| Archive for It's About The Horse The Free Forum for those Doing Parelli - and a whole lot More! "Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful." Xenophon (430-355 B.C.), |
| whudson |
Hoof mechanism...Found this video....http://www.swedishhoofschool.com/ Scroll to the bottom of the page |
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| Kim Cassidy |
I'm off to go riding before the sun comes up, but just a quick comment.
How an any of his stuff be taken seriously? That foot is severely compromised, since it is missing the fetlock joint, the cannon bone, blood supply and all the ligaments and tendons. What I do see is a foot in need of trimming, shod or not. I haven't watched the whole thing will do so when I get back. I'd take this info with a grain of salt. Want to measure mechanism. Go put kids paint on your horses foot and have them take a step or two. Measure the difference between when he was standing and when a mark is a walking foot. Let me know how that works. |
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| Newfman |
I'm not sure what that was supposed to say.
Looks like a pretty practical experiment on that video to me. The principals are all there. Well explained. A little exageration for explanation and clarity. Whudson, for as long as I have known you here, I have found you to be certainly smart enough to gain the information out of the experiment that was performed. Go with it. Is it perfect science? No, but practical and applicable. . .yes. |
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| ForgeNHammer |
Sweddish hoof school is junk science. | ||||||||||||
| whudson |
 ....I just thought it was interesting. Not necessarily right/wrong good or bad.
Sorry guys didn't mean to upset anyone. 
Touchy perhaps?
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| Kim Cassidy |
Hmmm I don't think anyone is touchy, but we have seen his nonsense for years now and it is dangerous to a newbie to think he is correct about his shoe theories and peripheral loading theories.
One of my all time favorite videos by him is this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTtusllpeM4 Desert Thrush, on wild mustangs no less.... 
I like how he says he walks up to the "wild" horses and picks up their feet, this is one funny video. Those horses are lamintic from people feeding them Alfalfa in the desert and they are OBVIOUSLY used to people. Incase you've ever actually seen a wild mustang you'd know you can't waltz up to them and pick up their feet and snap video and photos. My mustang has been off the range for almost 2 years with no training. Picking up his feet has taken training and practice a few times a day. The material is loony, as are his videos, Junk Science indeed, exactly right Nick. |
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| appellativo |
I'm also very leery of the whole story not being there for that video
Well at least he didn't screw up on the 'slow feeding' concept. I don't disagree with the fact that thrush is more pervasive that a lot of people think, though, and can severely compromise the hoof function. |
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| ForgeNHammer |
I'm not offended! Sorry about that. I'm just sayin
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| calatar |
OMG that is a riot....can't stop laughing...."wild" my ass lol.
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| Newfman |
Yup, but hoof mechanism and peripheral loading, isn't junk science as it has been the basis of study by many a Phd. So, yes, his displays are a bit whacky, but he has the right idea, and his hoof mechanism examples are relatively accurate and. . .vivid.
Still a good place for someone to learn something about hoof mechanism. |
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| Kim Cassidy |
What Phd's? How many, I've only heard Bowker "talk" about it. Even he states that there have been no scientific research about it. Besides which, go look at Pat Reilly's photos and videos of a barefoot horse trimmed by Pete Ramey. IT is peripherally loading despite Pete removing all the wall from making ground contact 
Horse was sore too. double
They are NOT accurate. Vivid and exciting for some (obviously) but they prove nothing except that some guy cut most of the body parts off and tries to prove a faulty point. If some want to make that science, well there you go, P.T. Barnum wasn't a poor man, was he.
I'm not sure I follow the logic. Why would anyone want to learn false, misleading or incorrect info? As for the slow feeders, that was not his idea either, it is all just common sense folks. He does promote it and sell it, good for him I guess. But with all his other mis-information I don't want to promote or give him any money. |
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| appellativo |
Can you provide a source/location for the Pat Rielly/pete ramey photos/video please? I googled with no luck...
It's so hard to keep at the forefront of the mind that nobodys perfect or has all the answers. We're all just trying our best to find our way. "There's so much bad in the best of us and so much good in the worst of us that it ill behooves any of us to talk about the rest of us." |
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| Newfman |
Again with the blanket statements, unfounded reports, and name dropping. Nothing but criticism, and nothing to add.
Yawn. . .
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| appellativo |
Ya'll can disagree but be sure to use nice phrases such as 'I strongly disagree' rather than 'What a crock of S*&%" or else I'll have to moderate accordingly. Thanks 
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| Newfman |
'tis easier to go on a vacation. Too much BS makes me edgy.
Ciao. |
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| Kim Cassidy |
Erin: Here is one video on the barefoot loading. http://www.youtube.com/user/reillyshoe#p/u/13/UoWg3YN1Ljc If you look at his channel you'll find more of his studies and how horses land. I've attached the picture of the foot that is used in this one foot study. It comes directly from Pete himself. I am not talking bad about any. Someone offered this up as something to use as a teaching tool about hoof mechanism, Nick and I both are saying In OUR Opinions this is Junk Science and not valid as a teaching tool Ove maybe a lovely human being, I have no idea. I'm not talking about him perosnally. I'm talking about the information he is presenting as fact, when it is no such thing. Many people believe that shoes are evil and it is due to this type of promotional, vivid material. Someone has to continually speak up for the horse 
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| Kim Cassidy |
You, Newman, are a riot Me with the blanket statements and unfounded reports, too much, just too much.
As for name dropping? What do you mean? I know Pete, used to (before I started shoeing and became the barefoot Pariah) talk to Pete on a regular basis. Don't consider it name dropping, just presenting FACTS
Have fun on vacation |
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| Newfman |
So, can you expound upon what you believe this link is telling you?
It says very little if anything to me as it is not supported by anything that I have found. Where is the criteria for the test? What is the condition of the horse? where are the x-rays of the hoof? |
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| appellativo |
I too need more information. How long has the horse been being trimmed by Pete? I see the video of what is happening as the horse lands, but I fail to see the point of it. There is simply no words saying anything. Neeeed input...INPUT!
you said, "Besides which, go look at Pat Reilly's photos and videos of a barefoot horse trimmed by Pete Ramey. IT is peripherally loading despite Pete removing all the wall from making ground contact Horse was sore too. double (rolleyes)." We need more information about the horse. It looks like it's recovering from some severe hoof trauma several months ago. Are we throwing out the whole idea of trimming the foot for recovery and saying it can only be shod? What are we saying? If Pete trimmed a horse and it was sore, based on all I've heard in his materials, he would have tried something different the next time, in the meantime doing boots and pads or pads in cast. Was that not done on this particular horse? I just need more info. It might be clear in your mind (what your statement is, your intentions etc); your job is to make it clear in those minds who you are communicating with
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| Kim Cassidy |
I'm sorry Erin, it is so hard to put it all down in writing, wanna talk on the phone It would be so much easier.
I'm not saying we shouldn't try and remedy pathologies. What I'm saying is: Stop trying to trim a foot perfect when it is impossible due to environment or genetics. Stop dumping a thin soled horse on its sole. Understand how a particular horse uses its feet in its particular environment Understand what actual trauma looks like Stop saying feet shouldn't be peripheral loading, when feet seem to want to. Now as for Pat's study. I have two sides of the coin, Pat's version and Pete's version. Obviously this horse had been out of shoes for some time (no nail holes present). This was from over a year ago, if I remember correctly Pete had been trimming it for 4 months or so. I'm just wondering if putting a horse on its sole like the photo pictured above and like others I've seen of late is harmful to most horses. It looks like the foot is still peripherally loading in Pat's short video sequence. If that is the case, isn't the corium and circumflex artery being pinched/crushed? Shouldn't we (farriers, trimmers, etc) figure out if this trimming that is so often promoted actually causing more harm than good? Some horses seem to do okay with this, but many more struggle. In Clarissa's case, I have come to believe that no matter how much trimming and removing of flare you won't get the foot to be tight. Her environment dictates it so. I speak with confidence in this matter as I've lived that particular nightmare for more years than I care to remember. One of the MAIN reasons I moved to Arizona was for Finnegan. Crazy as it sounds, I wanted him to be healthy and I knew it would never happen in a wet, humid, buggy environment. I've merged two photos of his Left Front into one photo. The left side is Feb 2010 and the right is today July 2010. Nothing in my trimming or shoe placement has changed but look closely at how different the foot is. No amount of toe chopping would have changed his foot back in NY. That is my other point and its been hashed out quite clearly on the other thread. Like I said, call me it would be easier to discuss
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| Newfman |
And it looks like he still has a few months to go. How is the horse now? Did Pete get to finish the job? It would not be appropriate to take a picture in the middle of a rehab and make a judgement. What was the final result?
This is a public forum. It would be, and is pretty disrespectful, to make unsuported claims aginst posts that people have put time and thought into, and then offer your insights to individuals via private phone call. I personally find it insulting.
Maybe that is what i missed with Clarissa. I thought South east queensland would be hot and dry...kind of like Arizona. Not wet, hot and humid like New York. Not being from or having visited there, I had to google the climate history. Maybe it is incorrect?
So don't try? Just accept mediocrity? That isn't what people want to do, and it isn't why people read, study and research. It may be what they have to accept on an individual case, but that is not the foundation they are trying to establish in their understanding of hoof care. Not what I would recommend.
I still don't see how there is any indication that the photo of the foot you posted, that supposedly Pete (Ramey?) trimmed, but only for four months, and he thought it was a good hoof to have Pat (Reilly?) pressure test, is actually the hoof that was tested. could you lead me to that information please? What a poor candidate. What was the purpose of the test? It may very well be, but it is just a chart with no reference as to what they were looking for or what horse it was. Where do I find the rest of the information? If your concern is that Pete cut all the wall away, exactly how is the horse peripherally loading? Do you and I have a different understanding of the term?
No. Does it get crushed with shoes on? There would be no difference. It is well protected. **edited for clarity and substance.** |
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| appellativo |
I sincerely believe that people can have different viewpoints and be civil towards the differing side (or innocent bystanders trying to learn about it).
Kim apparently feels very passionately about what she's trying to communicate. Of course I highly encourage everyone to state references of what helped them form their observations/opinions, so the rest of us can gain from them. |
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| appellativo |
Stop dumping a thin soled horse on its sole. --Kim
Under what circumstances? What are we trying to do when we 'dump a thin soled horse onto its sole?' is it a founder case? If you are trying to rehab, don't you still have to grow in well connected wall and when you start to have enough (using pads in cast or pads in boots as needed for comfort, and is anyone saying NOT to make the horse more comfortable in the process?), then you can build sole thickness? Is there an argument being made that this cannot be done with some horses barefoot and it CAN be done, rather, with using a shoe (epona, steel, I don't care what kind)? I'm feeling around in the dark here. What is the thought process completely? in my peabrain at this time, for a founder case, it makes more sense to offload the wall a bit so there's more even pressure on the other parts, not just the compromised laminar connection. Horses in pain supposedly respond positively to offloading the wall, right? Stop saying feet shouldn't be peripheral loading, when feet seem to want to. --Kim In that pic above, there is no WALL to be loaded anymore, but the foot is still loaded around the 'edges' of what is coming into contact with the ground. Is that bad, is it good? The horse is sore for what exact reason? Is it all to be blamed on the trim? (it's possible, but is it possible that its not?) From what I've learned so far, I really like the statement I don't know who made it..."God didn't put a part of the hoof down there that wasnt meant to come into contact with the ground." To me that means it's all important, none more important than the other...peripheral/wall loading, sole loading, frog loading, bar loading.... what's there to argue about lol |
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| Kim Cassidy |
I don't know Erin. This is all based on my experiences and those that I call Peers and Friends. I think it is an It Depends type of thing on how we should treat each founder case. But in no instance do I think that this is an okay trim for any horse. Even when going barefoot only I wouldn't crimp the CA or the corium which is what is going on with that foot. I would say that a small majority of horses can handle it as they already have a really thick sole and no distal descent. I also believe that some horses need that Lamellar Wedge and that no amount of trimming will get rid of that stretched WL. Only the use of shoes will do so. I haven't seen too many horses respond positively to the removal of all the wall. I know that changing the environment and sometimes diet helps along with trimming to reorient the new capsule around the coffin bone. So is it that drastic trim or is it all the other stuff that is taking place?
I have no idea what caused that founder and I don't know how long the horse was sore. I did have from both Pete and someone else at AU that the horse was sore unless it was in a deeply bedded stall or boots. I guess it depends on what research you read and what you believe if it is good or bad. I hear from the BUA that peripheral loading is bad bad bad and most of it comes from shoes. Yet here is a horse trimmed by a prominent trimmer and the data from a few steps is showing P.Ling. IF the horse had some hoofwall, then the tissue and the bone inside would be vaulted off the ground. Since it has all been taken away it is now directly on that surface pinching that tissue. I'm not saying anything, I'm asking people to think for themselves, I'm just presenting more data. I happen to have had access to stuff that wasn't made public on forums, I'm sharing it.
Ha, I agree except people are emulating the trim pictured above and harming horses. People are emulating that trim and feeling bad about themselves because for some reason their horse isn't a gravel cruncher after 3 years of struggling. Nor will their horse ever be, since it doesn't live in the desert
I'm not arguing, I'm pointing out flaws in Dogma. Great harm is being done to horses in the attempt to fix something the horse doesn't need fixed. That is why I keep trying to refute Junk Science. I am guilty of believing and practicing it at what time as well. The problem is the more I know the more I realize what I don't know. I've moved past the BUA stuff and I want more. I would like to help people bypass the mistakes I made, but I understand we have to learn from trial and error. I'm sure I wouldn't have listened to "ME" 5 years ago either. But I'll keep trying. Talk to you soon. |
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| Kim Cassidy |
Thank you Jaye Perry....
http://www.horseshoes.com/farrier...fequinefoot/shapeofequinefoot.htm |
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| whudson |
It is very difficult to learn anything at all about hooves, I tire of trying to surf through all the "ego". Too much energy for me.
Don't get me wrong I have learned soooo much on this forum and Newfman...I have learned a lot from your posts, pls keep posting. It is quite annoying though that as soon as anybody tries to be cival and help others learn, they are shot down. Is that necessary? Kim Cassidy... I'm wondering why you cannot just present your own point of view without trying to tear other points of view apart and let people learn and decide for themselves. I like to hear all information, weigh all sides (presented in a sensible manner) and then go with my gut feeling. Once I see the "ego" involved, I just shut off everything else that person has to say. They may have something important to say but I for one will not hear it....I suspect there are others that feel the same.
Kind of reminds me of a time a short while ago....
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| appellativo |
thanks whudson. I've addressed it in private already though
Kim, what is BUA? One thing I do recall from Pete's videos is that he says that if you KEEP offloading the wall on a horse that doesn't need it (ie once it has grown a decent amount of well connected wall/laminar connection, and some sole depth,) that you WILL cause lameness and/or keep the hoof from improving. In any case, thanks for explaining further. I suppose I'll probably never take on any pathological cases but I still will strive to understand all I can about them... |
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| calatar |
Maybe I'm missing something but Newf seems to push Kim's buttons just as much as Kim pushes Newf's. I agree I would rather see "more civil" posts but it takes two to argue... I don't think the finger can be pointed at a single individual, JMO. | ||||||||||||
| Newfman |
Post has been edited.
Most of what i have to say has been written in previous posts. I recommend the search button.
By that train of thought, my fingernails should be allowed to grow, because they want to become long and twisted. It just doesn't meet any sort of logical explanation. Hoof wall grows. It can get quite long. It can get long enough to take the rest of the bottom of the hoof out of play. That is when trouble begins. The load should be shared by all parts of the bottom of the foot. Excess hoofwall and or peripheral loading devices, preclude this. This isn't actually
Now that that is done, how does any of this actually dispell the principal of hoof mechanism? |
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| Kim Cassidy |
Barefoot Uber Alles, I have an article on my website http://www.clickandtrim.com/index...w=article&id=70&Itemid=77 I think the term was coined by either Rick Burten or Tom Stovall.
Yes I believe he does say that and I love it I just wonder what happens IF you don't ever grow in a new connected wall, no matter what you do.
What if what we do causes more disconnect?
Hey you never know, I started out just wanting to make Finn happy and look where that has stuck me 
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| Clarissa |
Wow! This is really great. I love the way these 3 topics that are currently very active are causing people to really think about what is going on under their horses. I’m glad the photos I post (whether they show good or bad things) are contributing to a general thought school.
As a group, we really need this to happen & force ourselves to be considerate of each other’s views because we all have something to contribute, because as the saying goes:- no hoof, no horse! Like humans, every horse is different & it’s circumstances are different & it’s controlling human’s circumstances are different too. In an ideal world the horse people would divide off the most suitable country & call it ours so our horses could have the most ideal situation to run in. However that is just a pipe dream so we have to make the most of what we have at hand. That includes intellectual resources like this forum & it’s contributors. Newf, SE Qld, particularly the coastal strip as far inland as about 100k is generally wet tropical to subtropical with usually quite clear delineation of seasons, making soils wet in the wet season & hard dry in the other 3 seasons. Mixing that with Australia’s ancient & deficient soils makes it hard in most circumstances to provide a horse with the most ideal living environment. This property where I am is in the 50inch rainfall zone & has a combination of pea gravel on a quartz based ridge, soft non-abrasive sandy scrub soil & wet patches in the low parts that never get really muddy, all with an average to good grass covering. The horses traverse the whole 16acs daily. When I moved here I noticed with-in a month that all horses changed foot shape with no intervention from me. It’s when Sonny’s previous trim style really started to fall apart. It just wasn’t right for this place obviously. This soil obviously doesn’t help to support a horses hoof at all. Ok this is what I am deciphering from the combination of all the info on these 3 topics that are active concurrently & I’m posting it here since this seems to be where the input from all contributors is gelling:- I’m thinking here mostly of my situation with Sonny’s feet but I’m sure it applies to many others too, who are doing or have done a form of barefoot trim that is not working. Regarding ‘dumping’ the horse onto thin soles:- My understanding is this seems to happen when the soles stop being concave enough to include the walls in the load bearing process which is contrary to most popular belief. Therefore the mechanism of load bearing begins to break down. The sole corium (& to some extent the digital cushion) gets pounded by P3 & trapped between that & an unyielding sole with each step. So the hydraulic mechanism, that helps the sole corium work, fails to be able to hold P3 in correct alignment & function. I can modify the exterior shape of the hoof capsule to give that ‘mustang’ appearance, but I still have little control over what is going on inside. By trimming off the walls, ie ‘dumping’ the P3 onto the sole corium thereby causing it to fail, I inadvertently increase the amount of space inside the hoof capsule allowing P3 etc to slosh around too much (as is evidenced by the toe callous on Sonny’s front feet that Kim pointed out in photos). So when Sonny got sore after a trim it was because his sole corium & perhaps digital cushion were bruised? Eventually it would cause mechanical founder? To recover proper load bearing mechanism where walls & sole (& of course frog) share responsibility, I actually need to let Sonny’s feet grow longer walls which might allow concavity to begin developing again. Since, in this individual situation, the soil here doesn’t help support good hoof function, I have to create that support via longer walls (or boots/shoes)? On other soils that might not be the case? Once proper load bearing mechanism is recovered I can shape the outside of the hoof in the desired way? I might be mixing things up here a bit, but am I generally on the right track? No-one, or their method, is wrong here, (Leah, Newf, Kim, etc) it’s more that there are so many individual factors to consider for each horse, it is very hard to generalize. In Sonny’s particular case he needs to grow a longer hoof capsule before I try to create that desired external shape. In other words his hoof capsule has gotten too short to work with productively. Later on as the sole thickens, the bones might rise up through the capsule to their proper place, at which time a shorter more upright & stronger hoof capsule may result? Other horses or horses in other countries would have a whole different set of circumstances to consider. 
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| Clarissa |
I just looked at his channel & found this pair of videos. This one is numbered 0197 & shows the horse hardly able to walk. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvmwFKRJKak&feature=related The next video numbered 0198 shows the horse able to walk. If you look closely you can see betadine on his hind fetlocks where he's had his tendons cut to allow him to walk. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Fv49b_XCXo&feature=related That horse is FAR TOO heavy for those little hooves. It's no wonder he is so lame. 
What a way to save a horse! |
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| appellativo |
In the second vid, I see a slightly better gait, but I also see ears back, tense eyes, and very tense nostrils, along with him playing with himself, maybe in an effort to get some distraction/endorphine relief in a painful situation. Poor guy.
I was lying in bed this morning thinking of the reillyshoe video of the peripheral loaded Pete trim on the sore horse, and I was wondering what footing the test video was done on. How accurately does that footing represent the footing that the horse is normally on, or could be put on (pea gravel typically supports a hoof best.) How would that test video look if done on pea gravel? The poster hit it on the head when she stated that there are so many variables that it's impossible to even talk about this subject!!! LOL If BUA is used to denote a line of thought, that's cool, but if it's intended as an insult (the poster's intent and context would reveal this), then that would make people mad and defensive (as it did when people called Kim this) so let's keep that in mind. I think it will take a few years (decades) for a balance to be found in the general public's mind between shoeing and barefoot. The fact finding mission shall continue.... |
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| appellativo |
OMG, the 'you might be a BUA' is hilarious (see above link and scroll down) | ||||||||||||
| Kim Cassidy |
UGH that is beyond effed up! He looks like a halter horse that has seen way too many steroid injections to make his "muscles" look even bigger. That horse should be PTS! I wonder if his state of being is due to that fact that he is a stallion. How sad 
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| Kim Cassidy |
Thanks Erin
I just went back and read that, haven't in a while, it is funny isn't it
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| appellativo |
yeah pretty much. I think a lot of what's on there has a really extreme spin on it but anything taken to extreme is ridiculous. | ||||||||||||
| Kim Cassidy |
Actually, almost all of the You Might Be are direct quotes from acquaintances who are barefoot only trimmers
One told me she would never put shoes on a horse and in the same breath told me about a client of hers who lives in Softrides 24/7 and on mats for the past 3 years. Another barefoot trimmer makes his barefoot horse walk in the desert and he said he wanted to stop because the horse was in so much pain, but he knew if he forced him to keep walking eventually the feet would toughen up. I know quite a few strasserites who have told clients that there horse wasn't sound because: a. They used blankets or b. They kept their horses in stalls. While I did try to put a funny spin on it, sadly it is all based on what I've learned in the past 9 years from barefoot only folk. So as much as you or I would like it to be an exaggeration, it isn't. You need only go watch Ove's video from start to finish. I did again this afternoon and am appalled at what is considered a good finished trim. Have you watched it all? When did it become okay to force the horse to land on the frog only? When and how did it become acceptable that the frog is the primary landing area for a horse? I rewatched all of Pat Reilly's videos and the only horse I see using it's frog is the jumping horse.
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| Newfman |
Just so the record is straight:
BUA is a hate based term. BUA is a term that is used in a derogatory reference, to all of you folks that believe in keeping horses barefoot as a primary course. That do not believe that shoes are harmless footwear. It comes from the Forum: http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/index.php The Rick Burten being referred to is pretty much the king of being rude and disrespectfult to any barefoot professional or "believer". You can join that forum, but if you are a "BUA" you have access to, I believe it was only one of the forums. It keeps you corraled and makes it much easier to find by the mob that will ridicule you and try to embarrass you. Easy to do when you are the only one in an entire group. It is acceptible behavior over there. The anti-barefoot belief goes beyond science, or even reasonable understanding. It is pure bigotry. If you don't believe me, find out for yourelves. You can find good information there, but you have to sort hours of crap. There are only a few barefooters there, and they have been there awhile. You have to be able to kiss the royal butt, and even then you still get treated poorly. I highly reccomend you all join that forum and try discussing barefoot hoof care. It is quite an experience
Sorry, just wanted to set the record straight. Since I was just given the underhanded insult of being referred to as a BUA, I thought you should know the real point of reference. Rude and deceptive. You know all this because your hero is Rick Burten. You just lied to Appelativo and everyone here. Nice try with the latin explanation. Seems pretty innocent, no? Let's call a spade a spade. Those of you that believe that shoes should be the last resort or that proper barefoot hooves are far superior to shoes are "BUA". It is basically, used in a derrogatory fasion in the same way that a racial slur is. It is a hate based term, and she knows it. |
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| learningthedance |
Yes it is. Although "Kim", aka Ridingallday, aka Irishcas (on the farriers forum), likes to refer to some of us here as "rabid BUA's" as referred to in her post. http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?p=206041#post206041 This experiment was interesting. The one you asked about so you could try to arm yourself with amo to fight off the rabid BUA's. Not sure exactly what it was supposed to show and how accurate any of the information really is. That's allot of stuff put on the bottom of that foot to try to achieve whatever it was he was trying to achieve???
Kim, in all honesty, I think you need to drop the insults. It's bad enough that you come here throwing them around, but to flame people behind their backs on other forums is really immature. It sure does show your true colors though. I called it right all along. |
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| appellativo |
I was just reading a Toys R Us email today and I noticed it referred to kids with handicaps 'differently abled.'
We live in a society today that at times goes out of its way to make everyone feel loved and accepted, and at other times, is cold and heartless in the way that it treats others. We need to decide what sort of environment we want to create here on our forum. What's it going to be? Over at SC we were prevented from saying anything negative at all about Parelli/Parelli Inc and the direction it was going in. So, since we didn't like being muzzled, we left. Carol created this forum so that we would have an avenue of speech that was not restricted. However, I'm pretty sure I speak for most when I say we wanted this forum to be open but still also remain friendly and accomodating, and flame free. Since there will always be disagreement, that is fine, but the mood of constant bickering/banter is not welcome here. Eckhart Tolle explains in his book The Power of Now that we are a Being and that we have and use our mind as our most powerful tool. The mind categorizes, labels, judges, and defines. He refers to 'ego' as the mind, being given free rein, and describes how incessant thinking without Being can become a disease. Disease happens when things get out of balance. Identification with your mind creates a sort of screen of nonacceptance of what is without judging, and can come between you and yourself, between you and your fellow man and woman, between you and nature, between you and everything. This screen of thought creates the illusion of separateness. It then becomes easier to attack others, people, ideas, nature, etc. The mind becomes completely selfish. Wars result from this takeover of the mind, without Being. Anyways, its a great book. There is a stage of drama in the world and the drama carries over into the barefoot discussion. Or....not. Let's quit the namecalling, accusing, attacking, etc. Newfman's right, BUA is meant to be derogatory, and while Kim may be right and there may be people who take it to the extreme, that's not anybody else's business nor does it give anyone else a RIGHT to attack others. It's still a free country and animal owners are still free to try to do what they believe is right for their animals. Everyone is entitled to their own journey and anyone else who is going to attack and deride someone else for being wrong is not going to do any mind-changing of those individuals in that light. I would personally like this forum to remain open and mature, adult, respectful. That precludes any snide sideswipes from here on out. Dig deep, everyone, and find the place of allowing others to their own journey without belittling, attacking, criticising, etc. If you fail to rise to the occasion, you may be asked to edit your posts, and if they are not, they will be edited for you. We aren't children though so I'm pretty sure we can handle it. The world is a crappy place because people are crappy to each other so let's own up and make it a better one. |
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| Newfman |
Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:51 pm Post subject:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I took my mustang for a hand walk today, he is no where near ready for riding, so we go for walks through the neighborhood. Today I took a few pix of his footprints as I thought it pertains to this discussion. It relates to hoof mechanism as well. I walk on dirt roads and in the desert so have some soft sandy terrain and some hard packed terrain. I took some pix of his left front foot print in both soft sand and hard. I've attached them. Look at how the foot "loads" depending on the terrain. From the Toe First landing thread. Those very same pictures were in her post dated in 2007. You may be right Apellativo, BUT, as you can read from her post, this was and always had been a personal attack. Full of lies and deceit. The style of her attacks and critisicisms of my posts were exactly the way that that forum treats us "Rabid BUA'ers". Technically, a BUA'er, will never agree to shoeing. I have stated many times, I am not against shoes, just the over use of them. They are a last resort to me, not a first. Ultimately, the horses comfort will be the prevailing guide. The hoof that she showed in the example of the "Pat versus Pete" BS, wasn't even the real hoof that was shown in the pressure test. Exactly why am I to be concerned about being sensored? Because I call a spade a spade? There is no excuse for what she has done (AGAIN). Maybe she will grow up and become an adult someday, but in the meantime, I have no room or time in my life for her childish pranks. She has lost ALL credibility. Caveat Emptor! XXXXXXXXXXXX LTD< If I weren't already hitched. . . .
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| appellativo |
It's totally ok to call a spade a spade. Just remember the old phrase, "Just the facts, ma'am." That's all we're asking. And if someone else goes below the belt, don't fuel the raging fire, because the ensuing response will just brings down the whole tone of the discussion even more. It's like, don't demean yourself, know what I mean? It doesn't have to be anybody's personal mission to 'protect' everyone else from a source's misinformation and venom, especially if it raises your blood pressure in the process
If the shoe does not fit, don't wear it, if it does, put it on and keep on walkin...' oh and if there is a reasonable explanation or defense, the other side can present 'just the facts again,' without personal attack. It takes two to fight so just conduct yourself such that you're not the one to be observed as behaving ridiculously. Or I can lock the thread. (I'm violating that parenting book I just read that tells me, quit warning all the time! Quit threatening! Just act, and let your kids learn from reality and consequence!) |
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| Newfman |
Sorry, it's all the military background surfacing. I'm just covering my friends backs.
She imploded. I have nothing more to point out. As Neil Young says, Damage Done. Hmmm, think I'll get out the Ol' Taylor guitar and play a little. . . Ohhhhhh Ohh The Damage Done. . . . . . Great fingerstyle guitar song. Don't forget the hammer on on the B note then slide the E two frets. . .  Sorry, couldn't resist.
I know, gloating is ugly. |
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| appellativo |
Dare I direct the discussion to whether/what condition is the corium/circumflex artery is adversely affected? | ||||||||||||
| Clarissa |
OK well now that the arguing seems to be over & things are settling down a bit, could you (Newfman) go back to my last post in this thread, read it & comment please? I asked questions that I would like reasonable answers to.
I need to know if I am interpreting all this info in a constructive way. I have worked through everything on this thread, the 'toe first-heel first' thread & what has been posted on my thread about Sonny's feet. I might have a slightly oblique way of looking at things but if I am on the right track I can go away & work on it!
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| appellativo |
Ooooh, here is the picture of the hoof that was shown in the video as peripherally loading. Looking at the pics, the hoof didn't have much of a choice, though did it?? LOok at the back of the hoof (or rather, what isn't there!)
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| Newfman |
Anytime you have distal decent, you have the possibility of affecting the circumflex vein. In more severe cases, the circumflex vein can be displaced and lay over the distal dorsal aspect of P3. You can see it in venograms. By that point though, the bloodflow to the dorsal venous plexus has usually been quite diminished and backs-up above the coronary band.
This is another reason not to accept distal decent and flat feet as ok. In laminitic feet, it is important to provide sole support, not just to protect the sole and volar dome, but to try to relieve the 'pinching' pressure at the coronet. To get circulation freed up. The down side is, there is a lot of damage to the veins in the dorsal hoof wall, and they bleed out. Because of the pain, the body naturally wants to increase perfusion, so it just becomes an even bigger mess. The hoof doesn't expand, so the pressure just builds. This increases the tearing of the lamina more and the coffin bone is more prone to rotation. As it rotates, it descends down and pinches off or displaces the circumflex vein. That is why, in acute laminitis, I believe in boots and pads to give solar support, and help prevent or reduce the tearing moment of the coffin bone from the lamina, and encourage movement buy providing a place for the horse to walk around. Also making sure the hoof is in proper shape. A peripherally loaded foot in this case is a disaster, that has found a place to happen. Ugh...phone. Gotta' go to town. Clarissa, I will have to get back to you. Sorry for the delay. It isn't to big a deal what you are doing. But as I posted to you before, if you need an extended booting period, it is 22 hours on, 2 off, for cleaning, and drying of the hoof and boots. I personally, use dessenex medicated foot powder but there are a variety of powders you can use to keep the feet a little fresher. Sorry to be short. . Ciao! Not so much with capsular rotation. But, you will apply pressure there and it is important to correct it. |
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| Clarissa |
That's a horrible looking hoof!! It's got contracted heels & the poor old frog is being squeezed between them. Surely that's not a good example?
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| appellativo |
I appreciate the analysis of any hoof because something can always be learned from it. Sure it doesn't look pretty but it still tells us something
I don't know what the guy doing these analyses is trying to say but I'd be interested to know if/when he puts together some sort of book or DVD. |
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| Newfman |
Last check as i go out the door. .
Pat is pretty brilliant. I'd like to tell you more when i get home, or tomorrow if time allows. I am hoping to go to a huge eventing (event?) in the Kennett Square PA area this fall. I'm going to try to get Pat to let me peek in his Lab at the New Bolton Center. How friggin cool would that be!!??!! I'm still going to try and have him do some controlled studies on "healthy" barefoot horses. Just haven't found the right buttons 
G-day?!? |
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| Kim Cassidy |
I sure would like to know why YOU can make all kinds of personal attacks and yet I get moderated and chastised when I've done no such thing. You are calling me a liar and a fake, pretty strong words. I have owned my Mustang for all of 3 weeks. The pix I just put up of his self trimming feet and his footprints were just taken when I said they were. I did not live in Arizona in 2007, I lived in New York. So please share with me my duplicate photos from 2007 and explain how that is possible. BTW, I have the bill of sale from my purchase, it is dated 6/16/2010 and it has the name, description and markings of my Mustang.
I have never made a personal attack against you and my criticisms were of some statements you and others have made in regards to heel first landings, peripheral loading and shoes. Nothing about you, I don't even know who you are.
If you ask Pat and he deigns to tell you, you will know that the feet are one and the same. Pete Ramey shared that photo of the trimmed foot on a forum. Pat Reilly went to Auburn University and worked with Dr. Deb Taylor and her students. That foot in the ppt slide is the same (look at the hoofwall markings) it just is a few weeks past that original trim.
What exactly have I done? I've tried to point out some inaccuracies in the trimming world.
What pranks, what in the world are you talking about?
How is this not a personal attack and why is this being allowed to sit on the forum? I originally signed up on this forum under a username I like because I didn't want everyone to know it was me. I never signed one single post as a fake name, nor did I deny who I was. I just never said who I was. I checked the forum rules and nowhere did I see that you have to sign your posts with your real name. This is ridiculous. |
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| Kim Cassidy |
Just to clarify further and point out where the deceptions are actually happening.
Here is my one and only reference to The BUA, it was on page 2 of this thread and it was not used towards Newman or anyone by name! I only referred to myself as one time being a BUA.
Newman wrote:
What is rude and deceptive? Even Erin saw the humor in my article. Rick Burten is NOT my hero. He is a friend, I've had many a conversation with him in writing and on the phone and we finally met at the IHCS this year. Hero, nah, I don't have too many of those. Bono, Mark Twain, Michael Jordan ermmm can't think of any others at the moment But certainly not one single one in the hoofcare world :D
LTD - I am a farrier so I get to post on Horseshoes.com where ever I'd like. It isn't a conspiracy to attack the barefooters by allowing them to post in one section only, it is just to keep down the insanity. As for this
Please explain how posting on a PUBLIC forum as myself is doing something behind someone's back Just be thankful I didn't tell The Boys which forum I was talking about!
I asked Pat legitimate questions because I'm interested in the data he puts out. I don't agree with all of it, nor do I think it is a balanced study but it is still info I can take away and use. I've told him all this to his face, so again, not saying anything behind anyone's back. I am not attacking anyone, I'm just questioning certain trim practices and pointing out how my real world experience leads me to believe something else. Once again, I've not told lies, hid anything or attacked anyone personally on this forum. People don't like hearing things or believe in critical thinking so they turn it around and make it personal. I've not done so. I'm done talking about this. Back to hoof mechanism if you have anything about trimming, shoeing, mechanism you'd like to talk about please carry on. If you want to talk on horseshoes.com please go to that forum and state your case. |
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| appellativo |
OK I took out the bull comment. But I'm leaving everything else so that the world can witness the behaviour/claims, etc and consider them for themselves and come to their own conclusion about who is right or wrong, if they so choose to try to figure it out. I am however locking this particular thread. If someone else wants to start another one without the war, you're more than welcome
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