herd sour

bit · herd sour

Eclpse is herd sour, always has been. I know enough to understand this has got to be partly on my shoulders. To get another horse, would it be the same issues because it's my issue too? She's so much better, but I tell ya, I'm tired of fighting. My hands close very slowly. I ask with my seat and my legs. I make the wrong thing hard and the right thing easy. It's like she looses her mind. I'm never scared, but my back hurts and it really beats me up. Serpentining, roll backs, barrel patterns, rrd's, bending the head, and then she'll surrender, lower her head and she's back. Gosh guys, what the heck am I doing wrong?

Mandy'sMarty

Deb--Which horse, in your band, is the band leader?

PasoBaby_CarolU

All those work activities help to keep her adrenalin up. I know this is what Buck, Clinton, and a few others recommend but I've found they don't work to well on my horses. Some things I've done before that you might try is to take a simple low-adrenalin pattern, like Figure 8 around two cones. Do it close in calmly and reward her. Gradually move the cones farther and farther away and only stop each place when she is calm. Try to avoid getting her adrenalin up and keep her left brained.

Another thing is a John Lyons method where you ride a little ways out. Before she gets bothered you ride back. Do this again and again until she isn't worried at all about that distance and always knows she is coming back. Gradually add distance and time away from the herd as she gains confidence.

I personally like to put some trail obstacles there and keep moving them out so she knows what is expected of her (similar to the Figure 8s) but she also gains confidence in you by navigating the obstacles.

Another thing you can do is trailer just her somewhere, like a fairgrounds and ride her around without her herd. Just you. If you are uncomfortable riding her, just lead her the first few times until she knows you're taking her for a walk and will bring her home again.

And one other thing, some mares just need to think about it. I've seen this before with otherwise confident horses. Go out as far as she goes BEFORE she goes RB and just sit there and wait. Wait as long as it takes. She'll eventually take a step forward.

bit

Marty, she's lead mare. Carol, I asked this morning. You know, woo woo asked, and got pretty much what you said. Approach and retreat. I think I took her too far and blew her mind. I needed to go more slowly and give her time to be ok with this. If I trailer her, she is still worried. Working close to home and not stressing her out is probably gong to be the way to go. Fri it's warming right up, and I'll let ya know how it goes. Once we are at peace with it, I bet I'll be able to trailer her and she'll be just fine with that too. Thanks for letting me vent.

Mandy'sMarty

Deb--I tend to agree with what Carol suggests. I'll add to that what I believe I experienced with Mandy.

Like Eclipse, Mandy is the band leader. After I bought her, I moved her to a farm where we had 450 acres to ride. She was very unwilling to leave the sight of her pasture mates. It took me months to solve this. Finally, I came up with the idea of sending my Lab, Bodacious, out in front of us on the trail. It worked. For whatever reason, Mandy became willing to explore those 450 acres as long as Bodacious was out in front. I now believe it was a way of changing Mandy's pattern and giving her something novel to focus on.

Later, I found it difficult to get Mandy to willingly load up in my trailer. Her issues were complex, but I believe I unraveled one of them after we returned from one of our first long weekends of endurance riding. When I returned Mandy back to her pasture, I soon realized that the dynamics within her band had changed. In fact, the band of 7 had collapsed within the herd of 33 horses. Mandy's band was no more.

That's when I began to believe that Mandy had not been 'herd sour' due to the fear of separation from the safety of her companions. She was worried about her responsibility as band leader. I began to reconsider Mandy's initial unwillingness to explore the acreage at the farm with me. It dawned on me that perhaps she also felt responsible for me and was worried and very cautious when we rode away from the familiar pasture. She probably felt more comfortable for my safety when Bodacious was out front on point for our patrol of three.

When I began to reframe Mandy's behavior it all started to make sense. She is the lead mare that all the other horses look to for guidance. She is very confident and dominant in a quiet way. Yet at times she is very slow and appears unwilling to move into new territory. And unwilling to leave her herd. I started to see that she is willing to move into new territory when she is ready. When she determines it is safe for those for whom she feels responsible.

With time, Mandy's behavior changed and she became willing to explore new places. I believe that the adventures we began having away from her farm established a new pattern for Mandy. She began to assume her new role as my endurance partner and her role as lead mare found a different place within her that was not so demanding. In a way, I think Mandy re-invented herself.

Today Mandy lives on a much smaller farm and she has a much smaller herd living with her. There is only one gelding, who thinks he's boss, and six other mares in her band. Her life is simpler with fewer responsibilities. We have found a public park of 200 acres less than a 15 minute trailer ride away. Mandy readily loads up in our trailer. I'm sure she is eager to get a change of scenery...and I can tell she seems to enjoy traveling at 55 miles an hour. I strive to make sure that every time we trailer away from her farm, we do something that is fun for her.

I've noticed this year that Mandy is now unwilling to break into a gallop whenever I cue her at the park. It's not because she can't gallop. She can. In fact, I've never known her to pass up an opportunity to fly like the wind when asked. I believe she is worried about Bodacious, who is going to be 12 in April. Bo can usually still keep up with us at a collected trot, but quickly gets left behind at a gallop. Mandy knows this. And I'm sure she feels responsible for her old friend. Once a lead mare, always a lead mare.

PasoBaby_CarolU

That is an excellent observation Marty. I see the same thing with Zar, and I think it's why she prefers to be the lead horse. She is not competitive but she likes to be in front to protect her herd...all the horses behind her. She takes this role very seriously, even chasing cows or deer off the trail.

As for worrying about their herd position, that is true too. Bien and Zar are both lead mares. I tried a few times and finally gave up keeping them in the pasture together. They would fight and I was too worried one would get hurt. But I have them across the fence from each other. They even sleep side-by-side with their ears back, each making sure the other doesn't make a move on 'their herd' while she sleeps.

There is still so much we learn about horses all the time. I love these two and their "mare games." I honestly don't think I'll own another gelding after the current three are gone. I love my prissy and pissy girls. LOL

jackspark

Lyons here. I solved this same problem doing the inch away and come back method. After awhile you'll be amazed at how calm everyone gets cause they just know you'll be right back and so there's no sense getting themselves all worked up

coveredbridgefarm

I think Carolyn Resnick has an interesting idea for dealing with this type of problem. She suggests feeding a barn sour horse outside of the enclosure where the horse normally resides, and then taking the horse away from the bucket before it's finished and put it back in the herd. Before long, the horse begins to miss the unfinished feed more than it misses the herd. Eventually, the horse forgets about the herd and begins to look forward to getting outside. Move the feeding area further and further away from the barn each time.

You can even place a bucket of feed somewhere along a trail and the horse begins to anticipate the feed more than it misses the herd. The key is to take the horse away from the bucket while there is still feed left in the bucket. Do this daily for awhile until you get the effect you're looking for.

Larry

bit

Remember, I ripped her away from her herd for two months when I sent her down to Missouri for training. Must have done some damage. sigh. I'm just going to take it slow, at her pace and I know we'll work it out. I took her too far, too fast, and she let me know how it hurt her. Thankfully, horses are very forgiving!

Clarissa

Yes I agree with the group here too. Stretch the rubber band slowly by what ever devious means you need to use including bribery Deb.

When one thing fails after the third try & you’re sure you’ve been asking right, do the opposite & asses.

I used to have trouble with Sonny since he had placed himself as herd minder so when they were out of view he started up & often put on a really good rodeo display as well as screaming his tits off.

I spent years learning how to get inside his head for this very thing. In the end I had to pander to his male mind by making him feel special when in my space (which was also away from the others). It didn’t take very many days before he was looking out for me to wave him up for treats, grooming, scratches, walkies for good grass along the road in the dry season. When I rode I would let him graze that same good grass for a while before doing anything so in his eyes the ride was apparently for the benefit of him eating grass rather than me teaching anything or us going anywhere. That stopped all the crap immediately.

HopeMissouri

Deb, my horses are pretty independent on the trails AWAY FROM HOME. I can ride away from the trailhead, alone, with not much concern. My riding friend can ride out of sight on the trail, and my horses couldn't care less. I'm confortable, they're confident.

Yet, if I ride down my own street too far, my guys are looking around for their home pals.

We ride a lot more often away from home than in our higher traffic neighborhood. I'm more concerned about how they're behaving at home because I've witnessed their sillyness on our own street. If it was really important for me to ride down my street, I'd do it more often, riding only as far as I was comfortable going, then turning around. I know from experience, that I'd have to ride my street nearly everyday and in the beginning, stay fairly close to home.

I like being with my friends and family. I suspect my horses feel the same way.

bit

Gosh, such good riding here, just down the dirt roads. I think I will trailer her down that way, park and hope she's confused. My friend's barn has a road that loops around. She's never sure where the hell home is. I hate to use the diesel, especially since we can go right out the back door. I think consistancy will help a lot. Can't wait for this weather to do that...29 one day, 55, then 8, then 48.

Hertha

Hi DeBit.

Boots I think is similar to Mandy. It may have been something Marty wrote a while back that put the idea into my mind that Boots was worried at times because she felt responsible for me as well as herself.

Clicker training with mats is another possibility.

You can free-shape her interest in a mat and make the mat a totally sweet spot because the mat always means a click/treat is forthcoming.

Once they love one mat it seems easy for them to love any mat. A mat always means CLICK/TREAT.

Then you can play with two mats any distance you like apart. You can do a simple loop from one mat to the other mat.

You can lay out a triangle of mats, two rows of mats, circles of mats.

You'd use the mats in the same way as PasoCarol described moving your play objects. The mats are just more specific and a darn lot easier to move around

Laying out some mats down your trails within her confidence bubble might work because it gives her ownership of where she is going - she can see a reason for going there - she'll be looking for her next mat.

As her confidence increases, you can move the mats further out, lay out whole series of mats and gradually increase the distances between them. You can lay them out in a circuit that brings her back home. She may well focus on the next mat rather than the whole deal of rushing home.

It's like Larry wrote about C Resnick's thing with the bucket of feed. Again, mats are so much easier to manage.

I got a heap of free mats by rolling into the local carpet shop and asked for their expired samples 'books'. I explained why I wanted them and the chap was quite intrigued.

Definitely agree with PasoCarol about keeping it all low-key. She'll tell you if the mats are too far away and you just bring them closer.

It's also easy to take the mats to any other place you want to get her confident and just do the familiar mat games there.

I call this Destination Training. Like us, horses like to know their destination rather than be pushed into the unknown like going on a mystery tour.

PM me if you want more details

PasoBaby_CarolU

That's a great idea Hertha.

You always amaze me with your imagination and ingenuity. I think this would work with a lot of horses.

bit

I just got this cartoon image of me on Eclipse, tossing mats in front of us, click treat!, as we move down the road. I think what I need to do is keep our first tries where she can see the herd, until she is comfy. Food always trumps herd.
10 degrees out, so I think it will be tomorrow, 50's, until I can put plan into action. We are headed out today, so I will see if I can find a carpet outlet to get some mats. Otherwise I'll pick up some hula hoops.
Funny how a lot of folks would think this is about being herd sour, cough cough, but it's really about something so much more. Horsemanship appears to be about looking beyond that which appears. Just like life.

HopeMissouri

Unless you do it often, riding away from your own pasture is going to be more difficult than trailering away to ride elsewhere. Your horse is likely to be more concerned about her herd when she's home. Don't think it has anything to do with taking her away to the trainer. It's just horse nature.

There was a time I even had difficulty keeping Chip and Jazz's minds on me in our arena, adjacent to our front pasture where they could see the other horses in the distance. Taking them even farther away to the house to saddle could be quite a deal. It was easier for me to keep my riding horses' attention by keeping them more relaxed if I allowed another horse in the arena with us, or just outside the arena fence. The more I allowed them to be comfortable, the less we needed the presence of the other horses nearby. The less we argued, the faster we progressed. We can now ride in the frontyard and up and down our street without concern. When I wasn't comfortable riding my horses because they were being silly, I lead them. In fact, you posted some good information about leading that you learned at one of Brent's clinics.

I have found that it also helps to ride with purpose and a destination in mind. We're doing something and going some place. For example: In my neighborhood, we would ride at a certain gait to the fire hydrant or a mailbox. Point-to-point with purpose. Relax at the point.

Hertha

I'd start the mat business on the ground

.

But you've given me a great idea. Once the horse is really into mats you can minimize them until they are little plastic lids that you can throw out like frizbees................

Should work on days without a big wind!!! and you could carry a heap with you

I would have been stuck with the idea of going out beforehand and laying them out where I intend to ride (after having done the same circuit about 10 times walking together).

I've found that the little solid rubber doormats tend to not blow around too much in the wind, in which case you could 'plant' some of them on your tracks and not have the hassle of putting them out each time. You could also plonk a rock on one corner to keep them in situ.

Keep us posted!!!

PasoBaby_CarolU

I was thinking you could take two mats, each with a rope attached. Throw out one and go to it, throw out the second one. When the horse steps off the first one, pick it up to throw out again after you get to the second one. This would be good training for trail class too. You might have to practice a bit and not have too heavy a mat, otherwise a miss would hit the horse in the head. This would be ME!

Hertha

Love it Carol!!! The Fishing Line Mat Technique for training on less windy days

The mat idea came from Alexandra Kurland. She said she could write a whole book on using mats and it wouldn't be a short one.

Super for developing horizontal body flexion. Since the horse is seeking to return to the mat, it learns to line up all parts of its body BECAUSE IT WILL NATURALLY try to find the most efficient way to return to its mat.

You can set up four or six barrels or biggish markers of some sort in a circle and put the mat in the middle. Walk with the horse around the barrel and head straight back to the mat. Try to keep your feet moving and your energy consistent as you go around the barrel together (horse on the outside, person nearest the barrel) so that the horse doesn't stall out.

This exercise works in-hand or ridden. It both slows down horses that want to take off because they need to slow down to stop at the mat for their click/treat, and speeds up the 'energy conserving horses' (plodders

) because they will be in a hurry to get to the mat and their click/treat. Magic.

Quite a bit of this is illustrated on my DVD & Note set: Walking with Horses.

sandra smith

If I can add my thoughts here. Riding to meet another horse has helped lots of horses I've known to feel confidant in riding away from home. Have a friend ride nearly all the way to meet you. Increase the distance your horse has to go to meet the other horse. Perhaps worth a try??
Sandra

bit

lol, another cartoon. Me and Eclipse in jail for littering plastic lids! Honest your honor, we were gonna pick em up!
I bought hula hoops that light up. Hawk used to love em! I'd look out my window at night, and he'd be playing with them in the play pen. Go out the next morning and they be hula tubes, totally taken apart! I miss Hawk.
Tony wants me driving the truck more, so I aims to please! We are doing a lot of clinics, and trailering this year. Ms. Eclipse and I will be a herd of two because we are going to be spending a lot of quality time together!

Clarissa

I think taking your horse away for one on one time is a good idea. Like going to clinics or trail rides, etc. You are still with your horse so it hopefully looks to you for leadership with unfamiliar surroundings & happenings.

It’s the one or ones left behind that suffer worse. Their routine is gone along with their leader(you) & or their herd leader & or friend, the horse you have taken away. If you leave someone else to look after them the routine is still different & they may react if they disapprove of that person. We have all heard those sorts of stories. My horses would suss out that person & play up accordingly! When I went away I tried to have a person learn the ropes but that usually failed so in the end I would set the place up so all that person had to do was throw hay over the fence & fill troughs. Much easier all round.

There have been times during the last few years when I would have liked to take Jude with me online when I rode Sonny out but I know Cassie has never been alone & would jump the fence to get to us with all that scenario conjures up. I can leave Jude alone as she is much older & been left in the paddock alone in the early days before Cassie entered their lives. But even then Jude usually had others in other paddocks around her like the stallions & their mares or horses there for retraining etc. However she is more level headed & wouldn’t try to jump out nor run around too much. Also she knows we WILL return soonish so she just stands at the corner & cranes her neck to peer over the crest of the ridge to see down the driveway. Also Jude is RBI & Cassie is LBEeeeeee.

I don’t have a problem with teaching horses to stay in their paddock alone for a few hours extending to a few days while you take the other out. So long as it is done right, gradually extending the time & distance from a few minutes down the driveway but in sight, extending it out from there. Rewarding the one left behind for good emotional stability by returning as soon as that horse relaxes.

But horses that have never done the separation training properly will usually fret themselves into a lather & never learn to be any better but may learn to be different by attempting to get out, damaging themselves on the way.

Cassie is getting to that age where she is starting to understand things better hence she doesn’t get quite so het up. Unfortunately there is nowhere here I can safely put her to teach her the separation lesson & nowhere she can’t gallop to in a few seconds where she can’t get some sort of view of us if we walked away down the driveway. She is so nimble & agile she would leap any fence here & not even an ‘on’ 5 strand electric fence will hold her when she is of a mind to be somewhere else.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Clarissa has an excellent point. Horses need to be taught to spend the night visually separated from their herd. It is best done at home, in increments, gradually building on the time. If you don't do this, on the day you finally do go to a clinic or haul the horse alone, you put it in a very stressful situation with no preparation.

My horse Diablo spent his first five years living in an open environment of pastures and shelters. No stalls, no separation, just a herd. When they decided to train him they loaded him in a stock trailer, hauled him to the training barn and locked him in a solid wall, solid door stall, and left him to deal with his terror himself. He became very claustrophobic and I'm not sure how they kept putting him in that stall after that, but I do know the first time I put him in a stall alone, he was soaked with sweat and trembling. So, it had to be pretty bad. A little time, a little work, and it all could have been avoided.

It's like trailer loading. The time to teach the horse is not when you HAVE TO load him or else.

bit

When I took Hawk and Eclipse down to Tony and Jenny Voughts, I spent three days with them. The Vought's introduced them to the herd, and they did just fine. If I take Eclipse to a clinic, we spend a lot of time together, grazing, and just hanging out. She is pretty attached when it's just us. Maybe because she's not "working" as lead mare. We have done a lot of clinics together.
I'm real picky on who takes care of horses when I leave. It's either Amanda, or a friend that I have really worked with. He's very anal about doing everything just right. Horses like him.
Riding with neighbor today, so Eclipse will be able to see her herd, as well as the next door morgans. She is in heat and quite attached to the next door stallion right now. Going to get out the hula hoops, do some ground play, and work on timing, feel and softness. 55 today!

Malcolm

This is an interesting thread which i have missed since I moved to a farm with no internet to speak of. It is a major key to horsmanship. I battled with this with a very difficult mare (a proper mad alpha bitch) which nearly had me beat until I read Buck's book when it came out. Interpreting it as adrenaline raising is not the whole story since he advocates taking the horse off to a quiet place with a juicy patch of grass away from the herd and spending time comforting it while it grazes.

I do this with colts when the herd has just about finished a paddock and ready to move to greener pasture. They know the human can do this for them but just do it with the herd bound horse first.

I guess treats in winter are necessary but its summer here and mostly to hot or wet to ride but perfect for leading a horse for a walk to greener pastures which soon enough can become an adventure of discovery. This really puts a spring in the horse's stride going out and even better, let the adventure lead from nice patches of grass to neighbouring horses for a little visit.

Of course you must make the horse feel safe and comforted by you since fear and curiousity are closely related. This is the key to the relationship and is easier said than done. Some horses are tougher nuts to crack with this soft approach and making them uncomfortable when they are around the barn is more necessary. For this school at home using Sandy Collier's Bag of Magic Tricks.

The article is free on her website but the DVD costs. She uses her theory of mental magnets and shows how slowly to break them down without scaring the horse. She reckons she spent 20 years figuring what Tom Dorrance and Ray Hunt meant to come up with this drill. It works, but before drilling I start by working with curiousity which is what Tom Dorrance on his deathbed warned Pat P not to knock out of the colt. This is so much easier when you have natural environment to explore with your horse and am enjoying the new place for that reason amongst many others. NH is harder with no natural environment.

Malcolm

bit

Malcom, where ARE you? Summer? That means you are Aus, or NZ? S. Africa? Always thought you were somewhere in Colorado, for some reason!
Ms Eclipse and I have been riding out of a neighbors barn, and that's going well. Road is a loop, and she is not sure where the point of going back is. She went right into a fast fox trot the first day, of which I said, "yes, please do!" She realized she was going no where she wanted to be, fast and slowed back down to a walk. Having a great time with liberty and round penning. It's weird, but she's a lot more attached to me because of the work we are doing.
Have also been playing with the herd at liberty, and Shuan is proving to be a pretty smart guy. Lots of try, very sensitive so the ask as to be tiny, with a real quick release.
I know that it seems this started out as a "problem" with my horse. I think what it has proven to be (and it always tends to be) is an opportunity for me to find a better connection with the herd.

Malcolm

South Africa. The language of horsemanship is universal but seasons are upside down in the south. You are on the right track when problems become opportunities. thumbup

Malcolm

bit

Malcom, you must have that babe magnet accent!

Malcolm

Well it is not as effective as Buck' drawl!