Hoof lines/ridges - pics - supplements?

Horseshoe Creek · Hoof lines/ridges - pics - supplements?

Okay, as promised, here are some pics. The first two are from about 2 years ago and show both the condition of his hooves and his mysterious heel problems - mostly in summer but has a reduced occurrence during the winter, as you'll see in the later pics. No discharge, not too tender to the touch but made him very sore on black rough dirt. The green was koppertox I was trying.

First, where we started... horribly flared hoof walls and flat soles.

The next pics were taken today - he was trimmed 10 days ago. These pics were taken to show the ridges in his hooves and a question for supplementation. The ridges/lines have been there since the day I got him years ago. Hay has been tested but will be retested. No grain or sweet feed, and is now on a vitamin supplement as per vet's instruction. You will notice the new growth since he has been at the indoor arena - change of feed and regular feedings of the vitamin supplement maybe? Time will tell I guess? There are a few small lines in the new growth but not nearly as bad as the rest of the hoof. When not at the arena, he lives on pasture.

I apologize for the bad angles - I thought I was getting them right until I put them on my computer. I can get better ones if needed. His frogs and heels have really widened since being ridden in the sand arena. Frogs on hind feet still a bit tender, right in the middle, slight reaction to pressing on the hind digital cushion area. Oxine soaks about every 2 weeks.
I am reluctant to bring the heels down more because of the heel tenderness. His hinds kept popping the bars up so we left them a bit longer.
He has shown no lameness (other than heel soreness on summer dirt). Any constructive tips/critiques are welcome.

Right front

Wire cut as a yearling results in a constant growth of scarred hoof.

Left front

Right hind

BAD ANGLE

Left hind- this is the hoof where there is tenderness right in the middle of the frog. I did notice a lighter spot a while ago in the frog - a corn?? It is too tender to get the centre cleaned out good with the hoof knife. I might try some Anbusol on it next time (as per vet).

Like I said, I will be happy to get addition pics if needed. Thanks!

Chris

Newfman

Has your Vet ever biopsied the frog and bulb tissue? Might discuss it and have it cultured, and checked for spirochetes as well.

The second one marked Left front, that was today?

jokersmama

With my untrained eye what is standing out to me is the infection. I would be soaking with Cleantrax

The heels still look a bit long and forward to me.

Have you tried the triple antibiotic ointment and Clotrimazole mixture for the thrush?

It looks like it may be more than just simple thrush though...it looks like the heel bulbs are involved too have you asked your vet about it?

Horseshoe Creek

Never thought of a biopsy. I talked to a vet a couple of weeks ago about temporarily blocking the nerves in his hinds to open up the frogs for treatment better but she suggested Anbusol instead to numb it.

The vet I took him to 2 years ago about his heels, just gave them a passing glance, didn't even pick up the hoof, declared them the worst he's ever seen, then recommended shoeing and the vitamin overload. My faith in the vet knowledge around here is not great.

All pics were taken today.

Thank you.

Chris

Newfman

I understand, and hear that a lot. You should hear what the Vets say about us!

It is just a thought. I don't know if I would call a Ve out just for that, I don't know what your financial situation is. If you find a Vet interested in thinking a little outside the box they can check for the proceedures on line on the Vet Forum.

Just a suggestion.

The fronts look like they are struggling a bit. I too think the toe is long and the heels are forward.

If the fronts are off, you may find that it affects the shape and wear of the hinds. Though the hinds may seem to be 'the problem' it can be caused by or exacerbated by the front. They will all need attention. There are some infections that may not be cleared up by the trimmer/farrier bag of tricks. That is why I would consult with a good Vet about a Biopsy. You may have to clear that up before any real significant changes can take place.

Just my thoughts. It would be my initial direction if it were my own horse.

edited for clarity

Gillies_mom

I would be taking a look at the horses diet, to me those lines suggest something is really wrong, is the horse kept on grass, if so you could try cutting all grass out and replacing with hay, plus your vitamin feed. Are you supplimenting minerals too?
Kate

Newfman

I haven't spent any time in the Nutrition Section of this forum, but you may want to cross post there as well. My guess is there are several Nutrition folks over there that aren't interested in all this hoof stuff, but would certainly enjoy an opportunity to assist with the Nutrition issues. As Kate points out, the rings are indicating something, and nutrition is a good place to look.

It (may) also have the benefit of keeping the two issues focused and easier for you to follow as it progresses.

Or not.

Horseshoe Creek

Thank you, that would be an idea.

PasoBaby_CarolU

I will leave the farrier advice to the trimmers and farriers, but do want to weigh in on the nutrition advice. As you know I have an IR mare who I almost lost last year to serious laminitis. You can trim a horse like that all day and not help it (much) because you need to treat the metabolic issues that are causing the problem in the first place. The hooves are a symptom, they are not the disease.

I'd suggest going to the Yahoo Cushings Group, going over into the file section and read about the different metabolic problems and how to determine which you are dealing with. THEN make your appointment with the vet. Be prepared to - at that point - know more then the vet does about what you want in blood tests. Print out the sheets. If your vet won't work with you on it, get a different vet. I'd also order the blood tests BEFORE the vet comes, so they can look up which tubes to pull and know the protocol for the lab. Some tests require spinning, freezing, and shipping the serum that day. Some require special tubes.

If you are like in my area, my regular vet is a good ranch type vet. He keeps his costs down and does good general care, the type most ranchers want. He doesn't delve into costly lab work and tests because most people don't want to try that hard to help their horse. If you need to, look for a better vet.

Newfman

Good points Carol. I might add, if performing the test for Glucose and insuline, elect for the "Combined" Glucose and insuline. They are considered to be much more accurate, according to Vet Specialists. It costs more, but getting innacurate results isn't worth anything. I think it will be in the $115 (US) range if memory serves. I am not sure what These things cost in Canada. Too bad you don't have socialized Veterinary Medicine!

Horseshoe Creek

Thanks Carol, I will do that. Information is power.

The vet's around here are basic cattle vets or small animal vets. Most of the time if Grant takes a cow in for something, he ends up doing most of it. Good idea about telling which blood tests I want before they come out.

Chris

whisperingwindfarms

If the first CBC comes back within normal ranges, it may be worth the $75 to get a thyroid panel done. Around here, they don't do those unless specifically requested. We thought my mare was IR or pre-Cushings and it turns out she is hypothyroid. The symptoms can be similar and some of the treatment (diet management, etc.) is the same but the prescriptions for them are different, i.e., Pergolide vs. Thyro-L.

jokersmama

I would also ask about canker.

Horseshoe Creek

Thank you so much you guys. I will phone the vet tomorrow and discuss getting those tests done.

Today, the frog on his left hind (the worse one) shed and although the frog looks a tad immature, it is certainly looking healthier than the old one.

I am going to get more pictures tomorrow, taken outside to double check the coloring on the soles.

Chris

Hank

My best guess for your horse is that there is some kind of problem with the liver--it would explain the melon colored hooves and the tight ridges, if the liver is not detoxing the body adequately, the buildup must go somewhere--kind of like jaundice, only not quite that bad.

I'm going to BEG you not to try anything different with this horse's trim until you figure out the internal issues.

Ruth Hamilton

Horseshoe Creek

Ruth, that's my plan - to find out the internal issues first. I do have a Liver Detox from Omega Alpha I picked up at an Agricultural show a month or so ago.

I can't thank everyone enough for all your suggestions. I feel empowered again.

Chris

Mandy'sMarty

I am inclined to agree with Ruth's concerns. However, I would be looking for possible toxins that are overwhelming the liver's natural ability to do its job.

It's hard to really see from the photo's, but I wonder if the eruptions on the heel bulbs from 2 years ago are abscesses where he was eliminating toxins. I have seen milder abscesses on my mare's heel bulbs---where she was probably detoxing the pesticides that got into her fresh water supply. I watched them slowly bruise and erupt but never saw any discharge. She was tender but not lame.

If he were in my care, I would be exploring possible environmental causes for what I call "pre-laminitis" or "sub-laminitis". The stress rings on his hooves concern me. I would be looking for possible chemical toxicity in his diet, such as perhaps pesticides in his feed (applied at the mill), or in his hay.

And I have a suspicion that he may need a good prebiotic to feed the probiotic organisms in his gut. I would start there before any mineral supplementation. He may have the proper minerals in his diet now but not able to effectively assimilate them. For this I use Equipride, a product that Leah recommended to me. Mandy's hooves improved noticeably when she was fed this.

PasoBaby_CarolU

I think I would want to know exactly what is in the "Liver Detox" and not give it to him until AFTER the blood tests. Until you know what is going on it is dangerous to shoot in the dark. Several years ago I killed my favorite cat, giving her a Vitamin B shot to improve her appetite when she was diagnosed with diabetes. She ate so much she threw up and that put her system into shock and a coma. She never came out of it and died 2 days later, despite IVs and full ICU care.

So, I would be very careful feeding anything at this stage. Start with a full blood panel and go from there.

Horseshoe Creek

We live on the prairies and I suppose there is always the chance some pesticides wafted over from a neighboring field but we are probably at least a mile from anywhere that would be spraying (by machine, not air). I was talking to the owner of Omega Alpha in November, explaining about Spike's hooves. He gave me samples of Liver Detox, Kidney Detox and Anti-Inflamm, which he recommended for possible laminitic episodes. I haven't used them yet because I wanted to read up more on them. I was also talking to a woman at another booth (the competition) from horsesense herbs and she was raving about how knowledgeable in natural medicines this man was - like a Chinese herbologist. Anyway, the Liver Detox has extracts of Milk thistle, Dandelion, Burdock, Artemesia capillaris, Gardenia jasminoidis and a few others.

There is just so much information out there! And I should have been specific and stated I wouldn't be giving anything until after the tests. When he is at home, there is free choice Diatomaceous Earth and loose mineral available. Other than that, just hay in winter and pasture in summer.

Chris

Horseshoe Creek

A quick update. I didn't take new pics of the hooves today as I confirmed they really are a bit discolored. But, a slight scrape with the hoof knife is reveling much whiter sole underneath so part of it may be from the sand arena. The worst frog, the one I was so pleased it shed, was today a raw mess in the central sulcus area. A quick call to the vet and the advice was diluted iodine/betadine soaks, gradually increasing the amount of iodine/betadine over time to help dry up the heels. She is going to look into the details of doing an insulin/glucose test and get back to me tomorrow. It's not something they do much around here.

There was a farrier there today and after "grilling" her on her experience and watching her do a couple of horses, I had her take a look at Spike's hooves. She managed to clean up the edges of the frogs and a bit out of the center of the frog as well, so hopefully the soaking will have better results now. She also balanced the heels on the left hind and right front as they were off a bit.

My Cavallo boots - sz 4s - are way too big for him now so I will have look at someway to wrap his hinds so he can do some walking in the arena for exercise. Boots are non-existent around here so I'll have to order some in (and he is one of those hard to fit sizes).

Does anyone have any tips for diapers/gauze & duct tape that will stay on a hoof for more than a couple of hours?

Thanks again for all the information - I'll keep you updated.

Chris

Moonmare

Hi Chris,

When Sarah Belgian was going through her awful abscess time, I used carpet remnants and padding on her feet. I cut the carpet and pad to a hoof shape and put the pad first, then the carpet with carpet side to the hoof. I duct-taped them in place. They would stay on a couple of days in a 10 acre pasture before I had to re-tape. Because the underside of the carpet is so sturdy it can be reused several times. If you have a carpet store anywhere near you you'll find remnants and scraps as well as old samples for free.

Edited to add Sarah's shoes:

Horseshoe Creek

Thanks for the pic, Megan!

At the moment, he is Pete's Goo'd, diapered and duct taped with his too big Cavallo sz 4's on. I knew those big boots would come in handy! He is not lame and he needs to keep up with his exercise so I'll try your pad idea and vet wrap around his heel bulbs and duct tape over it. The boots are too clunky for riding.

I did see on the Easy Boot site, that they are offering the gloves in a 3.5 and 4 now so tomorrow I'll measure his hooves to see if that is an option to protect his heels too.

I have decided that the round bale that is in the pasture with the other horse/donkeys here at home is the last one they'll be getting this winter. I'll go back to square bales so I can control their portions and movement better. We're ALL bound to loose weight! :lol:

Thanks again.

Chris