Healthy Stride

ladycfp · Healthy Stride

Can someone point me to a resource other than Healthy Stride website that explains what this is all about?

My daughter showed me a blog post today from another young lady she keeps up with online that featured a visit from a Healthy Stride farrier (I use that term- not sure it fits) where they were blowtorching a horse's hoof. The finished product photo looked like they had melted away at least the bottom half of two of this horse's hooves, filled in with what looked like asphalt and then added a shoe of some kind. There were no before pictures but the horse was described as "lame and clubfoot" before and sound as a stone after.

This just looks WRONG. Actually, it looks like animal cruelty. The young lady who has the blog is a Parelli enthusiast (VERY enthused) and I have emailed her asking her for more insight. There must be something I am missing here. I did a search on this forum for Healthy Stride and I see am not the only one who thinks this is madness, but where are the resources in support of my gut reaction? Thanks.

jokersmama

You might also try asking over on the horseshoes.com BB

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/index.php

there are tons of very outspoken very knowledgeable farriers over there that are eager to give their opinions. Just be prepared for a train wreck.

oldmac_donald

I know the blog you are talking about. I almost posted the HS post here so many times, but refrained as the young girl is a member here.

There are a couple of excellent threads on this forum about HS - search for Healthy Stride, Jim Crew/Crewe, Remmer's feet

As for the blowtorch? I HAVE heard about similar being used. No, don't think it hurts as long as you are super careful - bit like applying a hot shoe to the hoof - loads of smoke, and the horn "burns" but the horse doesn't feel it. I have a friend whose club-footed horse is being gradually trimmed back into shape - the farrier (who is brilliant, believes highly in barefooting, and has given me some excellent tips) is planning a demo at my mate's place, and mentioned using some heating device, might of been a blow torch, in the demo to get some of this horse's hoof down more easily. The ground is so hard and dry that the hooves are next to impossible to file.

We use angle grinders at times. No kidding!

Still, those pics of the HS stuff? Looks hokey!

ladycfp

I'm not looking for a train wreck and I have asked the sweet, smart young lady who posted the pictures and raved about the technique on her blog to enlighten me. I am pretty sure she will share some information with me, but I hope it is something other than what I have already read on HS'd website (which she posted a link to for those wanting more information.)

My daughter has a couple of books and DVD's (Pete Ramey and Jamie Jackson) she is reading on the topic since she is shadowing our trimmer and learning about the skill. I have asked her to dive in and see if they address the issue of foot shimming (not to mention, foot melting.)

I guess what I think I'll find here is a biomechanical resource for why this technique works (or doesn't.) Honestly, this picture I saw of this horse's feet (granted, I did not see because she did not post a BEFORE shot) made me shudder.

I am willing to be educated on this topic, but just the facts, please. Hold the train wrecks.

oldmac_donald

Foot shimming? I don't think you'll ever find Pete or Jamie advocating that! You need to find (and read) the thread on Remmer's feet.

Healthy Stride IS a train wreck. The man who "invented" it is an ex-TWH shoer, and seems to have a very warped idea of biomechanics.

Off the top of my head, you may want the input of Leah, ForgeNHammer, and Nashama on this top, as they are all involved in the hoof care industry (or in bodyworks, with a hubby in hoof care, as in Nashama's case)

happycat

oldmac_donald

Happycat, that was this horse's deal too. Previous farrier was actually making the horse worse!

Now his hoof looks like a hoof again!

karmikacres

It looks to me like they performed a resection.
I hope I am wrong.

Mike

PasoBaby_CarolU

There is a product called Hoof Armor that uses wraps (like Perfect Hoofware) and a plastic filler for the sole and frog area. You melt it and set it with a hairdryer (blowtorch??). My farrier saw it used and it worked pretty much like Perfect Hoofware worked, making a laminitic horse pain-free in one application.

It sounds similar to what you are describing.

http://www.hoofarmor.com/HoofArmorapplication.htm

oldmac_donald

LOL @ Paso! Good lord, I am not drying my hair at your place, my dear! Joking, I don't use one anyway as my hair is the super-dry-quick variety, and we do live in the tropics.

No, she meant a real blowtorch. Like, welding.

I think he was just softening the edges of the hoof. Like I said, heard of it used by someone I'd trust to trim or shoe my horses (none of that shimming crap, just excellent knowledge of hoof form and function).

I can't say I liked the finished hoof though, in this case.

I'm happy to PM anyone with the address, the blog owner is a member and I don't wish to upset her or distress her. Her post was quite interesting, and I would love to have you guys discuss it, but I guess we'd need her permission first and have to be very rational and thoughtful in our posting.

karmikacres

jokersmama

I didn't mean train wreck here- I meant over on the horseshoes bb. Everyone on here is usually very well behaved angel4

I googled healthy stride and saw the pics and blog you're talking about, yikes never seen that done before I see something new everyday.

I have questions also:

First- the horse in the blog looks to me (my untrained eye anyway) like it has some rotation, hard to tell much without more views of the hoof though.

Second- wouldn't heating the hoof like that cause the heat to travel into the hoof capsule??

I'm just thinking you can heat the outside of something and get whats inside to boil...

http://brother-fred.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=46897612

What is the purpose of this, is he killing bacteria??

creekwood

ladycfp

Yes, a propane torch.

Someone's got some 'splainin' to do. I am sure there is a lot of stuff I am ignorant of that once understood, might make sense. I have an open mind, bring it on.

I want to hear the rationale behind this:

PasoBaby_CarolU

What is the thought process behind hot shoeing? Isn't it searing the bottom of the foot to cauterize it?

I saw a product used similar to that Anne. It was an epoxy resin that was mixed and used to plug cracks and chips on hoofs that had "disintegrated" and there wasn't healthy hoof to nail to. I don't recall if he used a torch to melt it all together, but he did clean trim, then hot shoe, then use the epoxy resin to fill in all the holes and cracks in the hoof wall so it met the shoe. It definitely helped the horse.

I had never seen feet crumble away like this...and what is worse, the horse was here, a client horse, when it happened. The horse had come up from Arizona, had horribly dry feet, and when confronted with my hard clay, her feet disintegrated. That is the only way to describe it. I kept her in betadine soaked pads and medicine boots until the farrier could fix her.

I should add that the owner no longer uses his previous farrier, or the farrier who helped her, but does his own barefoot trimming, puts hoof dressing on his horses regularly and uses boots. She has nice, healthy feet now.

oldmac_donald

'K, the white foot has a very distinct ski jump, so back the toes the hell up, and I'm thinking those heels are WAY too long. Hence the club foot - which, to my very untrained eye, looks like a badly trimmed foot. The club foot I see most days at my mate's place is like a box. Less like a box now, but hell no WAY was there a ski ramp like that one has.

My own toes hurt.

I concede, propane torch

I did spot riveting in high school, that count?

I think the guy who does my friend's horse was going to use his forge to heat the hoof - by this I think he meant the old fashioned way of hot-shoeing (without nailing it on) and then trimming. No torching of the foot.

YIKES! That black sure looks.... burnt. My hooves are always paler when I expose wall, and never that far up. Maybe 1cm!

karmikacres

Lowering the heels on a club foot is not the answer as it changes all the joint spacing. The best results I have had are just to apply a balanced trim. I have seen big changes in club feet as they return to healthy structure. Every time I have lowered the heels, even just a bit, on our clubby guy has caused him to be sore.

Mike

oldmac_donald

I don't know, for some horses who have become clubbed through trimming, lowering the heels very gradually can help. Very gradually, mind you. I've yet to see the clubbed hoofed horse here be sore after a trim, and MAN! The guy has whacked heaps off of him at times, and tiny bits at others. Guess it comes down to reading the hoof and the horse and the situation.

ladycfp

I am genuinely interested in understanding this. It's hard for me not to be horrified by what I see, but I am trying to balance that with my realization that I know so little about hoof care. Thankfully I have 3 horses with healthy, bare feet, but that could change any time in theory.

While I did not know the blogger was a member here, I don't NOT know it either. It was (is) immaterial to me. She is a fine young lady who is doing the best she can with what she knows, which is a ton, I think. She strives to share her gifts and passions, hence her blog. Someone is going to learn something as a result of this, bet it's me. I love it when that happens.

karmikacres

Yeah, but is he taking only heel or heel and toe?

The clubby radiographs I have seen show good joint spacing, and I would not want to change that just to lower the heels.

Mike

cynthia peterson

Mike, I have a question I have been thinking about. I have seen a fair amount of racehorses in their 2nd career with weak back tendons. They have been injured or strained in their racing years. They will buckle the leg and even quiver after a show class. I know that check tendon is ruined and the horse is actually trying to stay up from falling by using their legs like we do, by the leg muscles, then the check tendons horses have on the front and back of the leg. Horses, of course have these, unlike other mammals because they have a shoulder different then other mammals (another lesson with a long story there) SO~ if the horse was shod with shims and high heels, artificially making a clubfoot,~ would not that damage, or at the very least challenge the check tendons from doing it's job? And, thus casing a horse to stumble more. It is true, a horse with a true clubfoot does stumble more, for the very reason I am illustrating. I have been taught, all clubfeet are caused by a injury, either in the womb ( laying wrong) or after. It is not a genitic fault.

karmikacres

Artificially clubfoot, yes. I have heard of a horse that was so shimmed it could not sleep due to the inability to lock its legs.

Mike

creekwood

ForgeNHammer

The blow torch is to dry out the bottom of the foot so the equipak adheres to the foot. The horse has no clue what is going on and it doesn't mess up the foot. I hot fit shoes all day that are way hotter than that blow torch.

Nashama

Sorry, can't help with the blow torch, not a bit of gear in either of our toolkits, but clubbing of hooves has various causes.

The first is genetic, in which case you work with the natural hoof. Horses are born like it. The bones are set like it and they are very upright.

The clubbing Glen and I deal with as a team is from injury, most often as a foal but many an older horse has dragged the toe until they have a "club" hoof. This requires location of the body problem and gradual lowering of the heels, plus tendon rehabilitation on the club hoof, most notably of the suspensories. I use acutherapy on the tendon and it's currently in a very successful clinical trial for the red light therapy research team on Nashama himself.

Where the horse has a ski jump, that indicates a lot of pressure on the toe and a very sore shoulder and forearm. There will be a corresponding high and contracted heel and usually a long toe on the other foreleg. Shimming/orthotics mostly exacerbate the problem.

The most common areas of origin I find of injury for this clubbing are the chest and belly - sternum, pectorals, pre-pubic tendons, groin. By the time you see the clubbing the deep shoulder muscles, neck and back, often spreading as far as the hindquarter muscles will be affected.

A lot of clinicians never go past the back and shoulders, but, of course, we have Nashama, who is our darkness, our light and our inspiration. Eventually we found the origin on him after a chance comment by a client - a kinked left pre-pubic tendon. My tip on horses with clubbing is to get someone to look at their chest, belly and groin then do their shoulders and topline. Whatever is stopping the leg's full range of motion is probably affecting the use of the pectorals.

I have never seen this fixed with shoes, only masked. Bones will only do what muscles allow them to do, so first up is your muscle person with your barefoot trimmer or barefoot educated farrier to pull the shoes, assess and massage the horse, and decide when to get the chiropractor in. If you are lucky enough to have a skilled acutherapist, then they can boost the healing along and work on the tendons and get excellent results. Depending on the severity, our test subjects are getting 6-8 acutherapy treatments in 3 weeks and we are recording some exciting results for the research team.

Biomechamically, all of this is visible when the horse is walking. You can see the dragging toe, the unevenly muscled shoulders, and the uneveness in gait. You can check the hoof prints and see a toe first landing. You can see which foreleg is swinging to avoid a particular range of motion.

Hope that's some help.

Clarissa

Just going back to the heat thing. I think horses do feel heat through their hooves.

I have watched horses picking up one hoof after the other in a sandy arena on very hot days. One particular day was so bad Sonny refused to go back into the arena when the cutting was over. He was OK while the cutting was on as he was distracted & was moving a lot. But each time we stopped in the turn back line he would start lifting each foot in turn or trying to move to the fence.

Then after the cattle were removed, I wanted to do some practice but he would wheel around quite determindly each time I asked him to walk onto the sand. He would shake (like trying to remover the saddle type shake), throw his head up & wheel around. That was very unusual for him so I figured he was getting very hot feet since I had watched other horses having trouble too.

Their riders were chastizing the horse for getting out of place in the turn back line or not remaining still. One mare was marching on the spot. It was a very hot day & the sand was a clayish dusty fine sand. I got off Sonny & walked across the arena & the heat went right through my boot soles!!

Sonny has always had thin soles & walls, so obviously the heat was getting through & he was telling me in the only way I would listen.

Enough said!

ForgeNHammer

Well I think if the blow torch was left on there for a minute or so the horse might not like that. But I hot fit all day and horses don't budge, which tells me they are comfortable. A horse will respond to pain.

cynthia peterson

So, of course, the blow torch would be used just like any professional does with any tool (including the bit) with feel and timing. The farrier knows how much, how long, where at....

ladycfp

From my perspective, as someone without a great deal of knowledge of foot care for horses, this "looked" like they were maiming this horse. I am wrong about this?

I don't know much about this technique other than what I've read at their website, comments here and other boards which seem subjective. Do I understand this is a temporary, corrective process that will culminate in a healthy hoof? Or is it a situation where once you start, you have to keep on with it?

Gosh, you guys, don't make me ask Dr. Deb. She scares the crap out of me!

cynthia peterson

Mike did point out to me that the torch was being uded by the OWNER, not a professional. Holy crap, I hope the owner doesn't set her pretty hair on fire! I was responding to ForgeandHammers post as to the heat...

Dr Deb.... I do like her (but I am too afraid to ask questions too) I kinda' think of her as one of those frustrated artist types. She's like that bossy Aunt we all had that had the wrong attitude and the right answers about our life (but we didn't want to hear them). She does have very good answers. Her new Conformation DVDs are very good info. The woman certainly would have a hissyfit about the blow torch I beleive.

Nashama

The hoof is a living structure. I would not consider blow torching the hoof for extended periods of time for any reason to be a desirable thing. Over an extnded period of time my expectation would be that it may do considerable damage to the hooves with drying, cracking and burning if it is held on for that length of time.

ladycfp

Well, I've gone and done it. I've asked Dr. Deb.

Just waiting for the slapdown.

Nashama

The only stupid question is the one you don't ask, so let the slapdown roll off and take any info she cares to give.

jokersmama

And please post it here!

jwilhite

ladycfp

Here was her response to my query. She wants to sell me something.
I am not buying it, either. Literally or figuratively.

Dear Lady: Horseshoes, when properly and intelligently used, are nothing more nor less than orthotics. The purpose of horseshoeing is -- or should be -- primarily orthopedic -- just the same as the purpose of hoof trimming should be to achieve orthopedic goals. Hoof trim and/or appliances definitely affect stance, and I have been preaching 'whole horse shoeing' for most of my working life -- that was the title of my talk to the American Farriers' Association when I spoke to their national convention in 1985, for example. So yes, of course there is a biomechanical basis for the use of appliances.

If you have been reading here long, you will already know that I am not a fan of the 'barefoot' fad -- and the above paragraph will tell you why. It is not horseshoes that are 'snake oil' but the insistence on horses being barefoot 'no matter what' or 'because it is more natural'.

Some horses are OK barefoot. Some are not. There is no such thing as 'natural' in horsemanship or horse-keeping: there is not and there cannot be. Everything that happens to a horse when it is under human control is up to the human. Don't let the use of the word "natural" dull your awareness of this fact. I repeat: keeping your horse barefoot is no more "natural" than keeping him in shoes. You DECIDE to do one or the other hopefully on entirely rational grounds -- because it is what the horse needs and what makes him the most comfortable under whatever conditions of substrate and work he finds himself.

I have no idea whose marketing you may be reading, and it makes no difference. There are people who work as farriers who get an idea for a design for an orthotic (a particular type of horseshoe or pad or plastic appliance or what-have-you), and they carry their idea through to the manufacturing stage. This costs money which they then need to amortize through sales. That's how the world works. Historically, there have been about forty gazillion 'patent' designs for horseshoes -- go look in Doug Butler's old book, if you want to see a goodly amount of them.

YOUR job, therefore, is to know enough about equine anatomy, conformation, biomechanics, and orthopedics to allow you to discriminate between products or procedures that don't work at all or that don't work as advertised, vs. those that might be of benefit to your horse.

This is where Equine Studies Institute comes in. Our purpose is to educate you so that you can be the kind of consumer that you need to be -- in short, the kind of consumer who can be a good boss and supervisor to the farrier whom you employ (you are, of course, the boss: you pay the bills and you bear the primary responsibility). If you look through our Bookstore and Membership sections, you will find several items that more or less anticipate your question. I particularly recommend that you buy both of the following:

1. The 2003 "Inner Horseman" back issue set ($25) -- this is essentially a book which teaches limb and hoof anatomy in depth, with wonderful 3D color illustrations, and which is entitled 'Orthopedic principles in horseshoeing.'

2. The new "Conformation Biomechanics" DVD set ($89.95) -- 7 1/2 hrs. of instruction which will open your eyes as to how your horse's limbs and feet are structured, and a number of common hoof malformations.

I think after you see these two things, you will be much more capable of taking a global view, and much less susceptible to being victimized by any of the many fads that come and go, about every two or three years, in the farriery industry. The purpose of these publications is to give you a rock to stand on. -- Dr. Deb

PasoBaby_CarolU

I've never read or watched either of her referenced materials, but 300% agree with her response. You do what is best for the horse, weather it is barefoot or shoes. Period.

I just witnessed again, a woman who was determined to ride barefoot, even after I told her horse was sore. Her response was, "Oh no, she's tough."

Nashama

She did not really give an answer to the question, and I both agree and disagree with her. She states herself farriery fads come and go every few years. Perhaps she may like to think about how long going shoeless has been around. :lol:

karmikacres

Has anyone ever seen a horse get shimmed less over time?

Mike

Nashama

Yes, in cases of acute tendon damage where in the first week or two the vet has taken the tension off the tendon then gradually brought the tendon back into full function. We often use hoof boots to deal with acute hoof injury and as the hoof heals the horse comes out of the boots. Most racing farriers can virtually build a hoof wall with various compounds if there is a chunk out of the hoof. Which is reduced and eliminated as the hoof heals.

ladycfp

What is the protocol for sharing information posted here, elsewhere? For example, in this thread, I was pointed to a couple other Forums that had a good deal of information on this particular topic, and I was grateful for the resource.

This is a public forum (I think?) so would it be appropriate to, as was done here, point someone on another Forum to this one, either to a particular thread or (as I had in mind) suggesting they search for the topic on this forum (and others) and provide the link to the forum via email?

I guess what I am asking, is how can I share something I learned here, somewhere else? Hope that all made sense. Geez, trying to remember if I took a vow or something. Thanks.

Nashama

You can, but if it's the one we have both said something on, then you may get abused. Do so privately or the thread will get nuked, if it has not already been nuked as we are not raving about one of Linda's fads. That particular Board is not one where free speech is allowed.

You could point her here to some of Forge'N'Hammer's work, which are good examples of shoeing then get her to compare it to some of the photos here, which are bad examples of shoeing and biomechanical adjustment. Simplest way might be to find the threads where Forge'N'Hammer has posted some of his work, then find the one where Magic has the shoe half way up her foot with the rest trailing out behind for her to step on and rip herself open with.

ladycfp

Yeah, it is that thread, and I did PM her as she requested, and I asked her to email me off list and I would be happy to share some links with her.

I thought I would share the two posted here that I found useful, and thought I'd share this board too and suggest she search it for HS without supplying specific links. She is interested or she wouldn't ask. I had no intention of posting it on the SC. I am surprised it hasn't been yanked as it is, tame as the comments are. Must be too busy with NEC is what I figure.

Nashama

We're all being very close mouthed on what we observe. I show potential equine body workers and barefoot trimmers the Patterns DVD's because they are poor examples of shoeing.

jwilhite

Nashama

Newfman

Mike

Kiparra

Nashama

Newfman

Kiparra

Hi,
I know it was a few months ago that i was on and the last reply was made but i just thought i would let you know that i had my farrier out to trim not long after the Healthy stride lady was out.
He doesnt know much about healthy stride but he doesnt like the sound of it so he explained the process he goes through when trimming a horse and explained as he went with my horse. he really knows his stuff.
We were both so pleased with how her seedy toe was going and she pretty much free of it in one foot- without shoes.
I think i might stick to normal trimming as my horse is going fine with it.

thanks for your ideas and thoughts on HS.

Chablis

Kiparra

Thanks Emma. I do like him. He isnt as 'natural' as i would like but he has never lost his patience with my horse, even when she tried to kill him with a dentists gag and then bit his finger within like 5mins (he also does dentistry).
I used to use another guy but found this present one more experienced and knowledgable in treating seedy toe.
Thanks to his help we are starting to beat it:)
Didnt one of your babies have seedy toe?

Chablis

Kiparra

Hi Emma,
yeah hes pretty good. I like the fact that he is not out to get my money. He always tells me the options if things need doing and tells me what is more economic for me.

Glad to hear that Darius hasnt been lame with his seedy toe and that it is improving. It is a big job trying to keep it clean as much as possible. I certainly agree about the rain. Kips paddock is so sloppy at the moment and then she goes and walks through the swamp which just doesnt help and all.

Allowing the mud to get out of the holes is so important. My last farrier never opened up the holes so that the mud could fall out. this guy i use now he opened then right up and so the mud doesnt get stuck (most of the time).

I hope you can get Darius' feet fixed up so you can clean the holes properly and get the ointment into them.

Oh what a frustrating thing seedy toe is!!

How is your girl going with her sarcoids?

Chablis

Kiparra

man that looks nasty!!

yeah last thing you want is the hoof growning with the dirt in it. you dont want a little pocket of dirt trapped up there with seedy toe running a muck.
im not sure if that can happen but it wouldnt be fun either way.

my farrier said that the hoof can grow over objects like tiny stones and that, so i give Kips feet a good clean and scrub with a dandy brush every few days to clear any stones out.
i also wash them in ACV and epsom salts once-twice a week to kill nasties.

wish i could just get her a pair of gum boots!!

Chablis

Chablis

Hmm... Maybe I should start a new thread as our conversation doesn't relate to Health Stride method, Kip.

Anyways, vet and trimmer lined up for today & tomorrow. I managed to leave my mobile (cell) phone at home today so will now have to wait until I get home tonight before I know what the vets diagnosis is.

Kiparra

lol, yeah i was thinking the same thing about a new thread!! haha!

a friend has just ordered some Cleantrax from the US for her horse and mine (both have seedy toe and hers also has abscesses). it is said to be very good stuff for cleaning the feet and killing nasties. we have also ordered soaking boots. it will be interesting to see the result of using it. but if you are interested i can send you some info about cleantrax. we cant get it here in Oz, hence it has had to be ordered from the US.

how did the vet and farrier visit to Darius go?

Chablis

Kiparra

Hey Emma,
thats great news about Darius and your mare (sorry i always forget her name). You deserve to hear some positive feedback about your horses:)
Darius must be feeling a lot better if he is mucking around again!

The guy at Cleantrax said he can ship directly to us. I only found out that they will ship to Australia through my friend in Yass because she contacted them asking if there was anywhere in Australia to get the stuff and if not was there anyway of getting some shipped. the guy is fully of good knowledge and knows about the fungus of seedy toe as he has a Ph.d in microbiology and has done work in pathogenic mycology (fungus stuff).

Some of the info he gave me is contradictory to what i have been told and what you have i am sure regarding treatments. but i figure that cleantrax is worth a try.

I might have to order more since i only ordered one bottle this time and i need 2 so if you want i can order you some when i do so.

I dont think i have your personal email but if you pm it to me i would be more than happy to send through the emails that my friend and i have been conversing with him through and if i can find it, a web link about cleantrax.

Chablis

Kiparra

Thats right, i thought it started with M. I kept thinking Mingy but i knew that wasnt right because that is the name of the neighbours little horse i have done some work with!!