Hide your Hiney or HQ yields

Clarissa · Hide your Hiney or HQ yields

From the Remmer thread:-

dmcamelothills wrote:
Go ahead and start a new topic. I'm in on it because I'm totally new to this making a horse heavy on the forehand.

I'm very interested to hear from those that have the background on it....so I'm all for a "hide your hiney" thread!

Totally!!!! I have been interested in that comment as well. I got thinking "POOO!" AM I DOING DAMAGE NOW.....GRRRR. Crissie & Jiggies

OK I'll bite. There it is done now.

Let's talk about the biomechanics of HQ yields.

I'll just disappear for a while to another place & retrieve a heap of stuff I posted about certain aspects needing carefull attention!
:smt039

Happyappy98

Yay!!!!!! You beat me to it!!!! Rock on sister!!!!!!!

Horse Gypsy

It is not the basic move your butt over when I ask you to, Like porcupine game of driving game that is the problem. that is basic- everyone teaches that- Can you move your but, thank you- it is the teaching of the pivot that is the problem- putting all the weight on the front end, the front end not keeping time with in the gate, and the hind end moving that is the cuprit, because it creates a down hill moving horse who is on the forehand. If you teach the yield with the frontend keeping time with in the pace it isn't so detrimental but that is not what Parelli teaches., They pretty much teach slam on the brakes with you front end and turn and face me.

This sort of has a lot to do with what you destination is with your horse-

If you have an out of control horse and you disengage them to get some control so they don't get away form you - that is one thing- but if you are developing a horse for Dressage or any performance sport it is critical that they learn how to engage the hind end and use the entire back all the time-- shifting forward is counter productive to that and creates a bad pattern.

PasoBaby_CarolU

One of my good friends is a professional PF gait trainer. He doesn't like Hide the Hiney because when he goes to drive the rear end, which gets the horse to use it's rear end, a Parelli horse turns and faces him instead. It drives him nuts.

This, in my experience is the only problem I've ever had with it being a problem. And I guess that is because I only use the rear-end disengagement as early learning and only a small part of my program. I also do it in combination with front end yields, so I do back end, front end, back end, front end, kind of an /\/\/\/\/ down the rail. I do this both with reins and with carrot sticks.

I am thinking the real problem with Parelli horses being downhill is that the program never teaches students to engage the rear end and USE it as the big motor it is. A horse shouldn't look like the front end is pulling the rear end along behind it, but instead should look like the back end is pushing the front end.

On the ground I do a lot of half passing and shoulder overs with cross-under of the rear end to get the horse using his back end. In the saddle it is actually easier, you just start the rear end before you start the front end. You use energy in your legs and seat to start the rear end pushing the front end and THEN you pick up the reins and ask the front end to move. So many people pick up the reins to start the horse, so of course the front end moves first.

hollandhorses

are morons allowed in this discussion? When I read Carol's post I am drooling and want to leave my husband and four-legged family and move in with her to learn how to...well, everything. I'm such an amateur.

So excuse Miss Level One participating here...I know it is a drag to have to play with the slow kids, so I am going to lurk for awhile and see it I can come up with anything intelligent to ask or say.

Thanks for starting this thread.
I feel like such a newb

I've been dying to use that smiley...

Horse Gypsy

I personally wouldn't consider the level one yields to be the problem, It is more for me about asking a horse who is going freely forward to slam on the frontend and disengage- like level 3 cantering on line.
It only became such an issue for me because my horse has a heck of a time cantering on a 22 foot- and I couldn't figure out why- and it is because he never developed the ability to shift his weight back- so he would just get faster and faster and more and more emotional- so when I started to realize why this was happening and started to look at his posture and how to fix it- everything changed. So for me going forward with other horses- I am just not going to build that HQ disengage in so much- On K R second DVD in her series she goes into how to teach an HQ engage in a really simple way- not that different but I think she is really on to something with it- I have been trying to figure out how to do just what she does- worth checking out.

Clarissa

I've just been trolling through my old posts here to find the info I mentioned at the begining (I was so tired last night I had to go to bed after I started this thread!)

So firstly I'd like to say that the one BIG thing I've learned out of this whole HQ yield thing is just HOW DARNED IMPORTANT it is to LEARN EQUINE BIOMACHANICS ANATOMY FIRST!!

Put down your sticks & ropes & go learn this stuff first.

So when I get asked now about Sonny's before & after shots, I reply to learn those things first. Get a good understanding of just WHY these things happen & WHY they are so bad.

Here are some pastes from previous threads which includes 3 slightly different ways to teach the marking time style for HQ yield, each suited to a different horsenality perhaps:-

That particular yeild where the hoof twists around in the dirt puts unnecessary strain on the internal forequarter structure & sends the horse onto it's front end which causes a rough ride, deminished topline & bad saddle fit.

Teach HQ yield initially as a sideways task on a short line with the HQ making much larger steps than the FH so causing the horse to go round 90 or 180degrees. Then using indirect rein with hand 18" from snap, shorten the circle right down to cause the FH to move very little but the HQ to keep moving around half a turn. The inside front foot should continue to take very small steps like marking time.

To start the process you would allow a step forward to teach the marktime thing. Then slowly stop that forward step as they get more comfortable in the maneuvor. Actually I have also taught it by doing a very tight sideways circle & tightening it right down to the inside front foot staying in place, but marking time.

So I give the indirect rein, by holding it about 18inches from the clip, point & perhaps slightly lean towards the HQ (or in the early stages point the stick or touch with the stick), allow a slight forward movement with my body by giving some space so the foot lifts then block it by sticking my chest (boobs actually) towards the horses nose. If the leg doesn't lift I will also touch the hoof with my toe.

I can be holding the lead a certain way but be blocking with my body at the same time. Later in their development I wil push the lead towards them as a first stage of my body movement. Ken taught us to think of the lead as being a piece of spring steel that you can push on at your end & have the horse respond to at the other end. All directions (forward, up, down, back & sideways) can be pushed (communicated) down that piece of spring steel at one time.

The wrong part is where the horse has to keep the front foot planted in the ground & screw around in it. That puts way too much strain on the ribs/spine/scapula connections. The breast bone drops & pokes forward causing a pointed chest. The neck (backbone/spine/) drops down into the ribcage, making the angle of the scapula more pointed, hence sharp withers. So the muscles drop too creating the trianglular hole behind the withers. It also teaches the horse to get on the forehand due to having to keep the foot still as they screw around on it, so they lean on that foot too much.

The correct way to teach HQ yeild is to have the inside front foot lift & set down like marking time always turning the toe into the turn (same direction as the nose is pointing) while the HQ steps around in a circle. That keeps the inside hind foot stepping under the belly which keeps the balance at 50/50. When a HQ yield can be turned into a sideways circle without any effort, merely by changing your fingernails from facing up to facing down, you know you are doing it right.

Here's a link to a post which contains photos of Sonny before, during & after & shows what horses may look like at the different stages.
http://itsaboutthehorse.myfastforum.org/ftopic135-0-asc-75.php if it doesn't take you to the actual post, it is at the top of page 6.

There's a heap more 'over there' which I'll find during the day.

Also I am just about to post under the IMPORTANT LINKS topic a huge list of links to websites where all that one needs to know about anatomy & biomechanics can be found.

Happy reading & learning!!

Gallop On

Clarissa

This morning I have had a very deflating session with Sonny. After all my work to get him off the front end, today he showed me that I still have to work soooo hard at keeping him balanced. I have neglected a vital aspect of this 50/50 balance requirement.

At the beginning when I got him from the paddock he wasn't in a good mood which is a regular thing so I just do interesting sucking-up things with him until he comes around to my way & lets me into his head.

This morning he was just plain in a bad mood so I continued anyway as he will snap out of it eventually. I asked for small FQ then HQ yields just to join-up with him a bit. He just stood there resisting equally. I had each forefinger at ph1 on shoulder & upper neck for FQ yield & he resisted so I pinched his skin to do ph4. He's a L4 horse now he should respond to ph1 straight off no questions asked. He moved a bit so I asked for HQ yield & he gave me the old 'twist the foot in the gound' move!!!!! AHHHHHHrrrrrr bandhead

So we had a lesson right there & then about getting the 50/50 balance happening again. I asked for a step across infront of with the hind, then touched the front foot with my stick while holding the halter at the side knot. It took several goes each way for him to lighten his FQ enough to lift that foot to marktime & turn the toe to face into the turn.

That showed me something I had forgotten, but been told about by Ken many years ago. :smt115 That is, that unless you put a small backwards on the horse before asking for HQ yield, (ie to rock the horse back a tad)the act of moving the hind foot automatically sends the horse onto it's forehand. It's simple biomechanics. The horse has to learn to take more weight on the remaining HQ leg so the balance stays right. That requires engaging the gaskins & a little more bend to the stifle which lightens the front end. Putting a little backwards on the halter before asking for HQ yield does the same thing to engage the HQ.

I had to get Sonny to repeat the yield many times before he regained his balance, but I think it was important for him to learn to rebalance himself rather than me set him up first all the time. He has obviously been relying on me to get his balance right & therefore has not learnt that vital part for himself. I will practise it a lot so he gets it right first time & I see him make the effort to set up his own 50/50 balance.
:smt064 :smt023

Clarissa

Happyappy98

I LLLLOOOOOVVVVEEEE SONNY!!!!! I think you need to come over and help me and Jiggies! :smt101 :smt100 Where do I go to learn more of this?

Clarissa

Happyappy98

creekwood

Clarissa

creekwood

Thanks for the explanation. Anyway we could see some recent (2009) shots? Pretty Please?

Julie

level 2 clearly makes you do transitions for circling game when on a circle without HQ disengagement. I see it as a step you go through on your way somewhere else and only use it now for emergencies and teaching some sideways.

While we are at it I also do not use a 12ft line for circling and patterns. I will not have an unbalanced horse working on such a small circle as it also puts pressure on the joints and does not help the horse balance.

I use a 22ft then move down to 12ft when the horse has developed muscle and power and is able to carry himself.

Horse Gypsy

Some where along the line I started doing a lot of transitions with my horse on the 22' circle from walk to trot to canter to trot to walk- and that somewhat helped, but he couldn't maintain gate at the canter still, buy he could on the 45' so I knew it was about balance- so I started adding in back ups and that helped a little- but this was right before KR book came out- and he started to give me some of the Let loose posture in those transitions, and from my Dressage background I knew that was a good thing- so when KR book came out I just started building the let loose posture into everything and that made a huge difference- it turned out he was not aligned - so I learned more about getting alignment, then I just worked on getting him to shift his weight back, IE back up 2 steps and then ask for the canter and he is a really responsive horse so after a while cantering wasn't such a big deal- but is not his strong point- he has some old injuries/joint things and I think that has to do with it- more the reason to try to get him as straight and strong as possible. Now he has injured himself- so I probably am going to give him most of the spring and summer off.

Julie

exactky - if they cannot balance on a 22ft go up to a 45ft. Also if they cannot maintain canter balance, go for quality not quantity by repeating transitions and adding a stride at a time

kristie

Horse Gypsy

I have started doing all my game overs as an engagement instead of a disengagement by letting them come to me by running backwards- even with my Baby- the only time I don't is if I have somehow lost control like with a green horse. This way seems to actually build suspension- especially with my half arab- who has a lot of suspension anyhow- but she gets even more lofty when I call her in this way- she almost looks like she is doing Passage- but she is quite the show off and quite a horse in general- she was definitely a find!

Chablis

Clarissa

Clarissa

kristenhorseluv

I've been thinking about this alot because I was thinking well what the heck do I do then if I don't use that as my come in cue or whatever. I realized when I play I don't actually ask Oscar to come in when I bend over to disengage him I just ask him to come in, so bend over means game over, good job, come here, it doesn't mean anything having to do with his hindquarters. I don't do it with any driving look. I'm not sure if that makes sense.

Chablis could you explain more what you are talking about the neutral flexion with leg added?

PasoBaby_CarolU

Julie

Again how much do you need to do the squeeze game. I do the games, move on to bigger and better, occasionally pop back to recap. Last time I did squeeze was on 22ft line to get my horse ditch jumping - which took 5 minutes. its a tool, not the result surely

PasoBaby_CarolU

The squeeze game is not a problem unless you force your horse to stand on a front foot and pivot on it, twisting it. If you allow your horse to turn around and face you as is comfortable for the horse, you won't injure your horse.

But, you still need to teach the horse hind end engagement. You can do that on the ground by doing half passes on the ground where the horse steps under himself.

Clarissa

Here are 2 more photos taken this week 6wkes since the previous set of photos were taken. I haven't done any HT during that time to see whether it causes permanent changes to muscle & carriage. I had previously done HT more or less constantly for over a year & there were some good changes.

It's plain to see it is only temporary change. So HT needs to be continued. All the recent online work I've been doing hasn't keep the muscle changes in place that the actual method of HT does which is interesting.

I also think it depends on the individual horse. Some horses carry themselves better than others, just like people. Sonny likes to slump as you can see in these photos. It makes it very hard for me to ride him correctly. I have over 2" of shims & folded air sac in the front half of my theraflex to sit under the middle to front part of which ever saddle I'm using & it is a very unstable ride!

Here he is rotating his shoulders to stand over his front feet with his back legs merely there for looks. His off hind is not carrying any weight in this photo. It often feels like that too when I am riding him. No wonder he gets sore in the sacrum & down in his stifles.

After 2wks of almost daily riding his topline is shot. His hamstrings are also very weak again too. I work so hard to make him use is HQ but he fights me constantly. If you watch my freestyle audition or the freestyle progress video on youtube you can see him actively resist engaging his HQ. I have to stop the exercise & MAKE him be biomechanically correct. I also know he uses that as a way of avoiding 'work' so I have all but stopped correcting him the slow way. I have been using that method for a few yrs with no good result.

I have recently started riding with spurs which he has a deal of respect for although he hates them. I ask for a move the slow way & if he resists I use the spur to get the correct move. I then ask again & if I get a good try without the spur I leave that move alone & go onto something else. I don't school him with spurs, they have become my ridden phase 4 for just fast moves or better HQ engagement. But as with the other savvys for LB horses, I do go straight from ph1 to ph4 with only a 2second interval. So all up a session of that intensity might last 5mins max. I take them off then & go for a general ride to graze outside my front gate.

I will start HT again & ride with spurs for some elements of training & see if that causes a recovery of his topline.

Horse Gypsy

Clarissa,, just a thought after looking at your pics-- Have you watched if Horses could Speak? IT is a video from the same author of Tug of War Classical vs modern Dressage.. The reason being that he goes into detailed explanation of how the back muscles and skeletal system operate. I found it pretty helpful. He speaks of the fact that the long back muscle is not a weight bearing muscle and needs to be able to swing freely when you are riding otherwise horses muscles break down. I would think that if you could learn to accommodate the back swing in your riding he would improve and you wouldn't have to go back to HT. Just a thought.

Clarissa

You are right horse gypsy regarding those muscles & it always concerns me that I'm inhibiting his movement. The saddle never seems to be right, my position never seem quite right these days & on it goes.

Regardless if he didn't get so tense & tight & act up so badly his back/sacrum, etc wouldn't hurt half as much. Interestingly the other afternoon I was grazing him along the dirt road out front of my place & at the end of the single lane track a truck had done a 20point turn to turn around & go back along the road. It left a great sandy patch from the front wheels twisting from lock to lock. I was able to work Sonny quite had with roll backs, spins & slide stops in that sand without so much as a tail switch or bad ears.

Which is why I think his problems are not totally back related. Because I rarely ever get to work on good footing these days I wonder if there are other things going on that I haven't learned about yet. Perhaps he hasn't learnt how to let his feet twist on the ground or something. Usually a person wouldn't work their horse like I do on grass so perhaps I'm just asking too much for that type of work.

It doesn't explain why he is how he is for all the other riding. I do have recent footage of him cantering around the pen with good ears too so it depends on his mood half the time.

I heard of those dvds via this forum & not sure where to get copies although I think there is a link in here somewhere.....(if I could ever afford them with my finances the way they are)

Horse Gypsy

Gerd Herschmann is the guy who did the video. HE is the author of a few different books-- but I know one is Tug of War. I have a similar situation with my horse-- and looking at it from a muscular skeletal perspective helped me-- that and trying a lot of different saddles. Too bad you live in AUS-- because horseflix is great for renting these pricey videos-- It pretty much is the self education that you don't get from Parelli. I never ride on sand either. I think horses do better out in the country side personally than in some fancy arena-- but that is me. I have been having a lot of revelations about where me weight needs to be in order for my horse to turn the most efficiently as possible-- I am not sure my explanation will do it justice right now however.
I did hill therapy with my horse and his back completely changed and then right when I was starting to think about riding him he fell into a ditch and hurt his hock so he has been lame for a few months but getting better. The interesting thing is that his back still looks good-- no riding. I have read that it takes one year of no riding for the muscles to rehab themselves if they were damaged or just never developed- seems extreme- but it may be the truth. I am leaning toward giving him the whole year with no riding especially because of this whole injury thing-- but I may start him on the ground again once he is 100% sound again. So I guess I will see.

whisperingwindfarms

Thanks to Karen Rohlf, I now have a clue what this thread is about. Sorry - my biomechanics education has been lacking.

Anyway, her DVD #2 called Developing Mobility has a really good demo in it about the difference between Hide Your Hiney and HQ Yields. My local instructor will be thrilled to know I get it now!

Blue Flame

Horse Gypsy

Julie

Just come in on this one. I have to say that i am not into HT - great if you have a well balanced horse with no problems - otherwise - lets take a horse with a problem and make it have the same problem up and down hills.

Clarissa - may be wrong but IMO your hourse is lacking basic topline and muscle definition. there is nothing in front of the withers nor underneath. it may just be the pics though - not sure. Needs to engage and use the back end much more than at the moment to change the muscle! if you have done HT for a few weeks and that is the result, then maybe look elsewhere.

Sometimes i think parelli does not have the answer for everything, i have just used a pessoa on ahorse with a similar problem who is now nicely muscled up after 3/4 weeks work. he was short behind and stiff, now working great!

Clarissa

Julie

Thats the problem I had! i hate to say it but diagnosis was too much parelli and being a lazy type he had worked out he could do everything without engaging back end and made his back long and sore. It was not right for this particular horse anyway. I have put him in a pessoa and bit to engage his back end. He is just getting to the point where he can balance now with help and engage the back end. You can really see his heave line muscles going, his front of hocks are going i front of the vertical and in return he has a lovely soft neck and is really getting to carry himself - will try and get some pics of him online and on pessoa.