Getting To The Feet

cynthia peterson · Getting To The Feet

Getting to the feet is the main thing in any Ray (or Buck) Clinic. I want to ask you readers what you think that means? I know I once thought a bit different about what the answer is. As time went on, I found out there was something more important yet to consider.

So, give us the answer of what YOU think it means. And maybe even how it worked for you if you can (or a lesson on why you can't make it work!)

whisperingwindfarms

It's like an onion - lots of layers.

ElaineC

Well, I can tell you how I started to figure it out.

Ron was out to give me a lesson, he's training Cappy for me. He was working with her, and getting after her with the rope halter to move back. He kept going, at a point where I would have stopped, so I asked him why he didn't stop and why I would have. I would have stopped when she leaned back.

He said he doesn't care what she does with her head, or her body. So what if her head is up in the air, or her body is leaning back, he still hasn't reached her feet, and until his idea reaches her feet, he's not going to stop. As soon as he sees one sign of movement in her feet, he'll quit.

If he quit when her head went up, or she leaned back, or she acted like she was going to move, she'd learn that as the response to the cue. By waiting for actual movement in her feet, she learns that the cue means move your feet. Not wave your head around, not lean back, not act like you're going to move - actually move.

Its actually quite a struggle for me at times, because I'm so used to reading the rest of the body language. Oh my horse is tense, oh my horse is upset. He says who cares, concentrate on the feet, are they doing what you're asking for - the rest will sort itself out, because they'll learn what you want, and calm down. Any time I find myself lost, or not being able to do what I'm trying, I realize I'm not concentrating on her hooves, but somewhere else, reading other body language.

imagele

Great question !!!!

I used to think this was just putting a foot (feet) where you wanted them - exactly where you wanted them. That in itself is a lifetime study.

But it is a whole lot more than that.

It is how they put their feet where you want them. That lesson I learnt from an instructor.

I had an instructor who did something similar to the one Elaine described - he would reward the weight shifts etc ONCE only if he was teaching it then ask for more each time. When it got to moving the feet he had a distinction between backwards and backing up. Backwards was when the horse was moving its feet but it was not soft inside or outside - he told us that was pretty much useless as a backup - all you had was the horse going from a to b Z5 first. He would ask the horse to back until the horse became soft inside and the feet got soft. If you watch that change happen how each leg is picked up changes, the knee and hock joints change how much they are bending, the horse does not make drag marks on the ground, you are more likely to get a trot backup happening rather than a walk backup, plus all the body changes that also happen. This instructor got after us in L1 to have our horses backing up rather than just going backwards. Pity our other instructors didn't. It makes a big difference (IME) later on if you teach the horse backup rather than backwards from the get go rather than letting backwards happen for any length of time. Most horses i knew well who had spent a lot of time going backwards (including two of mine) never did lose that backwards habit entirely, if the owner was not paying a lot of attention to the quality of the movement the horse would start going backwards again. The horses that were taught to backup from the get go - they lost the habit of backwards fairly easily and would backup without the person having to be really focused on a quality movement in the backup ALL the time.

It is also where their brain is when they put their feet there and what their emotional state is at the time. Horses can do the quality movements, place their feet exactly where they are asked to, for all the world they look like they are OK and still not have their brains in their head or their emotions under control. My horses taught me that one.

I had a horse who would do all sorts of things with his feet, almost foot perfect with simple things like HQ yields but his brain was somewhere on the other side of the world as he did them. Asking him to do things like half circles just did not work when he got upset, he could do that for ages, good cadence, sweeping correct strides as he turned but his brain was still gone and he was still upset. Crossing their hind legs like that is supposed to get them thinking again. He could think well enough to place his feet where i asked him to but he was still not with himself or with me at all. I was still sitting on or standing next to an unexploded bomb.

Then I discovered that one ... step ... at ... a ... time got him settled and back with me a lot quicker than asking him to yield his HQ and walk half circles (for example). Once I thought he was settling again (using whatever one step at a time task I could find) I would also often then ask him to backup one step at a time and park Z5 on something if there was somewhere safe to do that because when something touched Z5 if he was still bothered at all he would flinch. How much he flinchd, whether the size of the flinch was reducing etc was a good test of just how close his brain was to being back in his body and eventually back with me. We got to the point though where even asking him to do something that required a lot of thought and concentration from him to do still did not feel right. One time I backed him around a square of poles on the ground without him rolling poles or stepping over poles while keeping both left feet inside the poles and both right feet outside the poles for the whole way round the square. He went around the square twice (after we had blown it and moved or stepped over poles a few times) without moving or stepping over the poles and he still did not have his brain back in his head or his emotions back under control.

I had been working with Phils model for a couple of years by then and had figured out a lot of what I needed to know in terms of how to use it with my particular horses. But i still had a couple of horses that was really easily bothered and took a long time for their brain to come back if they lost it in any way/distance at all with my gelding and old mare and if she really lost it with my young mare. So I started being a bit more refined about how far I pushed them out of their comfort zones. According to most of my PNH friends I was already being way too careful around my horses and much, much, much, much too slow to move on with new things before I got to this particular refinement. I got even more careful and slower still for quite a while.

It is probably just an unrealisitic ideal but I decided that if something I asked them to do adversely affected what they did with his feet it was all my fault and I had pushed them way too far outside their comfort zone. Even though I thought they were still in their not too sure zone - it was STILL too far out of their comfort zone.

Basically - could I get them to do something new to them without the feet altering from what I wanted them to do ? For example if I was asking a horse to canter online for the first time could I get that horse to canter slowly rather than gallop madly the FIRST time it went into the canter online. Could I then adjust that canter to be faster without the horse taking off in a mad gallop ? And could I do all this just with the initial ask, not the "ask for canter, get mad gallop, stop horse going so fast so it canters instead of falling over" routine. How did I have to ask them to do new things without causing a change for the worse in what I wanted them to do or continue to do with their feet ?.

Initially I had to learn to feel and read the warning signs that the feet were about to change and do something to change what i was doing. With my original levels horse - even though she looked very dull and stubborn she was actually much more sensitive than my more extroverted horses. With her I never got to have more than a couple of seconds warning that the feet were about to change. With the more extroverted horses though I got 5 - 10 seconds with my gelding and 15 - 20 seconds with the more extreme on the extrovert scale mare. In all 3 cases though it is a LONG time in horse time for me to change what I was doing so as not to affect the feet adversely.

The more I tried to operate around them like this the more they stayed with me mentally and emotionally and the more likely even my extreme introvert was to ask me questions before changing what her feet did (in her case grow roots). It upped their self confidence hugely if all 3 horses. And it enabled them to be confident about learning new things - for the first time with any of them.

After a couple of years doing the "I dont want to affect their feet adversely" EVERYTIME I spent time with them I found that even when the feet were affected they were much more likely to decide very quickly (what is "quickly" varies for each horse) to go find their brain again if they lost it and bring it back a lot faster than they had been rather than running round like chooks with their heads cut off for a while first or turn into a huge lump of rock and shutting out the world for a few hours/days/weeks/months. (Chooks = chickens for those who are not Australian or have not heard that saying before).

They did not like feeling like headless chooks and I had quite a few instances with my gelding in particular where I could see him start to do a headless chook impersonation, choose to stop it, not be able to hold that place for long, go back to doing a headless chook impersonation, stop it, start it, stop it, start it,.... until he finally could just heave a huge sigh etc and relax and do whatever it was without any upset. All I did was watch all this happening - I had inadvertently sent him there but he was choosing and figuring out for himself how NOT to go there. The more he figured it out for himself the less he went there. He did it once about walking through a puddle. I asked him once then just waited. He walked all around one side back and forth a few times (and repeated that about 5 times in the time this all took), he ate grass calmly, he walked in as far as he could go in that moment then went backwards out at a slightly hurried pace, he looked at me waiting, went back to eating grass .... 20 minutes later he walked quite happily and calmly through the puddle. A lot of what he did during that 20 minutes was what I would class as a headless chook impersonation, the only part of the things he did i dont class as that was when he was calmly eating.

My old mare died a couple of years ago so I dont know if she would have ever gotten to this point but in the last couple of years both my other horses then started to learn new things and stay entirely within their comfort zone as they do so. Or so it appears. Not all the time but often enough for me to know this is not a fluke. They have none of their usual physical signs that they are leaving their comfort zone happening while they are learning something new and I cant feel any emotional upset happening either.

The first time was when Phil started my mare in 2007. She learnt A LOT but I saw very few signs other than the length of her processing time when he stopped for a break that showed she was firstly learning anything new and secondly had been pushed out of her comfort zone to do so. The first physical sign I've found that she is getting out of her comfort zone is one screwed up nostril - that happened very rarely in the time Phil spent with her.

Prior to him starting her I had found that the length of their processing time after I stopped teaching a new thing (compared to what was normal for each horse) told me how difficult it actually was for them. Usually the more upset they got or the more difficult it was for them to figure out or the more new things I put into a teaching session (I used to keep it to one new thing if I could but sometimes that is not possible) the longer the time they took to process. I could guess often if it would be a longer or a shorter waiting time than was usual with them based on what had happened while we were doing whatever it was. With Phil though my mare had some extremely long processing times for her (10 - 15 minutes) but she was not getting at all bothered while he was teaching her most of the time. She has the shortest proccessing times of all my horses (usually hers are somewhere between 2 seconds and 2 minutes) with me, my old mare typically had 1 - 2 hours of processing time.

There may have been more going on with Phil than I saw at the time or can see on the videos of her colt start now, in fact I am sure there was. Just what it was or how to do what he did though - I'm still figuring that one out.

What I have now found with my horses is that after all that time being so careful about what they did with their feet when I asked for something that might bother them, now it does not matter if their feet show they are bothered. The mental and emotional habits they learnt while i was being so careful now also work when the horse shows me physically by changing its feet that it is upset. Most of my time with this topic now is spent trying to decide if this time changing the feet will or wont matter in terms of how long it is likely to take them to "get" whatever it is I want them to do". Sometimes it matters and I go more carefully, sometimes it does not matter at all. Or maybe I am just a lot more aware and able now than I was to help them be OK when the feet change than I was 7 years ago. Who kows, it has been a lot of fun figuring it all out though.

Thunder Hollow

Guest

There are definitely many levels of getting to the feet-- on the green horse getting to the feet is where you are going to get control- and then on a more experienced horse it is the "feel" we are looking for. I think that you get to the feet when there is no disturbance between the riders motion and body and the horses foot- so when you lift your hand it is in complete unity with the lift of the foot off the ground. I think you get there by not releasing on a braced horse, waiting for the horse to offer you some softness before you quit-- and that takes time. It is the Feel, Timing, Balance thing again. It is what sets apart this style of horsemanship-- Getting the horse to think all the way down to the ground- and not run through the rider at all--and I think that is respect-- but it is developed by being soft.
That reminds me of this Tom D quote--True Unity and willing Communication between the horse and me is not something that can be handed to someone-it has to be learned. IT has to come from the inside of a person and the inside of a horse.

bit

After 30 some years of riding, I think I finally had this experience, and it's opened up so much for me. Now, I know I'm only scratching the surface, but after 7 years of doing tasks, I am finally feeling like I understand what's behind the tasks. Thanks to Tom and his dvd. I watched him use a pattern to help a horse and saw how the rider gave the horse leadership by moving his feet. That rider reached out to the horse and offered him comfort and the horse just melted into to it, and was so grateful.
I did the task with Eclipse, but I understood what was behind it, (finally) and experienced leadership, timing, and feel for the first time. It's changed everything. She needs me to direct her feet, her mind, and her emotions. Like I said in a previous post, I learned the difference between being a passenger and horsemanship. Big moment for me.

Thunder Hollow

Guest

I think something I missed for years - is releasing with every step-- that really helps make it about the feet. I think I would use steady pressure for the back up and only release when I got all the steps I wanted-- seems to work better to ask for each step and then stop when it is soft- or softer than it was at first.

imagele

cynthia peterson

There have been so many good posts on this thread! I am sure it has helped many people.

I guess I kinda' got the real meaning of the "getting to the feet" when Buck did that step around exercise. Buck has you get them soft between the legs and hands, and (very important!) always ready to go forward. That keeps them lively and feeling your energy. This is by far the biggest thing missing in Parelli. It gets so you have the foot in your hand, first with the rein, then just in that keeping them between the bridle and legs. It gets so there is hardly a rein. But before that you get to that stage, you feel the foot and reach it over. Of course, this is not even possible without having some kind of balanced seat to begin with. If you are leaning left or right, head tipped down or such, it's going to darn hard for the horse to get it.

So, keep on posting.

cynthia peterson

PS, and "in the hand" means not a hand. People think the reins are held in the hands. A true horseman only uses the fingers, like a piano player. If you have them in a hand, which is more or less in the palm or fist, you are being way to firm. It's all in a supple back, supple fingers.

Thunder Hollow

cynthia peterson

Oh, I most certainly agree. The whole point is to get the horse's focus totally on you (and of course, you have the same focus back) And as mentioned in another poster, you can get the horse to do this things without the focus too. But, it just isn't the same thing. Looks the same sometimes, but it just the horse doing it mindless. It was what is called "blurring" through the whole thing. Just like when you had to memorize something in school (under threat of failing, staying after school or a rap with the ruler from the teacher) It isn't likely you remebered it, or enjoyed it after you didn''t have to. This is teaching the horse we can be partners in this. And as to the backup. Some horses are sure tougher on that then anything else. Ray and Buck have something like the yoyo backup and foreward like Pat did. A little more finessly, but of course Pat was teaching another type crowd. My point being maybe Pat does know something more about this then it seems. He certainly is the master of trailer loading, a good sign. Then he does something and I say, what

?

Horse Gypsy

I have even begun thinking of riding more from where the motion originates in my body- and how that effects the feet. If I can start lifting the rein by dropping my shoulder and lifting my chest slightly- that activates the foot even before it gets down to my hand.
I am lovin' the piano analogy-- that is how is should feel in the hands-- That is what makes riding poetry in motion.

imagele

Clarissa

bit

Ok guys, I really want to get this because it's the key to my horses mind, and I rarely see it. Maybe she rarely sees mine, too. I don't know. When I started riding again, it was trail riding, and that consisted of being a passenger, with my friends, who were also passengers, enjoying the view, good conversation and a bit of going fast. Not right brained fast, but flying along like the kids we weren't. I think it's typical riding for most people.
Now I can't even go riding with other people, because they are so disconnected with their horses, my horse is even more mindless when with them. Her mind goes where the other horses minds are. Certainly not with me. I can't even say I know what a horse feels like when her mind is with me. (brief experience of maybe) I do know when it's not, and it's not. On the ground, yes. I can take her anywhere, and on the ground, we are good. I think. See?
What I'm getting is, every horse needs something different from the human, to get to the mind and hold it. It takes time to figure that out, and the key is the feet. Dave Ellis is the only one I've ever seen that deals with this. I was auditing, and I don't seem to be able to wrap my brain around stuff by just watching. I have to do it. So even though I saw him do some stuff with other horses and people, it wasn't with me or my horse, so it lay on top of my brain like oil on water.
How bout some exercises, be specific, on what I can try with my lbi, sensitive, somewhat dominate, mare that will help me get the FEELING of how to do this? Now that I know about the mind, and how important it is to connect with it, and maintain that connection throughout the ride, it isn't so fun riding without it. Can we get into some detail about connecting in the saddle? You talk about lifting the hand, but slightly with piano fingers, to back. Ok, so WHICH hand? I have one hand, two feet per side. What are the feet doing? I know, think "back", and feel that in my body, but what do I do with my body? Eyes? Shoulders, hips? Some people really lean back when they stop. Some don't seem to move.
How bout moving forward? Without you here, how does someone that is just finding out about this figure it out?
I have an email in to a guy that trained with Harry Whitney. He lives about an hour away, and hoping to set something up with him. I feel like riding is almost wasted time if I'm not getting Eclipse's mind. Just more time to set her up for bad habits. I'll have to fix everything I'm doing now, because I do not have her mind.

Blue Flame

Bit, have you been working on timing footfalls and timing and releasing your aids to the footfalls?

We were working on this yesterday and can emphatically say that we had a better horse (more ok, more with us, softer, more contented) after the 15 minute ride than before it. During the ride the horse started rearranging his body, neck and back stretching, neck telescoping, better stride etc. We ended the ride after 15 minutes to reinforce all the positives before any chance of something negative creeping in - plus I think the rider was mentally exhausted. Even after the ride when we were just hanging out under a tree grazing and sheltering from the rain, the horse was more communicative and kept interrupting his eating to check in.

As far as what cue does what, our simplistic view goes like:

direct rein - front foot same side
indirect rein - hind foot opposite side
leg forward - front foot same side
leg back - hind foot same side

For backup we are experimenting with lifting the reins alternatively in time with each front foot. It's not our best gait but is slowly improving - i.e getting softer and more often 2 beat versus 4 beat, but no signs of any speed in it yet.

My thinking is, and this is probably important to a LBI horse, cueingtiming/releasing each foot individually reduces the pressure on the horse by 3/4. That's because pressure is only applied when the horse is in a position to respond to it. Alternatively, if we hold a cue constantly regardless of footfall, then 3/4 of the time we are cueing - the horse is not in a position to respond and it could be percieved as nagging. I'd even go so far as to say it might equate to more than 3/4 pressure if we factor in the psychological effect on the horse of not being able to respond - because cueing when they cannot respond "puts your horse in a bind". Therefore, using a constant cue could in effect be binding the horse up for 3/4 of the time it is applied. I use 3/4 to reflect the fact that in a 4 beat walk, the leg you are cueing is only able to respond 1/4 of the time a constant cue is held.

Furthermore, it takes some considerable concentration, focus and mindfulness on the part of the rider to time communications with footfalls - and that is just one foot at a walk. Yesterday, the horse seemed to respond to the rider's mindfulness just out of the sheer concentration of it - whether a cue was being used or not. It seemed that just the focus on timing alone would bring the horse's mind to the rider.

Does that help or have I totally misunderstood your question?

kristie

bit

um, is New Zealand too far to ask you to come and spend a few days?????
I'm going to copy, paste and print this stuff and then head down the road and see if my friend, Susan can put your words into my actions. This is so much like skiing, after a certain level. It gets deep, subtle, and took me working with some of the best skiers out there to really get what I needed to know to get to a high level. I never would have gotten there on my own. I'm going to need someone on the ground watching me and the horse, that knows horsemanship and knows how to read a horse. I don't think I'm going to figure this out on my own.

I printed out your post, Blue Flame and drove it down to Susan's. I asked if this was something that she understood and could teach. She has me bringing Eclipse down to her indoor arena and wants me to just sit on her bare back and feeling her body move. Said to let her stand there, and she'd get bord and shift, so feel that. Feel what it feels like when she moves different parts of her body, and then we are going to do a lesson tomorrow.
I'll let ya know how it goes. Hey, this is better than ignorance. Most folks only want an obedient robot. They don't know what they don't have. Now that I know, I can't do it any other way. I'm on a mission!

whisperingwindfarms

bit

Or he'd tell me to take up bowling!

whisperingwindfarms

Blue Flame

Bit, you might like to visit Larry's thread Feeling for Footfalls. Lots of different suggestions in there about different ways to learn it and Larry posted a link there to a good article on feeling for footfalls.

Here's a couple of tidbits we've experienced through ex-PP Chip Johnson about getting to the feet - or about getting to the mind through the feet.

First was at a clinic where he had us circling the horses on 22' ropes. Pretty soon the horses had done 9 or 10 circles and, as adherents to Pats anti-lunging campaign, everyone was beginning to ask Chip, "How long do we keep going?" Chip replied, "Until they relax". Chip used to talk about something he called "argument" when reading the horses. He'd liken them to grumpy old men who have a need to argue and complain for a bit before they settle down and get on with the job. He never said it was a bad thing - more like something they need to get out of their system. So in this case it was like, "Thank you for your opinion - please keep circling"'. So it wasn't just the act of moving the feet, it was waiting for the horse to settle into the task.

We could relate this to the recent discussion in another thread about allowing the horse to come into his own pressure. In this case we set the horse up circling on line and then leave him out there to sort out his own issues - the complaining at having to exert himself, the arguing - this is pressure the horse brings to the task of circling, his own pressure. So when Chip said keep going until they relax, maybe this was to allow the horse time to sort through the attitudes etc. that he brought with him from the stable/corral/pasture - and then once the horse had dealt with his own attitudes and issues, he no longer needed to waste any more energy on them and could relax into the movement.

So one aspect of getting to the feet is looking for the change - something Pat has talked about. Noticing a positive change in the horse along with being able to "hang tight and rattle" to give the horse time to find it. Of course there is also the caveats "Don't let them be wrong for too long". Another trap we fell into today was that, instead of accepting a little positive change, we were waiting for something better and unfortunately kept at the task for too long. As the horse began to tire (I could see him getting longer in the body) it became more difficult for him to carry himself well (which was the change we were looking for). So we finally called it good when he made a big effort at self carriage - even if he didn't quite pull it off. In hindsight, we should've stopped for a rest much sooner and allowed him to re-oxygenate his muscles.

Then there was something I saw Chip do with his Cleveland Bay X Andalusian - the aptly named Peter Pan. This is more to do with communication with not only individual feet - but individual communication with more than one foot simultaneously.

Chip rode his name in the sand and after finishing each letter, he would have Peter Pan hop his forehand over then hop his HQ over to begin the next letter. When I say hop, I mean both feet in the air simultaneously - not stepping one over then the other. To put the dot on the "i" , Peter Pan got up on his haunches and struck forward into the sand with both front feet simultaneously, then balanced on his haunches again and lifted both front feet up again to bring them back in underneath himself. We stood there mouths agape (again) and all Chip said was, "Horses love people with imagination". That was one of those days where he'd previously had us doing the feet on frisbee tasks.

Horse Gypsy

The easiest way I have found to figure out foot falls while riding is to pay attention to the swing of the ribs-- when the ribs are all the way over toward the right the left hind is underneath you- so if you encourage the swing by using your leg you encourage the left hind leg to step under more. Then you just have to keep the diagonal in mind. But getting the hind legs has really helped me ride the horse and the feet. Plus then you start to feel the motion of the back when the hind leg is stepping under the muscles contract on that side, and release on the other side- so you can time the movement of your seat bones to the movement of the back-- and that way you stay out of the way also and help the horse move better. I think there is a really good digital video image of that motion on "If horses Could speak".

bit

Thanks to a lot of encouragement here, I've gone back into taking lessons, and the person that I'm taking lessons from understands timing and feel. She asked me if I wanted to be on a lounge line, or use my reins and I told her to treat me like someone that didn't know anything. We did the lounge line. Today I learned the feel of when the horses back foot is about to leave, that's when you cue, and you know when it is because your hip comes up, too. I learned my horse doesn't bend well to the left. I learned how to ask her to do it, and then let her relax, then bend, then relax. I learned that the entire side of your body tells your horse what to do, like when bending, your ribcage bends as you think about asking.
Today, Eclipse was with me through the whole ride. Considering we were in an unfamiliar indoor arena, the wind was screaming, and the windows were making an ominous, haunted house kind of sound the whole time, having her mind for the whole ride was very cool. Because I was moving her feet, the right way. This is cool stuff, you guys.

Blue Flame

Sounds like you've got some fantastic help there in Susan.

We are just trying to feel/muddle our way through it using information mostly provided on this forum - but because we make up a horse/rider/groundperson team, we're probably having an easier time of it than someone trying to do it all on their own.

Currently, we've finally learned the tools necessary for shaping the horse WITHOUT forcing him or pulling on his head or mouth - finally learned how we can help him move better and find the sweet spot. He seems to appreciate what we're trying to do and tries hard to work with us.

It seems that nowadays, there are so many things we can do that it becomes a case of choosing which ones we want for the day and trying to keep ourselves from doing too much in any one session.

A word of warning though, once a horse knows you know this, they might get a bit cranky if you revert back to not using it.

Blue Flame

I forgot to add . . . .

Bit, if you wouldn't mind, I'd love to read about your lessons in more detail to check against my own understanding - which is far from complete.

Please don't assume that I or anyone else here has an advanced understanding of this stuff - we're all learning and I know that I personally would benefit greatly if you would relate your journey in the aspects of footfall timing and body shaping.

Examples:

What specifically were you shown for bending the horse?

What cue were you taught to time with which foot leaving the ground?

Did you see or feel differences or changes in the quality of the gait during your lesson?

kristie

bit

What specifically were you shown for bending the horse?

Bending included a shift of the seat to the outside, to open the door and get out of the horses way. Bending your own rib cage mirroring the same bend you are asking for from your horse. (no leaning) The leg cue comes from the inside leg, pressure at the calf. Direct rein tipping the nose in, pulsing with the leg cue as the inside back leg lifts. You know it's time to cue because the horse moves your hips up and forward as the back leg leaves the ground. This is when you want to cue, AS the foot leaves, not before, not after. You can also feel the ribs move out of your way as that hind foot comes off the ground and moves forward. So cue a bit before that, just as the leg begins to lift. She had me on a lounge line at first, feeling when that happened. At first she told me, and then once I could feel it, I knew just from the feel.
When she demo'd on her horse, I didn't see anything at all going on, but her horse bent. I asked her to hop on Eclipse, because I needed to see the teaching process with a horse that didn't know what you were asking.
The inside rein was lifted more, really exaggerated down and out, with an obvious pulse, more leg pressure, but as she circled, she did less because Eclipse was willing to try, to keep her out of her mouth. Tom talks about this, I think. If the horse knows what you are asking, he'll respond to your lightest cue, just to keep you out of his mouth. So with her horse, it was enough to bend her ribs, a little calf pressure, and her horse was bending.

What cue were you taught to time with which foot leaving the ground?

Again, leg and inside rein pulsing as the back inside foot leaves the ground. Of course you shift you weight, bend your ribs, first. This is the teaching cues. After the horse understands, you cue until the horse responds. If that's just a shift in the seat and a bend of your ribs, fine. Susan's horse worked great just with that and I think a little calf pressure.

Did you see or feel differences or changes in the quality of the gait during your lesson?

I did learn that Eclipse bends one way better than the other, as does most horses. You know because the side they don't bend well on, the circle will tend to get smaller as they fall in on their shoulder. On that side you spend more effort maintaining the circle. That's where you need to work on getting your horse's body balanced, and equally as supple on one side as the other. There are some good exercises for that.
Oh, all during this (walking only for me for now) I had to move my hips with the horse. I am surprised, I thought I was. Once I did, it was like we were dancing, and doing the same dance. In step with one another, so that when I did stop riding, she stopped really nice. No "whoa", reins, or anything else needed. Before, I had to say "whoa", sit down, and use my reins a little. When I sped up my seat a little, she increased the length of her stride and moved out. When I slowed it down, she matched it and slowed down. She listened to my seat, and if it changed, she did. That's where I think I noticed her mind with me. Except for some directional issues due to her lack of suppleness, it was all happening from the seat. I didn't even have to ask with my calf for her to speed up. I stayed in the same place in the saddle, and she worked right off my seat. I don't know what she was like before, but yesterday her hq's were under her, reaching nicely and she was very relaxed.
Now, was she relaxed because I finally had her mind? I think so. The wind was screaming, and even though we were in an indoor arena, walls were rattling, and the windows were making hunted house noises. Both her ears were on me, and she was listening to me. Nothing else mattered to her. No looking out when she got to the gate, no avoiding me or pressure, no responding to noises or even the cats that kept darting across the arena playing chicken. No trying to stop, either. She was totally with me, and I wasn't thinking about my riding one bit. Only keeping time with my butt, using my cues, and paying attention to how little I could do to get her to do what I asked. We did all this with my saddle pad and Parelli bare back pad on top of that, so I could really feel the horse. I guess it's best to do it naked, but Eclipse as back issues, so I didn't want to sit right on her with my bony butt, and I have back issues and didn't want to come off, so the bareback pad with under pad helped us both be more comfortable.

Blue Flame

Thanks for taking the time to type that all out. I'm going to take a little while to digest it all - especially this bit . . . .

bit

I'm reading The Far Away Horses by Buck Brannaman. Had me laughing out loud last night. He was having trouble with a horse bending (not the funny part) and was sick about how he felt he was not helping the horse. He didn't know Bill Dorrance, but they had a mutual friend, so he was able to meet him and ask how he could help his horse. Bill told him, and I'm paraphrasing here, something about the key being in the hg's. Buck just thought he didn't listen to his question till he got on his horse and took him out to just go ride. Felt so bad, he thought he'd quit torturing the horse and go enjoy the day with him. He finally tried what Bill had suggested and the horse gave him a perfect, bendy spin. That's where I left off last night. I can retype the story here if you like, it was a good one, so let me know. It was the most simple suggestion, and worked a miracle with his horse.

cynthia peterson

Oh, yes, Bit,~ that is a good story! Go ahead and give it to us all. I think there is a lot to learn with that one...

I read somewhere that Buck got a job on a ranch as a young man (as a buckaroo) where Ray came a lot. Ray seemed to take a special interest in Buck. Carolyn and Ray pretty much took him in as family. With Buck's past life, this pretty much has a special meaning even beyond the horses.

I love that book (The Fay Away Horses)

cynthia peterson

And Bit~ It is pretty common for people to not use their hips enough. Even when walking on the ground! Many Dr.s think this is a reason people develope lower back pain, because they use other muscles to move their legs then to swing the hips. Can you wonder how hard that is on the horse?! Thank you so much Bit taking the time to tell us your lesson.

bit

Learning to Listen pg. 87
While I was riding colts for the public at Spanish Creek, I was having trouble with a roan horses. I'd been working for a while on getting him to turn around and on getting him balanced. By "ballanced" I mean getting him so he'd move the same way in both directions. At that point he was pretty much the same on both sides, but it was sticky going either way.
It was early morning on a fine summer day. As I looked over the top rail of the round pen, the only sound was that of my horse catching his breath. Through the steady rhythm, I realized how desperate I was to solve the problem. Nothing seemed to work. I did everything I thought was correct; for example, I tried leading with my right rein and supporting with my left rein against the base of his neck and putting my left heel against his side. Still, I didn't get any response. I couldn't get the horse to put out any effort. If I asked him to put any effort into turning to work a cow, he wouldn't go any faster. It was as if he was going in slow motion. The more I kicked and the more I pulled, the worse it got.
I was frustrated to the pint of tears. I couldn't seem to make any headway.
Now, Montana may be short on population, but it fills the void with a fine lot of colloquialisms. "If you don't get it, you'd better be barking at the hole," is one of them. It means "keep trying."
I knew I needed some guidance, and since Ray Hunt was off doing a clinic and I had no way of getting ahold of him, I figured it was worth a call to Bill Dorrance.
Bill was Tom Dorrance's brother. He and I hadn't met yet, but for years Mike Beck, a good friend from the Madison River days, had been telling me aobut the man's horsemanship. They had spent quite a bit of time together on Bill's ranch near Salinas, California, and according to Mike, Bills' skill with a bridle horse and the way he handled a rope were legendary. If I was ever to be a Jedi I needed an Obi-Wan, so I took a deep breath and called him.
"Bill, you don't know who I am," I stammered, "but I need some help with my horse. Mike Beck told me what a great horseman you are, and I've admired the things you've shown him. I hope you can help."
He didn't say anything, so I went on. "My horse turns around pretty good, but I can't seem to get him to put any effort into it." I told him all the things I had done with the horse, how frustrated I had become, and how worried I was that I was pushing this nice little horse harder than he deserved.
When Bill finally spoke, he acted as if he'd never heard a word I said. He started talking about the hindquarters. "You know, Buck, if you can move the hindquarters right or left, you can get his body arranged to where he can do some things that you didn't think he could do."
I just sat there and thought, how sad. Poor Bill has gotten so much age on him that he didn't hear what I asked him. I suppose I was hoping that Bill would tell me just to take the tail end of my McCarty rein and whack the horse across the shoulder, or maybe to turn my toe out and use my spur to move his front quarters. I had no idea why he was talking about moving the hindquarters right or left.
I asked him again, "How can I get my horse to turn around a little sharper so I can get him to work a cow a little better?"
Again he said, "You know, if a fellow can get a horse reaching backward a little bit, it will help him. It's amazing how much the hindquarters have to do with all the things you do with a horse to get a job done."
There he goes again, I told myself, he's talking about the hindquarters and avoiding my problem. It was as if he hadn't heard a word I said.
I asked Bill one more time what I should do about my problem with the front quarters because I was sure that's where the problem was. Again we ended up talking about the hindquarters. I decided that no matter how I asked him about the specifics of my problem, he wasn't able to understand me.
I decided to give up on it for that day, and we finished our conversation talking about horses we had ridden and folks we both knew. I thought we'd just had a nice conversation. At least I'd had the chance to talk to the legendary Bill Dorrance, which really meant a lot to me. So I left the other part alone.

bit

Learning to listen, cont.

The next day I went down to the barn to see the horse. I stood there looking into his eyes as he ate. I felt sorry for him, and I felt sorry for myself. I was feeling down on my self about the way I had been with the horse. I had been riding him really hard for a few days just to get this one fast turn out of him, and it wasn't fair of me. So I decided I would just take a ride and not fight with him. That day we would simply enjoy each other. We'd take a ride out through the hills, and I wouldn't ask him to do anything difficult or anything I didn't think we could do.
It was the fall of the year, and the leaves had started turning up in the aspens. I sensed the urgencies of that seem to effect the change of seasons, and I got to thinking then about other kinds of changes, too. Perhaps this horse thing was something I wasn't going to be able to do very well. Maybe I'd rekindle my trick-roping career because I'd been pretty successful at that.
All throughout that ride I just tried to leave the horse alone, but on the way back to the barn, I stopped. The message Bill had given me kept creeping into my brain. I decided to see whether, If I could stop the horse with one rein and untrack his hindquarters a little bit. I just might get him to step over behind.
When I tried to do what Bill had so subtly suggested, my rein felt as if it was tied off to a big rock or the back of a truck going the other way. I couldn't get the horse to budge in the direction I was asking him to go. He hardly had any bend in him at all. I couldn't get hime to step over with his hindquarters (move his hindquarters right or left), and that kind of surprised me.
And so I worked on getting him to step over. As down on myself as I was that day, I figured I could at least accomplish that much. At least I could get him to bend.
After much leg-pressure urging, I got the horse to untrack his hindquarters a little bit, to step over hehind and bend more through his loin and rib cage. He had a little more "give" on the end of the rein, and was a little more supple in his movements. He felt lighter in my hands.
After having accomplished that little bit, I tried to keep my promise to the horse not to bother or pick on him, so I started back to the barn with a loose rein. But something continued to eat at me. I asked the horse to turn around over his hindquarters. And to my great surprise, he spun so fast that he reminded me of Ayatollah's high-velocity turns, yet he was relaxed.

bit

(Ayatollah was a horse Buck decided to spin, and I guess it was a pretty right brain spin. Buck used a coat held out to the side to move the horse, and that horse didn't take it too well. He spun so fast that he threw Buck part way out of the saddle, off to the side. The only reason Buck didn't come off was because his spur got caught in the back of the saddle. He did eventually get launched off that horse. The horse kicked him in the ear when he came off, too) Back to the book...

I did this once, and then, remembering the other roan horse with a sagebrush stuck in his butt, I reminded myself, "You know, you better leave that horse alone because it's not going to get any better than this, that's for sure. The way you've been riding the last few days, you'll probably wreck it in the next few minutes." So I walked a brisk walk back to the barn and unsaddled the horse before I destroyed what I'd been trying to get.
While I was putting my gear away, I reviewed what had happened. There was no way I was going to get that horse to turn around any faster without freeing up his hind end. Somewhere along the line I'd lost the hindquarters. I'd had control of them at one pint, but I got so busy trying to be a "horse trainer" ---and I say that with much chagrin--I'd lost bthe basics that prepares any horse in the first place.
I also reviewed my own attitude. "I'll be damned," I told myslef, "Bill tried to tell me which end of the horse needed work, but I couldn't hear it."

Well guys, there's more, but you get the idea. Buck summed it up by saying, "That was characteristic of Bill Dorrance's approach. He had the answer, but he never tried to ram it down my throat. That hadn't been my way: I thought I had the answer, and I had been trying to ram it down the horse's throat."

PasoBaby_CarolU

Thanks for typing all that out. I don't own the book. It's an interesting point that all good horsemanship has to come to. I see this a lot in the gaited world, people putting bigger bosals and harsher bits to get a headset for collection and gait. I try to tell them they working on the wrong end of the horse, but it's deaf ears unless you talk to someone who really wants to understand HOW a horse works. Many ride all hollow and braced and don't even realize they're riding the horse wrong and hurting him.

Good lesson..and a good reminder.

Blue Flame

bag lady

Thanks, heartfelt thanks for copying all that out Bit!!
I feel stunned because this is a problem I am having with my youngster and I cannot believe that I have been at my wits end trying to figure it out and then I find this thread and read what buck said and I can see some solutions

Thanks for the most fortuitiously timed part to this thread thumbup

Jack

Here's an article detailing Martin Blacks thoughts on riding with weight on the outside stirrup when bending. It's been a while since I read this myself.

http://www.martinblack.net/downloads/WH-01-08.pdf

Might be worth taking a look at.

Jack

kristie

Jack

Jack

bit

Thanks to a $%#@ snowboarder, I have a back injury and tend to hunch when I ride. My front end overload doesn't help one bit. Back surgery and breast reduction are in my immediate future, but I was amazed how much it got in the way. I didn't even realize I was on Eclpse's front like I was. Thought I was sitting right. Wasn't. As soon as I got off her front end, it freed up her shoulders, and she started bended real nice.
I'm looking for a Myler comfort snaffle, don't have a lot of money to work with, so be gentle. If you have one laying around, let me know, and we can talk.
Also doing those "uber" exercised on Carolyn Resnick's blog, good video demo, and Eclipse loves them. So, between Tom, Ray, Bill, Buck, and ya'll, I think I might have a pretty good chance to give my horse the good deal. Liked the article a lot, and seemed like he wrote it with just me in mind. It all helps.

Blue Flame

I know this is the Tom, Bill & Ray section, but on this subject I was watching a video interview with Jack Brainard and was struck with what he said . . .