btw, there is nothing necessarily wrong with either one, imo. It's just that there might be a question over what is motivating you.  Is it all about understanding the mind of the horse?  Or is it all about mastering the mechanics of their language? Certainly the two are related but the mind is probably more of a process.

Marty wrote:
Quote:
Mandy says that she, as all horses, view the human relationship with time with pity, sadness and pain. She says it creates a disconnection not only between ourselves but also between us and all creatures. In referring to humans, she says it creates a disconnection within ourselves as well. She says that horses feel emotional pain because of the disconnection between humans and horses.
That's pretty much what I suspected. The more I learn about another species, the more I wind up questioning the route that man has chosen. The disconnection within himself might be reflected in the stress related diseases man is experiencing and all of his conflicts with other people. Maybe it has something to do with how man processes time. And apparently that adversely affects other species as well.  

Larry
Hertha

Marty wrote
Quote:
Mandy says that she, as all horses, view the human relationship with time with pity, sadness and pain. She says it creates a disconnection not only between ourselves but also between us and all creatures. In referring to humans, she says it creates a disconnection within ourselves as well. She says that horses feel emotional pain because of the disconnection between humans and horses.


This is very interesting.  After a play session or a farm walk, Boots always hangs around to do her pilates exercises and even when I tell her that the treats are 'all gone', she hangs around.  Smoky is tending to hang around longer too, since I've started playing with him regularly.

So often I explain to her that I have to leave to go to work so i can keep her in the way she is accustomed.      

I'm sure she and Smoky wonder why I can't just hang out with them for the whole 24 hours.  They often hang out just behind the house where they can see us through the windows.  Often that's where they sleep, less than 15 meters away.

Am strongly looking forward to the next chapter of my life when I don't have to sell my time to the forced labour brigade and the tax man.
Maybe then I can become more horse-like.  

PasoCarol, I agree that it is good to keep looking for teachers who are able to enlighten further, to give new perspectives and to deepen our knowledge.  It allows easier separation of the wheat from the chaff.

Learning about horse natural history and anatomy and bio-mechanics and horse behaviour and horsemanship methodologies can become pretty comprehensive.

But in the end, isn't it mainly about watching the sun rise in the company of a happy horse?
Clarissa

Hertha wrote:
 They often hang out just behind the house where they can see us through the windows.  Often that's where they sleep, less than 15 meters away.

Am strongly looking forward to the next chapter of my life when I don't have to sell my time to the forced labour brigade and the tax man.
Maybe then I can become more horse-like.  


"the forced labour brigade "  Oh I like the way you put that Hertha!  

The one thing I find is that my horses will just hang around at the back fence all the time if I feed them. I have to get really strict & not feed them enough so they get hungry & go away to graze. Otherwise they stand around & loose weight waiting for me to arrive with food.


Hertha wrote
Quote:
Learning about horse natural history and anatomy and bio-mechanics and horse behaviour and horsemanship methodologies can become pretty comprehensive.


Yep it never ends. One answer leads to several more questions.
bit

I believe our separateness has bitten us in the foot at every level.  We separate ourselves from one another, from animals, from the earth, and even from God. (God being out there somewhere and not within)   This is just my personal opinion, but my take on things? When I think about the whole picture, all of it, it's all energy.  The same energy.  Separate is an illusion.  We are all one.  I hurt you, I hurt me.  I love a horse, I love me.  
When you watch a herd of horses run, or a flock of birds fly, they move as one.  There is no "ok, when I go, we all need to turn to the right!"  They move as one, and I would venture to say that they do so because of their awareness of their connection.  Even two horses will move as one in the pasture, feet hitting at exactly the same time, and that is an expression  of connection.  You see it in humans, sometimes, especially if their is great love.  How sad that this seems to be something we've lost.  
We are born, and as a child we know.  lI think that's why horses like us more as kids.  Horses have been my spoke on the wheel, to find that connection to all that is.  Riding has become a thing of grace.  A blessing, for having tried to find a way back to who I truly am.
coveredbridgefarm

Very well expressed, Deb. There is a metaphysical view that the surest way to prosperity(awareness, energy) is to first establish your connectedness with all creation and then claim your divine birthright. I believe that's not to be taken only as a religious view but rather, as a reference to the need to connect with all that is natural(that would be pretty much anything that man did not create) and then you may begin to experience the power of the universe for yourself. You can then go to that place where horses, cats, cows, etc., seem to go when they're connected(as you just described).  

So how does man get there? Maybe the beginning of the journey is as simple as this:

Hertha wrote:
Quote:
But in the end, isn't it mainly about watching the sun rise in the company of a happy horse?


Larry
ErinR76

To understand why more people are 'not there,' head over to the Story of Enslavement thread and view the two brain videos. They are truly enlightening and uplifting. You could probably skip the video in the original post, just watch the two videos linked further below. Enlightening on HOW we can 'get there!!'

http://itsaboutthehorse.myfastforum.org/about6711.html

Then, if you require specific knowledge of HOW to shift the balance, read The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle.
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