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creekwood

Gunners Rad's- new Eponas are on... video added

This is Gunner, Debs  4 year old appendix paint gelding. These were taken in June, when he was at K-State for an abcess (at toe). I started trimming him at the beginning of July. He is still ouchy on both fronts. He lands heel first, but has really short strides. He doesn't have the long toes anymore.
I was wondering if anyone has seen a bone spur on the tip of the coffin bone like he has? I talked to the vet from K-state, and he didn't think it would cause any problems. I would love to hear everyone's thoughts.
Left front (with bone spur)

Right front
calatar

Did the vet say anything about his rotation?
Blue Flame

Is that a creena on his left front - looks like a cavity in the whiteline at the toe.
bit

That's the hole they dug in his foot trying to get to that abscess.  Dr. Beard at K State said rotation is only one or two degrees and not concerned.  Said today he was not concerned about the bone spur on his coffin bone.  He's ok in boots, still ouchy.  I'll let Kelsey post the particulars on what she is doing as far as trim and diet.
imagele

Do you have an xray taken from above the LF ?
Kim Cassidy

I don't really see a bone spur, I see coffin bone remodeling from the thin soles that your horse appears to have.

My biggest concern would be to get some kind of impression material on the bottom of the foot and then shoes (I would use the Epona's).  

You could try casting the foot as well, that might get you fast relief if you can't find a good hoof care professional.

In cases like this I see the bone remodel from all the pressure of the coffin bone pinching on the ground.

NO SOLE DEPTH!!!  Protect, protect.

Do you have actual photos of the feet?
RickB.

Re: Gunners Rad's- osteophyte on coffin bone??

creekwood wrote:
He is still ouchy on both fronts. He lands heel first, but has really short strides. He doesn't have the long toes anymore.

Considering the lack of sole depth it is not at all surprising that he moves this way.
Quote:
I was wondering if anyone has seen a bone spur on the tip of the coffin bone like he has?

As noted, that is not a bone spur, rather it is the tip of p3 remodelong as a result of the pressure placed on the distal leading edge of p3 by botyh the thinness of the sole under p3 and the incorrect orientation of p3 due to its inappropriate rotation.
Quote:
I talked to the vet from K-state, and he didn't think it would cause any problems.

The horse is unsound.  That's a problem.

XXX

Kim has suggested shoeing the horse, and I agree, though I might not use Eponas.  Failing that, you might want to cinsider adding SoleGuard by Vettec to your trimming protocol.
learningthedance

Re: Gunners Rad's- osteophyte on coffin bone??

post from RickB. "This post is awaiting approval by a mod/admin before it will be shown to other users."


And this accomplishes what??

My goodness.
Kim Cassidy

Re: Gunners Rad's- osteophyte on coffin bone??

learningthedance wrote:
post from RickB. "This post is awaiting approval by a mod/admin before it will be shown to other users."


And this accomplishes what??

My goodness.


Oh brother...

Rick is on moderation, I'm sure he has something of value to add, but you'll have to wait til one of the Mod's approves the message, THEN, MAYBE, it will accomplish something.
Newfman

Hi Creekwood,

Quick note first.  This isn't an osteophyte, as that is something that happens in an articulation, aka, a joint.  Osteophytes are typically a calcification, a build-up within a joint that is typically the by-product of arthritis or an arthritic/degenerative condition.  You may also know them by the term, Bone Spur.  What I see on the RF toe rad. looks like an artifact.  It could be as simple as a small lateral crease made by a wayward rasp on the outer hoof wall, that has a small amount of crap in it.  Just a guess, as you have the hoof.

I don't think a "Creena", as they tend not to be that radiopaque.  If a creena is supposed to be what I think KC Lapierre was trying to describe...that is actually a keratoma.  They tend to have a little more regulartity in shape, more 'girth' and be more bullet shaped, pointing in at the coffin bone.  They can make a very impressive swath right down the dorsal wall of the coffin bone.  There is no mistaking that, on a 60degree DPPD view.  As was previously suggested, a 60 degree DPPD radiograph could be taken to ensure it isn't an internal issue.  Not a bad idea on this horse, given the history and conformation of these hooves.  It would give a little better look at the condition of the coffin bone, and you could get a better view of the navicular bone as well.

For some reason, I thought I had asked before if this horse was club footed or hi-lo, but don't remember the response.  I think I saw a body photo of him at some point but it was hard to see by the angle of the photo.  I guess we have our answer.

So here are a few things I am seeing.





This foot is obviously long toed.  There is capsular distortion, "rotation" of 16 degrees as indicated by the green lines.  The Yellow line represents the "new growth" angle and it parallels the dorsal aspect of the coffin bone.  The alignment of P3 to P2 shows relatively no coffin bone rotation.  I would be pretty agressive about getting this toe back.  

You can see the corium/lamina 'halo' along the dorsal aspect of the coffin bone, stays pretty parallel until about half way down.  At that point it starts to widen and distort with the hoof wall.  That is the lamina stretching and tearing.  Can't be very comfortable.  Shorten those toes and bevel them from underneath to get that area out of play until you have well connected hoof wall growing there.  

The palmar angle is a bit steep at 8.5 degrees.  Typically 0-5 degrees is appropriate for a barefoot horse.  That is a matter of conformation and proper trimming technique.  I would consider lowereing him over time to around the 3 degree point.  

The bony column alignment isn't perfect, but nothing to write home about.

The bone density appears good in the navicular bone, but this isn't really the view to study the that.

Unfortunately, the coronary band wasn't marked in these views, and it makes it harder to see.  I've marked the general path with the pink dots.  A good hoof will have those dots running through the upper part of the coffin joint.  This shows that the bony column is descended.  You will have to address the lamina connection first, and then work on distal descent.  This is causing pressure on the soles and protective foot wear would be appropriate.  Pads and boots on hard surfaces is sufficient.  Cast and pads won't add anything in my opinion, other than expense.  If you cannot be around to take care of booting, and cleaning, then casts are an option.  If this horse is on pasture, i would recommend a grazing muzzle, and a nutritional work-up.  If the pasture isn't loaded with rocks, then barefoot on the pasture would be good, and boots in rocky, hard areas.

The coffin bone in this foot looks pretty good, aside from a little sidebone, but that isn't surprising.  The joint spacing is better than I would have thought as well.

There is a periosteal reaction that you can see developing on the lower dorsal aspect of P2.  The is developmental low, non-articular ringbone.  That tells me there are some stresses at the connection of the ligaments there.  That would be a hoof conformation thing in this case, in my opinion.  Active ringbone is painfull.  





This foot looks a little clubby.  You will be dealing with that hole for awhile.  Did they actually get puss drainage out of there?  I don't see a 'gas' line in the dorsal wall, so it surprises me that he had a significant abscess.  These things don't always show up though.

The angles you can read, so I won't repeat all of that.  This coffin bone has some remodelling going on.  There is just a slight bony proliferation developing at tip of P3.  Also, if you look at the dorsal wall, it isn't crisp.  It is fuzzy looking.  In my opinion this is inflammation, and you could expect that to be pretty uncomfortable.  Pedal osteitis is coming to mind.  Discuss that with the Vet.  

Their looks to be bone density changes in the coffin bone as well, as the darker inner area seems to be losing ground to the harder cortical bone on the outside.  I would really consider a 60 DPPD on this foot to look at the edges (solar margins) of the coffin bone and look for bone loss, and widening vascular channels.  It would be an opportunity to see if there are enlarged vascular channels in the navicular bone as well.  If you take him back, opt for a navicular skyline view as well.  It should only be another $50 +/- and would be an important view on this foot.  

Financial ruin...the other meaning of the word "broke" in reference to horses.

The toe on this foot should be reduced agressively as well.  There is a chunk of wall connection and exposed lamina there.  That toe is just going to pull on the already compromised connection.  Another possibility for discomfort.  Again...just my opinion.

Again with the P2 issue.  Developing low, non-articular ringbone.  Also the distal interphalangeal joint on this foot looks a bit wide. Possibly inflammation and or edema.  

Some distal descent, but to a lesser degree.  Protect this foot like the other.

Good luck.

Dennis
RickB.

Newfman wrote:
Hi Creekwood,

Quick note first.  This isn't an osteophyte, as that is something that happens in an articulation, aka, a joint.

Not always in the joint(articular), often around the joint(peri-articular)
Quote:
 What I see on the RF toe rad. looks like an artifact.

You don't see the remodeling to the tip that has begun?
Quote:
 It could be as simple as a small lateral crease made by a wayward rasp on the outer hoof wall, that has a small amount of crap in it.  Just a guess, as you have the hoof.

Not possible.
Quote:
I don't think a "Creena", as they tend not to be that radiopaque.

Since a crena is a notch or cleft, it cannot be radio-opaque.
Quote:
If a creena is supposed to be what I think KC Lapierre was trying to describe...that is actually a keratoma.

By definition, a crena cannot be a keratoma.
"Crena   Anatomical   Crena marginis solearis   A shallow notch in the dorsal solar margin of the distal phalanx (P3)." (http://www.equipodiatry.com/glossary.html)
Quote:
This foot is obviously long toed.

IIRC, the OP stated that that had been addressed.
Quote:
You can see the corium/lamina 'halo' along the dorsal aspect of the coffin bone, stays pretty parallel until about half way down.

Please point out this phenomenon/structure..
Quote:
 Shorten those toes and bevel them from underneath to get that area out of play until you have well connected hoof wall growing there.

If she does either of those things she will cripple that horse.  This is a job to be undertaken from the toponly. 
Quote:
 Typically 0-5 degrees is appropriate for a barefoot horse.

According to whom?
Quote:
 I would consider lowereing him over time to around the 3 degree point.  

If she does that, she runs the risk of disrupting the phalangeal alignment which will increase the tension in the DDFT, which can cause irritation to the navicular bursa and increased downward pull on p3, further exacerbating the tearing of the dorsal wall laminar interface.  There are ways to avoid this but one has to know what one is doing before attempting such a course of action.
Quote:
The bony column alignment isn't perfect, but nothing to write home about.

Yet you are advocating making it worse.
Quote:
Unfortunately, the coronary band wasn't marked in these views, and it makes it harder to see.  I've marked the general path with the pink dots.  A good hoof will have those dots running through the upper part of the coffin joint.

No sir it will not.
" approximately one half of the short pastern bone is encased within the hoof"
Butler, POH I, II, III.

"The foot consists of the epidermal hoof and all it encloses:  The connective tissue corium(dermis), digital cushion, distal phalanx(coffin bone), most of the cartilages of the distal phalanx, distal interphalangeal(coffin)joint, distal extremity of the middle phalanx(short pastern bone,............"
Stashak, Adams' Lameness in Horses, Fifth Edition, page 1, "Foot".
Quote:
This shows that the bony column is descended.

No sir, it does not.
You will have to address the lamina connection first, and then work on distal descent.[/quote]
There is no evidence of sinking which is what distal descent is.  The term was only recently coined by some in the barefoot movement tough for the life of me, I can't understand why.  Especiall since the term "founder" is taken from a naval term which means "to sink/sinking"
Quote:
This is causing pressure on the soles and protective foot wear would be appropriate.

So heart bar shoes and Equipak would be the 'ticket" to success.
Quote:
If you cannot be around to take care of booting, and cleaning, then casts are an option.

Perhaps, but there are other just as worthy/feasible options available too.
Quote:
The coffin bone in this foot looks pretty good, aside from a little sidebone,.......

Where in those lateral rads do you see any indication of sidebone?
Quote:
The joint spacing is better than I would have thought as well.

Why?
Quote:
There is a periosteal reaction that you can see developing on the lower dorsal aspect of P2.

No there is not.
Quote:
The is developmental low, non-articular ringbone.

You are seeing something that just isn't there.
Quote:
That tells me there are some stresses at the connection of the ligaments there.

Which ligaments?
Quote:
That would be a hoof conformation thing in this case, in my opinion.

How so?
Quote:
 Active ringbone is painfull.

More so when it is articular and involves the DIPJ. 
Quote:
This foot looks a little clubby.  You will be dealing with that hole for awhile.

Not necessarily.
Quote:
 Did they actually get puss drainage out of there?

The term is "pus" or "purulence". "puss" is something else entirely.....
Quote:
I don't see a 'gas' line in the dorsal wall, so it surprises me that he had a significant abscess.

Why?  Does every hoof abscess have to have a 'gas' line?
Quote:
 There is just a slight bony proliferation developing at tip of P3.

That is not bony proliferation.  Rather it is remodeling of the bone at the distal dorsal leading edge of p3.
Quote:
 Also, if you look at the dorsal wall, it isn't crisp.  It is fuzzy looking.  In my opinion this is inflammation,

The best veterinarians on the planet, fully trained in Radiography, cannot  'see' inflammation on a radiograph.
Quote:
 Pedal osteitis is coming to mind.  

You cannot see pedal osteitis on a lateral view radiograph.
Quote:
Their looks to be bone density changes in the coffin bone as well, as the darker inner area seems to be losing ground to the harder cortical bone on the outside.

What seems to you to be happening and what is actually happening are two different things.
Quote:
 I would really consider a 60 DPPD on this foot to look at the edges (solar margins) of the coffin bone and look for bone loss, and widening vascular channels.  It would be an opportunity to see if there are enlarged vascular channels in the navicular bone as well.  If you take him back, opt for a navicular skyline view as well.

Now that's good advise.  Its the only way a determination of pedal osteitis can be accurately made.  Too bad the veterinarian didn't suggest it in the first place.
Quote:
Again with the P2 issue.  Developing low, non-articular ringbone.

Is just not present.
Quote:
 Also the distal interphalangeal joint on this foot looks a bit wide. Possibly inflammation and or edema.

Inflammation of what tissues?  Edema of what tissues?  And, how Would either of these cause a widening of the DIPJ .  What are other possible rationales for the DIPJ joint spacing that is observed?
Quote:
Some distal descent, but to a lesser degree.

No sir, there is not.
Sunny

I think CarolU is out of town.... Can Rick pm his responses to one of us to post in his name?  
learningthedance

SavvyLearner wrote:
I think CarolU is out of town.... Can Rick pm his responses to one of us to post in his name?  


appellativo is the mod for the farrier forum. Maybe she will check in and give the OK. I don't think that's up to us to go against their wishes and take matters into our own hands. As tempting as that may be.  Even though I might not agree with their decision, I will respect it.

I do have one question to ask though. On that picture of the LF. If you look close you can see a dark track (linear radiolucent zone) running up the front of the wall starting at where that abscess was dug out. Would this not be also called a gas line?? a line created by separation of the epidermal lamellae of the inner hoof wall with the dermal lamellae.

Sorry, not trying to get wordy here. Just trying to make sense of what I *think* I am seeing, and I *think* I am seeing a line that now holds air or gas that was once occupied by healthy lamellae.

EDIT TO ADD: Not that this will change the course you are on what so ever. I am just getting hung up on words (and explanations) in my own mind. Just ignore me and carry on. Sorry
Newfman

Interesting.  I didn't see that in the photoshop file, but you are right, and I see it in the original file.  Good call Elise. That would be the gas line I said I couldn't find.    

(Shhh, don't tell anyone, but, you're still my favorite.   )
bit

Gunner's mom here.  How bout little words, plain english?  I do believe that is a gas line, by the way.  Seem to remember something like that.  The abscess never blew out, and it was always tar like, not what I've seen come sqirting out and giving instant relief.  Kelsey thinks he'll be fine with good diet, supplements, and a good trim.  He's moving well at the Brent Greaf clinic with gloves.
Newfman

Then it sounds more like seedy toe than an abscess.  Not something i would 'dig' out, but they do things differently in a hospital environment.  That doesn't explain the fuzzy appearance of the dorsal wall of the coffin bone on that foot.  That is typically indicative of inflammation.

In short, if there will be no follow up x-rays,  using the existing rads as a guide, trim to ensure the coffin bone is parallel to ground surface medio-laterally, (sid to side) and shorten the toes and lower the heels, and get the palmar angle to around 3 degrees.  That part can be done over a 'little' time.  That will be determined by your trimmer, and the horses comfort.  Don't trim one hoof to match the other, just trim each one as if it is a different horse.  If you correct each foot individually, they eventually will come around to being similar.

The soles are thin and flat, so keep padded to prevent excess wear on hard surfaces.  It takes 2 months to grow a sole, but a lot longer if he is wearing it off.  Once the hoof wall grows intact with the lamina (6 or 7 months with proper care) he can start developing concavity and taking care of his own soles.  Then it is just a basic, balanced trim.
RickB.

Newfman wrote:
Then it sounds more like seedy toe than an abscess.  Not something i would 'dig' out,.....

Why not?  What would you do if it were indeed Seedy toe/White Line Disease?
Quote:
but they do things differently in a hospital environment.

Its done in the field too.  And routinely so.
Quote:
That doesn't explain the fuzzy appearance of the dorsal wall of the coffin bone on that foot.  That is typically indicative of inflammation.

Inflammation of what?  The laminae?  The mere fact that here is rotation would suggest inflammation.  After all, the  'itis' in laminitis means inflammation.  And, in instances of founder, rotation of either the hoof capsule or p3 could not occur if there was not inflammation contributing to and as a result of the disinterdigitation of the laminae.
Quote:
In short, if there will be no follow up x-rays,  using the existing rads as a guide, trim to ensure the coffin bone is parallel to ground surface medio-laterally, (sid to side)

How can you possibly assess medio-lateral orientation of p3 from a lateral view radiograph?
Quote:
 If you correct each foot individually, they eventually will come around to being similar.

You state that as if it is an absolute when in reality, It Depends.
Quote:
 It takes 2 months to grow a sole,

How much sole does the average, non-compromised horse grow in the referenced time frame?  How about a compromised horse?
Quote:
 Once the hoof wall grows intact with the lamina (6 or 7 months with proper care) he can start developing concavity and taking care of his own soles.

Again, that is not an absolute.  It Depends.  How does the hoof wall grow intact with the lamina?  Don't you really mean if and when the insensitive lamina of the hoof wall and the sensitive lamina of the coffin bone re-interdigitate tightly/correctly, there is a strong probability that so long as nothing destabilizes the connection, the horse will resume a large degree of normalcy in its hoof growth?  And, as for re-developing concavity(assuing it existed in the first place), again, It Depends.

To state to a certainty that any of what you say will occur will occur, is contributing potential false hope to a situation where there is very little that one can guarantee without qualification.
Kim Cassidy

Newfman wrote:

In short, if there will be no follow up x-rays,  using the existing rads as a guide, trim to ensure the coffin bone is parallel to ground surface medio-laterally, (sid to side) and shorten the toes and lower the heels, and get the palmar angle to around 3 degrees.



Why does the coffin bone need to be ground parallel?  Are you taking into account, the frog, and the digital cushion material?

If this coffin bone gets any closer to the ground it is going to see daylight.  IMO, that is usually not a good thing.

Quote:

The soles are thin and flat, so keep padded to prevent excess wear on hard surfaces.  


I'm very happy to see you acknowledge this!  Prevent excess wear, no kidding.  There is nothing to wear anyway, hence why the horse would be best served by orthotics.  In what manner would you pad the foot?  


    Could you provide more details on that?  
    Would you keep it padded24/7?  
    How do you keep the pad on?
    What would you do about moisture content buildup and further weakening of the already weakened sole?


Quote:

It takes 2 months to grow a sole, but a lot longer if he is wearing it off.


If he isn't wearing shoes how is he NOT wearing sole?  I'm also curious where you are getting the 2 month time frame, I've yet to see that in any reputable publication.  Also is this 2 month growth for pathological feet or healthy feet?

Quote:

 Once the hoof wall grows intact with the lamina (6 or 7 months with proper care) he can start developing concavity and taking care of his own soles.  Then it is just a basic, balanced trim.


What if this is an older horse, what if the pedal bone DOESN'T have a natural arch?  Will the horse ever develop concavity?  Really the prime directive for this foot should be impression material and shoes.  Or maybe a clog or EVA shoe

OP:  I would look at the following websites for information on protecting and building sole depth.  I wouldn't worry about ground parallel coffin bones, or bone spurs or abscess tracks.  Your horse has dangerously thin soles please give him the protection he needs.

www.eponashoe.com
www.epona-institute.org
http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/t...instguides/stewardclog-guide.html
http://www.equicast.us/hooftreatments/evabrochure.html

Do you have photos of the actual feet and video of the horse?  That would always provide more info to us interested in helping
learningthedance

Kim Cassidy wrote:
 Really the prime directive for this foot should be impression material and shoes.  Or maybe a clog or EVA shoe

OP:  I would look at the following websites for information on protecting and building sole depth.  I wouldn't worry about ground parallel coffin bones, or bone spurs or abscess tracks.  Your horse has dangerously thin soles please give him the protection he needs.



She is giving him the protection he needs. Working on diet, getting a good trim, asking for "oppinions", and using boots now to keep him moving and comfortable.
Just a quick question here. Epona's are basically, (from what I have seen and read about them and understand from the site), a more permanent boot base that is nailed through the hoof wall . I can see where the permanent part would be a bonus to some that might not have the time (or desire) to check the foot on a daily basis, but for me, that would drive me NUTS!! I would want to be able to allow the foot to dry out for a few hours each day, and have a good inspection of the foot to make sure nothing is brewing or needs trimming, treating, etc.... Boots with proper pads would offer the same results as the Epona's, but with the added benefit (for me anyways) of being able to be removed or put on as needed. You can also use impression material with casts as you mentioned. Pete Ramey (sorry, I know you hate it when someone makes reference to him) has some great information on that area as well with video that makes it easy to understand. BUT, if the horse is moving around fine with boots and pads, I don't quite see the point of it because again, as with the Eponas, you loose the ability to allow the foot to dry and to see what's going on.

Just my opinion of course. She has several options.

Shoes, Eponas, or boots with pads when/as needed.

Options are a beautiful thing.
Kim Cassidy

learningthedance wrote:


She is giving him the protection he needs. Working on diet, getting a good trim, asking for "oppinions", and using boots now to keep him moving and comfortable.


Here is the quote from her first post regarding the use of boots
Quote:
He's ok in boots, still ouchy
 That doesn't sound like keeping him comfortable.

Despite many die hard barefooters claims, boots are not optimal sole developmental tools.  If it were me, I'd want more than just "keeping him comfortable" I'd want rideabililty, healing and thick soles.  But hey, maybe I want too much .

Quote:
. Epona's are basically, (from what I have seen and read about them and understand from the site), a more permanent boot base that is nailed through the hoof wall.  


No that is not what the Epona's are.  Call Monique or John at 1-(866)-376-6283 and ask them if they think their shoes and boots are the same thing .

Boots are fine if your horse is already sound and they are used as a Cover Your @SS while riding in unknown terrain.  Even then they are not always what is best for the horse. Hey don't get me wrong, I think Old Mac's are great if you are dealing with a shuffling newly foundered horse.  Boots are not, as I've already expressed (IMO) good for developing thicker soles and a sounder horse.  They are a Toe Extension and for a pathological foot - not a good idea.

Quote:

a bonus to some that might not have the time (or desire) to check the foot on a daily basis,


Ya know, I used to say things like this before I understood.  Shoes were for those who couldn't care less.  All horses can go barefoot, not all owners can.  blah blah blah.  I was spouting a load of horse puckie.  

Do you seriously, really, think I want to put Epona's on my horse or any other clients horses?  DO you comprehend how much time and labor goes into it.  How MUCH money?  I would love it if both of my horses could be barefoot.  I would never trim them I'd just ride the tar out em and go with the flow.  Unfortunately, some horses can't go barefoot no matter how much the owners care.

Boots are not barefoot and boots are not a substitute for a good shoeing package.  Whether that  good shoeing package be my beloved Epona's, Natural Balance, Keg shoes, Handmades, Casts or Clogs.

Quote:

I would want to be able to allow the foot to dry out for a few hours each day, and have a good inspection of the foot to make sure nothing is brewing or needs trimming, treating, etc....


Ermmmmmm what makes you think the Epona's require a good drying out?  I have clients in good ole wet NY shod 24/7 for the past year and a half who have nice dry feet.  The assumptions are astounding  With the judicious use of packing material and anti-bacterial granules no greeblies can be found.

Quote:

Boots with proper pads would offer the same results as the Epona's,


Not bloody likely  If you understood how the hoof and the internal structures function you wouldn't type this stuff.  Boots ENHANCE the long toe.  There is no way in Hades you can set breakover correctly on a long toed foot using boots.  Boots also can pinch the coronet band, cause heel rubs, smoosh the lateral cartilages and heat the foot like an easy bake oven.  Epona's or other properly applied shoes do enhance BO and don't do the smooshing, crushing or heating!

Quote:

Pete Ramey (sorry, I know you hate it when someone makes reference to him)


Once again, the assumptions :D  I couldn't care less if you bring up Pete's name.  Pete is a nice guy but he is selling a load of hogwash.   His video does not show any such thing.  I have all of them and I've yet to see any proof that barefoot or boots can cure Distal Descent or build adequate sole depth.  Many folks take improperly trimmed horses barefoot and then ooolala over the positive changes.  This proves only one thing, even a monkey could do it :D  Better yet even a horse on its own can do it.

My whole reason for posting is so that the OP gets good help from some one locally (if possible) and doesn't cause further damage while trying to keep her horse bare.
learningthedance

I just love a quote I read somewhere....doesn't really matter where.

"It's hard to learn anything when you already know it all".

Anyways, I am looking forward to following the progress and hearing how things turn out. Oh, and details!! We love details!!
Kim Cassidy

learningthedance wrote:
I just love a quote I read somewhere....doesn't really matter where.

"It's hard to learn anything when you already know it all".



Putting "love" emoticon's around mean things doesn't make it nice.  I have never claimed to know it all and I love how the diehards stake this claim when put on the carpet.

Accusing me of being a know it all, does not make it fact and the accusation gets old.

LTD, I have some valid and honest questions to ask you.


    How many horses do you trim a week?  
    How long have you been trimming professionally?
    How many founders have you worked on in the past 10 years?
    How many successes and how many failures of said founders?
    How many thin soled horses have you developed thick soles on, with radiographic documentation?
    How many navicular horses have you cured?
    Whom have you learned from?
    Where have you traveled to gain your knowledge?
    How many Pete Ramey clinics have you attended?
    How many Strasser clinics have you attended?
    KCLapierre?
    Since you know so much about shoes, how many have you nailed on?  


I look forward to your detailed responses, I'm sure as colleagues we have much to discuss and so many ideas to exchange    
bit

K State vet recommended shoes, pads, and packing with ochum.  Ochem?  whatever.  I don't have a problem with shoes.  Shoes are fine, honest.  Some horses just can't do barefoot.  This horse does not need to be in boots 24/7.  I will do whatever it takes to help this horse.  
Please do me a favor, ok?  No fighting.  I want to hear all opinions, keeping in mind they are just that...opinions.  I love hearing what everone thinks, and will talk to Kelsey about it all.  We will post pics, share Gunner's progress and maybe we will all learn something.  But no snarky fighting, no insulting folks, just sharing what ya know so we can make this about the horse.
Kim Cassidy

Oakum.

I've already given my thoughts and professional opinion.  I would suggest you go back and look at my post where I listed the links I find useful.

I can't help it if certain folk like to trainwreck threads.  All I did was offer advice (my opinion based on my experiences).

Good luck
Newfman

What an incredibly miserable wretch.  When you learn to read, it is ground parallel medio-laterally.  

I liked it better on break from the direction this forum has gone.  I have stated my opinion as requested.  My life is way to short to deal with her ignorant BS.  

Good luck folks, enjoy the troll.
Kim Cassidy

Newfman wrote:
What an incredibly miserable wretch.


Really, how rude.  I thought this type of slamming wasn't allowed on this forum.

Quote:

 When you learn to read, it is ground parallel medio-laterally.  


Newman, I can read and my question remains the same.  How can yo be sure any one given coffin bone is supposed to be, or even can be ground parallel.  What about the frog, the digital cushion the lateral cartilages and the bony column further up?

Of course their are ideals, but not all horses fit the specimen model.

What is of utmost concern for this horse is the thin soles.  In my personal experiences many times the abscesses are a by product of thin soles (pinched corium, CA, and other damaged soft tissue).  Not always but I'm saying in many cases.

Pointing to some slight m/l imbalances is like looking at a chipped fingernail when the ulna is what is broken


Well good luck to you too
Kim Cassidy

Bit:

Here are some radiographs showing sole depth improvement and better alignment in the boney column.  This horse was kept in steel shoes, barefoot, used Old Macs, Epic's Bares, glued them on, strapped them on, went back to shoes, went bare and then into the Epona's.  Time frame for the radiographs are 6 months difference.







I have many more of a variety of cases.  I'm sure Rick Burten can provide more evidence as well.
bit

Holy crap!  That's f-ing amazing!  That is what I want for him!  Wow!  I'm going to pass the laptop to Kelsey and she can check out everyones thoughts.  Thank you everyone for sharing what you know.  Ok, computer is leaving my hands...I'm exhausted.  It's my turn for the shower.  Three days of Brent Graef!  I feel like Jody Foster on the movie, Contact when she got back from her visit with the alien.  Just no words.  Ok, and heat stroke.  110 heat index today.  I took lots of pics, and Kelsey remembers lots so hopefully she'll share.  Gunner did bloody awesome in the gloves.  He moved really well, and he just kept getting better and better!
Kim Cassidy

bit wrote:
Holy crap!  That's f-ing amazing!  That is what I want for him!  Wow!  I'm going to pass the laptop to Kelsey and she can check out everyones thoughts.  Thank you everyone for sharing what you know.  Ok, computer is leaving my hands...I'm exhausted.  It's my turn for the shower.  Three days of Brent Graef!  I feel like Jody Foster on the movie, Contact when she got back from her visit with the alien.  Just no words.  Ok, and heat stroke.  110 heat index today.  I took lots of pics, and Kelsey remembers lots so hopefully she'll share.  Gunner did bloody awesome in the gloves.  He moved really well, and he just kept getting better and better!


Hey Bit,

Look forward to hearing about Brent's clinic.  Please share!  I

thought the improvements were amazing too and I have tons more where that came from.

I'm glad to hear Gunner is doing so well in the Gloves, that sure would be a cheap, easy answer :D  Also depending on the work, Brent's stuff could be helping too.

Ha, 110 is child's play  
whudson

Kim Cassidy wrote:
Bit:

 This horse was kept in steel shoes, barefoot, used Old Macs, Epic's Bares, glued them on, strapped them on, went back to shoes, went bare and then into the Epona's.  Time frame for the radiographs are 6 months difference.


Just wondering about the time frame between...steel shoes, old macs,glue, strap, shoes, bare and epona's ?

Pls forgive my ignorance, but I am only new...flapping my lips, like a new born foal ...but how long does it take to grow a "new " wall or sole depth?

I'm just looking for an answer nothing more
Chablis

Pardon my ignorance   but in the top right hand photo that you showed Kim, is that tacks or nails that appear to be touching the coffin bone?
Kim Cassidy

Chablis wrote:
Pardon my ignorance   but in the top right hand photo that you showed Kim, is that tacks or nails that appear to be touching the coffin bone?


No they are not  

Look at the second set of photos of the SAME foot.  Do the nails look like they are even close to the coffin bone?

The top 2 photos are lateral shots before and after (6 month difference)
The bottom 2 photos are Dorso-Palmar shots before and after (6 month difference)

Compare all the photos and you will see that the nails are in a galaxy far far away  
Chablis

Kim Cassidy wrote:
Chablis wrote:
Pardon my ignorance   but in the top right hand photo that you showed Kim, is that tacks or nails that appear to be touching the coffin bone?


Come on Chablis, really?  No they are not!

Look at the second set of photos of the SAME foot.  Do the nails look like they are even close to the coffin bone?

The top 2 photos are lateral shots before and after (6 month difference)
The bottom 2 photos are Dorso-Palmar shots before and after (6 month difference)

Compare all the photos and you will see that the nails are in a galaxy far far away  


I couldn't enlarge the pictures which is why I asked.  As I doubted my eyes, I thought it simplier to ask you rather than make an assumption.

I was only referring to the top right photo on what it *appeared* to show.

Thank you for answering.  
Kim Cassidy

whudson wrote:

Just wondering about the time frame between...steel shoes, old macs,glue, strap, shoes, bare and epona's ?

Pls forgive my ignorance, but I am only new...flapping my lips, like a new born foal ...but how long does it take to grow a "new " wall or sole depth?

I'm just looking for an answer nothing more


I'm confused about the answer you are looking for. (nothing more, nothing less).

The radiographs Left March 09, Right August 09 Top and Bottom.

As far as steel shoes, old mac's glue ons, strap ons (yeah baby), shoes, bare, epona's.  6 years of trying barefoot (with boots) before going to the Epona's.  The whole story is on my website, in the owners words.  Look for Kipper's Story.
Kim Cassidy

Chablis wrote:


I couldn't enlarge the pictures which is why I asked.  As I doubted my eyes, I thought it simplier to ask you rather than make an assumption.

I was only referring to the top right photo on what it appeared to show.

Thank you for answering.  


Hey I edited my response as it sounded so abrupt (trying to be more polite :D)

Really I just meant that EEEEEEK no way :D  Glad you asked!
Chablis

I wasn't offended but thank you for clarifying.  
Sunny

SavvyLearner wrote:
I think CarolU is out of town.... Can Rick pm his responses to one of us to post in his name?  



Well, after reading Rick's response to Erin on the other forum I can see why he's being moderated. His post to her was absolutely uncalled for and I'm glad he's being moderated.  I'm very sorry I tried to stand up for him.
appellativo

I'm no longer going to be moderating; I wanted to release his posts so you guys could see what he said, but couldn't release his posts because IMO he's still being short and rude and confrontational. Maybe he has a right to be. I don't want to be the one making the call though, so I don't think I'm a very good moderator. So, if the other moderators are not releasing his posts, there might be a good reason, so y'all keep that in mind
creekwood

Sheesh.
Okay, before this thread was started, I talked to the vet from K-state. Deb called a epona farrier & left a message. We were gone all weekend, came back to find... this whole thing.  
Gunner did beautifully at the clinic, and came back a transformed horse. He IS comfortable in gloves with thinline pads.
The epona farrier called back last night. He's retired, but still has eponas, so he's coming out Sunday to show me how to put them on. Right now, Gunner is booted during doing the day, and they are left off his feet at night so his feet can air & the boots can be washed.
Thank you everyone for the help. If this thread doesn't get deleted, I'd like to keep it updated with how Gunner is doing.
Yes_But_Neigh

Kelsey, that would be great!
Now that you've found the solution to the sweet guy it would be great to see how he progresses. Any pics of the other horses at the clinic ?Loved your pics of you and Quinn so much! Did Deb ride?
learningthedance

Kim Cassidy wrote:
Bit:

Here are some radiographs showing sole depth improvement and better alignment in the boney column.









Not trying to be nit picky. I am just asking for the sake of learning more and trying to get the most out of this thread as possible. Even at the expected risk of being slammed.  I can see the sole depth improvement (amazing how padding/protection can give the sole a chance to fill in and build), but can you point out the "better alignment" in the boney column. I added some lines to the area's I have have questions about.

In the first picture I see no change at all to the boney column.



The second one, the position of the coffin bone to the wall looks as though the toe is running forward and wider at the bottom then the top (flaring?), were as in the before picture the connection looked tight all the way down.



The third picture also doesn't look "better aligned"(to my untrained eye). Not when looking at the position of P1 and P2.


The last picture, well that's self explanatory, *I think*. I am looking at the length of toe there just to be clear.


I am no expert at reading rads and have taken no courses YET, so instead I will ask for clarification as I always do.
TIA  

EDIT: Maybe I should start a new thread for reading rads?? Although, I guess that's how this one started. I will PM Kelsey to see if she would like me to move it.

I look forward to hearing your reply.
learningthedance

creekwood wrote:

Thank you everyone for the help. If this thread doesn't get deleted, I'd like to keep it updated with how Gunner is doing.


Yes please do!!
Chablis

creekwood wrote:
Sheesh.
Okay, before this thread was started, I talked to the vet from K-state. Deb called a epona farrier & left a message. We were gone all weekend, came back to find... this whole thing.  
Gunner did beautifully at the clinic, and came back a transformed horse. He IS comfortable in gloves with thinline pads.
The epona farrier called back last night. He's retired, but still has eponas, so he's coming out Sunday to show me how to put them on. Right now, Gunner is booted during doing the day, and they are left off his feet at night so his feet can air & the boots can be washed.
Thank you everyone for the help. If this thread doesn't get deleted, I'd like to keep it updated with how Gunner is doing.


I'm glad you found a solution (must be a huge weight off your mind!). Nothing else matters.  

Please do keep us updated on Gunner's progress.  
Hank

Please note--when reading rads, if the dorsal wall is not marked, you do not really know where the dorsal wall actually lies, as a digital x ray will not show material like hoof wall that is not several layers thick. That is why the first rad has a screw taped to the dorsal wall, then "space", then wall that is thick enough to be seen.

There is no way to know where the dorsal wall is in the "afters", therefore, you can't assess the connection. Also, think about it, if you are getting more sole depth, you are going to have more hoof, overall, so there will by necessity, be more toe.

If you cannot see that P-2 is less saggy in the after shot, I don't know what else to say. Please note that the extensor process is forward of your line in the before shot and even with it in the after.

As for the nails, in a lateral shot, they can be as high as the coffin bone without being anywhere near it. As they are driven they are going higher and shallower until they exit the wall. That is why the lateral shot looks like the nails are as high as the bone.

Not sure why you have circled the sidebone. If you look at the joint spaces, the P2 and P1 are better in the afters. P2 and P3 are better in the befores. Which one is going to be more important in your mind? What about the 6 other joints in the leg...which ones are you going to align, and which ones are you going to have to live with?
Chablis

Hank wrote:


As for the nails, in a lateral shot, they can be as high as the coffin bone without being anywhere near it. As they are driven they are going higher and shallower until they exit the wall. That is why the lateral shot looks like the nails are as high as the bone.



Thank you for that - as you can tell I'm not very experienced at looking at rads.
learningthedance

Thank you Hank.

The more descriptive the better.Then people like myself aren't left sitting here "trying" to figure it out. Well, maybe no one else was trying, but I just can't seem to get enough.

Learning is a beautiful thing!!  
Kim Cassidy

Wow Hank who pulled you out of the woodwork  

Hank explained it very nicely LTD, I'm glad she answered.

I have talked at great length with Monique Craig (www.eponashoe.com) and she has radiographed over 600+ horses and her mathematician husband measured the joint spacing starting between p3 and p2 and going up to the joint at the proximal end of the cannon bone.  The COA has yet to be at 50/50 and spacing doesn't match all the way up.  As Hank said, which is most important?

When taking radiographs, which way is the horse leaning?  Forward/Back, more weight on the LF, more weight on the RF, more weight on the hinds, more medial or more lateral.  So many choices.  It is about looking at the WHOLE picture.

Radiographs are a great diagnostic and measuring tool, but they are not perfect, yet I can use them to show improvement in Kipper's feet within 6 months.  Her coffin bone is a long way from daylight and by hook or by crook that is what is really important.

Despite all this Kip is still not sound, so what does that tell ya.  She had torn her RH suspensory branch, got better and rideable and then tore her LH suspensory branch.  Both of those have healed and now something is breaking down in her RF.

She is seen by the vet on a regular basis and it is no longer a hoof problem.  I'll tell ya what, sometimes they just need to be hurt, no matter what we do.

Anyhooo

Bit, I hope you do keep us posted

It is hard without having people standing here to go over all the changes in the rads.  But look at the heelbulbs, look at P2
bit

If we can afford it, would like to do rads when Gunny is all better and barefoot, walking comfortable and loving life.  Meanwhile, as Kelsey said, we are going with epona's.  I'll take pictures and maybe before and after video?  I think Gunner is a good example of one of the things that might happen during barefoot transition, and what might possibly be one path to take in helping the horse.  
Kelsey noted that the iron content in our water was pretty high, plus I had some "red" salt available, both loose and in a block.  We are pulling all that, and just going with the white salt.  Also added zinc and copper to their diet via smart pac.  Difference in all horses hoof growth is dramatic, and everyone's feet are doing really well.  Even Bit, who had no concavity, could be ouchy outside my pasture, and feet were a little brittle.  She is doing really well and quite full of herself.  Amazing how their personalities change when their feet are good to go.  
Yep, with the thin line pads and new gloves with the non rubbing gator, Gunner is doing really well.  Very comfortable and moving freely.  Can't wait to see how he does in the epona's.  Anyone have any experience with these shoes in snow?  Hope to have him out of them by then, but just wondering...
Hank, thanks for the info.  Sometimes it gets so technical that I can get lost, but Kelsey gets it, and dumbs it down for me.  Kim, thanks for all your help and sending us in a possible good direction.  All we can do is our best, and the more info we have, the better.  Like any medical diagnosis, a lot of it is treating symptoms and hoping the patient responds.  This from a vet I worked for.  Even better, actually finding out what exactly needs to be done, no guessing, and treating the problem.  The more info we have, the better chance we have of treating the problem and not the symptoms.
Yes_But_Neigh

Quote:
Kelsey noted that the iron content in our water was pretty high, plus I had some "red" salt available, both loose and in a block.  We are pulling all that, and just going with the white salt.


Deb, can you fill me in on the salt? We fed the loose red stuff in Oregon as well- recommended by all of the vets. Is it an area thing or is the white stuff just better? Are you feeding it in a block now or loose?
& how did Kelsey know the iron content?

Fascinating stuff!
learningthedance

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that the water there is well water and is very high in iron. The "red" salt has added iron(hence the red color), so they switched them to white (plain salt), so they are no longer getting excess. Excess Iron is not a good thing. The Brown salt has minerals added, and the Blue salt has cobalt?
bit

Correct you are!  Lots of iron in our well water, even more in the red salt, and lord knows what else.  It's amazing how many folks get horses, have no clue about diet, never do, and somehow the horse survives.  I'm kind glad I'm learning (at the pace of a snail) so that my horses don't just survive, but thrive.  There are so many theories out there about hoof care, shod, not shod, diet, supplements...you can drown in it.  That's why it's so important to keep good information coming in to this topic.  It's the only place I can go, not get flamed and feel comfortable asking really stupid questions.  Thanks for all your help, everyone.
creekwood

Okay guys, I'm posting the pics of Gunner in his new Eponas. I'm working on editing a before/after video of him moving that I'll post (hopefully tonight). It's a very dramatic difference.
Scott was a great guy, talked me through everything, and Deb video'd most of it so I can go back over it. It was my first time nailing a shoe on, so it was quite the learning experience.
I'm posting these for educational purposes, not for it to become a presidential debate. Keep it civil please.
All the horses here have the same new 3/4" growth from the new diet, so that should be pretty nice as it grows out.





Kim Cassidy

Yeah!!!  Good job.
Yes_But_Neigh

WOW! Beautiful hooves Kelsey- great job! Also- I love the cat in the back ground
appellativo

Thanks for the update! I want to hear more about the dietary changes please (just tell me if it was already posted and where and I'll reread it there....)
bit

A lot less grain for Gunner.  A lot less.  We added copper and zinc to make up for all the iron in the water.  86'd the red salt and replaced with white.  We'll be changing over to Timothy hay pellets once we finish off the pellets we have.  No more alfalfa, I believe?  Kelsey has been the diet director, so she'll be able to give you the whys and why nots.  Will probably put Gunner on Smart Sox from smart pac to increase blood circulation in his feet.  From what I am learning, less is more.  Keep it simple and don't over feed.
Eclipse's "liver", her moundy, cresty neck is now going soft.  It was pretty hard.  In my heat induced coma I imagined surgically removing her crest, and it looking something like a big liver.  lol.  Now that the weather is cooling off a bit, we'll be back to riding and her cresty neck and extra folds should dissapear.  She is on a smart pack supplement for insulin resistance.  Seems to be helping a lot.
Now that Gunner's feet are protected, hoping to turn everyone out on the whole place.  That increases travel for the horses by 30 acres.  Eclipse will remain in a grazing muzzle, and probably Hawk.  He didn't talk to Kelsey for two days after she put one on him.  He's a sensitive guy.  All that walking should help Gunner with his feet.  Movement is a good thing.
Kim Cassidy

Hey Bit:

Where is the videos
bit

I'll get Kelsey on that!  I need to download a movie maker.  Got some good video of the horses playing with the new soccer ball from Horsesjustgottahavefun.  It actually held up to Hawk laying on it, biting it, and getting zippity.  Great ball!
creekwood

sorry, didn't get much of him going to the right, but you get the idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlZIiRK6y6k
RickB.

creekwood wrote:
sorry, didn't get much of him going to the right, but you get the idea.

Nicely done.  He looks like a very happy camper.
creekwood

He is much happier. When we went to bring horses in from the 'back 30' tonight, everyone took off on a lonnnnng canter to the gate, and Gunner was having a blast, and finally keeping up with the other 5 horses. (okay, so my 3 arabs were smokin the stock horses   , but Gunner was keeping up with Eclipse & Bit.)
Chablis

Huge improvement! Well done!        
Kim Cassidy

I'm feeling very SMUG right now

Wow much improved, I will say with horses that lame (thin soled) I've found 3 shoeings to be the magic number.

Bit and Kelsey - great job on experimenting!

I will say, if you lose shoes out in that field you are faccacia'd  

Tra lalalalala :D  When are you going to do the hinds? hahahahaha
bit

I'm not sure that Epona's are the "cure" for every horse, but they do seem to be helping Gunner be more comfortable.  We are also addressing his hoof issues with diet and exercise.  I think you have to bring the whole package into practice.  If you keep doing the same thing, you get the same results.  This doesn't work with just the shoes, alone.  I am seeing more of who he is, now that he's not dealing with pain.  He's more playful, more curious, more social, more of who he is.  That's been the brightest bit of the whole thing.  A happy horse.
edited to add, Gunner ran with the arabians this morning!  Ditched the stock horses, peeled off and joined those snakey necking dip headers!
Kim Cassidy

bit wrote:
I'm not sure that Epona's are the "cure" for every horse, but they do seem to be helping Gunner be more comfortable.  We are also addressing his hoof issues with diet and exercise.  I think you have to bring the whole package into practice.  If you keep doing the same thing, you get the same results.  This doesn't work with just the shoes, alone.  I am seeing more of who he is, now that he's not dealing with pain.  He's more playful, more curious, more social, more of who he is.  That's been the brightest bit of the whole thing.  A happy horse.


I agree 100% Bit.  Never said Epona's were the magic cure.  But it does my heart good to know that sometimes they allow you to eliminate the most basic issue, HOOF PAIN and move on up and out to other things.

I know I personally struggled with my own horse and I did do all that I was told.  Barefoot, diet, supplements, etc and it wasn't until I gave him relief at the hoof that I could get down to business.

You aren't the only one.  Leah has all of her horses in Epona's now too.  She along with many others used to bash me for leaving the barefoot fold.  When I complained about boots, same thing.  I can't help but be publicly happy.  Sorry and hope it didn't sound rude.  It is just vindication in some small way.

And in truth it is about the horses and I want to help.  So it was nice to see a happier horse in the videos.
bit

I knooooow!  I felt like we were on that show, Mystery Diagnosis.  K State kept digging more holes, he never got better, and I was trying everything I could think of to help him.  Bought boots with the new non rub gators, supplements, changed his diet, sole hardeners, and nothing helped.  Nothing.  I'm pretty happy with the results and love the fact that the shoe is more like a tennis shoe.  It moves, it flexes, and it protects really well.  I'm hoping Kelsey can spread a lot of Epona joy here in Kansas.
misstux

Just got a chance to watch the video.  Woohoo!
bit

Took Gunny out to do some ground play in the pasture with Kelsey and Hawkie.  He moved like a horse that was pain free.  Long strides, happy both directions, and relaxed.  When Kelsey and I were done, we walked them to the very back gate and let them go.  They both stampeded back to the other horses, a joyful, full speed gallop.  Gunner never cantered before, just trotted maybe.  Today he ran as fast as he could, becasue he could.  
Today Kelsey also put front Epona's on Bit, who I haven't ridden in almost two years.  She does ok in the pasture but can be ouchy on rock or cement.  Today she was relaxed, collected and a pleasure to ride.  I think I'm going to be seeing a lot more cantering from her when the horses get zippity out there in the pasture.  She and Gunner would usually just trot.   I'm loving how they are responding to their new shoes.
RickB.

I just hate it when those darn peripheral loading devices help a [formerly] barefoot horse achieve a level of soundness,  comfort and performance previously unavailable to him.  Watching a horse open up and stride out and lose the pained look in his eyes is almost to much for anyone, let alone me, to bear(or is that, bare?).

I wish you fair skies, a trailing wind and many happy hours in the saddle.
RickB.

Kim Cassidy wrote:
 I can't help but be publicly happy.  Sorry and hope it didn't sound rude.  It is just vindication in some small way..

Imagine how it warms the cockles of my heart.......  

And Kim, before you make some snide comment about doubting whether I have a heart or not, I have an echo cardiogram  that proves that I do indeed have a heart.  That said, I must admit that it showed up black on the ultrasound.  thumbup
PasoBaby_CarolU

bit wrote:
I'm not sure that Epona's are the "cure" for every horse, but they do seem to be helping Gunner be more comfortable.  We are also addressing his hoof issues with diet and exercise.  I think you have to bring the whole package into practice.


I think this deserves emphasis again.   I achieved similar results with hoof casts (perfect hoofware) on Bien.   What I find stabilizing the foot does is allow you to START exercising the horse, increasing the blood supply to the foot, and getting the weight off.   The metabolic issues still need to be addressed through diet and medication because the CAUSE of the laminitis is still there.  You have to do all three, stabilize the foot, exercise, and diet to CURE the horse, and it is a marathon and not a sprint.  Even then, the horse has to be managed correctly all of its life or you're right back where you started from.
Kim Cassidy

bit wrote:
 She and Gunner would usually just trot.   I'm loving how they are responding to their new shoes.


That is so great, congratulations on the happier horses.  I enjoy when that happens too.



Rick, I know you have a heart!

Carol:

I don't think anyone who knows anything thinks that putting Epona's on a horse cures everything from west nile virus to lamintiis  

What it does do, as any good orthotic package might, is break the cycle of pain, cortisol release and inflammation.  This can actually end a subclinical laminitic attack that was brought on by constant low grade pain.  Sometimes, your issues aren't diet, or grass or or or.

I don't ever remember there being so much laminitis, equine metabolic syndrome, etc.. until the big "barefoot movement" came along.   I've seen more horses pushed into laminitis by over trimming and over transitioning.  Hence my constant harping to get thee protection to some folks.  

Thats all, nothing more, nothing less.
PasoBaby_CarolU

I think I'll have to disagree Kim and maybe it's because I come from a breed who have lived on 'nothing' for 500 years, and suddenly exposed to rich U.S. diets, are now very "easy keepers" and founder prone.  I can't count how many horses have been put down due to laminitis.   I had laminitic horses from sugar long before barefoot became a fad.   A fad, I might add, that I've never joined.  Add to that years of developing the 'best' pasture grasses and alfalfa for milk production and weight gain in cattle, and put horses on it, and you have an explosion in laminitis problems.  Horses are not meant to eat such diets.

It is only recent research, the last 10 or so years, that has found high sugar diets to be the primary culprit.   And in all honesty, until you do blood work you don't know, unless you know it is caused by a force injury, such as road founder.  

My farrier told me of a case of his where the owner put the horse in Hoof Armour and it worked so good he took the horse deer hunting and rode him like he was sound.   As soon as the Hoof Armour wore off, the horse was dead lame again.   Still overweight and still on the same diet.   He didn't retreat the horse, figuring it wouldn't mater until spring riding season.  The horse dropped through his soles within a month and had to be put down.  

Laminitis is a symptom, not a disease.  Until you treat the cause...whatever it is, it is not going away just because you stabilize the foot.
Kim Cassidy

PasoBaby_CarolU wrote:

Laminitis is a symptom, not a disease.  Until you treat the cause...whatever it is, it is not going away just because you stabilize the foot.


I agree that laminitis is a symptom but sometimes the disease IS pain in the foot.

I too have an easy keeper, a Morgan.  I'm sorry to keep repeating the same old story but it must not get noticed.  His diet is tightly controlled, hay is tested, he is muscled in good weight and sound (only when shod).  As soon as I remove his shoes and think oh, I'll give him some time off from the shoes.  Not even riding, he starts to develop digital pulses and gets more lame until I put the shoes on.

Hey, maybe I just have found his dis-ease yet.  But I can tell you just putting the shoes on allows me to keep him stimulated both in mind and body.

I am also basing my info on more than just my horse

You know when I get my period every 28 days, I feel like horrible.  I have very bad cramping, I take Advil, guess what I can get out of bed, go to work, ride, hang out, enjoy myself.  If I don't take it, I can't do those things.  So I break the cycle of pain and get to function normally.  Same thing  

The beauty is we can have our own opinions, voice them and go on our merry way.

Enjoy the day.
bit

I get what Carol is saying.  I'm not a big fan of treating symptoms and not the problem, although that is basically what most doctors tend to do.  (Kim I had horrific cramps with my period because of fibroids.  I could have continuted to take pain reducers, but had a hysterectomy, which treated the problem and ended the sypmtoms.)  It's a little like telling the alcolholic that the cure is to stop drinking, and we all know that the drinking is a syptom, not the problem.  
I must say my horses diet has changed drastically since Ms. Corey took over.  Grain is a very minimal thing, once a day, and just to feed supplements.  Two of the horses are in grazing muzzles most of the time,, and they are only turned out on the "good stuff" for a few hours.  I think we just barely caught Eclipse before she foundered.  Her "liver" on her neck is no longer rock hard, and she has lost a good amount of weight.  Lots of exercise for her, as well as Bit and Gunner.  
I am intriqued by the cortasol idea.  Wondering if it has something with Eclipse's weight, considering she gained such a significant amount of wieght on the same diet as everyone else.  If I can figure out why, I can do something about it.  Right now, she's in a grazing muzzle, which is only treating her syptom, weight gain, and not why her metabolism seems to be out of whack.
PasoBaby_CarolU

Deb,

The window for testing ACTH is shortening.  Tests in the fall and winter tend to produce false positives.   I watched a video a few weeks ago about ACTH and about the "Gold Standard" Dex-suppression test, and neither test is pure gold on diagnosing Cushings.  Both have problems.

When I was talking with Dr. Henneman Friday, she was telling me that the new research and studies are suggesting that the adipose deposits (fat pads) produce their own cortisol hormones, and in many horses there is no problem at all with the pituitary.   Once the fat is gone (down to a 4 on the body condition score), the horses test normal for ACTH.

Sounds like Kelsey is on the right track with your group.  Keep up the good work.
Kim Cassidy

PasoBaby_CarolU wrote:
Once the fat is gone (down to a 4 on the body condition score), the horses test normal for ACTH.


No kidding  

Hence why changing nothing but adding the shoes have made a difference for my horse and so many of my clients.  

Within a week of applying the shoes, fat pads started to dissipate, nothing else changed.  Within 2 weeks horses went back to riding and work, sound!

For some horses within 6 months back to barefoot without a lame step.  Others are still in the shoes, that ole pesky... It Depends comes in to play.

It ain't all about fixing a disease, it's about doing what works for the horse.

I know another horse was sound, doing great, he colicked (spelling) and that caused laminitis.  Foot protection is now a must til that grows out.  NOTHING to do with diet, or EMS or or or.

Sometimes (broken record coming again) it is as simple as just stopping the pain and voila improvement.

Very interesting discussion.  Do you have any links you could share Carol?
appellativo

Is it 'breaking the cycle of pain' that does it, or is it allowing the horse more comfortable movement thus MORE movement, thus more exercise, thus healthier physiology (or are we both talking about the same thing)?

Kim said, "I know another horse was sound, doing great, he colicked (spelling) and that caused laminitis.  Foot protection is now a must til that grows out.  NOTHING to do with diet, or EMS or or or...."

A red flag is going up about this statement and I can't put my finger on it. You said he colicked,....then said it has nothing to do with diet. (???)

I think what I'm trying to say is yes it's all connected, you can't separate and say 'It had nothing to do with (insert word here), because all the systems affect each other. Do you know what I mean?
PasoBaby_CarolU

Kim, if you don't change the diet or the amount of exercise, how do you get rid of the fat?   How did the horse get too fat in the first place?  You have to change them or the horse will continue to produce high levels of ACTH.  

Additionally, that is JUST ACTH.   It has nothing to do with Insulin resistance, where the horse is over producing insulin, or the cells aren't utilizing it.  In both these cases you need exercise to regrow healthy hoof, and shoes or casts to stabilize while you do, but you still have to treat the underlying metabolic problem.  My IR mare has always been a 4 or 5 on body condition, and always got regular exercise.   It didn't keep her from laminitis, and she'd be dead today if I hadn't gotten her off all sugar and  treated the IR aggressively.

It's not just about feet.  Metabolic embalances affect the whole body.
Kim Cassidy

PasoBaby_CarolU wrote:
Kim, if you don't change the diet or the amount of exercise, how do you get rid of the fat?   How did the horse get too fat in the first place?


I know its not always just about the feet.  I'm trying to say that sometimes it is just about the feet.

They get in pain, they release cortisol, they retain fat, they need places to deposit it, they get in more pain due to more cortisol release, more glucose, more more more.  They can't move because their feet hurt, you can't ride as they develop laminitis, abscesses, etc.

You put shoes on, their feet stop hurting, they stop storing cortisol, their fat pads start to diminish (the toxins stored there start to dissipate) they can be ridden, they get skinnier, their mind gets stimulated more, they are happier, you are happier.  It's really simple.

All for the want of a shoe  cheers  

Erin:

If a horse is fine for months on end and then, one day horse colics would you blame diet?  NOTHING changed that the owner could control, IMO it was weather related.  What should the owner do?  How do you prevent the laminitis that resulted from the colic episode?  

Sometimes it has nothing to do with what we do, sometimes it just is.
appellativo

ok thanks for clarifying your statement
Chablis

Oh what a timely reminder to lock my horses off their paddocks from this weekend - spring is about to start in Australia and we have had quite a bit of rain this winter.
PasoBaby_CarolU

Kim Cassidy wrote:


I know its not always just about the feet.  I'm trying to say that sometimes it is just about the feet.

They get in pain, they release cortisol, they retain fat, they need places to deposit it, they get in more pain due to more cortisol release, more glucose, more more more.  They can't move because their feet hurt, you can't ride as they develop laminitis, abscesses, etc.

You put shoes on, their feet stop hurting, they stop storing cortisol, their fat pads start to diminish (the toxins stored there start to dissipate) they can be ridden, they get skinnier, their mind gets stimulated more, they are happier, you are happier.  It's really simple.

All for the want of a shoe  cheers  



Kim, I don't think it is ever that simple.  Maybe with mechanical founder, but not with metabolic founder.

I'll use your horse as a case in point.  If every time you take the shoes off her, she is lame, have you stopped this cycle and cured your horse?  Or is she still in need of the bandage...forever until you stop the cycle?  

With Bien, I kept her in casts from April through Christmas, exercising her almost daily and on a strict low sugar diet.   I tried several times to see how she'd be without casts, but always lame again.  Finally at Christmas she was able to move without casts, and remains 'sound' to this day, with regular exercise and diet control.   Do I think she'd be lame again if I let her out on grass after a rain. Yes, I definitely do.  She has a metabolic problem.
Kim Cassidy

Carol:

Finn's whole story is up on my website and I've repeated it to the point, people are probably going to kill me  

Finn was barefoot for over 7 years while I tried every cure under the sun.  Every diet and supplement and restriction on grass, boots, pads, this trim, that trim etc.

Do you know what repeated laminitic attacks do to the inner workings of the vascular structures of the hoof?  Pollitt has some studies out that are fascinating.

Finn would get wicked lamintis in the spring and in the winter.  Come February when the ground froze and the temps plunged to 0 or below, he'd founder.  Spring okay we could possibly say grass, even though I kept him in a dry lot.  Winter - NO GRASS.  Fed only tested hay, supplemented to balance it with the latest research.

Cresty neck, wicked digital pulses dropped soles.

Shoes stopped all that.  So no, I'm not going back to barefoot anytime soon (with him).  Maybe 2 years out here in the desert will reorganize his foot enough that I can.  I'm not married to any outcome, I just take it one shoeing at a time.  

Out here when I've pulled his shoes he walks good but then the 190 or 165 degree ground starts to cook his feet and he gets digital pulses.  I put the shoes back on, dp's go away.

Do I want to spend the money I do on Epona's, NO.  Do I want to spend the amount of time it takes to put on Epona's. NO.  I'd much prefer barefoot horses, cheaper and easier on the body.

Unfortunately, I don't get to choose, he does.

I would say he is metabolic and currently I'm managing it via shoes.  He gets Bermuda hay, a half can of oats and a handful of Alfalfa 1x a day and a handful of Oregon Timothy 1x a day.  And when I say handful, I mean a handful.  Timothy bales approximately 100lbs cost 22 a bale.  I bought a bale on May 15 and I still have it

He is thin, muscled, no crest and we are both happy.

Is his story, the same story as your horse, nope.  I'm not saying that.  If my beloved Epona's are the band aid that allows Finn's feet to not hurt and us to ride, which he does willingly, then I'll put them on as long as I need to.

Once again, just mentioning that there are many answers when it comes to horses.  That is what is simple, one must explore all options and always get the answer for what is best from the horse.
PasoBaby_CarolU

Kim Cassidy wrote:
one must explore all options and always get the answer for what is best from the horse.


I totally agree.  Your previous post just made it sound like putting shoes on a horse (any horse) will cure it of metabolic disorders and founder.   I think we agree that different treatments are necessary for different horses.

I look at is a tri-pod:  Trim/shoes, diet and exercise.   You can't address the third part until you have accomplished the first part.  The second part alone will not cure a horse's feet.
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