| Archive for It's About The Horse The Free Forum for those Doing Parelli - and a whole lot More! "Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful." Xenophon (430-355 B.C.), |
| cokey |
Getting OFF the forehand!Hi All,I was hoping that someone might have some helpful pointers for me. I've recently got a new pony - she's welsh cobxTB and is appallingly on the forehand. She struggles to canter online, breaking gait regularly, and motorbiking around corners. Until a few weeks ago, I didn't have a saddle for her, so hadn't attempted much canter work ridden. So yesterday, I tried canter... Hmm, well, you know how if it doesn't work online, it tends not to work under saddle? Well.... We motorbiked round corners in an incredibly unbalanced way, and it felt like her front end was about 6inches lower than her bum! So - what to do??? I guess that working on the canter online will help, but I'm not convinced that she'll "get it" entirely by herself. HT would help too, but at this stage of our relationship, I'm not prepared to stop riding for 6 whole weeks. Cavaletti work to strengthen her hind end will help too, but can only be done in trot, where she's already quite capable of balancing herself.. I've thought of 1million transitions - I guess that might help, but she throws herself onto the forehand in the transition, so unless I hold he up, I'm not sure how we'll get her to stop doing that - I'm worried I'll just reinforce that to transition from trot to canter, you run and throw yourself forwards!! Short of dusting off my pessoa, which I'm obviously incredibly loathe to do, has anyone got any ideas?? Oh, and I was working in low L3 with my last horse. I have all the kit, including KR's book - maybe there may be an answer in there?? Thanks in anticipation!! |
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| happycat |
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| Leah |
A million transitions done properly. | ||||
| cokey |
Sorry to sound dumb  but what do you mean by "done properly"??
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| Leah |
That question could be answered in a book!
Many people will say just do transitions. Well they can be done properly or not. If not, then it won't help. If you don't know the difference it means you probably need some live help to show you and let you know when you have it right. |
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| Horse Gypsy |
You want your transitions to be active so that when you go from a trot to a walk the horse is actively stepping into the walk with the hind end- instead of slamming on the breaks with the front end. SO they have to understand what you want and it takes time- a lot of time. I do stuff like 4 trot strides 4 walk strides so that they get a pattern and a rhythm in their mind- then it becomes a little easier to ask for an active hind leg if they know what gate is expected and when.
My almost 3 year old is one sided so to the right she still has a hard time making transitions so I make it no big deal- she still sort of looks in to me when she makes downward transitions- I reward the slightest try and tell her she is perfect a lot-- she is an overachiever and really likes to please- but is really sensitive. |
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| cheerios |
How old is the horse? How much riding has the horse had?
Sometimes it just takes awhile for a horse to figure out their balance and figure out how to carry themselves properly with a rider on their back. There was a TB mare I rode quite a bit for a year in HS, the barn I rode at was trying to turn her into a good lesson horse. She had been a broodmare, and hadn't been started until she was 10 or 11. She was so unbalanced and on the forehand when we started working with her that she couldn't even canter under saddle on one lead, and just barely on the other. A lot of basic riding and basic dressage work really helped her find her balance and learn to use her hindquarters. Part of it is just going to be TIME, as your mare probably doesn't have the muscles at this point to carry herself properly at the canter, and building muscle takes time. Like others have said, transitions can be great, especially if done right. HorseGypsy made a really good point about Active transitions. I like my transitions to feel like we still have the same amount of energy, even if we're changing gait. Does that make sense? So going from a forward moving trot, down to a walk that still has forward motion and energy. I'd work on transitions at first just at walk, trot, halt and backing. Even if you're not cantering, you'll be developing posture and muscles that will help her canter better. She could be having issues carrying herself at the trot and walk too, it just might be harder to see. Circles, serpentines, figures of 8 and changes of direction are good too. I find for some horses, this really helps encourage them to drop their head, start to develop a bend, and start using their HQ and back as well. If you have hills to play with online or for trail riding, hills can be great to help develop HQ muscles. Small jumps every now and then can really help too. Good luck and keep us updated! |
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| cokey |
Thanks everyone.
Leah - yes, I do know what you mean - I just didn't know if you meant what I thought you meant if you see what I mean lol!! Amber is nearly 9. She's been ridden since she was 3 or 4. With her first rider, she did "dressage", but traditional, held in position dressage.. With the girl she's been with for the last 18 months, she's galloped around the countryside every so often and been SJed and XCed. I genuinely don't "get" how she could have been SJed with any degree of control or finesse whilst so unbalanced in canter, but the rider was a 15 year old girl who had NO interest in schooling at all, so it was probably just point and shoot.. Today I did some cavaletti work online, and some canter circles. The bit that she finds most difficult is the strike off - she runs into canter, so starts off on the forehand. I should probably point out at this stage that she has been recently checked by the chiro. I might try asking for canter over a small fence to see if that helps her. Ridden, we did lots of transitions - walk, trot, backup. Direct and indirect transitions. I did ask for one canter, but just got a really fast unbalanced trot, so I think I'll leave that for a couple of weeks. Thanks again for your help, and I'll keep you updated! |
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| carefreegirl |
backing up can also be helpful to build up HQ muscles--and Hill therapy really does help--you can create your own version of it, where you can still ride, that is what I did--took the principles of it, and changed it slightly to fit what I wanted to do.
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| Julie |
i would leave the canter and build up muscle so she is able to carry herself in transitions. once she can do this look for quality in strike off, and only do a few strides at a time. Or if hacking pop into canter uphill for a few strides so as she can balance. cantering or circling at canter is unlikely to do more but get her off balance. if you work on line use at least a 22ft line as a 12ft canter circle may well be just to tight. | ||||
| kristenhorseluv |
I completely understand this...makes a ton of sense...now how would you do that online? I can only envision how to do it riding... |
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| Horse Gypsy |
When I do that one line I ask for the trot and then ask for the walk with my body language if that doesn't work I will put some pressure on zone 1 to slow down-- but for this to be an engagement exercise you really need to be working at phase 1 or with your body language. So I just send her off and then when I come down exhale and slow down she does- then you can make a pattern out of it. Getting the leg to step under more happens pretty much when you can refine it to where it isn't about slowing down but walking. Not sure that makes sense-- this is what I am saying about this horse I am playing with being an overachiever- she really tries and is ultra sensitive so things like this with her are easy. | ||||
| cokey |
Weeeell, last night was a good night!
On the ground, I focussed on some KR-type, "can you match my energy?" questions when I sent her on the circle. Just asking "can you go" then saying "thanks for trying" and asking her back down to a trot or a walk. Within a couple of tries she was really trying to go from a walk to a canter, and it was taking her less than 1/4 of a circle to get there, which was huge progress!
We're also doing a b*stardised version of HT, with a couple of cavaletti on the circle instead of hill. Still need to make some more cavaletti to make it proper "work" for her, but that'll have to wait til the weekend! Interestingly, considering she's spent the last few years jumping up to 3'9" (she's only 14.3hh..) she's really finding it hard work! How they thought that she was fit enough to be doing that much jumping is quite beyond me, and how she managed to haul herself over those jumps whilst firmly planted on her forehand is amazing, really... 
I didn't ask for any canter whilst riding - but I was doing an awful lot of transitions and really asking for quality. She's starting to "get" that she has to sit on her HQ when I ask for a backup, which is brilliant. Much as she likes to get things right, she's still an innate LBI and really wants to put in as little effort as equinely possible! 
Any more ideas of what I could be doing would be gratefully received.. |
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| Annie |
If you will picture a ballet... graceful, balanced, from a walk to a trot to a canter, online, at liberty in a round pen, then in a larger area longer rope, at liberty, etc etc... The front end of the horse is not way ahead of the back end, the head is at a confident level, the feet are engaged with the body, the body is engaged with the mind, it flows, it dances, it's a ballet  The way you ask for a draw, or a drive, the foot steps you use to transition your horse from a walk to a trot to a canter online, reflects and shows in the saddle.. the way you ask for everything on the ground of your horse, will ultimately transfer in the saddle.
I use the word ballet for two reasons, when you mentally imagine a ballet, you think grace, balance, pride, body control, mental control, emotionally stable, etc etc... That is what you want to see out of yourself and your horse when working together, make it a ballet..strive for that wonderful opening night without being critical on your horse or yourself.... professional ballet dancers take a lot of time to get where they are at, they practice, they work out, they eat properly, they think properly, they do everything in their power to be at the levels they are....and then one day...you look up and see yourself as the dancer, and your horse is your partner.. and together you float and fly across the stage "TOGETHER".... that my dear.. is "transitions done properly" |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I second backing for building back and rear end muscles. If you back and turn at the same time (like doing the weave backwards) you also get the loin area very well. And a note on technique, the horse has to be pulling itself backwards (with rear end energy), not just stepping backwards. Also, if you ask for energy with your body instead of your reins you get better rear end engagement. Think of the difference of how your horse looks. It should be the back end pushing the front like a wheelbarrow (correct) instead of the front end dragging the hind end along, like pulling a wagon behind. If you read the Finesse vs Freestyle thread, remember that the BIG difference is you riding the horse with your body how you want the horse to move. Be active and engaged...and your horse will be. |
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| Julie |
Think of the difference of how your horse looks. It should be the back end pushing the front like a wheelbarrow (correct) instead of the front end dragging the hind end along, like pulling a wagon behind.
like that Carol!! |
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| Julie |
just thinking
if you cannot micromanage and have a horse who is not working in balance with both hinds equally, how would you correct this if he is dropping through left shoulder to avoid engaging right hind? |
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| Horse Gypsy |
I think you have to both do things that ask the left shoulder to yield to the right and do things that ask the right hind to step under more- which could also be asking the right hind to step across. I have a mare who is very weak in the RH- she has a bad stifle from being raced-- too early- but she is a good horse and I think if I could built her muscular strength it will get better-- but I notice with her that she has a very hard time moving that RH to the left especially with my weight on her- so I think I have to build it on the ground more. | ||||
| Leah |
micromanaging is not asking a horse to do something that he is not doing.
To me micromanaging is asking and nagging when he is already trying or getting close. If you ask and he stops doing what you ask then you ask again. That is just being clear and making sure he upholds his responsibility. It is leaving him room to be correct or incorrect-then correcting him if needed. As time goes on he will need less correction. |
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| Blue Flame |
We found a lateral imbalance when we noticed Blue Flame having trouble with maintaining right leads. I noticed the that the rider had fallen into the habit of always posting the trot on the same diagonal and would only switch to the other diagonal when turning to the left (I think). To be fair to the rider, a horse with a lazy or weak hind can ever so subtley encourage you not to post on a certain diagonal - you might not even notice.
Asked rider to try posting more on the other diagonal. Blue Flame would then try to put her back onto the original diagonal by breaking gait, stuttering steps etc. That's how we knew we were onto something - because the horse tries to keep you off the weak diagonal. Right canter leads improved noticeably within a week of riding every day and applying the above. I got the idea from Len Brown's website.
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| Horse Gypsy |
I think that we don't want to micromanage- but we do need to make sure we get our message down to the feet- otherwise you are just creating a whole bunch of confusion for your horse. and it doesn't get better- I think I for so long because I didn't want to take a hold of my horse at all - just ended up confusing the heck out of them because I didn't clarify that yes I want you to move to the right and then release. Micromanaging is when you horse doesn't know what his responsibility is like following the rail- and you spend the whole time holding here and pushing there to get the horse to stay on the rail-- Instead of correcting and releasing until the horse learns it is his responsibility to stay straight. I don't think you have anywhere to go unless a horse at least knows some basic things like going straight and maintaining a circle- with out micromanaging- but some of that has to do with us as a rider being balanced in our bodies. | ||||
| cokey |
Yes, you're so right. As it happens I'm off for my first Power Plate session today to help my use my abs more - after all, I'm expecting Amber to start engaging hers, so it's only fair! And also you're so right about using your body to ask for an active rein back. Amber is the master of doing as little as she can, so I had a bit of trouble getting her to sit back on her hocks in the rein back, and it's not until I engage my brain enough to rememer to have an active body that it really works! She's really getting it though, which is gratifying! We did some more KR "Can you" last night online, which she seems to like. She attempted to go straight from walk to canter a couple of times, but didn't quite make it, bless her! At least she's trying now, so that's a start! I'm also going to start doing ab lifts with Amber every day (if I can remember!), which should help her strength. And we're still working on pole and cavaletti therapy, so fingers crossed! |
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| cokey |
Well, in case anyone's interested, little Amber is doing fantastically!
I've been asking her to do walk to canters online, and she's so nearly there! We've been working (and that is the word!) on a proper "sit down on your haunches and move" yoyo backwards, and whilst it took her quite a long time to realise that I did mean it, she's really cracked that one! So - I got on on Saturday. The lightness that we had was amazing. I didn't have to pick up my reins once. We worked on walk - trot - back up, all from seat and life and she's really getting it. Her back ups are really light and active. I'm so proud
And yesterday (Sunday), I asked her for a couple of little canters under saddle. I wasn't expecting vast improvements, but I thought I'd just see where we were... Well... Wow is all I can say! Light, lifted forehand, and sooo balanced! At least for a few strides anyway.. The one time I asked for more than that she lost it after about 10 strides, so clearly that's all her muscles are up to at the moment. But we're getting there! Am a very proud mummy
And my power plate sessions are going well - I'm going 3 times a week, and my abs are definitely improving! So, the pair of us are getting fit together!
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| Clarissa |
This is bye the bye & a little off topic but important when thinking about back up.
I recently heard or read something about backing up where the author said that the main reason backup fails is that the que is given for too long. So it becomes a phase 4 type of thing inducing reactiveness rather than a phase 1 thing being a soft partner response. I let that rattle around in my brain a few weeks   then played with it during a riding session with Sonny. He has got tardy on the stop to backup with me again doing way too much work. And while I was playing with it I realised it might be a reason why he got to failing to stop 'way back when' when his topline dropped. (where have those darned stick prodding & whip crackin' smilie buttons gone??  )
So I would be trotting along, sit & squeeze my buttocks, open & lift my knees alternatively, & suck my belly button back to ask for backup in my body, add a rein squeeze by making a fist with my hands to slightly tighten alternatively in time with 4 steps then let the reins loose & hold my body backup strong. It didn't take very many tries for Sonny to just about lift his front end off the ground as his tried to RUN backwards. What a difference!! He is picking his feet up in the backup step instead of dragging them backwards leaving train tracks. He still has periods of 'I just don't want to do it' but he is considerably better in general & certainly putting much more effort into it. Now all I have to do is find a soft sand area & I think he'll give me a slide stop. 
So obviously the wrong thing to do is to hold a rein contact during start of the backup (which is actually during the time the horse is still moving forward). After he started to step backwards I would add a little rythmic rein to keep it going or speed it up & relax the rein again, etc. Don't get me wrong, I have never relied on reins alone for backup but I have resorted to contact to enforce a lack of response to my body signals. However I should've been letting them go again straight away instead of holding the contact. The other thing I have again started doing is backing up quite a distance, say 50m/yds or more & re-asking each time he slowed/stopped until he was flowing backwards of his own volition a few steps rather than at my continued command. Afterall backwards is a gait too, & requires the same responsibility of don't change direction, speed or gait. I wasn't doing this with Sonny because his loins were weak but with all this HT, etc he is definately getting stronger. He has a weak side to his hips/croup/saccrum too, which makes him step short on the left while backing. It manifests as bending to the left during backup due to the shorter stride on the left side hind. When he is traveling back straight I then let him roll-back & canter depart the other direction which he really enjoys. So cokey, this might help your horse too. 
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